Divine Providence

[Catholic_Chris]

Hello
I am planning on walking from my front door near Burton-on-Trent in the UK to Santiago de Compostela. I will hopefully be starting this pilgrimage at the end of Easter 2011. I will be relying on Divine Providence, my one man tent and all i can carry on my back. I will not be taking any money and my ferry fare to france and my flight fare back will be provided by my friends in my local church (they insisted - Divine Providence at work).

I am doing it this way because it is my trust in God to provide. This was the way all the early pilgrims including St James himself travelled.

I have yet to decide on which Camino i will walk, however i have 4 months in which to complete my pilgrimage so am not rushed for time. I will try and visit as many shrines and catholic places of worship as possible on route.

Any comments welcome
Chris

 

[nellpilgrim]

Hi Chris,
From the sound of it I'm pretty sure your Camino qualifies as either White or Green martyrdom but I'm not quite sure just which one of the two is the best 'fit'!
Hope all goes well and I'll light a candle for you and your journey.
Nell

 

[Theo]

Hi,

HERE a post that can suggest to you a solution for an alternative route from UK to Santiago via the Mont-St-Michel shrine.

Theo

 

[sillydoll]

Chris, I hope you have better luck than Gareth (a forum member who was going to Rome to become a priest) who tried to do a similar camino from England a couple of years ago.
Gareth found it really hard going, especially in France where the French said that they were fed up with mendicant Englishmen expecting the local French population to feed and provide for them when they were struggling through the worst economic crisis in decades. This is probably not unexpected when you consider that a 2009 poll showed that 31% of the French population are atheist and 26% agnostic. With the recent controversial expulsion of the Romas in France anyone walking the countryside with a begging bowl is going to be eyed with suspicion!
Unlike the early pilgrims (who were often sponsored by their parish or village) you can at least make a phone call home to be rescued if you find yourself starving to death!

 

[AJ]

I am doing it this way because it is my trust in God to provide. This was the way all the early pilgrims including St James himself travelled.

Chris

"Trust in God, but tie your camels"

I have a friend, originally from Germany, who lives in Thailand. He has been a buddhist monk for 30 years. Every year he spends a few months in Europe without money, trusting in God to provide. It works for him, but I have to observe that he has a lot of friends and relatives in Europe!

 

[Catholic_Chris]

Unlike the early pilgrims (who were often sponsored by their parish or village) you can at least make a phone call home to be rescued if you find yourself starving to death!

Hi. A lot of early pilgrims were poor and so were there churches. Many would have had to rely on God providing their needs. Of course this comes through God's grace working through others and of the pilgrims own strength of faith. I trust God implicitly and I will not starve Also as i will have no money or mobile phone or indeed anything other than my tent, my stove, my bible and the food i can carry I will not be able to "call home to be rescued"

As for

Gareth found it really hard going, especially in France where the French said that they were fed up with mendicant Englishmen expecting the local French population to feed and provide for them when they were struggling through the worst economic crisis in decades. This is probably not unexpected when you consider that a 2009 poll showed that 31% of the French population are atheist and 26% agnostic. With the recent controversial expulsion of the Romas in France anyone walking the countryside with a begging bowl is going to be eyed with suspicion!

First I know the generalisation of the percieved hostilities between the french and the english. A lot of this is hype perpetuated by a minority. I have been to France on a number of occasions and have never experienced difficulties. Also, i think you misunderstand Divine Providence in this instance. I will not be begging at all That is not what it means to rely on God.
Oh and polls are like statistics, depends who is gathering the information and why. Never taken notice of either

 

[sillydoll]

Chris - the Camino welcomes all sorts of pilgrims - those who bring economic relief to the people and villages they pass through on the way and those who walk as mendicants.
I wish you the best of everything for your pilgrimage, I really do, and I hope you have a wonderful, affirming story to tell us when you reach Santiago.
It will go a long way to restoring our faith in humanity if you find open doors, sharing, welcome and nothing but kindness long the way.
Bendigáis!!

