- Time of past OR future Camino
- Many, various, and continuing.
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Perhaps the next time this forum is asked to recommend the "best" Albergues, we should suggest " its the one you are sleeping in tonight", and the "best" Meson is the one that is open on a dark evening in the *£$€hole of nowhere and that "why doesn't somebody?" is because nobody did, and how come you didn't?
That is the subject of the Compostela, and you are quite right; the only judgement that counts is the Pilgrim Office/Cathedral which issues it. Quite different is maintaining an infrastructure for the struggling pilgrim. The two do not have to be intertwined.Who are we to judge who is a pilgrim and who is a tourist?
La “Compostela” se concede sólo a quien hace la peregrinación con sentido cristiano: devotionis affectu, vel voti pietatis causa (motivada por la devoción, el voto o la piedad)You gotta stand for something
In reality, for the religious pilgrim, Judgment belongs to God.That is the subject of the Compostela, and you are quite right; the only judgement that counts is the Pilgrim Office/Cathedral which issues it. Quite different is maintaining an infrastructure for the struggling pilgrim. The two do not have to be intertwined.
But we hear from Him so rarely, the last time in Aramaic or Greek, which I cannot read. We will need an update, perhaps via Facebook, to resolve the Compostela issue...Judgment belongs to God.
Without omniscience it might not be possible to know if you are the only one not hearing from GodBut we hear from Him so rarely
... I don't know why the only place that issues a compostela is Santiago. ...
No one signed. ...
Or maybe we're just not listening...But we hear from Him so rarely, the last time in Aramaic or Greek, which I cannot read. We will need an update, perhaps via Facebook, to resolve the Compostela issue...
And who is behind FICS?Manifesto - a written statement declaring publicly the intentions, motives, or views of its issuer. The issuer is FICS. There is no requirement for individual signature.
May I suggest you read up on the translation of the Latin original of the Compostela? That might answer your question. Link to translated text here: http://peregrinossantiago.es/eng/pilgrimage/the-compostela/
Buen Camino, SY
A Facebook page would get a lot of readers!Or maybe we're just not listening...
For me this is a good document, a good starting point, but then I try not to over think things, I find that if you try to over think an idea you sometimes end up with a camel instead of a horse.
Except for pilgrims.I don't know why the only place that issues a compostela is Santiago. The experience of the camino has little to do with obtaining a compostela;.....
Faith.I guess I am missing the point.....
And banquets on wheels...... I'd also like to see an end to buses and pack caring services.....
Stop telling tourists that they are pilgrims "doing it their way"??
I would suggest that the Camino is not about "the experience of walking on land, meeting other people and immersion in culture' but arriving in Santiago to worship Santiago. Walking on land, meeting people and immersion in culture is not about a pilgrimage but about walking, and can be done anywhere. Hence why Santiago is the place to issue a Compostala.The West Coast Trail is a world famous hiking trail on Vancouver Island. It got so famous and so busy that the wilderness experience was lost. A reservation system and a limit on the number of hikers who could start from either end was imposed. A number of spots were held on first come first serve basis for those who can't plan ahead that far. A user fee was introduced and much needed infrastructure, particularly outhouses, were built.
The result is a much improved wilderness experience. People who would have hiked the West Coast Trail went hiking elsewhere, in essence, spreading the wealth.
I don't know why the only place that issues a compostela is Santiago. The experience of the camino has little to do with obtaining a compostela; its the experience of walking on the land, meeting other people, and immersion in the culture. If the intent is to get people walking to religious sites ... why can there not be compostelas de Burgos, Granada, Cordoba, etcetera? Spread the wealth and improve the experience for everyone who is now 'racing and queuing up at 9 AM in order to get a bed.'
I was lucky in that I went during the shoulder season. There were 6 of us who arrived in Santiago on the 6th of December 2012. I saw the huge complex at Monte de Gozo and could only shake my head and was glad I didn't have to contend with crowds that would fill such a facility.
I would suggest that the Camino is not about "the experience of walking on land, meeting other people and immersion in culture' but arriving in Santiago to worship Santiago. Walking on land, meeting people and immersion in culture is not about a pilgrimage but about walking, and can be done anywhere. Hence why Santiago is the place to issue a Compostala.
