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Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/
Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html
Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!
They have. I think the Navarra rate is about $1,500E.They should begin making those pilgrims who ignore the warnings pay for their rescue!
It was debated in the press in Spain last year before the charge was instituted. I think Spain is less conflated on public services; you abuse them, and there are consequences! The stranded last year were almost all Koreans. Cell phones saved them.the question of whether to pay or not was a tough one
Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/
Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html
Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!
There are good decisions, and there are bad decisions. There are good outcomes, and there are bad outcomes. Often all four are completely unrelated! I am in favor of charging for the bad decisions when they can be identified. Disobeying the recommendations of the knowledgeable in SJPdP counts as a bad decision in my book!
NOTHING is worth risking your health or personal safety. Even calculated risks can be ill advised.
I had a difficult time finding yellow arrows when walking that Foncebadon in the fall, can't imagine trying to follow a trail in the snow.
I am curious, so a couple of questions to those of you who have done adventure treks at say, a riskier level than the Camino - such as Annapurna, Machu Pichu, Kilimanjaro, and the like: Who knows you are there (re suggested registration). How are you rescued. Is there a charge for the rescue. I ask because I know several people who have done some or all of these adventures and I never thought to ask these questions until this discussion.
(my punctuation marks are not working)
This is exactly true.
However, travel in adverse weather conditions might be risk for some but not for others. It depends on the situation and the knowledge, level of preparedness, and experience of the person.
The phrase 'calculated risk' to me means that a person sets out under the knowledge that an elevated risk is being undertaken.
If I were in Foncebadon equipped with parka mukluks and mittens I would set out in the weather indicated by the OP ... its normal and not even a calculated risk. But if you've never used the gear even if you are equipped, it becomes an unreasonable risk. The problem is how do you differentiate. Sure its easy to judge that if someone were to set out in those conditions in a t-shirt and sneakers. But there are lots of variables in between that put that judgement call into question.
I live in Colorado, USA, a state known for its year-round outdoor activities. This, of course, means that there are inevitably a fairly significant number of hikers, skiers, snowmobilers, hunters, fishermen, etc. that find themselves lost or injured in hard-to-reach wilderness areas. To help offset the cost of the SAR (search and rescue) operations, a 25-cent charge is added to every hunting and fishing license and every off-road vehicle and boat registration fee. Those that neither hunt nor fish, but spend a lot of time in the outdoors hiking or skiing can purchase a "CORSAR" -- Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue -- card which is good for one-year ($3) or five years ($12). The fees from either the hunting/fishing or the COSAR card go into a general fund used to cover search and rescue efforts throughout the state. Anyone unfortunate enough to require an organized search and rescue operation may be required to reimburse the authorities for at least some of the cost of the SAR operations UNLESS they have a a valid Colorado hunting license, fishing license, or CORSAR card.
I mention all this because as others have suggested, perhaps such a minimal charge could be paid by all pilgrims to cover SAR costs. In reality, only a miniscule percentage of pilgrims actually require this service, so a charge of perhaps less than a Euro doesn't seem unreasonable. And to give all pilgrims the chance to be eligible for this benefit, should the need arise, this amount might be added to the donation or fee for the pilgrims' credential. The unfortunate pilgrim who needs the services of search and rescue authorities has only to show his or her pilgrims' passport to avoid being personally charged for the cost of the SAR operation. Just a thought.
Jim
This thread has had a couple of constructive ideas in relation to dealing with the rescue issue.
First, the cost of a rescue team is embedded. I am assuming a regional rescue team is there whether or not it is a Pilgrim route . Therefore, I would also assume local taxes pay for the cost unless it is voluntary (There would still be equipment cost). That said, a nominal fee paid by all users would not seem unreasonable. Just like the west coast trail in Canada charges a $50. fee and limits numbers of passes to walk the trail each year. I would pay the additional few Euro's as a user.
The other point, I felt was constructive, was the idea to print out informational sheets (from SJPdP) in all languages. There very well could be a communication barrier issue leading foreign Pilgrims to misunderstand warnings.
Ultreya,
Joe
From the rescue crew's point of view, venturing into a blizzard to rescue a foolish pilgrim, that may not be the best thought. Rescue is not just about the pilgrim, it is about those who are put at risk by his actions. As guests in Spain, we may want to think a bit past ourselves. Just suggesting.Let a few people a year be rescued.
A simple sign would perhaps suffice along the route when it is unsafe to walk, then there would be no need of multiple-language handouts.
Trouble is when it comes to inferring what no sign means. Does it mean that the route is safe or that they didn't change the sign today or that the sign blew away. Not being deliberately picky, it's something that has come up in the past at work (I work in a safety obsessed sector). People tend to act in safer ways when they are actively part of the decision making.