 

[nellpilgrim]

Hi Chris,
No doubt you have many skills and talents that will benefit others on route, but even the simple gift of being present for someone else enables you to be part of the 'divine providence' bestowed on other pilgrims.
Pilgrimage can also be defined by what we give rather than what we receive. And the opportunity to make a meaningful 'donation' to others whether that's helping to make a meal or cleaning the loos in your albergue, picking up some rubbish on the trail or 'just listening' to another pilgrim is often a gift in itself.
Nell

 

[Catholic_Chris]

I wish you the best of everything for your pilgrimage. It will go a long way to restoring our faith in humanity if you find open doors, sharing, welcome and nothing but kindness long the way.
Bendigáis!!

Many thanks for your kind wish
I believe that most people would rather be sharing, welcoming and kind than selfish, obstructive and rude given the opportunity. This is my experience of life so far (I am 43). If one is willing to -

Hi Chris,
give rather than ... receive.
Nell

then I find this opens up most peoples hearts. And after all - that should be what life in general is about. Divine Providence for me doesn't mean what i can 'get out' of life, rather that what i am giving is God's Will and thus He will provide my needs (not the same as my wants lol).

I will only use "free" albergues where available and will indeed

make a meal or clean the loos

or whatever I can offer in payment for hospitality. Mainly I will camp.

However this is a side path I am taking to the pilgrimage that is my whole life and I will treat it the same as I have treated my life journey so far I am no saint, however, as are all of us, I am called to be one so we should not make any 'pilgrimage' any different to our lifes pilgrimage except in a way that is more giving and loving to those we meet and, in my case, more trusting of God to provide my basic needs.

As for

I hope you have a wonderful, affirming story to tell us when you reach Santiago.

well I doubt i will discuss it lol. A lot of people here have stories to tell - I don't
However I will let you know

if (I) find open doors, sharing, welcome and nothing but kindness long the way.

or not Chris

 

[Catholic_Chris]

Hi,

HERE a post that can suggest to you a solution for an alternative route from UK to Santiago via the Mont-St-Michel shrine.

Theo

Thanks Theo

 

[skilsaw]

Hi Chris,
I volunteered in a parochial albergue for two weeks this year. We charged no fee and didn't ask for donations, but the opportunity to give was there. During my stay we welcomed 2 homeless men and provided all the hospitality we provided to other pilgrims.

You seem to be hoping to recreate a medieval spiritual pilgrimage experience and have very fixed ideas on how that should be. I hope you are flexible and open so that if you do not experience what you expect, you will receive graciously what the camino does provide.

A small detail. If the customs inspectors figure you out, they will not let you into France. You will need the resources to support yourself to be able to cross the border.

Best wishes,
David, Victoria, Canada

 

[Rebekah Scott]

David, he´s coming over from UK. No customs inspectors. He has a right to be in France, as a citizen of an EU-member country.

Mendicants/"gentlemen of the road" are a big issue these days on the camino. I wish you every kind of luck. But I hope you are also ready to be referred-to as a "locust" by the locals. Some of my neighbors see mendicants as freeloaders sponging off of people who themselves can´t afford to take months off work to wander around a foreign country asking for free stuff.

You´re welcome at the Peaceable in Moratinos, especially as you´ve made clear you are willing to exchange work for your room and board... (that´s the difference between a mendicant and a freeloader, I figure; we see plenty of both). But make sure you don´t knock on the wrong door on your way through town!

Rebekah

 

[Catholic_Chris]

Hi Chris,
You seem to be hoping to recreate a medieval spiritual pilgrimage experience and have very fixed ideas on how that should be. I hope you are flexible and open so that if you do not experience what you expect, you will receive graciously what the camino does provide.

Hi David
Thank you for your comments. However I have no fixed ideas nor wish to "recreate a medieval spiritual pilgrimage experience " I am just doing my third pilgrimage the same way i did my last two. The first was a ten day pilgrimage to Walsingham UK and the second was a 9 week pilgrimage to Rome. On both pilgrimages I fould much support and love. so yes I am very flexible and graciously receive ANY provisions, support, love, friendship from anyone and give the same in return!

A small detail. If the customs inspectors figure you out, they will not let you into France. You will need the resources to support yourself to be able to cross the border.

