Steve Taylor
Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- June 2019 Sarria to Santiago Sept 2019 Logrono to Burgos Aug 2020 St Jean Pied De Port to Logrono
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
The Compostelas get printed since at least April/May 2023
I questioned the policy, but her English was limited and my Spanish is very poor, so I couldn’t get a good explanation.That's strange. This is the first report of that change. Are you sure you weren't accidentally looking at your distance certificate? I think that is unlikely as you've got three previous Compostelas and can be presumed to know the difference. But it also seems unlikely that this change would happen without a whole bunch of people remarking on it.
no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her.The Compostelas get printed since at least April/May 2023, perhaps even earlier. They use a cursive font for pilgrim name and date etc. that resembles handwriting.
As to the Latinisation of given names with a latinised track record (for example known latinised given name in Catholic parish registers from the 16th until the 19th century) - that appears to be a bit haphazard.
@Steve Taylor, can you say for certain that nobody had their given name latinised on the day you got your Compostela and since then?
I questioned the policy, but her English was limited and my Spanish is very poor, so I couldn’t get a good explanation.
no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her.
I questioned the policy, but her English was limited and my Spanish is very poor, so I couldn’t get a good explanation.
no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her.
I asked for a religious Compostela and got the document I posted earlier.Hi Steve, did you ask for a Compostela for your Camino where the purpose was religious?
My experience in the last week was:
(A) Distance (both) - my name as I input it
(B) Compostela for religious purposes - Latinised name (at least the first name)
(C) Compostela for non-religious reasons - my name as I input it
Just wondering what type of certificate you requested?
@Steve Taylor, this is rather unfortunate.no, because I was alone. All I know is that my Compostela and distance certificate were not in Latin. Should this have been in Latin. The woman in the office was not helpful when I pointed this out to her
I got one on 2023/8/25:It will be interesting to hear from others that have received Compostelas in the last few days.
At the end of my first Camino I was gently but thoroughly grilled for about 20 minutes by one of the cathedral priests about my religious motivation and understanding of pilgrimage. As a Protestant theology student I was clearly an exotic specimen at the time. I found it a very generous and helpful debriefing exercise. Not a realistic idea with the numbers these days and probably not acceptable to many nowadays anyway. A pity.When I got my first Compostela in 2018, I remember rehearsing in my mind what I would say at the office, giving my reason for walking the Camino.
That's it, isn't it? The more people that walk, the less opportunity there might be for that sweet interrogation.At the end of my first Camino I was gently but thoroughly grilled for about 20 minutes by one of the cathedral priests about my religious motivation and understanding of pilgrimage. As a Protestant theology student I was clearly an exotic specimen at the time. I found it a very generous and helpful debriefing exercise. Not a realistic idea with the numbers these days and probably not acceptable to many nowadays anyway. A pity.
Impossible with today's numbers. There were more Compostelas issued on a single day last year than in the entire year of my first Camino. It is quite remarkable that the new system can manage the daily traffic at this time of year.That's it, isn't it? The more people that walk, the less opportunity there might be for that sweet interrogation.
This is categorically correct. The translation software as it's currently configured, can't cope with two given names and will print them just as they appear on the online form by default. The simple workaround (currently) is to look them up in Latin as before, and manually type them into the compostela. This is what's normally done.I noticed that there are two given names on your Compostela. I wonder whether the algorithm of the software that looks for a Latin version of a given name does not deal well with such a situation and that is why it did not assign Latin names to each of your given names. Perhaps the volunteer did not know how to redress this.
This is categorically incorrect. Your details were written in manually the same as everyone else's last year, because printers only came into use around March 2023.They were already printing the names last year, though mine was hand-written as my Windows Phone does not support pre-registration.
What is "categorically incorrect" ? I talked in Santiago last year with pilgrims who had the names on their Compostelas computer printed.This is categorically incorrect.
Well personally last year, given that I made sure to go in at a very non-busy point in the day, despite my Compostela needing to be done "the old-fashioned way" by hand after the traditional interview -- given that my Christian name is an obvious Classical Latin one, and surnames are apart from odd exception invariable, and that it was blatantly obvious I had fulfilled the conditions, my stop at the counter was about the average for that point in the day, bit more than those couple of minutes as there was no queue, and the volunteers could consequently take a bit more time with each pilgrim.The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes, pre laser printing, and now about one minute per pilgrim with pre-printed Compostelas and Distancias. Most of this time is social pleasantries to welcome and congratulate the pilgrim.
