13 stages?

[tijax]

I am familiar with the 32/33 stages of the camino, but have also seen mentioned the 13 stages referred to from the Liber sanctis Jacobi, or Codex Calixtinus but can find nowhere that actually lists the 13 stages. Is there anyone out there please that knows where or what the 13 stages are?
Thanks, tijax

 

[sillydoll]

St Michel to Viscarret
Pamplona
Estella
Najera
Burgos
Fromista
Sahagun
Leon
Rabanal
Villafranca
Triacastela
Palas de Rei
Santiago

From The Pilgrimgs Guide to the Camino de Santiago by Elias Valiña

PS: In the 12thc, pilgrims didn't go through Sarria although that is now the most popular starting point for Spanish pilgrims.

 

[jpflavin1]

So Sil, Is St. Michel the original starting point vs. St. Jean. If so, when did the switch occur?

Joe

 

[sillydoll]

Well, there were many starting places! The Codex also describes the route through the Somport Pass. I don't think there was a switch from St Jean to St Michel, as such. Pilgrims probably joined whatever road was easiest for them.
In the LIber Sancti Jacobi, after describing the four roads through France, Aimery Picaud started his 'guide' from St Michel and wrote that from the pass of Cize there were 13 stages to Santiago. He writes about the important places along the way and describes the village of St Michel being the first of the most important places, then the Hospice of Roland (the monastery at Roncesvalles) then the village of Burguette, Viscarret, Larrasoña and Pamplona. He doesn't mention St jean Pied de Port.
According to Don Elias Valiña - from the 9th c St Jean Pied de Port was an administrative region of the Kingdom of Navarre. It was only incorporated into France in the 17th century (under the treaty of the Pyrenees). So when Aimery Picaud arrived in the region it was still a favourite place of the Kings of Navarre.
St Michel is slightly to the left of the route from St Jean on the road coming from Saint Jean le Vieux.
Interestingly, the priory of St Mary Magdalene was situated where Orisson is today.

 

[andy.d]

I assume the historic starting point was where you lived?

Andy

 

[grayland]

The starting point would have to be where you lived. There was no transportation to a "starting point" so they just walked out the front door and started toward Santiago and picked up the nominal Camino somewhere along the way.

 

[Peter Robins]

So Sil, Is St. Michel the original starting point vs. St. Jean. If so, when did the switch occur?

both the list of stages and the list of places in the Codex start at St Michel, at the foot of the pass ('pied de port') on the north side of the Pyrenees. The road followed is much the same as the Roman road, though for the Romans the pied de port, Imus Pyreneus, was what is now called St Jean-le-Vieux. This was sacked by Richard the Lionheart in 1177, i.e. shortly after the Codex. The modern St Jean-Pied-de-Port was one of two 'new towns' (along with St Palais) created by Navarre in the early 13th, when the area north of the Pyrenees (still known as Basse Navarre) became part of Navarre (bequeathed by Richard's widow Berengaria to her brother Sancho of Navarre). To connect these 2 parts of Navarre, the valley road via St Jean PdP and Valcarlos was improved, and became the main road in place of the Roman crossing direct from St Jean-le-Vieux over the much higher Port de Cise. After this, all the pilgrim accounts that I'm aware of used this lower, simpler road. The route used by modern pilgrims - Ostabat, St Jean-le-Vieux, St Jean-Pied-de-Port, Port de Cise, Roncesvalles - is a modern invention, which makes little sense for getting from A (St Jean-le-Vieux) to B (Roncesvalles), but has the advantage of good views! - and of course enables people to use the facilities, like accommodation, of the only town in the area, St Jean PdP. (And to use that other modern invention, the railway line from Bayonne.)

 

[sillydoll]

Thanks Peter - I was hoping you would clarify!

Some years ago a forum member made a comment that everyone should start at Le Puy because "that was the most historical route on record".

If you read about the so called Le Puy route on Peter's website (and this website,
http://www.saint-jacques.info/anglais/lepuy.htm) you will learn that the idea of thousands of pilgrims following Bishop Godesalc on the route to Santiago is just another Camino urban legend.
Just as the Codex Calixtinus was lost in the archives of the Santiago Cathderal for hundreds of years, so was the evidence of Godesalc's pilgrimagte to Santiago lost for over a thousand years.

In 1866 Léopold Delisle, conservator at the National Library in Paris, rediscovered, in an authentic manuscript of the Xth century the mention of the voyage to Compostela of the bishop of Le Puy, Godescalc, in 951.

The Saint-Jacques,info website stresses the fact that, " ... this pilgrimage of Godescalc had been forgotten about for a thousand years and was only exhumed from the archives in the XIXth century, and what's more was only known to a small circle of local specialists in Le Puy. This mention stated nothing more than what the monk Gomez had written, in particular, nothing on the route that the bishop had taken in the winter of 951, nothing further on his « numerous retinue »... and that, "Until the middle of the XXth century, Le Puy took no notice of Compostela"

There is a saying, 'the path is made by walking' so perhaps our generation are laying down what in future will be described as the 'authentic paths' to Santiago de Compostela.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The Romans took the best rights-of-way for roads, many of which are highways today. Find the Roman road, and you probably will find the pilgrim path. Both France and Spain have projects to locate all the Roman roads. I have lost my bookmark to their databases, but many are isolated bits that probably connect to others. They often are preserved only because they became borders to farmers' fields. No one wanted to upset the Centurion by plowing his road!

 

[Peter Robins]

PS. The Codex does mention St Jean (le Vieux), not in the list of places but as one of the places where there was an accursed boatman. Interestingly, the reason Richard LH gave for sacking the place - and more particularly the castle - was because of the excessive tolls they charged (though cynics might think that the fact that they were opposed to him might have had something to do with it). So it seems that the Codex's anathema didn't have any effect

There is a small museum in St Jean about the Roman remains, though I've not been in it.

If you're interested, I've plotted all the places listed in the Codex at http://pilgrim.peterrobins.co.uk/itineraries/codex.html

 

[nc6000]

I found this thread while searching the site for Fromista. I have 15 walking days in April and plan to start from St Jean and hoped to get as far as Fromista so I can spend a day or two in the Meseta.

This thread seems to be about people doing the whole Camino in 13 stages, approx 60KM per day, which looks very difficult.

Has anyone here tried this?

 

[sillydoll]

A woman ran the Camino in 12 days in 2010.
Cyclist can cover it in less than 13 stages.
This thread refers to the 13 stages mentioned by a French priest on horseback in the 12th Century. He must've just about killed those poor horses with some of his longer stages!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

As a stunt, an ultramarathoner did it in 9+, and declared it a world record.

I finished the trail in the Winter of 2011 – World Record – 9 days, 5 hours, 29 minutes. -Jenny Biondi Anderson

Of course, many bicyclists have done it in less, so it is only a record if you accept her criteria. I met a one-legged pilgrim that did it in 33 days, and he has the record for one-legged pilgrims. Then there is the earliest, the longest, the youngest, the latest, the oldest, and the wheelchairs.

I met two German soldiers aiming for two-weeks, and I am betting they made it.