I am an EU citizen??

Chris

 

[Catholic_Chris]

Re: Divine Providence Clarification

Mendicants/"gentlemen of the road" are a big issue these days on the camino. I wish you every kind of luck. But I hope you are also ready to be referred-to as a "locust" by the locals. Some of my neighbors see mendicants as freeloaders sponging off of people who themselves can´t afford to take months off work to wander around a foreign country asking for free stuff.

Hi Rebekah
Thank you for your comments.
I think i need to clarify something. I am not a Mendicant nor a "gentlemen of the road".
I am a pilgrim wishing to make another pilgrimage relying on Gods Providence. I am not a freeloader nor someone who can afford to take time off work "to wander around a foreign country asking for free stuff" as you put it.
What generosity and love i receive will be worked through people by God alone as will anything i am able to give.
I have lived the last few years of my life giving myself where and when i can in various ways and have been blessed by grace to be in good health and have received much.

You´re welcome at the Peaceable in Moratinos, especially as you´ve made clear you are willing to exchange work for your room and board... (that´s the difference between a mendicant and a freeloader, I figure; we see plenty of both). But make sure you don´t knock on the wrong door on your way through town!
Rebekah

Thank you for your welcome at "the Peaceable in Moratinos"

As mentioned already I am not a mendicant which http://www.dictionary.com describes as :-

men·di·cant   /ˈmɛndɪkənt/ [men-di-kuhnt]
–adjective
1. begging; practicing begging; living on alms.
2. pertaining to or characteristic of a beggar.
–noun
3. a person who lives by begging; beggar.
4. a member of any of several orders of friars that originally forbade ownership of property, subsisting mostly on alms.

I never beg as that is NOT living by divine providence!

Nor am I a freeload(er) which http://www.dictionary.com describes as :-

free·load   /ˈfriˈloʊd, -ˌloʊd/ [free-lohd, -lohd]
–verb (used without object) Informal .
1. to take advantage of others for free food, entertainment, etc.
–verb (used with object)
2. to get by freeloading: He freeloaded several meals a week.

As you can see there is little real difference between a Mendicant or a freelaoder!

As i said if anyone offers me help in any way then i always offer my services in return. Sometimes Gods grace works in such a way that the actual giving is satisfaction enough - it is for me. I often give with out receiving a "reward" or "payment" in the way society sees reward and payment yet I am in good health, have many friends and met many wonderful people who have enriched me and hopefully have been enriched by my aquaintance.

Yes, sometimes I offer myself in return for shelter or food and i offer what i am able to give. Sometimes it is manual labour, sometimes simply telling a tale of my experiences and other times just a listening ear. In my experience a little food or shelter has often been seem as a trivial gift in return for a sympathetic (though more often empathetic!) "stranger" who has the time to listen.

I find it hard to express myself in text and you may find what i am saying as somewhat incredulous in this day and age though in my experience it is the norm.

I do not "knock on doors" at all!

God bless
Chris

 

[Rebekah Scott]

catholic chris
I am not accusing you of anything. I´m giving you a heads-up on an attitude you may well encounter.

Best of luck on your journey.
Reb.

 

[PilgrimChris]

