Gore-tex

[OZAJ]

I wonder how many pilgrims use gore-tex waterproof jackets and trousers and whether they are happy with them.

I recall a post some time ago from a very experienced person who had been using the same gore-tex jacket for years and was still happy with it.

I have a gore-tex jacket which I bought probably 15+ years ago. It is falling apart as you might expect. It is still water resistant and sort-of breathable. I have two problems with it:

1. It was very expensive;
2. it is bulky and heavy.

I have tried other cheaper, less bulky and lighter jackets which were fine until it started to rain. I usually got wetter from the inside than the outside, but not always.

I would be interested in more recent experiences with gore-tex. Do many people go for it, or is the expense and weight too much of a problem?

 

[Samos]

Hi, I had goretex rain gear previously, then tried the snugpak patrol poncho. Have used it on 2 Camino's - including a walk up the Portuguese coast in a rain storm and have been very satisfied with it. It may look like it is "wetted out" on the outside, but I have always stayed dry on the inside. It is not noisy like some rain gear.
Not the cheapest, but not the most expensive either.

 

[Anhalter]

Caveat: I am not a professional material scientist.

From my understanding, GoreTex (and similar membranes) works with holes that are small enough for vapor to pass thru but not big enough for water to pass thru. So in theory, you can ventilate without water getting in.
Problem with the hole thing, humidity (vapor) only goes where there is less humidity. If you are in heavy rain, humidity will be 100% and thus the moisture you produce yourself has nowhere to go. So no matter the jacket or membrane, if you work hard (eg hike uphill) in heavy rain you will get wet. Whatever you wear.
Now luckily heavy rain usually means it being cooler and thus less sweating will be happening.

The advantage of a breathable membrane is when the humidity in the air is less than 100%. That might be a light rain or if you just want to use your jacket as a wind shell.

That being said, i know many people that ditched membrane jackets alltogether and use a combination of non-waterproof or semi-waterproof jacket together with a plain (and cheap and light) rain jacket. That can be a dedicated wind jacket or a soft shell for example.

 

[PilgrimPillar]

I wonder how many pilgrims use gore-tex waterproof jackets and trousers and whether they are happy with them.

I recall a post some time ago from a very experienced person who had been using the same gore-tex jacket for years and was still happy with it.

I have a gore-tex jacket which I bought probably 15+ years ago. It is falling apart as you might expect. It is still water resistant and sort-of breathable. I have two problems with it:

1. It was very expensive;
2. it is bulky and heavy.

I have tried other cheaper, less bulky and lighter jackets which were fine until it started to rain. I usually got wetter from the inside than the outside, but not always.

I would be interested in more recent experiences with gore-tex. Do many people go for it, or is the expense and weight too much of a problem?

I remember a known resource within pilgrim community , when asked on advice on shoes, stating he recommended Salomon trail shoes as he was on his s e v e n t h p a i r , all of them lasting more than 1000 km. With knowledge of his experience level that means he has used this brand/type all his «pilgrim-life». And by that making his experience valid for him personally , but not a good advice generally. Obviously so, he has nothing to compare with.

For me this exemplifies the challenge between giving advice out of a personal perspective or , the better version , out of a general perspective.

Personally I would choose a poncho covering most gear, letting me subjected for getting wet from knees down. That is jacket, trousers and backpack cover in one product. Minimum 5000 coloumn meter water protection. ( Hypothermia in severe rainstorm is a real risk)

Generally I would say that modern Gore tex fabric with 20000 coloumn meter protection , still being breathable ? That is a tech marvel to be considered for real. Even with high cost.

Thx for reflecting making ones choices the better ones.

Ultreia!

 

[dougfitz]

I would be interested in more recent experiences with gore-tex. Do many people go for it, or is the expense and weight too much of a problem?

I have had good results from gore-tex rain jackets and rain pants, but have tried a wide variety of gear using other waterproof layers with mixed success. The ones I have been most impressed with are a Mont jacket using Hydronaute Pro fabric, and a Macpac jacket using eVent fabric.

Getting wet on the inside of the jacket is always a problem. I am sure there will be knowledgeable members who can give a better explanation than what I can offer. At its heart, the issue arises when one works hard enough to generate more sweat than can be transpired through the fabric as vapour. The jacket fabric then does what it is designed to do, and keeps the liquid sweat on the inside of the jacket at the same time as keeping (liquid) rain on the outside.

