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I noticed that, too. It was almost as if the Velazquez was there with a camera and they looked up at it as they heard it "click".I think those guys looking out at us is a little sinister, or at least creepy.
Isn't it a common feature to have a character acknowledging us?I think those guys looking out at us is a little sinister, or at least creepy.
Aside from providing some historical record (or at least one interpretation thereof), it doesn't really appeal to me. I would not choose to put it on my wall.I do not like it.
You are not wrong; there have been some interesting observations so far. Not all paintings will appeal to everyone, but it's your decision to choose which one you want to focus on and those of us who participate should respect that as you put in time and effort in preparation.I have chosen this painting for the technical and aesthetic reasons that I said above, hoping to reach interesting conclusions, and thinking that it would serve as a link with a later one, but I think I was wrong.
Without reading other replies so as not to influence my response...Velazquez. Is not as charming as Vermeer's but it has other things ...
Ah. That explains the clean clothes. It's the end of a siege rather than a hand-to-hand battle.the painting represents the surrender of the city of Breda.
What a brilliant observation. Perhaps the orientation of the horses rear end facing the defeated is a message also.I think it´s interesting how the chonky horse´s back makes almost the exact same line as the shake hands of the guys in the centre. A similar shape appears with another guy's shoulder and the left horse.
Kinda like this, the image goes in waves for me.
View attachment 90037
I, too, noticed the hand of the victor on the shoulder. At first glance it appeared as a sympathetic action. I am undecided whether it be that of assisting him up or assisting him down to the kneeling position thereby asserting his dominance. My instinct is to the latter.Well, I wanted to talk about painting and not about politics. There are very interesting things in this painting, apart from what it represents, or whether it is by Velazquez.
Speaking about the subject, (that I did not want to go into it, since the subjects of the paintings almost never interest me because what interests me is the technique, the aesthetics, the use of color, which are the things that represent themselves in the evolution of painting), the painting represents the surrender of the city of Breda. It was a battle that lasted two years, and this painting is the first painting in the history of painting that represents a surrender in which the humiliated loser is not painted on his knees, and that is the gesture that Spinola, the Spanish general, has, holding him by the shoulder so that he does not kneel.
You can also see a Dutch soldier with his weapon, it is true, in that surrender they were allowed to leave the city with their flags and their weapons, something that was never done. I also have to say that it was normal practice for the victorious army to enter the city and loot it, in this case Spinola prohibited that and the city was respected. I also want to say that the practice of looting was normal at the time and in all countries, it was not a practice of Spanish savages. He painted the Spanish for what they were, old war veterans, the Dutch look younger, and the nobles that are seen behind the Spanish general are the generals who accompanied him, it is not strange that they are painted.
The two figures that look at the ends are a normal practice in the Baroque, and they serve to communicate with the viewer, and to serve as a barrier so that the eyes do not look for what is outside the painting to the right and left, the one who looks to the right is Velazquez himself.
The central element of the painting is the key to the city, and the motif of the painting is what I said, the feeling of respect for courage and of friendship and nobility. The painting was commissioned by the king, of course, and Olivares, a kind of president of the government, asked Velazquez to paint at least the lances, to represent the strength of the victor, Velazquez had to do it, he was the official painter of the king and his freedom regarding his paintings had its limits.
I have chosen this painting for the technical and aesthetic reasons that I said above, hoping to reach interesting conclusions, and thinking that it would serve as a link with a later one, but I think I was wrong.
@simply B mentioned above about the horses and I kinda agree. The Dutch horse is delicate, while the Spanish horse has a Kardashianesque rear. And as you said, the Spanish horse is showing his back to the defeated - as if they were surely not a threath anymore.Perhaps the orientation of the horses rear end facing the defeated is a message also.
I think the imagery of the right (the victors) being more powerful/bigger/stronger than the vanquished is, of course, intentional.@simply B mentioned above about the horses and I kinda agree. The Dutch horse is delicate, while the Spanish horse has a Kardashianesque rear. And as you said, the Spanish horse is showing his back to the defeated - as if they were surely not a threath anymore.
I thought it strange, too, but dismissed it. It does look as if it was a folded piece of paper, but as if standing up floating in mid-air, not laying on the rock. I've no clue. Possibly he forgot to put his signature on it.I, too, wonder why there is a piece of paper in the bottom right corner. It is delierate. You can see the folds as if an open book or sheet of paper, and it is positioned vertically upright against a rock. Is it a map, a letter, orders?