Hello catholic chris.
Your post caught my eye for a few reasons.
First we share the same christian name lol. Also it seems we are from the same neck of the woods!
I admire your willingness to trust God to provide, though the charity of others, your needs on your pilgrimage. Whilst it is certainly true that medieval pilgrims often had no choice but to undertake their pilgrimage this way it is also true that the the refugios were always free to pilgrims as a pilgrim was seen as someone almost holy. The religious orders at that time were many and prosperous and it was seen as a privilege to any catholic to help a pilgrim on his sacred journey. Also catholicism was the only christian denomination at that time - the birth pangs of the various protestations didnt really start occuring until the late 15th early 16th centuries and thus the devotion to local saints especially one of such importance as St. James was far greater than today for most catholics.
Today however, as you must be aware, we live in a very different climate. Without going into areas of faith too deeply it is a more secular world today and although peoples fears are as important today as ever, we seem a far more intolerant people for all our 'enlightenment'.
I say this not to be disparaging to any individual but rather in the hope that you undertand that in an age when dying for your beliefs was the greatest act of faith giving hospitality to pilgrims was done unthinkingly and a source of great pride for the local villages that could offer support. Today, thanks to the charity of the hospitaleros, pilgrims can once again travel their camino relatively cheaply and with a warm friendly welcome in the refugios.
However, as has already been gently pointed out, a pilgrim with little means is not seen as the 'blessing' he/she once was.
However, by all accounts you should continue on your journey in whatever way you choose. It is, after all YOUR camino and although there are many different reasons why people walk to Santiago de Compostela today, we are all journeying because we seek SOMETHING and it is this i think that binds each pilgrim and those who support them in something ultimately together.
I see your are hoping to begin your own camino after Easter. I am hoping to reach Santiago by then lol.
Good luck and God if with you. The truest love is that which seeks to give without thought of receiving. It is Gods love and upon which your depending. Emulate Him and others on your journey too will be touched by Divine Providence.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

beautifully put, PilgrimChris.
I seem to be raining on everyone´s parade these days!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Any divine providence is pretty indirect. Largess comes from kind and generous people, who may have been inspired by their religion, but the food, money, and lodging that is offered is offered by people, not anyone divine, and there is no entitlement granted even though that generosity has been offered for centuries. Some pilgrims in the middle ages were compelled to go and may have had to rely on the kindness of strangers. Today the pilgrimage is completely optional -- you don't have to go, and you can quit any time. Anyone who does a pilgrimage with the intent that "the Camino will provide" should know that he really is expecting others to provide. Wrapping it up in a bunch of religious or spiritual jargon does not change the basic expectation.

If that expectation rankles some along the way when it is perceived as freeloading, it is quite a logical reaction. I met a very personable Dutchman just before Cahors who had walked from his home in the Netherlands. He said that he had made it all the way without money or paying for anything. He did not ask me for anything after offering his tale, but when it became clear that I was not going to give him anything, he moved right along. I wasn't a resource any longer, so I was not useful to him. His daily task was to find the resources he could utilize, not unlike the hunter-gatherers of yore. I have thought about him regularly, and I still cannot decide if what he was doing was "spiritual."

 

[PilgrimChris]

I seem to be raining on everyone´s parade these days!

Ah Rebekah, without a little rain on a sunny day we would not see the rainbow . And what could be more beautiful than that?
God bless you and keep you just as you are - thoughtful, kind and helpful in these forums!

 

[PilgrimChris]

but the food, money, and lodging that is offered is offered by people, not anyone divine

Anyone who does a pilgrimage with the intent that "the Camino will provide" should know that he really is expecting others to provide. Wrapping it up in a bunch of religious or spiritual jargon does not change the basic expectation.

Dear Falcan
Please understand that to some people of faith, everything that is offered by people to others IS divine providence as it is seen as God working through people. Again this is a deeper debate than necessary here and i just wanted to ensure that one person's beliefs are treated as fairly as another. Expectation in God is quite different from expectation in people Falcan. To those who think other than you it is a very real belief. And surely one would not argue that one's belief is truer, better, more reasonable etc than anothers? That way madness and destruction lie.

After meeting your "personable" dutch fellow pilgrim who shared his tale with you you say you offered nothing in return? You offered a listening ear surely You say the man asked nothing of you? Perhaps the conversation had died up between the two of you and he moved on. Nothing unusual about that on a pilgrimage Did your thoughts on you being some sort of commodity to that personable man materialise at the time you were speaking to him? He may have felt the "vibes" eminating from you and moved on rather than make you feel any more uncomfortable about the thought of maybe you feeling you had to offerer him a share of your food. Maybe your thoughts came in "hindsight" - not always as good a way of reflection it is made out to be

Let us not use disparaging language that could incite. Sometimes it is better to be quiet than to comment if our comments hold only bitterness or at the least nothing constructive. I was given this advise many years ago and although i often fail to follow it myself :? I accept it's wisdom
God bless you Falcon and please don't be offended by that comment if you have no God. If that is the case my good wishes are still valid.
Chris

 

[CaroleH]

Any divine providence is pretty indirect. Largess comes from kind and generous people, who may have been inspired by their religion, but the food, money, and lodging that is offered is offered by people, not anyone divine, and there is no entitlement granted even though that generosity has been offered for centuries. Some pilgrims in the middle ages were compelled to go and may have had to rely on the kindness of strangers. Today the pilgrimage is completely optional -- you don't have to go, and you can quit any time.