This being said, I have to wonder if the numbers wouldn't drop significantly if the Compostela was no longer issued: no proof of glory to frame and display for others to admire our strength and determination. It would be about you, your feet and your heart, noone else.
I was raised in kind of "good old Christian" tradition (although in former Socialist Yugoslavia), but can hardly describe myself as a (Catholic) believer. And I can only ditto your post, but you're on very slippery ground about it on this forum I thinkTwo problems with this:
Why would anyone worship Santiago? He is not now and never was a deity. He was just this guy, a fisherman, who got called to witness Christ's time on earth.
and, no one really knows if it is Santiago's bones that lie in the Cathedral.
Catholics.... (join the dotsI love slippery ground!
... Finishing the pilgrimage once was a major, once-in-a-lifetime achievement -- and few of the people who made it bothered with paperwork, as most of them were illiterates, from illiterate places. Most made due with scallop-shaped lead badges, or actual scallop shells they wore on their clothes for the rest of their lives and had buried with them when they died....
... I welcome your opinions.
No, not suggesting that for a moment, just that the long list of early pilgrim "descriptors" omitted this important reality. The "joining the dots" quip was really pointing back to earlier theological disertations, leading to the quote..... But that does not mean Protestants don't also share that history, and the meaningful act of walking a pilgrimage.
Well said.There's lots of good stuff and the intent is strong - I agree the camino should be 'protected' and supported.
I am not sure about identifying the 100km pilgrims as touristic/lightweight/less serious vs a more dedicated variant. Having just returned from walking the Ingles route from Ferrol, with a strong intent and seriousness, and accompanied by someone doing their first Camino with a strong religious/personal agenda, it is clear that distance is not the issue. If someone only has 1 week available, walking from Ferrol or Sarria or elsewhere should not mark their experience or devotion as lesser.
Equally having trudged the Frances last year and considering the Via de la Plata for next year, I understand the feelings of the longer distance pilgrim on this issue.
I don't know the answer, but it would seem to be in elevating and recognising the commitment of the long distance pilgrimages, not undermining the achievement of the shorter ones. But judging the purity of anyone's endeavour is a dangerous and slippery slope.
I gave my "like" Rebecca, but I have to write: my respect! Look for common ground, what unites us and not insist so much on the separation and differences - with all due respect to history and original meaning of Camino. Certainly for me (which I am not an active Catholic), the Camino implies respect for the majesty of faith of those who follow this path to walk, those who have built a beautiful church, those in whom are still pray ....In one Mass in Carrion de los Condes the priest said, "I know you are here for different reasons, but would be glad if I could bless each of you - come". Then the tears came to my eyes and I'm still touched. I got a lot more than the then blessing.I love slippery ground!
If someone's gotta say it, I will.
Maybe it's time to design a secular compostela, or a "spiritual but not Catholic" one. And make them as pretty and desirable as the present one. Make it so non-Christians don't have to tell a lie to get their souvenir. Eliminate the bed-race by taking away the 100-kilometer rule, and put the traveler's mileage and/or starting point on his certificate, if that is what is so important to him. Charge a fee for it, so you can afford to pay people to do the extra work required. Perhaps lighten up on the whole focus on the Compostela. The point is not the paper, after all.
I dug into this at length on the blog: www.moratinoslife.blogspot.com. I welcome your opinions.
... Maybe it's time to design a secular compostela, or a "spiritual but not Catholic" one. And make them as pretty and desirable as the present one. Make it so non-Christians don't have to tell a lie to get their souvenir. ...
I got my first compostela because I could not find a suitable souvenir in Santiago, so I don't think it was about admiration from someone else! It was a memento to me, but a t-shirt might been sufficient. I honestly do not see what non-Catholics get from the wording of the compostela. If I were the Cathedral, I would not give one to anybody but a card-carrying Catholic. Other recognition of accomplishment could be provided to others. None of them would be free.no proof of glory to frame and display for others to admire our strength and determination
I think this is a problem specific to the Francés as the Primitivo is still contemplative in the last 100kms after Lugo, until you join the Francés. It is still possible to be contemplative, but harder. The Inglés is different again as it never joins the Francés as so can be contemplative right through..................