This one looks a bit more realistic in its placement on a rock...still a very strange thing to put in the corner whether paper or handkerchief...I'm sure there is some significance.It could also be a folded handkerchief.
To me it looks like the two horses in the Breda painting are front and back views of the same horse, the one Philip is riding.Here is the paper in the bottom left hand corner of his portrait of King Philip IV.
It could also be a folded handkerchief.
I have looked at the images of Philip IV and there is a point....there is a similarity. This may be because he was familiar with the horse or, perhaps, a nod to the king.To me it looks like the two horses in the Breda painting are front and back views of the same horse, the one Philip is riding.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!To me it looks like the two horses in the Breda painting are front and back views of the same horse, the one Philip is riding.
This one looks a bit more realistic in its placement on a rock...still a very strange thing to put in the corner whether paper or handkerchief...I'm sure there is some significance.
Or even worse... Kardashian has a Spanish horse rear@simply B mentioned above about the horses and I kinda agree. The Dutch horse is delicate, while the Spanish horse has a Kardashianesque rear. And as you said, the Spanish horse is showing his back to the defeated - as if they were surely not a threath anymore.
Following with this. Philip 2th imposed the black in Spain as the supreme elegance for men. The black colour was also a symbol of superiority. In opposition the protestants wore colourful in England and the Netherlands.The Spaniards wear darker colours than the Dutch.
Hello Harlan the painting is in Madrid,I am fascinated by the volume of responses. My question is where does one find this painting along the Camino?
I am fascinated by the volume of responses. My question is where does one find this painting along the Camino?
Even after five various Caminos; four of them flying into Madrid before beginning, I have not spent any time in that city which I hear is wonderful...next time I will plan to spend a few days there before I begin...hopefully in 2021. I will be sure to visit the Prado museum as it has become a more personal destination for me because of your influence.Hello Harlan the painting is in Madrid,
Hello Harlan, the painting is in the Prado Museum, in Madrid, this means that it is on the Camino de Madrid, first etapa, so it is possible to see it if you do this way, and spend some day in Madrid before starting.
Oh, @gmag... You were not "wrong"! Your title for your post is "NEW PAINTING TO MAKE SOME MEMBERS OF THE IVAR FORUM SUFFER..."Well, I wanted to talk about painting and not about politics. There are very interesting things in this painting, apart from what it represents, or whether it is by Velazquez.
Speaking about the subject, (that I did not want to go into it, since the subjects of the paintings almost never interest me because what interests me is the technique, the aesthetics, the use of color, which are the things that represent themselves in the evolution of painting), the painting represents the surrender of the city of Breda. It was a battle that lasted two years, and this painting is the first painting in the history of painting that represents a surrender in which the humiliated loser is not painted on his knees, and that is the gesture that Spinola, the Spanish general, has, holding him by the shoulder so that he does not kneel.
You can also see a Dutch soldier with his weapon, it is true, in that surrender they were allowed to leave the city with their flags and their weapons, something that was never done. I also have to say that it was normal practice for the victorious army to enter the city and loot it, in this case Spinola prohibited that and the city was respected. I also want to say that the practice of looting was normal at the time and in all countries, it was not a practice of Spanish savages. He painted the Spanish for what they were, old war veterans, the Dutch look younger, and the nobles that are seen behind the Spanish general are the generals who accompanied him, it is not strange that they are painted.
The two figures that look at the ends are a normal practice in the Baroque, and they serve to communicate with the viewer, and to serve as a barrier so that the eyes do not look for what is outside the painting to the right and left, the one who looks to the right is Velazquez himself.
The central element of the painting is the key to the city, and the motif of the painting is what I said, the feeling of respect for courage and of friendship and nobility. The painting was commissioned by the king, of course, and Olivares, a kind of president of the government, asked Velazquez to paint at least the lances, to represent the strength of the victor, Velazquez had to do it, he was the official painter of the king and his freedom regarding his paintings had its limits.
I have chosen this painting for the technical and aesthetic reasons that I said above, hoping to reach interesting conclusions, and thinking that it would serve as a link with a later one, but I think I was wrong.
Without reading other replies so as not to influence my response...