I understand that gore-tex generally has lower rates of transpiration than more modern waterproof fabrics, but that might only delay the onset of getting wet on the inside. Outside temperature, relative humidity and one's work rate will be other significant factors. It appears to me that most raingear is optimised for use in colder conditions than one would find on the Camino, particularly in summer. One solution is to walk more slowly, but I have never met a pilgrim who has been prepared to do that!

The issue of expense is less important to me, but the jackets I am now using are lighter than my earlier gore-tex jacket. Some of this is construction, like the length of the jacket. Clearly the longer the jacket, the better it protects a larger part of your body. I see no sense in bomber-style jackets that don't cover they lower part of one's torso. Longer jackets are clearly going to be heavier, and also more expensive. You will need to find your own balance on this. Good luck!

 

[dougfitz]

If you are in heavy rain, humidity will be 100% and thus the moisture you produce yourself has nowhere to go.

It is true that if the other environmental factors are present, rain forms at 100% RH. But that is going to at the height of the rain clouds, and doesn't have to be at ground level.

There seems to be a combination of factors working here, and clearly if you are working hard in heavy rain, it will be difficult to generate the vapour pressure differences across the waterproof membrane to transpire more vapour. It's not that the fabric has stopped working, rather, you are asking it to do far more than it can handle in the conditions.

 

[karl.worley]

I wonder how many pilgrims use gore-tex waterproof jackets and trousers and whether they are happy with them.

I recall a post some time ago from a very experienced person who had been using the same gore-tex jacket for years and was still happy with it.

I have a gore-tex jacket which I bought probably 15+ years ago. It is falling apart as you might expect. It is still water resistant and sort-of breathable. I have two problems with it:

1. It was very expensive;
2. it is bulky and heavy.

I have tried other cheaper, less bulky and lighter jackets which were fine until it started to rain. I usually got wetter from the inside than the outside, but not always.

I would be interested in more recent experiences with gore-tex. Do many people go for it, or is the expense and weight too much of a problem?

I just completed the San Salvador and Primitivo. I had a poncho, but also packed my goretex pants and jacket, which I thought was overpacking at the time. I am glad I had them because I experienced rain every day but two with temps around 7 and winds most days. The gotetex allowed an extra layer to block the wind. I regulated body temps by wearing shorts beneath the pants and usually a short sleeved tee under the jacket. Any time I walk a Camino November-April, the jacket and pants will definitely be in my pack. Buen Camino

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Sorry, the next paragraph is a recap from what has already been said but the one after adds to the discussion.

If the fabric of your jacket or pants is soaked (wetted out) the water can work its way inside. Having a waterproof barrier like Gore-Tex or similar with microscopic holes should help prevent the water from getting inside but the water vapor inside is going to have a difficult time pushing through the water trapped in the weave and you will get wet from your persperation or the condensation of its vapor.

What is needed for equipment designed to be porous but water resistant is a durable water repellent (often abbreviated as DWR) applied to the outside of the clothing. This allows the water to bead and then flow off you rather than soaking into the fabric.

I think this video describes the problem better than I just did and explains how to reapply a DWR coating.

 

[JerryStroebele]

Goretex head to toe in Galicia and an umbrella if winds allow. Buen Camino

 

[Bothydave]

Caveat: I am not a professional material scientist.

From my understanding, GoreTex (and similar membranes) works with holes that are small enough for vapor to pass thru but not big enough for water to pass thru. So in theory, you can ventilate without water getting in.
Problem with the hole thing, humidity (vapor) only goes where there is less humidity. If you are in heavy rain, humidity will be 100% and thus the moisture you produce yourself has nowhere to go. So no matter the jacket or membrane, if you work hard (eg hike uphill) in heavy rain you will get wet. Whatever you wear.
Now luckily heavy rain usually means it being cooler and thus less sweating will be happening.

The advantage of a breathable membrane is when the humidity in the air is less than 100%. That might be a light rain or if you just want to use your jacket as a wind shell.

That being said, i know many people that ditched membrane jackets alltogether and use a combination of non-waterproof or semi-waterproof jacket together with a plain (and cheap and light) rain jacket. That can be a dedicated wind jacket or a soft shell for example.

Good answer
membranes rely on a temperature difference between you and the outside to pump the water vapour out. If that doesn’t exist it won’t work - which is why Goretex tents never caught on. Alas if like Goretex there are tiny holes and the water outside is fine enough like mist moving in a strong wind it will punch straight through the jacket where rain drops being much larger would not. In short in the wrong conditions you can get very wet inside Goretex. That said I have used it for many years.

