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If you post it, you are tacitly endorsing the behavior
I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot bit special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?
Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.
(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).
The video has not been publicly posted. It is awaiting moderator approval.So the video has already been posted and likely viewed, but you are going to silently delete it with a private explanation? I find that a very anemic course of action, and a terrible waste of a teaching moment for not only the vandal, but for the rest of your group as well.
I've started a discussion with the other moderators, so the issue will get attention and we will decide what to do. I'm reluctant to name and shame the person who did this stupid thing. The other moderators might feel differently or they might come up with a better way to raise the issue. I'm grateful for the input from people here, so I don't regret sharing this dilemma with you all.What is ironic to me is that, based on your response above, more focus on the vandal's actions is occurring on this Forum, than will be occurring on the Group you are helping to Moderate.
I like vacajoe's idea.I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?
The video has not been publicly posted. It is awaiting moderator approval.
I've started a discussion with the other moderators, so the issue will get attention and we will decide what to do. I'm reluctant to name and shame the person who did this stupid thing. The other moderators might feel differently or they might come up with a better way to raise the issue. I'm grateful for the input from people here, so I don't regret sharing this dilemma with you all.
I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?
Well,
You could tie him to a tree, flog him and pour salt water into his wounds. Then as he starts to recover from said flaying, place sharp needles into his eyes, then, when he recovers from that you could scrape the skin from the soles of his feet and make him walk over red hot coals.
On the other hand, you could ask him to think about the impact of his actions upon his hosts, those that will follow him and how he will feel about himself in the future. Then, invite him (and his friends?) to return, clean up his/their momentos of their visit, apologise to their hosts and then educate those that will follow in their footsteps.
Buen (finding-forgiveness) Camino
I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?
I like option one.Stuff like this really agrivates me, I’m a firm believer “in leave no trace” and even more so on “the freedom to experience your hike/journey in the manner you see fit; as long as your actions don’t infringe on another individuals same respective freedoms”
Wooosaaaah... I need to go to my happy place
Option one: allow them to post it, so that there can be some dialogue on the subject in the hopes insight may be shed on their part based on others perspectives and how it affects them; I’d preface this with... you may get flamed upon
Option two: shut the door on their request, and have no potential for a constructive outcome
And if there is no remorse or change of behavior?... the opportunity for some remorse and change of behaviour...
... saying that what was done was stupid and apologized for ...
Maybe they will after the public apology but then they would be likely to do it with most other options here that don't involve legal authorities. Meanwhile others viewing the video may see that it is not something that should be done.Saying it was stupid and apologizing are just words - I've seen many times where immature youngsters then go and brag to their friends about how they had apologized, and how the apology pulled one over on you. And then they just go and commit the same acts again.
Thank you for not glorifying this unsociable behaviour. I agree that nearly everyone who graffitis knows its wrong, advising them again does not educate them but reinforces the negative behaviour by drawing others attention to it. This was their aim in the first place - notice me I left my mark/ my rubbish/ or my sh.t in your neighbourhood- and not only don’t I care about you, but I will video and brag about it.Conclusion - After speaking with the other moderators, I deleted the video. It was not and will not be publicly shared with the group. I sent a message to the member to explain why his post was rejected. Depending on his response, we may kick him from the group. His current status means that his posts are all reviewed by moderators. I will find a way to raise the topic of graffiti / vandalism in the group - perhaps by mentioning this video or perhaps with some other content.
Your comments were very helpful. Thank you.
AGREE!It seems that your group member is attempting to do another round of graffiti-vandalism; the first was defacing something on the Camino, the second by defacing and -- in effect -- vandalizing and contaminating your forum/group. S/he is attempting to leave his/her bad behavior as a selfishly inspired "look at me" mark on the forum.
I carefully read and re-read your post to see if there was something I was missing which is creating the dilemma as to you allowing the video to be posted or not. You have the appropriate -- to me -- answer: I would absolutely refuse to post the video. I would also -- without posting the name of the group member -- post a message as a moderator which acknowledged that the video was received and why it was not allowed to be posted. Write about how upsetting it is to view this type of vandalism. Then allow other members react. I would NOT allow the vandal to post, especially if s/he tries to rationalize or defend their behavior.
If your forum/group has a Terms of Use and/or rules of conduct about posting things which are potentially harmful or demonstrates poor conduct, and I would use a broad interpretation on what this means, I would temporarily revoke posting privileges for quite a while (4 to 6 months).
You have the opportunity to help reinforce what is normal and expected and socially accepted behavior for those of us who walk Camino; this becomes even more important if the vandal was a foreign visitor to the country(s) in question.
I can understand that you might have discomfiture with the notion of censoring, but that is what having a moderated group is all about --- having a place where individuals with common interests can gather and share within the bounds of expected and acceptable behavior. Vandalism is neither expected or acceptable behavior.
You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?I guess its wrong but somehow I liked reading the text messages written all over the place. Some where inspiring on hard days. I understand it shouldnt be like that. Still on my walk this year I will take pictures of them whenever they strike me. I dont know why, at times they made me feel less alone. Like one of the small gifts that pop up in many ways along the camino.