I find my eye circling, anti-clockwise from the centre outwards and then back in again: the key, the hat, the bloody cloth (!??...Ick, if that's what it is), the warhorse's rump, the lances, the smoke in the background, then down to the pikes and the guys on the left-hand side of the scene, finally back to the fellow surrendering the key. The light background behind the key keeps pulling my eye there. If I try to reverse the sequence of looking at everything surrounding that key— going clockwise — my eye resists it.
(Obviously it's a battle/surrender scene, but I have to say that nobody looks like they've been doing much fighting, because they're way too clean. Even the horse looks shining and freshly brushed, all the way down to the fetlocks.)
Edit ~
Ah. That explains the clean clothes. It's the end of a siege rather than a hand-to-hand battle.
500 year-old politics aside (I'm not going there), I'm curious about the use of light and color here. When I squint at the painting with almost completely closed eyes, darker colors are more on the right side, and the lighter ones are more on the left — giving weight to the side of the victors. I'm not sure if this is why my eye and stye move in that direction or whether it's all the action behind the main Spanish protagonist, that huge horse facing away, and all the lances...
Oh, @gmag... You were not "wrong"! Your title for your post is "NEW PAINTING TO MAKE SOME MEMBERS OF THE IVAR FORUM SUFFER..."
Soooo, you succeeded!
My apologies if you took my reaction too much to heart as it relates to the painting itself and NOT your earnest efforts to educate and entertain us.
By way of explanation...the visual arts fascinate me though I have no talent for them aside from minor, and long ago, awards for B & W photography.
The "heroic" art form always seems to me to be part of the victors re-writing of history. (Even though I adore J-L David's style, even some of his works gets me dyspeptic. And, yes, I DO realize that even the most talented artists had to take commissions to eat back then - - but I do not have to spend time on those pieces now.)
Having haunted art museums, when the opportunity presented over the last 50 years, it has been my experience to find myself drawn to studies of the intimate...or the natural world...or people just being people in social settings. As someone once said, "The happy pages of history are blank." But there is a significant body of the visual arts to fill in those gaps.
By all means, carry on with your efforts as you have time, @gmag! I will endeavor to keep my art-heathen demons in check from here on.
B
I'll put my second two penny worth in.
It looks like a painting in two halves. The victors on the right and vanquished on the left providing a frame for the main subject. The line on each side leads you to the two main subjects. The victorious side is depicted in a bigger form...taller lances/bigger horse/The right hand figure standing taller than the left.
*Possibly fires in villages in the far background.
*The man on the left in the white shirt is downtrodden and is being consoled.
*The center man in black is obviously the leader of the winning side, and is carrying what appears to be a viewing scope.
*No uniforms, but wearing white ruffs.
* Men on the left appear to be younger than those on the right.
*I found it interesting that there is only one horse on each side depicted.
I love the look of those soft leather boots and the fabric on the two central characters, but why do the guys have such small heads?
What is the paper in the lower right corner?
Isn't it a common feature to have a character acknowledging us?
Aside from providing some historical record (or at least one interpretation thereof), it doesn't really appeal to me. I would not choose to put it on my wall.
Yes, is the sash of General.Question, @gmag...
When I first saw the victor's sash, and as @VNwalking has noted, I thought it possibly had blood on it, but then near his shoulder it looked more a solid color and pattern, so I doubted and assumed it was just the fabric color as it also has an unsoiled gold lace trim. In addition his ruff is white and not soiled. I am wondering what your opinion is of the sash.
I´ve been to Marid three times and in all of them, I visited the Prado. It brings tears to my eyes to be in front of those paintings that I saw in books when I was a kid. My grandpa loved to paint and would show me all those images from different artists and styles, and I loved it.I will be sure to visit the Prado museum as it has become a more personal destination for me because of your influence.
Even after five various Caminos; four of them flying into Madrid before beginning, I have not spent any time in that city which I hear is wonderful...next time I will plan to spend a few days there before I begin...hopefully in 2021. I will be sure to visit the Prado museum as it has become a more personal destination for me because of your influence.
Madrid is splendid.
The museums, the various plazas, do spend at least two days there.
You won’t regret it.
Yes, I just noticed this bit:The painting is painted with very diluted paint, it is almost transparent throughout the painting.
Here's where my eye looks in another anti-clockwise — horizontally, as you say, @gmag.On the winners side there is a perspective towards the bottom and the center,
Yes, I just noticed this bit:
View attachment 90089
It looks like a mistake, but clearly wasn't.