The civil law of Spain is not that nuanced. Leave in bad weather, require rescue, get a bill. Otherwise, bring a lawyer, which will cost lots more than the bill. The tourists who are gored in San Fermines likewise get a bill. I think only in the U.S. do we litigate under common law in the hope that a judge will create new precedent. In Spain, stupid is stupid, and you pay for the rescue (as of last year).establishes a legal basis for levying a charge
Many of you probably remember the rash of pilgrim rescues undertaken last year by the Navarran authorities, which led to imposition of a 1,500€ rescue charge. http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...harge-for-rescues-caused-by-imprudence.16849/
Similar facts this year, different place:
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ieve-foncebadon-peregrino-japones_866289.html
Pilgrim leaves Rabanal despite warnings, has to be rescued by authorities near Foncebadon, and then continues merrily on his way by bus to Ponferrada. Be careful pilgrims!!!!
So much the better when my good judgment comes by learning from someone else's bad judgment!Good judgments come from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgments.
With respect but are you going to contribute to the huge costs incurred by the owners of paper,ink,printer. Each individual must do due diligence on there part ahead of time,And use there gray matter wisely....One of the more profound lessons I learned early on my first Camino last year was that: "there are days to be smart and days to be brave." Although I have prior experience with wilderness hiking, military training and operations, as well as survival training, I learned FAST on the Camino exactly what Falcon says. NOTHING is worth risking your health or personal safety. Even calculated risks can be ill advised.
Just as an aside, I was on the Camino Frances at the same time period last year when the French woman day-hiker fell 300 meters down a non-Camino trail in the Pyrenees and was consumed completely by the Griffon Vultures within 45-minutes - before rescue services could reach her. THAT story made me exquisitely conscious of the new rule of the road I mentioned above. Without getting specific, just do a Bing or Google search on "Griffon Vulture Pyrenees hiker..."
I also believe that along with places to stay and altitude views of the Camino Frances, the starting point pilgrim offices ought to give out "rules of the road" sheets to everyone, in their own language and especially to folks who cannot possibly read the Latin alphabet we use throughout Western Europe. I am certain the translations can be done into Asian languages with nil effort or expense. At least everyone will have been duly informed.
Imagine the converse, were most of us to try to hike a trail in Thailand or India where the Sanskrit alphabet is used, or in Korea, Japan or China, where pictograph alphabets were the rule. We would be as totally perplexed as the Korean folks mentioned above. In all my travel to Asia over my career and after, I am still stymied by these alphabets. I well understand the perplexity of pilgrims from Korea, or other countries that do not share our alphabet.
I suggest it is a good idea to provide a printed list of helpful "rules" to folks who cannot handle the Roman Alphabet and a phrase-book in the several more or less standard languages along the Camino: i.e. Spanish, French, German, Italian, English, Dutch, Portuguese, etc.
There are days to be smart and days to be brave. Learn to recognize which is which and behave accordingly. If you act out of true ignorance, I submit you deserve to be rescued and not charged. However, if you were notified, as above, and failed to heed the warnings, then I maintain you should be charged.
Being made to "sign in" at the starting pilgrim office might be one way to enforce this. They already collect all manner of information now for statistical purposes. Perhaps noting the native language we read and write in, along with our signature, and perhaps our passport numbers would be useful. This "pilgrim register" would enable the rescue services to know more about who is out there.
That is true enough as a general principle, but it's not absolute and other factors must be considered. For instance, the number of Korean speakers with Camino experience pales compared to the number of English speakers, and there is almost certainly a massive comparative gap in the number and quality of resources available for their due diligence. Then, unless they have a reasonable fluency with English, French, or Spanish when they arrive in France, no amount of gray matter will overcome a language barrier. As more and more make pilgrimage, their own Camino culture will grow the depth and breadth of native language resources available for due diligence, but it still won't solve the language gaps they face after they arrive in Europe.Each individual must do due diligence on there part ahead of time,And use there gray matter wisely....
While I agree with the conclusion, I don't agree with the line of thinking that led there. Get out certainly, but do so without unnecessarily endangering others, including rescue and emergency services. They may volunteer, but that is no reason to treat them with the cynicism evident here.Don't take the responsibilities of others on your shoulders.
If people go looking for lost pilgrims in foul weather it is their choice.
In general the rescue organisations love it. They get to use their training, rush about being important, lecture the unfortunate, go for a beer with their mates afterwards. They have a whale of a time. Advising caution spoils their fun.
Get yourselves out there.
In general the rescue organisations love it. They get to use their training, rush about being important, lecture the unfortunate, go for a beer with their mates afterwards. They have a whale of a time. Advising caution spoils their fun.
There are a couple of old posts (July) in this thread that were quite inflamatory. I have deleted them and edited the latest posts to remove reference to those posts. Let sleeping dogs lie!
What are the chances of it snowing in SeptemberThey should begin making those pilgrims who ignore the warnings pay for their rescue!
ZeroWhat are the chances of it snowing in September
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