design4life
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- CF 2014-18 Kumano Kodo 2019 Portu 2022 Inglés 2023
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and if the traction is "too" good, does anyone experience the interior slip-and-slide problem?
@davebugg
I think he means - if the grip underfoot is excellent, will his feet slip and slide within the shoes, when his feet, as opposed to the ground underfoot, are wet ... as happens with his Sketchers.
Love my Altra Timps, but they are TERRIBLE on rainy, slick surfaces like tiles or marble.
I agree about adjusting the lacing, which I do with my Keens, to keep my feet from slipping forward on downhill and smashing my toe(nail)s. I think also that Sketchers are cheap shoes with little support.Then the answer is 'no'. For blister prevention you WANT some slippage of the foot in the shoe. . you want the sock to transfer the shear friction to the shoe, instead of the skin of the foot. If there is no slippage, or very little slippage, that helps to force movement of the sock against the foot.
BUT, one can tighten laces and adjust tension points, to eliminate as much slippage as one chooses regardless of how sticky a shoe's traction may be. Stickiness of traction merely changes how much or how little is done. Unless they are Klown Shoes. . then, all bets are off
I feel the same about my Altra Superior 4. I love the feel (first pair of shoes wide enough), but I almost slid across the marble floor. They’re great for walking around town and the treadmill.Love my Altra Timps, but they are TERRIBLE on rainy, slick surfaces like tiles or marble.
It is not the depth of tread that determines traction on smooth surfaces, but the material compounds used in the outersole. The less flexible and stiff the outersole, the more slippery on smoother surfaces.
You mentioned Hokka One One. In general, there are some models, like the Bondi series (I use the version 6. Version 7 will be along shortly) which are very good with wet and smoother surface traction.
When I gear tested the Bondi for Hoka I was very concerned about wet surface and smooth surface traction. As the testing continued, I was pretty amazed at how well they gripped. Even on wet and smooth tracks. When I looked closely at the outersole with a magnifying glass, I readily saw why: there a thousands of micro-sipes on the sole. A sipe is simply a thin slice in the material. The slices remain closed until pressure is applied, then they will slightly open up which exposes hundreds of teeny edges. It is these edges which create the grip.
Softer compounds (relative. . they are not really anywhere near being squishy or spongy) also allow for micro-pitting to occur, which also adds to the traction.
Hokka is not the only shoe manufacturer that employs this technology.
Deeper treads, like shallow lugs, can help with regard to hard smooth surfaces which have a thin layer of slippery debris laying on top. That debris, like sand, sits on top of the hardpan or concrete or asphalt, etc and will act like micro ball bearings. You plant your shoe or boot, and the debris will start slipping over the underlying hard surface. You suddenly slip and 'boom. . . you are on the ground.
This is most dangerous going downhill. . . don't ask me how I know
Shallow lugs put focused pressure that tends to do a better job of penetrating through that debris so that it shoves it out of the way. That reduces the amount of slipping.
For shoes like the Hokka Bondi, the micro sipping can help in such a situation, but not as much as with a shallow lug. Conversely, a shallow lug can make smooth or wetted hard surfaces more slippery.
For all shoes, the 'heel plant' is the best method for dealing with down slopes with loose debris over a hard surface. As you step down, make sure you plant the outer edge of your heel first. This will help to force the shoe through the debris layer and better secure your footing as you continue your step forward.
Whatever you do, do NOT land on your forefoot in this situation, as the larger surface allows for wider weight distribution, which is more conducive to 'floating' on top of the debris, which increases the risk of slipping.
I do not understand what that means. . . could you clarify?
Thanks for that info Dave. I have been wearing in a pair of Hoka bondi version 6 for the De La Plata starting late March and I thought that they were slippery on cobbled type surfaces. I will try the heel first method and see if that helps. I notice that the hoka has a pronounced bevel at the heel and wonder if this will help or hinder.
I walked 2 Caminos in the same trail runners in Portugal, in total 900+km, in June and January. Had plenty of rain and some torrential downpours in them. These are the budget Calenji KeepRun ones from Decathlon that I bought in Porto just 1 day before starting the Camino. So didn't have a try run, though they behaved well - no blisters at all on those 2 Caminos and they still look almost new. Anyway, the only trouble with them was for a few days of the first Camino as they proved to be very slippery on the wet cobblestones. I had them only 0.5 size larger then my feet so they didn't slip inside the shoe. It took several days of walking on different surfces - in the rain that we had from the very start of the walk - to break them: the soles got much less slippery and it was comfortable to walk in them later. Though at the begining I had to walk slowly and carefuly, it almosy felt like ice-skating or skiing at timesI'm planning to walk the Portuguese this spring and have been considering investing in trail runners, for extra cushioning on the tiled roads and sidewalks. My concern is -- how stable are they in the rain?