And thank you, now I see the thing that looks like a bloody cloth is actually the end of a sash, and the guy behind him has a similar one as well.
Here's where my eye looks in another anti-clockwise — horizontally, as you say, @gmag.
Two horses bodies seem to trace a yin-yang Circle, framing the two opposing protagonists in the center. from above it would look like this, with the Spanish war horse's rear end being on the dark edge, and the Dutch horse's face being on the light edge.
View attachment 90090
Both sides went through something horrible together and are intertwined in that experience. I'm struck by the sympathetic expression on the part of the victor. You would think they were friends after a tennis match rather than combatants after a long siege. But, as the Christmas Truce of WWI illustrated very well, people on opposite sides of a terrible battle share more then meets the eye. Everyone has suffered.
Haha. Exactly the vibe.could be Federer and Nadal,
I've been puzzling over why he did this, because it was clearly intentional. Is it a secret coded message for those who might know about such technical things, leaving the rest of us to scratch our heads?It is an important point of painting for some technical reason.
My opinion: because he is young, lower class or even a servant and probably not Spanish. There were many Germans, Italians and Catholic Flemish soldiers in the Tercios.Regarding balance, does anyone know why (according to me, nothing more, I can be wrong) the young Spaniard who holds Spinola's horse wears those clothes with those colors?
My opinion: because he is young, lower class or even a servant and probably not Spanish. There were many Germans, Italians and Catholic Flemish soldiers in the Tercios.
Yes I agree, many wonderful people here on the forum. They are sensitive and sensible.
You know much more about painting than me, but appart from the color balance I see fine precision details like for example the Dutch have "Dutch faces". On paintings from previous times the people used to have always "local faces" wherever the painting was about, because there weren´t photographs or models available.
And as I said before the Spanish authorities wearing in black.
Yes I agree, many wonderful people here on the forum. They are sensitive and sensible.
You know much more about painting than me, but appart from the color balance I see fine precision details like for example the Dutch have "Dutch faces". On paintings from previous times the people used to have always "local faces" wherever the painting was about, because there weren´t photographs or models available.
And as I said before the Spanish authorities wearing in black.
No...I have seen the nearly invisible lines from the beginning, but chose to say nothing. The most prominent ones are on the gray shirt of the man at the far right, but I have no idea what they represent...or possibly I am totally wrong and it's not what you are looking for.
I also see the faint white lances in the background, but they look more obvious, yet have to do with mass distribution.
Yes!!Well, I tried!
How interesting! I can see that now when I go back to your previous enlarged picture, but never would have discovered it on my own. That method allows us to see each individual face.It seems that the group of Spaniards is a spontaneous, disorderly group. But if we draw a line across Spinola's shoulder and back, following his inclination, and then draw another one across the horse's neck, it is clear to the naked eye that they are parallel. Next we draw lines parallel to the first two, and more or less at the same distance from each other. Now we can see that all the people in the group are not disordered, but fit perfectly within rectangles that are also parallel to the two lines that frame the group. This is only possible if it is designed.
View attachment 90150
Very good observation. It gives a sense of power, or order, without it being clear why - and so is very powerful.It seems that the group of Spaniards is a spontaneous, disorderly group. But if we draw a line across Spinola's shoulder and back, following his inclination, and then draw another one across the horse's neck, it is clear to the naked eye that they are parallel. Next we draw lines parallel to the first two, and more or less at the same distance from each other. Now we can see that all the people in the group are not disordered, but fit perfectly within rectangles that are also parallel to the two lines that frame the group. This is only possible if it is designed.
View attachment 90150
Chrissi, don't you think that now, after all we have seen with Vermer and Velazquez, in just a week or something like that, all of you can already see many things in almost any painting, modern or old?How interesting! I can see that now when I go back to your previous enlarged picture, but never would have discovered it on my own. That method allows us to see each individual face.
It's all too easy to get caught in the story line of the painting, completely missing the compositional aspects of the painting itself.Are these things difficult? NO. They are all just logical.
VNwalking,It's all too easy to get caught in the story line of the painting, completely missing the compositional aspects of the painting itself.
Although come to think of it, that's completely the point of all that technique. Drawing the eye here and there, creating emotional resonance, and pulling us into the story the image is telling — all without us consciously knowing that's what's happening.
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