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Giant solar panels...How would you recharge?
That is the next problem. Anyway ours take about three and a half hour before recharged completely. . Not very handyHow would you recharge?
... So, If Pilgrim going to use Electric assisted Bicycle for Camino, will he qualify for the passport stamp and final certificate?...
Ban cyclists? Discuss
Laurie is correct. The Pilgrims' Office hasn't yet caught up with the issue of electric bikes. My personal view is that essentially there is no difference between these electric bikes and motor bikes for example and therefore the Compostela should not be issued.
People with special needs apart I think it is debatable whether cyclists in general should be issued with credenciales, allowed to use albergues and recieve the Compostela. I realise this is controversial and again I am raising a personal point. It seems to me that cyclists are not in any way similar to walking pilgrims in that they cannot follow the traditional routes, use mechanical propulsion to assist their passage, never ever carry their own belongings, even a day pack, and are often a nuisance to walking pilgrims. I can see no difference between a cycling pilgrim and a motor cycling pilgrim or a motor car using pilgrim. The vast majority of cycling pilgrims travel by road often clocking up daily distances of 100 kms or more.
Ban cyclists? Discuss
Wow, Johnnie - you're tough on the cyclists! ...
Mike and I have both done a Camino and we are both very aware of the fact that cyclists can sometimes be a nuisance - we have discussed this at length and will be making a great deal of effort to avoid being labelled as a nuisance.
To say that you can't see any difference between a cycling pilgrim and a motor cycling pilgrim or a motor car using pilgrim is not respectful and I find it so upsetting that you, of all people, who has made the Camino and pilgrims, such a large part of your life, and someone who has given so much to pilgrims over the years, that you would even say this.
Welcome Tom, that question has me stumped. I'll let Johnny Walker answer that one.
Edit: As it is an Electric ASSISTED bike it may not be as cut and dried.
Precisely. And while extreme and confident in his opinion, he was pretty respectful about it. I wish more of our disagreements on this site were like that.Johnnie has voiced a personal opinion. We don't have to agree with him but he is entitled to express his opinion. What a boring world it would be if we knew exactly what everyone else would say on any given topic and if we were all in agreement anyway. Don't take his comments to heart. The Camino has become a big part of your life, keep up the training and enjoy every minute of being back there.
Helen, you make very interesting arguments. 1st, surely 8 or 10 days of biking cannot equate with the effort of 30+ days of walking. 2ndly, all those on bicycles I have come across were only doing it for the sport of it, and perhaps seeing their own country - no pilgramage there. I have not seen bikers doing any promotional work - that would encourage me to snore more than ever ;0) But then again, in the right spirit, why is not a pilgramage. Very interesting points you raise.No - don’t ban cyclists!However, I would say that the current bike situation is unsustainable. Maybe bikes need to be banned from the camino until 2pm!?! Possibly ban the tour groups? Maybe a cycle path will be built and kill the beauty of the landscape and the mountain bikers enjoyment I think the idea of pilgrim route is important and gets lost in the cycling (and walking) tour group promotional material. I am not a Catholic and I thought very long and hard for a number of years years about making what I see as a Catholic pilgrimage. I have no solutions but banning cyclists seems a bit harsh.
People with special needs apart I think it is debatable whether cyclists in general should be issued with credenciales, allowed to use albergues and recieve the Compostela. I realise this is controversial and again I am raising a personal point. It seems to me that cyclists are not in any way similar to walking pilgrims in that they cannot follow the traditional routes, use mechanical propulsion to assist their passage, never ever carry their own belongings, even a day pack, and are often a nuisance to walking pilgrims. I can see no difference between a cycling pilgrim and a motor cycling pilgrim or a motor car using pilgrim. The vast majority of cycling pilgrims travel by road often clocking up daily distances of 100 kms or more.