. . . . . . . . . .

Falcon, you know I don't always see eye to eye with you, but on this I agree. Spain is now only about 90% practising catholic.... the towns and villages along all the camino routes will only support the camino if there is some thing in it for them, they don't want to be used by modern day trekkers. We have all seen competition between accomodacions, open warfare in fact. They need the money and support. Religious pilgrims who are able to stay at convents, and other religious institutions along the way, are a different kettle of fish, but the majority of us need to support the already generous camino network. Sorry if I have offended anyone, but this is now and not the past.

 

[PilgrimChris]

... the towns and villages along all the camino routes will only support the camino if there is some thing in it for them, they don't want to be used by modern day trekkers.... but the majority of us need to support the already generous camino network..... Sorry if I have offended anyone, but this is now and not the past.

Dear Carole

Hello!

I read catholic_chris' original post and he certainly does not appear to be a "modern day trekker" nor a mendicant etc. I like to look at the good in all people and in these forums all we can do is trust in what people say about themselves. After all we have no reason to do otherwise do we?

As for the support of pilgrims by "towns and villages along the camino routes" only being given if there is "some thing in it for them" surely this could be seen as insulting to all the refugios, albergues, monasteries, churches and private houses that only ask for a donation to cover costs and to the hospitaleras and volunteers who help keep these places running at cost to themselves not to mention the very kind spanish people who offer directions, permission to camp freely on their land or even just a friendly smile to those passing pilgrims?

catholic_chris also stated he was willing to work in any way suitable for any generosity shown him so i think that covers your valid point of supporting the camino network - support doesn't always mean money after all

You certainly haven't offended me Carole though i am humbled by your sentiment not to offend . Indeed I agree with all your points - just not in the case of catholic_chris whom none of them seem to apply and as this thread was started by him in good faith let us all wish him well on his journey and let us not try to interpret his motives - rather let us take them at face value as surely that is the better path?

God bless you Carole or please accept my kindest regards if you prefer
Chris

 

[+@^^]

"God helps those who help themselves!"
Hezekiah 6:1

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Tamtamplin is using a popular Protestant inside joke, quoting the Book of Hezekiah.
There is no book of Hezekiah in the Bible. And that statement, so often attributed to divine scripture, is just another saying!

(sorry, it kinda is lost in translation)

 

[PilgrimChris]

An interesting area this Rebekah.

Actually the joke is on those who do not know scripture rather than an inside joke by Protestants.

George Barna reports that 8 out of 10 Americans believe the statement "God helps those who help themselves" is in the Bible [Lutzer p173] and as we know America is an overwhelmingly Protestant country.

Its routes can be traced to the writings of Aesop who said "the gods help them that help themselves".
Euripides, a greek philosopher, said also "Try first thyself, and after, call on God".
George Herbert in the 17th century wrote "Help thyself and God will help thee".
We receive our present version from Benjamin Franklin who wrote "God helps those who help themselves". [Poor Richards Almanac 1757] though even this version itself originated in Algerman Sydney in 1698 in an article titled Discourses Concerning Goverment.
Franklin himself was a deist and so believed that God did not play an cavito role in mens lives. In his point of they if man was not able to help himself, then man was without hope.

Most importantly not only is this 'verse' not found in the Bible, it is unbiblical in its meaning. It is exactly the opposite of the message of scripture.
(see Jer 17:5, Prov 28:26, Isiah 25:4 and Romans 5:6 for examples)

The use of the name Hezikia to perpetuate this lie is even more intriguing when you know that Hezikiah was a devout and God favoured king of Judah in scripture.
(see Isaiah 36- 39 inc)

God bless us all.
Chris

 

[CaroleH]

.. the towns and villages along all the camino routes will only support the camino if there is some thing in it for them,.......