Anyone who has walked a long way will tell you that the atmosphere is different on the last 100kms. It does not encourage contemplation. I have sometimes warned pilgrims who have been on the camino for a distance that they need to prepare themselves mentally/spiritually................
The same on the Camino Portugues the last 100 km.I think this is a problem specific to the Francés as the Primitivo is still contemplative in the last 100kms after Lugo, until you join the Francés. It is still possible to be contemplative, but harder. The Inglés is different again as it never joins the Francés as so can be contemplative right through.
The problem therefore would seem to be how to make it easier to be contemplative in the final 100kms.The same on the Camino Portugues the last 100 km.
My experience is from May 2014 and September 2014.
From the Cathedral website:Can anyone clear that one up
Speaking to a pilgrim in Oct in Santiago who had just completed the CF, we discussed the ‘bed’ race. I had completed the Portuguese Camino from Porto having no problem with accommodation. The previous Oct 2013, I experienced this problem on the CF. She stated that some pilgrims were getting taxis to jump ahead in order to get accommodation.There is already a secular certificate that is very attractive and much desired by the non-spiritual, perhaps non-Catholic pilgrims arriving at the Pilgrim Office in Santiago. It is called the Certificate of Distance.
This certificate is written in a combination of Latin and Spanish and contains the pilgrim's identification, a statement attesting to the accomplishment, and clearly establishes their starting point, as well as the "official" number of kilometers they walked to get to the Cathedral. Unless I am missing something, this is what many posting above are suggesting.
During 2014, this optional certificate was available on request to all eligible pilgrims at a cost of only €3,00.
Did I miss something?
Thanks Falcon but it still does not clear it up. Is it for all or only for those walking last 100. As I said, I was told in the office that it was only for those walking only the 100. It is somewhat ambiguous or maybe loses something in translation. I did ask at the Irish society and they too think it is only for those walking the last 100. All I know for sure is that I did not have two stamps per day and it was not an issue when I collected my compostelaFrom the Cathedral website:
Se deben reunir sellos de los lugares por los que se va pasando en la “Credencial del Peregrino”, que es la certificación de paso. Se prefieren los sellos de iglesias, albergues, monasterios, catedrales y todos los lugares relacionados con el Camino, pero ante la ausencia de éstos, también se puede sellar en otras instituciones: ayuntamientos, cafés, etc. Hay que sellar la credencial dos veces por día al menos en los últimos 100 Km. ( para los peregrinos a pie o a caballo) o en los últimos 200 Km. (para los peregrinos ciclistas).
Seals should meet the places to be happening in the "Pilgrim's", which is the certification step. Seals churches, shelters, monasteries, cathedrals and all the places related to the Way, but in the absence of these are also preferred sealable other institutions: municipalities, cafés, etc. We must seal the credential twice a day at least the last 100 Km. (For pilgrims on foot or horseback) or in the last 200 Km. (For cyclists pilgrims).
I finished Oct 3rd 2013 and I must have missed something. I have heard a number of people complain about the 'bed race' but it must have passed me by. Of course, I was not following the 'Brierley days'. I was generally walking from his mid point to the next. I did however meet pilgrims who were using taxis after they got their lunchtime sello but that was just a couple of times and one of the days was so wet, there were rumours that Noah had returned. On that day I must admit I was tempted to join them but resisted it lolSpeaking to a pilgrim in Oct in Santiago who had just completed the CF, we discussed the ‘bed’ race. I had completed the Portuguese Camino from Porto having no problem with accommodation. The previous Oct 2013, I experienced this problem on the CF. She stated that some pilgrims were getting taxis to jump ahead in order to get accommodation.
That is the practical application. I suspect they had one too many arguments with long distance pilgrims, so quickly bent the rule when it was obvious that the pilgrim had walked the last 100km after walking the first 650km with only one sello per day.I was told in the office that it was only for those walking only the 100.