Ban cyclists? Discuss
People with special needs apart I think it is debatable whether cyclists in general should be issued with credenciales, allowed to use albergues and recieve the Compostela. I realise this is controversial and again I am raising a personal point. It seems to me that cyclists are not in any way similar to walking pilgrims in that they cannot follow the traditional routes, use mechanical propulsion to assist their passage, never ever carry their own belongings, even a day pack, and are often a nuisance to walking pilgrims. I can see no difference between a cycling pilgrim and a motor cycling pilgrim or a motor car using pilgrim. The vast majority of cycling pilgrims travel by road often clocking up daily distances of 100 kms or more. Ban cyclists? Discuss
, surely 8 or 10 days of biking cannot equate with the effort of 30+ days of walking. 2ndly, all those on bicycles I have come across were only doing it for the sport of it, and perhaps seeing their own country - no pilgramage there. .
. they cannot follow the traditional routes, use mechanical propulsion to assist their passage, never ever carry their own belongings, even a day pack, I can see no difference between a cycling pilgrim and a motor cycling pilgrim or a motor car using pilgrim. The vast majority of cycling pilgrims travel by road often clocking up daily distances of 100 kms or more.
Helen, you make very interesting arguments. 1st, surely 8 or 10 days of biking cannot equate with the effort of 30+ days of walking. 2ndly, all those on bicycles I have come across were only doing it for the sport of it, and perhaps seeing their own country - no pilgramage there. I have not seen bikers doing any promotional work - that would encourage me to snore more than ever ;0) But then again, in the right spirit, why is not a pilgramage. Very interesting points you raise.
I've been harsh on cyclists in the past (though not as far to that side as Johnny Walker). But I will say this....anyone who thinks biking it is easier than walking is being a bit biased themselves. Is it quicker? Sure. And that is a biiiiig deal. But try bicycling up some of the steeper inclines (especially the bikers who stuck to the trail). I wouldn't trade places with them in a heartbeat. It isn't easier or harder, it's just different. Very different.I thought biking the Camino would be easy until I saw the hard work some of the cyclists had to put in, in 2012. Bikes loaded with panniers and in some cases a backpack as well, pushing bikes through the adobe mud and having to stop every hundred meters or so to clear the mud build up off the wheels and gear trains. Not easy, IMO the walkers had it easy that year by comparison, much respect from me but I will stick to walking, its easier.
I totally agree. My response to your question is: I'll walk every year until...I can no longer walk.When you get down to it, a true pilgrim knows in his or her heart what he/she has accomplished and why, and the Compostela is only a piece of paper. I think I understand the need for requirements based on kilometers walked or ridden, although they seem rather arbitrary and tend to generate discussions such as this which trivialize the original intent of the pilgrimage to the tomb of St James. Do you think that a fourteenth-century pilgrim who started walking from his home in León received fewer indulgences than one who started in Paris? Or consider other pilgrimages and think about this: Should someone who visits Lourdes in the hope of receiving the gift of healing think that just because he or she came from farther away that they have a better chance of being healed? Don't get me wrong, my Compostela holds a special place of honor in my heart and on my wall, but the larger question we should be asking ourselves is this: If they stopped issuing Compostelas tomorrow, would I still walk/ride/cycle/rollerblade the Camino?
Laurie is correct. The Pilgrims' Office hasn't yet caught up with the issue of electric bikes. My personal view is that essentially there is no difference between these electric bikes and motor bikes for example and therefore the Compostela should not be issued.
There is one established exception. In 2010 the CSJ raised the question:
Will a disabled pilgrim using motorised transport or with back-up be given a Compostela?
