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Is there any method ? Where a poster who asks a question that has been asked a thousand times before for example Shoes or boots , sleeping bag or silk sheets be referred to the search engine to read older posts .Dear all,
Over the last few weeks, some of the mods have done some detective work on how the forum software work, and we have discovered that we (the mods and me) have not been using it in the right way.. let me explain.
When a user has done something that we (the mods and me) consider breaking the forum rules, we might delete that post and add a short notice that is sent to the person posting about why this was done. The user interface for the mods does not clearly say that this message with the explanation is sent to the user, but it is implied (it is a bit vague, but that is how we interpreted how the system worked). We have now, after some very good detective work by some of the mods, found out that this message is actually not sent and that the user does not get any feedback for why the particular post was deleted.
This is of course not good.
This might have lead to the user making the same mistake again (not knowing/understanding why the first post was deleted), and we (mods) thinking "here he/she goes again even if er have left him/her know that this is not allowed". This can, as you can see, escalate and end up in points being given and users getting angry. All because of the miscommunication... we thought users were informed of why things got deleted, but they did not get any message.
So... I wanted to let everyone know that I am sorry for this.. and from now on we will make sure that a user if properly informed when he/she steps over the line, hoping that this will not lead to a repeat "line-crossing".
As someone said in a recent mod-conversation we had: "Let's optimize for happiness on the forum". This means that we might be strict and delete some things, for the good of the forum as a whole, but at least we should let the user know why this was done.
Stay safe everyone & happy camino planning!
Ivar
Some members already do this, refer the op to the search engine, but in the spirit of the forum I think its a good thing to give the information again, especially to a new member. A fresh debate always gives new info to everyone and it might not be easy for new members who are not tech savvy to negotiate the forum at first. As the forum versions change and are updated we are also learning as can be seen from Ivar's post above.Is there any method ? Where a poster who asks a question that has been asked a thousand times before for example Shoes or boots , sleeping bag or silk sheets be referred to the search engine to read older posts .
Thanks for all the invaluable work the forum does Ivar .
This can, as you can see, escalate and end up in points being given and users getting angry
I agree with this, something fresh and new is added to questions which have been asked many times. I could say to the question of 'why do people ask the same question many times' it has been answered many times just check the forum SearchSome members already do this, refer the op to the search engine, but in the spirit of the forum I think its a good thing to give the information again, especially to a new member. A fresh debate always gives new info to everyone and it might not be easy for new members who are not tech savvy to negotiate the forum at first. As the forum versions change and are updated we are also learning as can be seen from Ivar's post above.
The short answer to this is no, this was not the reason.Without knowing individual details( and not wanting to) several well known and posters have left or been deleted in the last few months, if this has arisen out of this situation I hope they are encouraged to come back on.
Thank you (and @Kanga later) for the confirmation. But I'm still curious about what page shows points assessed a member. I assume it is somewhere in a member's pages and not publically available.We normally delete any posts that refer to or quote a deleted post. Moderation 101
Thank you (and @Kanga later) for the confirmation. But I'm still curious about what page shows points assessed a member. I assume it is somewhere in a member's pages and not publically available.
Thank you. I have seen the point balance accounting before but I don't remember if my balance was more than one (I early on posted a bullring picture (but it wasn't of a bull fight)). It may have showed up because of that and otherwise was not shown if no points were assessed. Or maybe it showed up with a total of 0. At any rate I don't see any points on my profile page now.On the 'Forum Rule' page it says: If you see that any of your posts has been moderated, please check your current Point Balance on your profile page (under your avatar).
That page is quite old so maybe it is different today?
I have received such messages in the past.Yes, @Rick of Rick and Peg that was quite likely the case. Hopefully now you will get a message telling you the post was deleted because it referred to a deleted post - or something similar.
When members choose to leave the forum, or participate less, they don't usually give detailed reasons. While the software issues are not the key reasons, poor communication is rarely a good thing, as Ivar points out above!This might have lead to the user making the same mistake again (not knowing/understanding why the first post was deleted), and we (mods) thinking "here he/she goes again even if er have left him/her know that this is not allowed". This can, as you can see, escalate and end up in points being given and users getting angry. All because of the miscommunication..
That page needs updating. Members can't see the warning points, and that is one of the reasons we need to be more careful in communicating themthe 'Forum Rule' page it says:
We normally delete any posts that refer to or quote a deleted post. Moderation 101
Dear all,
Over the last few weeks, some of the mods have done some detective work on how the forum software work, and we have discovered that we (the mods and me) have not been using it in the right way.. let me explain.