Moribund, but not quite dead -- as this very discussion thread attests to !!Regarding the use and printing of actual given names, versus Latin equivalents, one must remember that Latin is a dead language.
Being pedantic I know, but it's a Mediaeval name, so probably would be better as Christinam on a Compostela. It's originally a Greek Χριστίνα, and Greek Χριστ- > Mediaeval Latin Christ-.So, if you happen to have a given name for which no Latin equivalent exists, don't blame the system. Consider entering a traditional version of the usual spelling of your name to increase the chance of a database match. For example: "Christie" might be better submitted as "Christine" - resulting in a Latin "Cristina."
This long planned, streamlined registration system wasn't introduced to mitigate against covid spread, nor was it introduced as a result of any volunteer claiming to have influence over policy and decision making at any level. I was reliably informed it was planned and implemented to cope with the anticipated flood of pilgrims for the 2021 holy year and beyond, plain and simple.In 2021, the Pilgrim Office started collecting all the pilgrim-specific information online, instead of using paper forms on clipboards and pens, shared by many people, and which could cause the spread of COVID.
I'm sure that lots of paper has been saved as a result too.The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes
@Steve Taylor, did you go back and had it changed?kind of like seeing the Latin version of my name on the certificate.
I love it. Gracias. DamianusIn 2021, the Pilgrim Office started collecting all the pilgrim-specific information online, instead of using paper forms on clipboards and pens, shared by many people, and which could cause the spread of COVID. By 2023, they rolled out the planned use of this advance input information to laser print Compostelas and Distancias, using a beautiful calligraphic font.
The net result of replacing rekeying of all that demographic information at the counter, instead of reading it electronically, was to reduce the average time to process one pilgrim at the counter from 7-10 minutes, to less than 2 minutes, pre laser printing, and now about one minute per pilgrim with pre-printed Compostelas and Distancias. Most of this time is social pleasantries to welcome and congratulate the pilgrim.
I confirmed this in 2022 when I worked as a volunteer and ran ad hoc timings on random pilgrim processing on different days, and times of days, at different staff positions. The two minutes was virtually all taken up by searching for the Latin name, then writing the information on the pre-printed Compostela forms.
For now, the "Vicare Pro" add-on is being done by manual annotation at the counter. However, it is being contemplated as an additional data input element for the advance data collection. Click on the question mark to learn about it, then tick a box to choose yes or no, then enter the exact name of the person you are dedicating the Compostela to a drop down box. The result is that the laser printer will add the annotation in a perfect calligraphic font, as the rest of the Compostela. Stay tuned on this one. Changes move differently in Spain. But, eventually, everything works out.
Regarding the use and printing of actual given names, versus Latin equivalents, one must remember that Latin is a dead language. Many names used now, do not have an original Latin root. I specifically recall an American pilgrim named "Todd" who was upset that we could not discern an original Latin root name. It turns out, by questioning that he was christened as "Todd." It was never intended to be a nickname for a traditional name like Thaddeus or Theodore - for which Latin equivalents do exist.
So, if you happen to have a given name for which no Latin equivalent exists, don't blame the system. Consider entering a traditional version of the usual spelling of your name to increase the chance of a database match. For example: "Christie" might be better submitted as "Christine" - resulting in a Latin "Cristina." The database table lookups at literal. They do NOT employ AI concepts and cannot look at the Latin tables flexibly.
Some people have complained about how fast the new system works and how there are no queues at many times of the day. Let me tell you that this is preferable to two-to-three hour waits outside in all weather. Once the pilgrim arrival volumes regularly exceed about 1,500 daily, no amount of human staff could handle the volume. Introducing automated assistance was crucial to the Pilgrim Office and Compostela process keeping its head above water - so to speak.
This was especially true during the extended Holy Year. Presently, the volumes are NOT declining steeply from Holy Year levels, as would usually be expected.
Then, in 2027, we have yet another Holy Year. coming So all the work being done during this interregnum, to develop and improve the automated assist system is vital to ensure that future pilgrims can obtain their certificates in a timely manner.
I have seen and been part of the process at all levels - since 2013, arriving as a pilgrim, and working as a volunteer. I have even made some of the process improvement recommendations that are referenced here. Trust me when I tell you that this is the only way to sustain future growth.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Surnames are only very exceptionally of Latin/Greek origin, and so purviewed of regular and variable form in the Mediaeval Latin Accusative.I had often wondered about the databases that are used by the Pilgrim Office and why they latinise given names and not surnames like in the case of the OP where this would be easy to do.