The answer issued by the Pilgrims' Office at the time is as follows:
"This question has been debated thoughtfully and thoroughly in the Pilgrim Office at Santiago. They do not have a hard-and-fast rule about disabled pilgrims and power-assisted modes of transport. They consider each case individually, giving particular attention to the person’s motivation and effort. Their view is that if the person makes their way albeit with assistance for 100 kms and collects sellos on a credencial they will issue a Compostela. They suggest that you ask the CSJ for a letter of introduction and (if possible) have the CSJ tell them by e mail when you are about to arrive. "
People with special needs apart I think it is debatable whether cyclists in general should be issued with credenciales, allowed to use albergues and recieve the Compostela. I realise this is controversial and again I am raising a personal point. It seems to me that cyclists are not in any way similar to walking pilgrims in that they cannot follow the traditional routes, use mechanical propulsion to assist their passage, never ever carry their own belongings, even a day pack, and are often a nuisance to walking pilgrims. I can see no difference between a cycling pilgrim and a motor cycling pilgrim or a motor car using pilgrim. The vast majority of cycling pilgrims travel by road often clocking up daily distances of 100 kms or more.
Ban cyclists? Discuss
Unfair comparison, the companionship talking to pilgrims is one of the things that makes the Camino special not hurtling by at 40 to 50 kmph talking to no one. Before somebody says it each to there own.My hat is off to anybody who undertakes biking from Saint Jean Pied du Port to Santiago. It might go faster than walking, but a day in the mountains on a bike is immeasurably harder than a day in the mountains on foot. I bicycled across the United States a few years ago, and any one day of that was tough!
Funnily enough thats what my brother used to say when the uber walkers breezed by and left us behind.Unfair comparison, the companionship talking to pilgrims is one of the things that makes the Camino special not hurtling by at 40 to 50 kmph talking to no one. Before somebody says it each to there own.
I also sense a very significant increase in cyclists using the Camino as a sporting event. Unlike William cycling leisurely along the Camino paths where possible there are literally thousands of cyclists exclusively using roads to clock up the maximum daily mileages and reach Santiago in the shortest amount of time possible.
Hola Mick - I fully understand you point of view. Here at home when out training I use a number of shared walking/cycle tracks and I always slow down & ring my bell when approaching a walker - I am especially wary of those with the leads running out of their ears. I know they cannot here the bell and often call out. The shock looks on their faces is often worth a picture.I agree with you Johnnie I have a slight hearing problem in one ear and out of site hearing directional perception is pretty bad. I don,t know were the sound is coming from until the bike is right on top of me. It happened several times as I walked alone on the Camino one step either way and disaster for me and the biker. Some of the paths are very rough and you would not expect a bike to make it but the professional mountain biker can. It seems like an extreme bikers challenge do the have competitions ? or is it La vuelta a Espana ?. Fit a bell or warning device please! only screaming pilgrims behind stopped me from serious injury. Maybe a set route for bikers with stages would suit and the walkers would be on guard. Buen Camino
Segway is the only wayHi All,
I had read through few forum regarding electric assisted bicycle to use for Camino trip..
So, If Pilgrim going to use Electric assisted Bicycle for Camino, will he qualify for the passport stamp and final certificate?
Is that any official website allow me to ask and checking?
Thanks a lot
Tom
I think the vast majority of people would say "yes": cheap, healthy, cultural and challenging holiday. I've only made it to Santiago once, and yet have walked 4 times: getting to Santiago has never been the goal, the goal was really the process: digging deep with every step. Many many of the Spaniards who walked the Camino do it a week at a time: clearly not meaning to reach Santiago every time.If they stopped issuing Compostelas tomorrow, would I still walk/ride/cycle/rollerblade the Camino?
Here is my two pennies worth, do not ban cyclists they are good company as well at night. I am a walker and a cyclist. What is required is bike bells, and training on how to use them in plenty of time for me to step out the way, IMHO.
The discusion could be..is an e-bike faster a mountainbike or speedbike.you 'll still are pedaling !I'll bet the Pilgrims' Office hasn't thought about the question of electric bikes and compostelas. The link falcon put in his post takes you to a page where you can see the rules regarding compostelas. It was interesting to me that the text pointed to the degradation of the Camino because of motor vehicles and popular tourism as one of the motivations for coming up with a modern rendition of the old Compostela and limiting it to people who had walked, gone on horse, or cycled.