When a user has done something that we (the mods and me) consider breaking the forum rules, we might delete that post and add a short notice that is sent to the person posting about why this was done. The user interface for the mods does not clearly say that this message with the explanation is sent to the user, but it is implied (it is a bit vague, but that is how we interpreted how the system worked). We have now, after some very good detective work by some of the mods, found out that this message is actually not sent and that the user does not get any feedback for why the particular post was deleted.
This is of course not good.
This might have lead to the user making the same mistake again (not knowing/understanding why the first post was deleted), and we (mods) thinking "here he/she goes again even if er have left him/her know that this is not allowed". This can, as you can see, escalate and end up in points being given and users getting angry. All because of the miscommunication... we thought users were informed of why things got deleted, but they did not get any message.
So... I wanted to let everyone know that I am sorry for this.. and from now on we will make sure that a user if properly informed when he/she steps over the line, hoping that this will not lead to a repeat "line-crossing".
As someone said in a recent mod-conversation we had: "Let's optimize for happiness on the forum". This means that we might be strict and delete some things, for the good of the forum as a whole, but at least we should let the user know why this was done.
Stay safe everyone & happy camino planning!
Ivar
Is there any method ? Where a poster who asks a question that has been asked a thousand times before for example Shoes or boots , sleeping bag or silk sheets be referred to the search engine to read older posts .
Thanks for all the invaluable work the forum does Ivar .
Also, one doesn't have to read or comment on every thread. Just read the ones that interest you.I think its important to remember that we were all "inquirers at square one" at some point and thankfuly there were patient people here and elsewhere that not only tolerated our newbie questions but took them seriously and thus nurtured our interest in the Camino.
Be patient and answer the question. It is, after all, the first time this person had asked the question. Every forum user wants a conversation. That's why they're here and not on Google.Is there any method ? Where a poster who asks a question that has been asked a thousand times before for example Shoes or boots , sleeping bag or silk sheets be referred to the search engine to read older posts .
Thanks for all the invaluable work the forum does Ivar .
Be patient and answer the question. It is, after all, the first time this person had asked the question. Every forum user wants a conversation. That's why they're here and not on Google.
I've mostly been oblivious to all this, and now when I go looking, there doesn't seem to be any such place. Where is the points balance?On the 'Forum Rule' page it says: If you see that any of your posts has been moderated, please check your current Point Balance on your profile page (under your avatar)
See my post #17, last paragraph.I've mostly been oblivious to all this, and now when I go looking, there doesn't seem to be any such place. Where is the points balance?
I read that and misunderstood that you meant general points balances, as opposed to one's own.See my post #17, last paragraph
I think that was a good natured but casual statement of intent. Something that seems a good reminder but not to be taken literally.I am not sure what “optimize”for happiness means?
Now that we are aware of the shortcomings of the deleting system as explained above by Ivar you should now be informed why a post has been deleted, if not or if you do not agree with the delete decision please contact a mod or Ivar by PM.Please, explain, do we get a badge or a sticker for collecting points?
I have gotten a couple of posts removed. one for a humorous cartoon post, which did not refer to any particular politician. Yet, I have seen on the same thread others cartoons which were previously posted from a specific country that was not removed? I could honestly care less about points, because, I know when I post that I am not intending to injure or insult anyone, but the process is sometimes confusing?!
Thank you for all the Work done by you and the Moderators.Dear all,
Over the last few weeks, some of the mods have done some detective work on how the forum software work, and we have discovered that we (the mods and me) have not been using it in the right way.. let me explain.
When a user has done something that we (the mods and me) consider breaking the forum rules, we might delete that post and add a short notice that is sent to the person posting about why this was done. The user interface for the mods does not clearly say that this message with the explanation is sent to the user, but it is implied (it is a bit vague, but that is how we interpreted how the system worked). We have now, after some very good detective work by some of the mods, found out that this message is actually not sent and that the user does not get any feedback for why the particular post was deleted.
This is of course not good.
This might have lead to the user making the same mistake again (not knowing/understanding why the first post was deleted), and we (mods) thinking "here he/she goes again even if er have left him/her know that this is not allowed". This can, as you can see, escalate and end up in points being given and users getting angry. All because of the miscommunication... we thought users were informed of why things got deleted, but they did not get any message.
So... I wanted to let everyone know that I am sorry for this.. and from now on we will make sure that a user if properly informed when he/she steps over the line, hoping that this will not lead to a repeat "line-crossing".
As someone said in a recent mod-conversation we had: "Let's optimize for happiness on the forum". This means that we might be strict and delete some things, for the good of the forum as a whole, but at least we should let the user know why this was done.
Stay safe everyone & happy camino planning!
Ivar
Good question.Is it possible to quarantine any offending posts over deletion? As with your lengthy explanation, there may be a lot of good information contained in a post that is all lost due to as little as a phrase.
Please, explain, do we get a badge or a sticker for collecting points?