You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?
Yes, I think asking him to delete is the right thing to do.Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.
(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).
I dont know, I saw this text quoting “a ship in harbour is safest but this is not what ships are build for” I liked that. "
He was a rake - I think it was a courtship poem!!
I agree entirely shame him set an example ,so others will knowI made it a point to state that the name should NOT be used. However, the BEHAVIOR of the individual should definitely face public shaming.
That's understandable from the point of a traveler. But think of it from the point of view of those who pass by there daily, or those who own property defaced by thoughts or thoughtlessness. If a couple dozen people came by your house everyday and wrote something on you door, window, sidewalk, fence - after a few weeks (months?) of cleaning them up you wouldn't be so interested anymore.Maybe because I'm interested in what's going on in peoples minds ... Made me wonder whom and why.
I think you should not post the video. At first I thought that just having them delete those parts would ok but upon further review I would rather the video not be posted. Yes I know there is graffiti all through the Camino and I personally hate it. I also know that this forum bends over backwards towards tolerance but some lines must be drawn and to me this is one of them.Thanks for your advice. I am leaning toward deleting the video with a private explanation. I don't feel like expelling the member from the group or calling this out in public, but I'll see how the other moderators feel.
(I like the suggestion that we could ask him to delete the image from the video - but I would rather have him erase the graffiti from the stone).
Mother of God why are you scolding him, what a reaction!!!!You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?
Mother of God why are you scolding him, what a reaction!!!!
Some of the responses here are unreal. 'Name and shame', 'use the author as an example' etc....
I reckon moderator, say it directly 2 him/her and judging by his/her reaction take it from there.... he/she may be genuinely completely oblivious 2the offence graffiti causes, and do you know why? Because we are all different. I'm guessing if they could see these posts they would be absolutely mortified and upset.
What I find most disheartening here are some of the condemning responses to this post.
No offense taken, thats the internet. People react out of their own mindset at that very moment. I do the same sometimes. There is no physical interaction, he was upset about graffiti and couldnt relate to what I was trying to say. Hence my further explanation. This works best normally. I was a combat soldier, I can handle things personally
Your reaction was fine, Caminolou.
Do you know what I find disheartening? It is not what you and many of us have posted as a condemnation of the graffiti.
I find it disheartening that bad behavior is tolerated by some to a point where there is little boundary between right and wrong.
I find it disheartening when what should easily be a common and agreed upon understanding of bad and destructive behavior is missing in action.
What I find disheartening is that those who condemn bad and destructive behavior in a meaningful manner are themselves condemned. That what is a normal response to that bad and destructive behavior is defined as being negative because it is somehow bad for anyone who is doing bad things to feel shame over their bad behavior.
What I find disheartening is that even though it has clearly been stated that no names should be mentioned when soundly condemning the bad behavior, that some keep bringing that up as the smelliest of red herrings.
As I said, you are fine with your response; it was those posting a negative response to you -- calling you to task -- who are in the wrong here.
If you feel I'm in the wrong fair enough. I think this issue could have been resolved with a direct msg to the author. I personally thought some of the reactions were way ott and harsh. Again, just my opinion which clearly is not welcome.
If you feel I'm in the wrong fair enough. I think this issue could have been resolved with a direct msg to the author. I personally thought some of the reactions were way ott and harsh. Again, just my opinion which clearly is not welcome.
I also agree with Vacajoe even though he is a fireman.If you post it, you are tacitly endorsing the behavior - your group has a moderator for a reason, no? I would inform the author that vandalism is not supported by your forum and offer to post the video once that portion is removed from their submission.
I also agree with Vacajoe even though he is a fireman.
I must say I do love the way you articulate your point there! I think I perhaps reacted and sent my msg a little quickly. You clearly think before you post and therefore get your point of view across in a much better manner than I very poorly attempted to.My comments are only focused on the content that is posted, not on the individual making the post. I do not know you as a person, so the only thing I can comment on is what is posted . . . not just by you, but others who have shared similar sentiments. While we obviously disagree on this issue, we may very well agree on many other issues and have a lot in common. Or not. This just underscores how important it is to limit disagreements to that which is said, and not to those who are posting.
The free marketplace of ideas is tricky; when one publicly expresses an opinion there will always be a risk of others disagreeing with that opinion. That back and forth dialogue is healthy, though. It allows participants and readers to absorb what is said and then decide what position they agree with. One puts forth an idea or opinion in that marketplace, and then the public decides what they wish to buy or reject.
The tricky part is how the dialogue is conducted. Logical and rational persuasion within appropriate rhetorical boundaries is healthy. It is when one side of the debate can no longer make a rational argument, but instead resorts to non sequiturs, name calling, labeling, and ad hominems where the discussion degenerates into a diseased, gangrenous infection which is then useless and best cut off.
The above is why I enjoy this Forum, and why it is one of very few social media sites which I participate in. The Moderators do a terrific job of amputating gangrenous postings without hacking off large potions of healthy tissue.
Yes, I disagree with your opinion on this issue. And again, you disagree with me. But what we apparently share as enthusiasts about Camino is the larger binding factor we have in common.