We had a somewhat similar issue last year when I was in the pilgrims' office. A couple who had roller bladed the Camino came in proudly proclaiming that they were the first to have done it that way, and were surprised when there was some negative reaction. Several of the office staff wanted to take the question up the administrative food chain because they were not inclined to give compostelas, but the long lines and the more accommodating views of other staff member made the opponents yield to the majority. I assume that if more people start roller blading, or if a lot of people start using electric bikes, it will result in a formal ruling on the question, but till then it will probably just be up to whomever is sitting behind the desk when you walk in for a compostela.
Buen camino, Laurie
wished to ! But ..sorry..no !Charging. Don't those bikes charge when you pedal? Or when you go downhill?
Come and see here in the Netherlands.. Bikers and anarchy are almost the same. They created their own rights, ignore any traffic rules and in case of any accident caused by themselves f.ex. a collission with a car whether they had no priority or not, they still have the legal right at their sides.. Crazy rules here. Be carefull for bikers here .maybe they could show the same bad behaviour on their camino too !I am from an area of Oregon where bikers and walkers share the same rather extensive paths. We have a university here so many of the cyclists are students who are apparently late for class or work... or are perhaps evacuating the city. Me, I'm just out for a walk in the great outdoors with no particular destination in mind except for some predetermined turnaround point. Sometimes I am accompanied by others and sometimes I meet up with strangers on the path. We all share the pathway but often have completely different goals. And therein lies the difference. As Robert Frost said...
Reb, no one could have said better than you.I think the base of all this is the Compostela.
Without the manic drive for this Certificate of Achievement, people would probably take the camino much easier. There would not be debates over who is "real" or "authentic" or "cheating," because there would not be a fundamental Requirement for all of us to meet.
IMHO, the compostela has become idolatrized. People will lie, cheat, and run each other over to get one, even if they haven't a clue what the words say.... they gotta have their official Godly Hike certificate, goddammit!
That is true!Without the manic drive for this Certificate of Achievement, people would probably take the camino much easier.
Just before getting to your post Rebekah I was wondering what the statistics are at the Cathedral regarding what certificate cyclists as for: the Compostela (for religious or spiritual reasons) or the other? I cannot think of one cyclist I have come across on the Caminos who was there for another reason than a week of physical challenge - at the very least I would be tempted to think that the majority of cyclist would then ask for the "other" certificate. And BTW, I am not saying that because they are on wheels they are not "true pilgrims", I am saying that it may simply not be their intent in the first place.I think the base of all this is the Compostela.
Without the manic drive for this Certificate of Achievement, people would probably take the camino much easier. There would not be debates over who is "real" or "authentic" or "cheating," because there would not be a fundamental Requirement for all of us to meet.
IMHO, the compostela has become idolatrized. People will lie, cheat, and run each other over to get one, even if they haven't a clue what the words say.... they gotta have their official Godly Hike certificate, goddammit!
I cannot think of one cyclist I have come across on the Caminos who was there for another reason than a week of physical challenge .
.
People will lie, cheat, and run each other over to get one, even if they haven't a clue what the words say.... they gotta have their official Godly Hike certificate, goddammit!
Absolutement!Isn't that weird? The first time we got to Santiago we didn't even bother to pick one up. The journey had its own significance to us, and to any higher spiritual existence, and no piece of paper would change that.
When finally went to get one, I was asked if it was a spiritual journey. I asked how one could possibly ride 1600 km following the steps where millions of ancient pilgrims struggled and not find a spiritual element. She smiled, handed me the page of Latin, and I still have no clue what the words say precisely, just what the trip meant to me.
The credential with all the stamps is like a holy document to us. The Compostela means nothing.
I never said I would not be willing to share a trail? Far from it.I'm curious, how do you know all their motivations? I can't see why someone would choose a route with all those cathedrals, pilgrims, and ancient roads in the way if all they wanted was a physical challenge.
And even if it were true why should that bother anyone to the point that they would not be willing to share a trail?