 

[JerryStroebele]

I used Goretex tents and bivy sacks (Early Winters) in Alaska for years. Worked in rain except when getting in and out. Now I just use albergues in Spain. Buen Camino

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I have a gore-tex jacket which I bought probably 15+ years ago. It is falling apart as you might expect. It is still water resistant and sort-of breathable. I have two problems with it:

1. It was very expensive;
2. it is bulky and heavy.

I have tried other cheaper, less bulky and lighter jackets which were fine until it started to rain. I usually got wetter from the inside than the outside, but not always.

This UK retailer's video goes over several styles of jacket and GoreTex combinations such as 2, 2.5 and 3 layers, waterproof versus windproof. It also discusses cost, durability and weight issues. It can really help you decide what type of GoreTex jacket to buy next.

This next video is pro GoreTex as a product but very much against it for health and environmental reasons (in its manufacturing and disposal, not in its use in rain wear). It mentions a John Oliver video about the effects on health but I'm not adding that here.

The video below is anti GoreTex and includes discussion of pressure as mentioned also in some of the above posts. It has an ad in it towards the end but don't quit there the discussion continues. It describes how GoreTex's marketing is why it is the leader in waterproof outdoor clothing. The take-away from this one is don't bother with GoreTex.

When you see shots of rain sliding off jackets remember that it is the DWR on the outside of the jacket that is responsible for that, not the GoreTex on the inside.

 

[henrythedog]

Sorry, the next paragraph is a recap from what has already been said but the one after adds to the discussion.

If the fabric of your jacket or pants is soaked (wetted out) the water can work its way inside. Having a waterproof barrier like Gore-Tex or similar with microscopic holes should help prevent the water from getting inside but the water vapor inside is going to have a difficult time pushing through the water trapped in the weave and you will get wet from your persperation or the condensation of its vapor.

What is needed for equipment designed to be porous but water resistant is a durable water repellent (often abbreviated as DWR) applied to the outside of the clothing. This allows the water to bead and then flow off you rather than soaking into the fabric.

I think this video describes the problem better than I just did and explains how to reapply a DWR coating.

Many years ago when I was in a mountain rescue team in the UK I attended a lecture by Ken Ledward, who founded Karrimior, and subsequently went on to be a respected outdoor gear tester. The subject was ‘waterproofs’,

The key takeaways were that 1. a smock design beat a jacket hands down for water resistance; purely because all else being equal, it had fewer seams and 2. That paint, spray or wash-on treatments which purport to refresh a fabric’s original water-repellency were good for no more than a couple of days’ wear.

That was a good 15 years ago, and time will have moved on.

(Not necessarily ‘replying’ to Rick, just hoping to add to what I regard as well-founded advice)

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

a smock design beat a jacket hands down for water resistance; purely because all else being equal, it had fewer seams

Agree. It likely beats jackets in the weight and cost categories too. Jackets win the versatility and ventilation categories though.

paint, spray or wash-on treatments which purport to refresh a fabric’s original water-repellency were good for no more than a couple of days’ wear.

Partially agree; I don't know how long DWR treatments actually last. One type I know of essentially adds a coating of microscopic hairs to the fabric to cause beading to have gravity do the rest of the waterproofing. Awfully fragile that.

By the way, to add a fun fact, the fringe on buckskin jackets wasn't originally put there for decoration; it's for water management. Rain water soaked into the jacket would flow down into the fringe and drip off there.

 

[chinacat]

Ventile !

No condensation on the inner surface and totally effective rain protection.
It’s cotton, so a natural fabric, with all the concomitant benefits.
It will, of course, become heavier as it gets wet but not appreciably so, because the fabric is so tightly woven … which is how it works.

It’s expensive but no more so than many top-of-the-range waterproofs.

Edit:
Unless it’s tipping it down I like to wear a Lowe smock (years old!) that is ‘showerproof’.
Before I washed it for the first time I wore it in the mountains in Eryri, in heavy rain and wind, on an exposed path. I remained dry and it coped well with condensation inside … I was very comfortable.
After I washed it, I used Nikwax Direct wash in-on it, and it continued to keep me dry.

I have Goretex and Barricade jackets (i prefer the Barricade and have a longer length jacket which uses it).
But my old smock remains my favourite

 

[chinacat]

There are always Buffalo smocks … they’re very effective in lousy weather