Marking The Way: I think unscrupulous business owners who make their own "Camino" to their business should face penalties, especially if it leads someone a significant way off the path. In order to help pilgrims stay on course and to help businesses attract customers, perhaps they could use a color besides yellow. Maybe blaze orange or neon pink, something that would also catch a person's eye.
Hospitality, Point #2: I have much to say about this.
Perhaps the way to go about this would be to have some sort of committee or council that would come up with a set of standards a place must meet. If those standards are met, then the facility could rightly call itself an "Albergue."
Here are some standards that I would propose:
1. Any facility operating as "donativo" would be automatically earn the title of "Albergue," so long as they met basic sanitary conditions such as proper toilets and showers.
2. For facilities that charge a set amount, that price would be capped by a committee. The price could be evaluated yearly, but I would propose that albergue or hostel owners could not sit on the committee, since there would be a conflict of interest.
3. If a facility provides certain services for a donation, such as meals, laundry, or some other service that directly serves the pilgrim, they would receive extra consideration.
4. To be considered an Albergue, certain requirements for the facility would have to be met. I would propose that an Albergue should have a kitchen, with a stove and microwave at minimum, and basic cooking utensils like pots, pans, dishes, and silverware. My personal feeling is that cooking and sharing food is part of a pilgrim experience. I think that an Albergue should also provide laundry facilities for pilgrims. At the very least, laundry sinks and a sheltered area to dry clothes. If a place does have washing machines and dryers, there should be a cap on what they can charge a pilgrim. Three times I payed over 10 euros to have my clothes cleaned! This is far too high! Especially during the cold and rainy times when line drying is out of the question.
These are just a few rough ideas I have on what an "Albergue" should be. I think it should be a place that is there in service of the pilgrims.
Hospitality, Point #3: There was only one time I moved on because of a full albergue, (but then again, I walked in March and April) and that was Palas De Rei. My walking companion and I arrived at the "Pavillon" albergue. The caretaker said they had just taken in several groups of students and we would be in for a noisy night if we stayed there. We continued on down the road to the other Xunta albergue instead.
I didn't begrudge those students. I can't say I would have acted any differently if I had walked the Camino when I was their age! But I did question the signage I saw at Xunta albergues in Galicia. If I recall correctly, it was something along the lines of "Preference will be given to walkers and then to cyclists. Those with support vehicles will be the last to receive beds." Most of the student groups I saw had support vehicles bringing them lunch and sometimes carrying their bags. We stopped at this particular albergue before 3pm, so it's not like we arrived super late, expecting a bed. But yes, I do think unsupported walkers should be given preference when it comes to doling out beds.
Hospitality, Point #5: Spain is famous for their odd hours. "They don't each supper until 10pm!" That's why I found it odd that most albergues had a curfew around 10pm. I do understand the need for quiet hours, but it's hard to soak up the culture and nightlife when there is the danger of getting locked out of your albergue!
I do have a lot more to add on other points in the manifesto, but that's enough for now!
I thought Tincatinker's post regarding entitlements etc. was pretty "close to the money", only I think the problem is not just the light-hearted suggestion re: Pilgrim v Pagan (all should and are welcome), but is about the underlying humanity/behaviour of the Pilgrim/Pagan.... A couple of years ago I made a light-hearted suggestion that it was time for the Pagans to re-claim the Camino, perhaps it is time for the Pilgrim to re-claim the Camino....
Except that Cathedral authorities don't want to put you in their statistics if you don't need the CompostelaI have no constructive comments, except to say that I do hope those who walk get some kind of Compostelas (religious or otherwise) so "the authority" can have accurate statistics to make plans for the Camino (even if you personally don't need the Compostela).
The statistics provided by the Pilgrim Office include pilgrims who have claim to walk for cultural reasons, so there must be some recording of those who aren't issued with a Compostela, but with the alternative certificate. Perhaps if you don't receive any certificate at all, you would go unrecorded.Except that Cathedral authorities don't want to put you in their statistics if you don't need the Compostela
Happened to me this year althought I went to the Office and wanted to just "check in". This means that the statistics are made upon issued Compostelas only.
Sorry for slightly off-topic...