I have gotten a couple of posts removed one for a humorous cartoon post, which did not refer to any particular politician. Yet, I have seen on the same thread others cartoons which were previously posted from a specific country that was not removed? I could honestly care less about points, because, I know when I post that I am not intending to injure or insult anyone, but the process is sometimes confusing?!
Ivar and mentors, I am not sure what “optimize”for happiness means? Seriously, and respectfully, does that mean to keep the customer happy? Do we not respectfully, discuss many topics, with very different perspectives?
There are many unhappy posts....about numerous subjects. There is much affirmation, and sometimes respectful confrontation. These responses are not necessarily optimized for happiness. However, as long as they are done respectfully are we not better serving the Camino community?
I do thank each member for the time you give to assisting me and other members.
It has been enormously helpful and inspiring.
I don’t know if having various moderator opinions expressed on these topics will be helpful or confusing, but it will at least serve the important purpose of letting you know that we are not a uniform monolith, we are different people with different sensibilties operating in different time zones. So when one post gets deleted, and a similar one doesn’t, it is likely a combination of those factors that explains what may appear to members to be inconsistencies or preferences. Of course, the report button is always there for a member to express these concerns — for instance, Marbe, you could have privately reported those undeleted cartoons and explained what you saw as an inconsistency. I don’t see that as a challenge to my integrity as a moderator, it is just a potentially helpful observation that may allow us to see things from a different perspective and help us to achieve a uniform “touch” with so many different challenges. We don’t always agree with member reports, and don’t always take the action the member asks for, but I think I speak for all of us when I say that we really appreciate the reports and benefit from having so many more eyes on the ground than if we mods were the only ones keeping a look out.
For me, optimizing or maximizing happiness on the forum means not that we hope everyone will agree with everyone else, but that we hope that the comments and disagreements will be respectful and will not challenge the good faith of the poster. I am much more likely to be “happy” if I can learn from compassionate responses why people may have misinterpreted or disagreed with what I said than if I am told repeatedly that I am ____________ (fill in your favorite negative adjective here).
And Marbe, I think but am not sure that you are asking about the purpose and effect of collecting points (if I am just rehashing familiar ground for you, sorry). Points are given when a member seems to ignore cautions and warnings that he/she is crossing the line and is violating the rules. If you “collect” enough of them you will be put on moderation, which means that a moderator has to approve any post you want to post for a certain period of time. If you really collect a lot of points, you will be banned for a month or some other time. The apology that started this whole thread was because we realized that most members never learned that they had received points and never knew that we were trying to caution them to rein in their language and abide by the rules. Lack of communication breeds misunderstandings and conflict, as became evident when we took a look at the warning system and how it operates.
Having a thread deleted is not necessarily going to result in points (we don’t keep track, but I will bet that the overwhelming majority of deleted posts do not trigger pointes). But the converse is usually true — if you get points, some of your posts will have been deleted for rule violations.
I really don't know the answer, as I've been around mainly in Covid times. However, it is not a big number.Do you know, approximately, how many actual responses get deleted per day in non-covid time?
I don't think it is enough to bother with this. Most deleted responses are short and not-so-sweet, and anyone who reads the rules can figure it out. If a member "loses" a longer response, they can just ask and we can provide it.Is there any way a program could be be added so that when any deletion of a post is made, it is automatically returned to the sender?
Not big at all. Sometimes people imagine it is bigger than it is, and the rumours take off! Then we do have a bigger problem!How big is the "problem"?
If there are only a few longer deletions, now and then, how much time would it take to simply copy and return those few posts in PMs to the senders? Rather than the mentor trying to correct an essentially valuable post, why not return it to the sender? Would it not place the focus on the sender to correct it if the sender thought it was worth reposting?I really don't know the answer, as I've been around mainly in Covid times. However, it is not a big number.
I don't think it is enough to bother with this. Most deleted responses are short and not-so-sweet, and anyone who reads the rules can figure it out. If a member "loses" a longer response, they can just ask and we can provide it.
That is pretty much what C clearly said, if its a long post the author is asked to repost and their post is PM'd if requested.If there are only a few longer deletions, now and then, how much time would it take to simply copy and return those few posts in PMs to the senders? Rather than the mentor trying to correct an essentially valuable post, why not return it to the sender? Would it not place the focus on the sender to correct it if the sender thought it was worth reposting?
That is pretty much what C clearly said, if its a long post the author is asked to repost and their post is PM'd if requested.
Yes, I meant that "sometimes" the moderator takes this extra step.I believe she said “sometimes”....
We do have policies that everyone should understand - the "Rules". If members violate them, posts will be deleted. The moderators do try to be fair and compassionate, and thus often go an extra step to help members.why not have a policy, so that we all understand that all unacceptable longer posts will be returned.
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