The process changes occurred at about the same time the COVID pandemic hit hard at the end of 2019 into 2020. The former, fully manual, and paper-based system used clipboards, forms and pens - all of which were used my many people daily. Early on, these items were identified as a disease vector for the spread of COVID.This long planned, streamlined registration system wasn't introduced to mitigate against covid spread, nor was it introduced as a result of any volunteer claiming to have influence over policy and decision making at any level. I was reliably informed it was planned and implemented to cope with the anticipated flood of pilgrims for the 2021 holy year and beyond, plain and simple.
But it was a perfect storm, certainly. And a coincidence, yes that too.
I hope this clarifies matters,
Accusative ? Are you sure ? I would have say Nominative.in the Mediaeval Latin Accusative.
On the Compostelas I have received my first name has always been given in the accusative form - Rolandum - rather than the nominative Rolandus. Though 45 years after leaving school without practising the language my Latin grammar is now so poor that I cannot understand from the text why that should be!Accusative ? Are you sure ? I would have say Nominative.
On the Compostelas I have received my first name has always been given in the accusative form - Rolandum - rather than the nominative Rolandus. Though 45 years after leaving school without practising the language my Latin grammar is now so poor that I cannot understand from the text why that should be!
Not only yours are vanishing or have vanished. But luckily we have the web and this forum ...Probably the sentence requires it, my latin rememberings are vanishing…
The pilgrim's name is the noun part of an Accusative Absolute ; which is why, in the rare case of a surname that were variable in Latin, it too should be in the Accusative.Accusative ? Are you sure ? I would have say Nominative.
Wait, isn't the third bullet in case 2 actually case 1? In what ways will your full name be different from how you entered it?Facts: On a Compostela, your full name can appear in two different ways:
In case 2:
- Exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
- Not exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
- Your given name appears in a latinised form. People who learnt Latin in secondary school a long time ago, or in some other way later in life, may point out that your given name appears in the Latin accusative form.
- Your surname appears as you entered it on your online registration form.
- If you entered two given names in your online registration form, your two given names will appear exactly as you entered them.
This is a software bug that has been known for a few months now, since the time when they started to print Compostelas instead of completing them by hand. It is the reason for this thread.
Wait, isn't the third bullet in case 2 actually case 1?
Because most Pilgrim Office volunteers and most pilgrims have not good enough Latin to immediately spot the mistakes.Why, in 2023, do we see Stephanum Taylor, Robertum Taylor, and Stephen Robert Taylor on current Compostelas and why do we not see Stephanum Robertum Taylor?
I disagree - there is a case 3....Facts: On a Compostela, your full name can appear in two different ways:
In case 2:
- Exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
- Not exactly the way you entered it on your online registration form
- Your given name appears in a latinised form. People who learnt Latin in secondary school a long time ago, or in some other way later in life, may point out that your given name appears in the Latin accusative form.
- Your surname appears as you entered it on your online registration form.
I suggest that we stick to a minimum of habitual logic.I disagree - there is a case 3....
- My given name appeared in a latinased form, in the accusative form
- My surname appeared in a different form, because of the " ˇ " and " ´ " slavic surnames often have, and I guess Spanish people are not accustomed to. They appeared over different letters than they should have. Which is a proof that at least during November of last year, the name was handwritten on the Compostellas
No, generally they are computer-printed, which has been the case for years.Which is a proof that at least during November of last year, the name was handwritten on the Compostellas
I am not sad, I would personally prefer my real name, not a generic latin form which really doesn’t correlate well with my name.I'm not sure why that makes me sad, but it does.
Documents in Latin do use a Latin form where one exists, which is just a rule of the language. English by contrast does what it can to keep original forms. The two languages simply treat proper names in quite opposite ways.I am not sad, I would personally prefer my real name, not a generic latin form which really doesn’t correlate well with my name.
For the last time: There were no printers in the pilgrims office last October. Your unexceptional compostela would have been handwritten along with all the rest of them at that time.No, generally they are computer-printed, which has been the case for years.
But for some of us, by exception, they can still be written by hand. Mine was in October, yours in November, but the vast majority of pilgrims have them computer printed.
Volunteers don't erroneously "latinize" anything. They are tasked to work from a specific database of names.A Compostela will use a proper Latin form when there is one, whereas volunteers should not erroneously "latinize" a name that simply has no Latin form.
I am not sad, I would personally prefer my real name, not a generic latin form which really doesn’t correlate well with my name.
I do not think so.OTOH if Julius Caesar were to get his Compostela, his name should appear : Gaium Iulium Caesarem.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?