Exactly!The statistics provided by the Pilgrim Office include pilgrims who have claim to walk for cultural reasons, so there must be some recording of those who aren't issued with a Compostela, but with the alternative certificate. Perhaps if you don't receive any certificate at all, you would go unrecorded.
Having tried to find out it seems that there is no record of people. The nearest is the list of countries (10) which were represented.And who is behind FICS?
SY
You can read the article here Diario de Leon.Diario de Leon said:Según daba ayer a conocer Paula de la Riera, representante de la organización, expertos de Corea del Sur, Japón, Estados Unidos, Alemania, México, Bélgica, Francia, Italia, Portugal y España se darán cita a partir de este viernes en el Teatro Villafranquino en el denominado II Foro Internacional del Camino de Santiago.
This seems a little unfair as it is what it actually costs to wash and properly dry the clothes and maintain the machines. If you want to keep the cost down then it can be done by sharing the machines as the cost is incurred whether the machine is full or part loaded. We thought 9€ for washing our clothes was actually quite reasonable, but the cost was shared by 2 of us.If a place does have washing machines and dryers, there should be a cap on what they can charge a pilgrim. Three times I payed over 10 euros to have my clothes cleaned! This is far too high! Especially during the cold and rainy times when line drying is out of the question.
This seems a little unfair as it is what it actually costs to wash and properly dry the clothes and maintain the machines. If you want to keep the cost down then it can be done by sharing the machines as the cost is incurred whether the machine is full or part loaded. We thought 9€ for washing our clothes was actually quite reasonable, but the cost was shared by 2 of us.
In the same way the private accomodations have regulations which incur costs and they are not running a charity but trying to make a living, often during part of the year. Perhaps this is something which the manifesto can make clear to walkers..... The Camino is not cheap to run, nor therefore to walk in this 21st Century - was it ever?
@jeffnd, I'm trying to work out whether this is serious, or a joke. I cannot imagine what the cost of running the bureaucratic arrangements for price controls and cost caps might be, but it won't be free, and ultimately add to everyone's costs. As for some of the other issues raised:Marking The Way: I think unscrupulous business owners who make their own "Camino" to their business should face penalties, especially if it leads someone a significant way off the path. In order to help pilgrims stay on course and to help businesses attract customers, perhaps they could use a color besides yellow. Maybe blaze orange or neon pink, something that would also catch a person's eye.
Hospitality, Point #2: I have much to say about this.
Perhaps the way to go about this would be to have some sort of committee or council that would come up with a set of standards a place must meet. If those standards are met, then the facility could rightly call itself an "Albergue."
Here are some standards that I would propose:
1. Any facility operating as "donativo" would be automatically earn the title of "Albergue," so long as they met basic sanitary conditions such as proper toilets and showers.
2. For facilities that charge a set amount, that price would be capped by a committee. The price could be evaluated yearly, but I would propose that albergue or hostel owners could not sit on the committee, since there would be a conflict of interest.
3. If a facility provides certain services for a donation, such as meals, laundry, or some other service that directly serves the pilgrim, they would receive extra consideration.
4. To be considered an Albergue, certain requirements for the facility would have to be met. I would propose that an Albergue should have a kitchen, with a stove and microwave at minimum, and basic cooking utensils like pots, pans, dishes, and silverware. My personal feeling is that cooking and sharing food is part of a pilgrim experience. I think that an Albergue should also provide laundry facilities for pilgrims. At the very least, laundry sinks and a sheltered area to dry clothes. If a place does have washing machines and dryers, there should be a cap on what they can charge a pilgrim. Three times I payed over 10 euros to have my clothes cleaned! This is far too high! Especially during the cold and rainy times when line drying is out of the question.
These are just a few rough ideas I have on what an "Albergue" should be. I think it should be a place that is there in service of the pilgrims.
Hospitality, Point #3: There was only one time I moved on because of a full albergue, (but then again, I walked in March and April) and that was Palas De Rei. My walking companion and I arrived at the "Pavillon" albergue. The caretaker said they had just taken in several groups of students and we would be in for a noisy night if we stayed there. We continued on down the road to the other Xunta albergue instead.