I guess its not anymore now. I am suffering from ptsd, it means I have a short fuse and a long memory. Working on it.Your reaction was fine, Caminolou.
I must say I do love the way you articulate your point there! I think I perhapsYou clearly think before you post and therefore get your point of view across in a much better manner than I very poorly attempted to.
By the way I hate graffiti of any nature and was by no means defending the author! I have learned to think before I type..... thank you
While we obviously disagree on this issue, we may very well agree on many other issues and have a lot in common. Or not.
The tricky part is how the dialogue is conducted.
Yes, I disagree with your opinion on this issue. And again, you disagree with me.
what we apparently share as enthusiasts about Camino is the larger binding factor we have in common.
In the army thats translated to:
F you
I will F you
F you again
Lets be friends.
You see less words are clearer. Correct me if Im wrong.
As a combat veteran out of Vietnam, I understand where you are coming from.
What about burning clothes? Or discarding old boots by the side of the road. Or leaving notes along the way? All these things irritate me as someone else has to clean the area periodically or the trail would become impassable.
What about burning clothes? Or discarding old boots by the side of the road. Or leaving notes along the way? All these things irritate me as someone else has to clean the area periodically or the trail would become impassable.
Totally unacceptable. How about sending the video clip AND contact infomation to the authorities? As well as telling them NO and deleteing them. There need to be some consequences for stupidity.I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?
Graffiti is one thing that I appreciate in certain contexts but not in others; likely done by locals.View attachment 51665
HYOH
Hidden trail cameras and stiff jail sentences may be the only deterrent, some tourists in Thailand were caught last year and were facing up to 10 years!
View attachment 51678
Yes, that happens.You were inspired by illegal graffiti? Childishly scrawled out words on km markers and trash bins? Really?
Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.
A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.
I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.
Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.
A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.
I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.
Horrible!I wouldn't support the idea of positing it WITH the graffiti included but it would be entertaining to see what the viewers would say if it did get posted. evil laugh I am sure the viewers would tear him up after viewing it and that might be a learning lesson.
Graffiti is pure mindless vandalism, nothing less. The old saying " You can't fix stupid" rings true here. Why someone has to disrespect the nation of Spain and something as beautiful in all ways as the Camino is beyond me and undoubtedly 99% of all others!
Having worked in the stone business for 35+ years there was nothing worse than seeing where someone had decided to deface a building you had finished and walked away from feeling proud of the job you had done. It is hard to find a granite km marker in Galicia that has not been defaced, I can guarantee that the person that made that marker felt proud of the job he had done and now some mindless idiot has ruined it.
With natural stone it is not just a case of cleaning it, the stone absorbs the paint or marker and often sandblasting is the only fix, however that removes part of the stone and changes something that could been made several hundred years ago for ever. The only way to reduce graffiti is to remove it immediately after it is done otherwise someone else will feel the need to add to it, unfortunately someone has to do this on a daily basis.
Hidden trail cameras and stiff jail sentences may be the only deterrent, some tourists in Thailand were caught last year and were facing up to 10 years!
View attachment 51678
I like this. Not because it may or may not reflect on anyone, or anything, on this thread. Just that it makes me giggle.Ferris Bueller, " It's understanding that makes it possible for people like us to tolerate a person like yourself."
I'm one of the moderators of a camino-related, online, group. A member of the group has uploaded a video of his camino. It requires moderator approval before it is published for everyone in the group to view.
When I watched the video, I discovered that this person and his friends wrote their names and a short message in black marker pen on a stone shell. I recognize this shell - While it's not a historic monument, it makes an otherwise unlovely spot somewhat special. I took a photograph of it a couple of years ago before it had any graffiti on it. I'm horrified that a person within my "circle" thinks that it's appropriate to deface things along the way. He appears to be proud of this vandalism, since it appears at the start and end of the video.
How do you think I should handle this? I could disallow his post and let him know why. I could approve the video and let other members of the group react. I could remove him from the group...
Any thoughts?
I like this. Not because it may or may not reflect on anyone, or anything, on this thread. Just that it makes me giggle.
I had to google Ferris Bueller and learned of him and the film for the first time. I missed a few things back in the 80’s when I was busy raising my kids - I admit, some of those things might have been less significant than others.And Ferris Bueller’s Day Off is still a pretty funny film that stands the test of time. My partner and I quote from it frequently and for a number of different situations
Traa perception is an interesting thing..Mother of God why are you scolding him, what a reaction!!!!
Graffiti may show a lack of respect for the community but we need to remember the context. We are monkeys. Evolved somewhat but still close. 98% common DNA.
A troupe will be controlled by a small clique. There will be outliers that orbit the territory, want in, but not at any price. They feel they should not be expected to kowtow to the clique. And to be honest I'm not comfortable with the authoritarian response to minor defiance The name and shame policy is pure patriarchy. And it is about maintaining the status quo. Asserting the established powers.
I'm not sure that the job of a religious forum is to assert authority over nonconformists.
Oh, I thought common decency and respect for things that are not yours was okay to expect of others and others to sense an obligation for such.
The "patriarchy" comment is just laughable...seriously laughable.
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