Clearskies, I am willing to be this is true for many, many people, and I would be part of that group.The credencials I possess mean alot more to me than the compostela I received (that is still in its tube on top of a wardrobe btw)
Perfect solution walk and ride at the same time ?? compostela guarenteed
I met people driving from bar to bar throughout Galicia, collecting stamps. I'm quite sure they got a Compestella.I think the base of all this is the Compostela.
Without the manic drive for this Certificate of Achievement, people would probably take the camino much easier. There would not be debates over who is "real" or "authentic" or "cheating," because there would not be a fundamental Requirement for all of us to meet.
IMHO, the compostela has become idolatrized. People will lie, cheat, and run each other over to get one, even if they haven't a clue what the words say.... they gotta have their official Godly Hike certificate, goddammit!
The answer is yes.When you get down to it, a true pilgrim knows in his or her heart what he/she has accomplished and why, and the Compostela is only a piece of paper. ... Don't get me wrong, my Compostela holds a special place of honor in my heart and on my wall, but the larger question we should be asking ourselves is this: If they stopped issuing Compostelas tomorrow, would I still walk/ride/cycle/rollerblade the Camino?
Perfect solution walk and ride at the same time ?? compostela guarenteed
80 miles + as described in the promotional leaflet yes, written by the manufacturers. But they do not tell you that you need the weight of a polo jockey,So - electric bikes and compostelas ... cheap electric bikes don't go far before the battery runs out but electric long-distance touring bikes do - easily 80+ miles on a charge and a full recharge in under four hours. The machines are set up to offer a choice of different levels of motor assistance to the pedalling and also have an over-ride throttle control. By law in the EU they are restricted to 15mph - though one can pedal faster if one wishes to but over that speed the motor cuts out.
I think they are great machines, a definite move forward in personal eco transportation. Using one to do the Camino would be of great assistance, especially if one is disabled in some way (one would certainly help me!). Asking for a compostela at Santiago? (which is what the original post was about) - well it seems to me that it is up to the conscience and intent of the cyclist (or should I write e-cyclist?).
They will be asked where they started, how they did it, and if it was for religious/spiritual reasons - if they, honest in their own hearts, can answer correctly to those three then they get a compostela - whether they are honest or not or "deserve" a compostela or not has absolutely nothing to do with me - just my personal opinion.
And here is a pic of a proper touring e-bike - is it not beautiful? You will see that is is a real pedal cycle, a real bike, just with clean power assist. Has disc brakes too!
View attachment 16693
One of mine fell off the wall during this debate, spreading broken glass all over the floor. Was it message from above or just my lousy job of framing it?The answer is yes.
Though perhaps I didn't realise it the first time, the Compostela is only a piece of paper. For me, the Camino is about the people I meet and the things I learn along the way. It never fails to throw up situations, conversations or thoughts that result in deep reflection and, consequently, personal growth. That growth is what I take home with me, it shapes my life from that time on.
Why does one need the extrinsic "reward" of a Compostela when the benefits of a Camino are very much intrinsic? I like to have my credential stamped but no longer collect a Compostela when I arrive in Santiago.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this debate. Clearly cyclists have strong views! And why not.
Again from the outset let me say that I do not believe the current rules regarding cyclists will change and it is interesting that the discussion has turned towards the Compostela because my concerns are much more related to the beds available in albergues than the certificates.
As far as I am concerned everyone who makes a pilgrimage to Santiago for religious or spiritual reasons by whatever means should receive the Compostela. That’s the way it always was until some 25 or so years ago when the “100 km” rule was introduced.
No one quite knows how cyclists ever got included in the policy...there is no historical reason. And if there are to be restrictions on who can use albergues if cycling pilgrims are to be admitted then why not others?
I have to admit to being biased towards walking pilgrims who maintain the tradition of walking in the footsteps of those who have gone before and who “keep the old roads open” to quote Seamus Heany. Cyclists represent only 10% of pilgrims who register in Santiago but that’s a lot of beds used. My grumbles are very well expressed in Helen1’s post:
“I see your point.