I didn't begrudge those students. I can't say I would have acted any differently if I had walked the Camino when I was their age! But I did question the signage I saw at Xunta albergues in Galicia. If I recall correctly, it was something along the lines of "Preference will be given to walkers and then to cyclists. Those with support vehicles will be the last to receive beds." Most of the student groups I saw had support vehicles bringing them lunch and sometimes carrying their bags. We stopped at this particular albergue before 3pm, so it's not like we arrived super late, expecting a bed. But yes, I do think unsupported walkers should be given preference when it comes to doling out beds.
Hospitality, Point #5: Spain is famous for their odd hours. "They don't each supper until 10pm!" That's why I found it odd that most albergues had a curfew around 10pm. I do understand the need for quiet hours, but it's hard to soak up the culture and nightlife when there is the danger of getting locked out of your albergue!
I do have a lot more to add on other points in the manifesto, but that's enough for now!
@jeffnd, I'm trying to work out whether this is serious, or a joke. I cannot imagine what the cost of running the bureaucratic arrangements for price controls and cost caps might be, but it won't be free, and ultimately add to everyone's costs. As for some of the other issues raised:
- if you moved on to another albergue because you were warned that it might be noisy, it doesn't appear as though you were refused a bed, you made a choice not to stay. I didn't see any large groups in that stretch of the CF in 2010, and I don't recall those that I saw around Easter around Pamplona having any support vehicles. In any case, I would think one has to trust the hospitaleros to apply the rules.
- I recall getting laundry done was expensive in a couple of places, but it would have been relatively cheaper if it had not been just my gear being done. The price clearly wasn't too high to deter you!
- At places where I felt that I might have wanted to enjoy a later meal, etc, I stayed in hostels or hotels. In the one place I stayed where it was impractical to enforce a curfew, those that returned later disrupted the whole dormitory with the noise they made. I am all in favour of a reasonable curfew. Besides, volunteer hospitaleros need their beauty sleep too.
After reading through the posts I say get rid of the Compostela document completely. Anyone who genuinely walks with the right attitude does not need one. The Credential could become a document given at the start of the pilgrimage to charge the bearer with responsibilities, Instead of primarily for the purpose of getting the Compostela.
On the subject of responsibilities, of course albergues and the Camino associations and the voluntary helpers and private owners and local landholders and villagers should serve me. Take-away fruit and produce along the way, public toilets every few kilometers, rest areas properly serviced, albergue kitchens fully stocked, wi-fi, pleasant lounge rooms to rest in, lots of electrical sockets to charge my devices, washing machines and dryers - spa bathes every now and then, to ease my aching limbs. What is wrong with Spain, that it can't get its act together! After all, it is a privilege to serve me, for I am a pilgrim. I am just astonished that anyone would have the temerity to price gauge me, a pilgrim.
Frankly I was amazed there was so little price gouging on the Camino. I was astounded at how reasonable most things were and kept thinking that these little towns and villages were missing economic opportunities by not charging us more!After reading through the posts I say get rid of the Compostela document completely. Anyone who genuinely walks with the right attitude does not need one. The Credential could become a document given at the start of the pilgrimage to charge the bearer with responsibilities, Instead of primarily for the purpose of getting the Compostela.
On the subject of responsibilities, of course albergues and the Camino associations and the voluntary helpers and private owners and local landholders and villagers should serve me. Take-away fruit and produce along the way, public toilets every few kilometers, rest areas properly serviced, albergue kitchens fully stocked, wi-fi, pleasant lounge rooms to rest in, lots of electrical sockets to charge my devices, washing machines and dryers - spa bathes every now and then, to ease my aching limbs. What is wrong with Spain, that it can't get its act together! After all, it is a privilege to serve me, for I am a pilgrim. I am just astonished that anyone would have the temerity to price gauge me, a pilgrim.
So was I. And, as a pilgrim, I was very grateful.Frankly I was amazed there was so little price gouging on the Camino. I was astounded at how reasonable most things were ..............
The Manifesto is from service providers, not the Forum, and they seem to be saying that they now are providing something that they did not sign up for. The Camino has become a tourist destination, and it is not their intention to provide cheap hospitality for tourists. I hear them, and respect their position.the "purist" folks
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