...Bad choice of words there on my part, sorry. The camino network and infrastructure is extensive and wonderfully helpful, and IMHO needs all the support we can give it.... physical, spiritual, religious and fiscal.
Buen camino a todos. Carole

 

[Caminando]

Any divine providence is pretty indirect. Largess comes from kind and generous people, who may have been inspired by their religion, but the food, money, and lodging that is offered is offered by people, not anyone divine, and there is no entitlement granted even though that generosity has been offered for centuries. Some pilgrims in the middle ages were compelled to go and may have had to rely on the kindness of strangers. Today the pilgrimage is completely optional -- you don't have to go, and you can quit any time. Anyone who does a pilgrimage with the intent that "the Camino will provide" should know that he really is expecting others to provide. Wrapping it up in a bunch of religious or spiritual jargon does not change the basic expectation.

If that expectation rankles some along the way when it is perceived as freeloading, it is quite a logical reaction. I met a very personable Dutchman just before Cahors who had walked from his home in the Netherlands. He said that he had made it all the way without money or paying for anything. He did not ask me for anything after offering his tale, but when it became clear that I was not going to give him anything, he moved right along. I wasn't a resource any longer, so I was not useful to him. His daily task was to find the resources he could utilize, not unlike the hunter-gatherers of yore. I have thought about him regularly, and I still cannot decide if what he was doing was "spiritual."

Above, an elegant yet practical response to the question.




Chris, I recently spent the night near SDC in a refugio where one of the alberguistas was a Spanish man on a velo. He was what could be called an eternal pilgrim, going up and down the caminos, over the long term. He enjoyed a smoke in the kitchen, and hung his sweaty clothes to dry in the public space where I had gone to escape his smoke. I returned to the kitchen and asked him to stop, which I should have done first of all. In that refugio, hidden under the hospitalero's desk where only he could see it, was a sheet of photos, mugshots if you like, of "undesirables". I'm not saying that you are the same as these people, but I mention it to show the kind of thing you are up against in (if I may say so) your dream of pilgrimage which can depend so much on the giving of others. Perceptions are important.

I would suggest that, as you say you are in good health, that you plan well for your camino by taking some job beforehand and so be able to travel independently. Do that job in the spirit of preparation for an important journey, the preparation being as important as the camino itself. Right thinking, right preparation?

Anyway, have a fulfilling camino!

Buen camino

 

[RENSHAW]

Every time I sign into this forum I think of this thread and the ethics involved. Did Catholic_Chris ever go on his Camino? Perhaps Pilgrimchris Knows?

In 2003 I did meet a Pilgrim who had no money at all . I felt honored cooking for two and sharing my bottle of wine with him that evening. It made me feel good that I could give something back to the Camino. I think I will be going straight to heaven with those extra points scored. :mrgreen:

 

[+@^^]

@ Renshaw
in the words of the great Mohammed Ali the greatest ever world heavy weight boxer fighter...
"everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die"

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Did Catholic_Chris ever go on his Camino?

He has not visited the Forum since October 15, 2010, so it is difficult to guess.

 

[RENSHAW]

@ Renshaw
in the words of the great Mohammed Ali the greatest ever world heavy weight boxer fighter...
"everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die"

Excellent! - Your good sense of Humor is always appreciated Broer

 

[KiwiNomad06]

Every time I sign into this forum I think of this thread and the ethics involved. Did Catholic_Chris ever go on his Camino? Perhaps Pilgrimchris Knows? :

There is a PilgrimChris who followed me on Twitter- still planning his Camino journey. http://new.socialhiking.org.uk/user/pro ... lgrimChris. May not be the same person though.
Margaret

 

[PilgrimChris]

There is a PilgrimChris who followed me on Twitter- still planning his Camino journey. http://new.socialhiking.org.uk/user/pro ... lgrimChris. May not be the same person though.
Margaret

I am one and the same Margaret
Just not been on these forums for a while.

As for Catholic_Chris.... he has been on his camino, returned and is planning his next one