The minimum distance needed to get a certificate is 125 miles, for a regular road cyclist that’s an easy day’s ride – that’s not going to count as a pilgrimage in most people’s minds.
Camino Frances is around 500 miles, for a road cyclist this could be 4-5 days ride (which could be 5 days of intense introspection/a hard physical ride or 4 days of pretty easy riding depending on the cyclist).
For an audax rider I’m guessing but it must 2.5 days riding? A sporting achievement but probably not a pilgrimage in most people’s mind.
I make these comments with the utmost respect for people on this forum for whom a 60km a day cycle ride might be a huge achievement and enormous physical challenge. My intention is not to belittle people’s achievements, simply to point out the distance limits to get a certificate for a regular road cyclist are trivial and I agree that this kind of cycling has little in common with most people’s idea of a pilgrimage.”
In summary: Cyclists won’t be banned. The Compostela will remain with us. My personal position is that I believe everyone who makes a spiritual pilgrimage to Santiago (by their own definition) by whatever means they choose should receive the Compostela.
After 7 years of volunteering I will not be in the Pilgrims’ Office much after April. Rather I’ll be concentrating on services in English in the Cathedral and also a new project to get some of the churches open for pilgrims along the Camino Frances.
Maybe that’s why I feel more able to express my personal grumbles but they are just that. Now the nonsense of the 100 kms rule....to be continued in another thread!
I am sorry this thread has taken the direction it has but these cyclists v walkers threads crop up from time to time and, without banning them which would be censorship, they always produce more rancour than fruitful discussion.
The minimum distance needed to get a certificate is 125 miles, for a regular road cyclist that’s an easy day’s ride – that’s not going to count as a pilgrimage in most people’s minds.
Camino Frances is around 500 miles, for a road cyclist this could be 4-5 days ride (which could be 5 days of intense introspection/a hard physical ride or 4 days of pretty easy riding depending on the cyclist).
For an audax rider I’m guessing but it must 2.5 days riding? !
Just came across this old post of yours. (I actually looked up your old posts, because I read you were starting your Camino in Zariquiegui - how the hell do you say that - and I was curious; it is an unusual choice I would have thought). Anyway, I've worked out I'll be passing you, DV, on a bike (!) somewhere between Logrono and Burgos. I hope I will treat you and all walkers with the respect you deserve, and since you seem to be easily recognisable I hope to share more than a 'buen camino'. I thank you for your sentiments in this post. To me, the pilgrimage is all. I would love to walk it, but am scared that my knees would give out. I admire your courage and wish you well this time.Nothing anyone else does by way of transport for themselves or luggage bothers me in the least. If they are entitled to a Compostela according to the then current criteria, fine. Of course the most important criteria about the spirit in which a Camino is done is only known by them. So let them judge themselves. It is not for me to do so nor does it affect the way I evaluate my own journey forward. However on a purely practical note I have to say that as someone audibly challenge they often frighten the life out of me. So don't be surprise if you ever find a path-side monument to this COG (Camino Old Geezer).
I think the base of all this is the Compostela.
Without the manic drive for this Certificate of Achievement, people would probably take the camino much easier. There would not be debates over who is "real" or "authentic" or "cheating," because there would not be a fundamental Requirement for all of us to meet.
IMHO, the compostela has become idolatrized. People will lie, cheat, and run each other over to get one, even if they haven't a clue what the words say.... they gotta have their official Godly Hike certificate, goddammit!
You are completely 1000% correct.
Its somewhere in the cabinet drawers.
..Hi All,
I had read through few forum regarding electric assisted
bicycle to use for Camino trip..
So, If Pilgrim going to use Electric assisted Bicycle for Camino, will he qualify for the passport stamp and final certificate?
Is that any official website allow me to ask and checking?
Thanks a lot
Tom
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