@davebugg Thanks for this very helpful analysis. I had to look up "sipes" but now I get what you're saying. Have you looked at the Hoka Gaviota? It is listed as "maximum stabillity and is the white/pink image attached. I've also attached the Bondi (black/white) for comparison.
It took several days of walking on different surfces - in the rain that we had from the very start of the walk - to break them: the soles got much less slippery and it was comfortable to walk in them later. Though at the begining I had to walk slowly and carefuly, it almosy felt like ice-skating or skiing at timesSo if you have a chance to break yours in before the walk then you are in luck!
I believe “maximum stability” relates to the structure of the shoe itself ... that is, how it ‘holds’ the foot ... rather than how the outsole behaves on wet surfaces.
... but I could be wrong ...
Many shoes touted for stability will use a wide sole at the back which extends beyond the upper.
I wore my old reliable Keen hiking shoes three times on the CF and lighter weight Salomon hiking shoes this past year on the Kumano Kodo, not wanting to shlep heavy boots on a month-long trip through Japan. I'm planning to walk the Portuguese this spring and have been considering investing in trail runners, for extra cushioning on the tiled roads and sidewalks. My concern is -- how stable are they in the rain? I love my Sketchers, but here on the sidewalks of New York, I find that when they get soaked my feet slide and squish around inside them and cause me to lose my balance. So -- two questions here. How is the traction of Hokas etc in rain, and if the traction is "too" good, does anyone experience the interior slip-and-slide problem? Thanks.
The manufacturers use different sole types on different shoes.Thanks for all the info and observations. I'm not a getting a great feeling from you all for trail runners and am wondering whether just to wear my clunky old Keens. The thing is: Even in the Keens I slipped on one of those tiled curbs leaving Burgos in the rain in 2015 and landed in the ER with a smashed wrist. So I'm kinda spooked about slipping. The heel first technique makes sense.
It is not the depth of tread that determines traction on smooth surfaces, but the material compounds used in the outersole. The less flexible and stiff the outersole, the more slippery on smoother surfaces.
You mentioned Hokka One One. In general, there are some models, like the Bondi series (I use the version 6. Version 7 will be along shortly) which are very good with wet and smoother surface traction.
When I gear tested the Bondi for Hoka I was very concerned about wet surface and smooth surface traction. As the testing continued, I was pretty amazed at how well they gripped. Even on wet and smooth tracks. When I looked closely at the outersole with a magnifying glass, I readily saw why: there a thousands of micro-sipes on the sole. A sipe is simply a thin slice in the material. The slices remain closed until pressure is applied, then they will slightly open up which exposes hundreds of teeny edges. It is these edges which create the grip.
Softer compounds (relative. . they are not really anywhere near being squishy or spongy) also allow for micro-pitting to occur, which also adds to the traction.
Hokka is not the only shoe manufacturer that employs this technology.
Deeper treads, like shallow lugs, can help with regard to hard smooth surfaces which have a thin layer of slippery debris laying on top. That debris, like sand, sits on top of the hardpan or concrete or asphalt, etc and will act like micro ball bearings. You plant your shoe or boot, and the debris will start slipping over the underlying hard surface. You suddenly slip and 'boom. . . you are on the ground.
This is most dangerous going downhill. . . don't ask me how I know
Shallow lugs put focused pressure that tends to do a better job of penetrating through that debris so that it shoves it out of the way. That reduces the amount of slipping.
For shoes like the Hokka Bondi, the micro sipping can help in such a situation, but not as much as with a shallow lug. Conversely, a shallow lug can make smooth or wetted hard surfaces more slippery.
For all shoes, the 'heel plant' is the best method for dealing with down slopes with loose debris over a hard surface. As you step down, make sure you plant the outer edge of your heel first. This will help to force the shoe through the debris layer and better secure your footing as you continue your step forward.
Whatever you do, do NOT land on your forefoot in this situation, as the larger surface allows for wider weight distribution, which is more conducive to 'floating' on top of the debris, which increases the risk of slipping.
I do not understand what that means. . . could you clarify?
It is not the depth of tread that determines traction on smooth surfaces, but the material compounds used in the outersole. The less flexible and stiff the outersole, the more slippery on smoother surfaces.
You mentioned Hokka One One. In general, there are some models, like the Bondi series (I use the version 6. Version 7 will be along shortly) which are very good with wet and smoother surface traction.
...................<<snip>>
For all shoes, the 'heel plant' is the best method for dealing with down slopes with loose debris over a hard surface. As you step down, make sure you plant the outer edge of your heel first. This will help to force the shoe through the debris layer and better secure your footing as you continue your step forward.
Whatever you do, do NOT land on your forefoot in this situation, as the larger surface allows for wider weight distribution, which is more conducive to 'floating' on top of the debris, which increases the risk of slipping.<end quote>
Thank you for confirming what I had suspected. I have 3 different boots I wear at home.... My Merrills have a vibram sole that is quite rigid, and my Salomans have a similar sole. I decided to leave both of those at home even though the vamp and last in each is very comfortable, and doesn't have the excessively (for me) wide toe box of my Keens. But my Keens have a softer sole. They wear pretty quickly, generally smooth on the heel at about 1250-1500 K every single time. They do not, however, slip on sheer surfaces or on wet leaves that have fallen onto concrete walkways, nor even much on the wed shale like one finds on the descent into Molinaseca.
Cheers.
Faye
My wife and I both use the Bondi road running model in the gym but I wouldn't recommend it for any offroad applications.
I had a two spectacular slip and falls on wet Portuguese stone sets, due in part to the lack of traction of the soles of my sandals. Very hard, very tough, look as new after 1000km, but that "steel" like surface sure can slide...
If I were to walk the Portuguese again I'd try a pair of good old fashioned Dunlop Volleys. Renowned for their grip.
I sure don't like to slip but I have no experience with Hokas. I will add that I had excellent low-cut hiking shoes that were waterproof and I did not have sweaty feet. Despite their great sole, those cobblestones in Portugal just about did me in!I wore my old reliable Keen hiking shoes three times on the CF and lighter weight Salomon hiking shoes this past year on the Kumano Kodo, not wanting to shlep heavy boots on a month-long trip through Japan. I'm planning to walk the Portuguese this spring and have been considering investing in trail runners, for extra cushioning on the tiled roads and sidewalks. My concern is -- how stable are they in the rain? I love my Sketchers, but here on the sidewalks of New York, I find that when they get soaked my feet slide and squish around inside them and cause me to lose my balance. So -- two questions here. How is the traction of Hokas etc in rain, and if the traction is "too" good, does anyone experience the interior slip-and-slide problem? Thanks.
i prefer Keens. Upper ankle is almost a necessity. I do alot of PCT section hikes. Doing the Portuguese Coastal route in February with the Keens. Poles are essential for balance - esp when tired and on slick tiles.I wore my old reliable Keen hiking shoes three times on the CF and lighter weight Salomon hiking shoes this past year on the Kumano Kodo, not wanting to shlep heavy boots on a month-long trip through Japan. I'm planning to walk the Portuguese this spring and have been considering investing in trail runners, for extra cushioning on the tiled roads and sidewalks. My concern is -- how stable are they in the rain? I love my Sketchers, but here on the sidewalks of New York, I find that when they get soaked my feet slide and squish around inside them and cause me to lose my balance. So -- two questions here. How is the traction of Hokas etc in rain, and if the traction is "too" good, does anyone experience the interior slip-and-slide problem? Thanks.
I've narrowed options to Hoka Bondi or Hoka Speedboat. From this thread, I see advantages of each -- microsipes (perhaps with a bit of sandpaper/break-in time) vs narrow lug. Ultimately I'm worried about slips and falls, due to past history. Any final thoughts about one vs the other, specifically on wet cobbestone/tiles of Portugal? Walking Porto to Santiago, so will be on Spain side for second half. Thanks so much, and sorry for any seeming redundancy on question.
Hi,Hi, has anyone walked in the Hoka Challenger Atr 5 trail shoes?
Hi,
My son and I both walked the invierno last year wearing the Challenger Atr 4, we both have been happy. I have just bought a 5 to wear when the 4 wears out, I don't notice a big difference between the 4 and 5 walking around the house, haven't tried them in the wild yet.
Buen camino,
MaryEllen
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