Hola, if anyone would share some info about return flights.

[RonnieSherpa]

I have time to plan, so starting early. Myself and family will be doing The Camino sometime in 2015. Coming from Ventura CA. What do you do for return travel, not wanting to pay for a round trip due to unknown completion date for return? Any info greatly appreciated, on how you did it or recommend, Gracias

 

[jirit]

Buy one way tickets. In Canada we have Air Transit that sells relatively inexpensive one tickets. I am sure there are some discount airlines in the States that offer the same.

 

[RonnieSherpa]

Buy one way tickets. In Canada we have Air Transit that sells relatively inexpensive one tickets. I am sure there are some discount airlines in the States that offer the same.

That's what I was thinking to get there, Just really wondering about the return trip? Thanks jirit I haven't gotten to the fly into where and train to here or there and such to get started but will start inquiring with whoever would be helpful to answer...Cheers...

 

[RonnieSherpa]

Ummm ok, I am finding my way to the proper threads

 

[peregrina2000]

I don't know anyone who has gone from US to the Camino on a one-way ticket. Somewhere in the back of my mind I have a vague recollection that it is possible, though not likely, that you will be denied entry without a round trip ticket.

But the main criterion is going to be price. Buying a one way ticket to the US from Spain upon completion of your Camino is going to be very expensive indeed. I had a friend who had to go home unexpectedly and though it cost her over $800 to change the date of her return flight, it was cheaper than the $2300 that buying a new ticket would cost.

jirit, I don't know of any airlines like the one you mention, but maybe there are some in the big cities. I live in the boonies and am stuck with just one air carrier.

 

[whariwharangi]

I have found that North American carriers have a really screwed up price schedule. Its almost always cheaper to buy a return ticket as it is to buy a one way ticket.

A strategy for your trip might be to determine how much time you have off and plan to stay there until that time is up. Spend some time looking around when you are finished your camino. Spain (and Europe) have a lot to offer; the camino is just an introduction. Or spend more time on the camino. Perhaps start walking on other caminos such as Camino Finisterre or Camino Portugal. Remember the 90 days limit.

My plan was to go south and spend some time resting on the Mediteranean beaches.

I ended up having to travel home earlier as planned. Changing the ticket cost about $200.

I flew round trip to London. From there I used the discount airlines like Ryanair and Easyjet; airlines which don't make it difficult to buy tickets on the day of travel. There are discount airlines that connect all of Europe.

 

[jirit]

I don't know anyone who has gone from US to the Camino on a one-way ticket. Somewhere in the back of my mind I have a vague recollection that it is possible, though not likely, that you will be denied entry without a one way ticket.

But the main criterion is going to be price. Buying a one way ticket to the US from Spain upon completion of your Camino is going to be very expensive indeed. I had a friend who had to go home unexpectedly and though it cost her over $800 to change the date of her return flight, it was cheaper than the $2300 that buying a new ticket would cost.

jirit, I don't know of any airlines like the one you mention, but maybe there are some in the big cities. I live in the boonies and am stuck with just one air carrier.

Air Transit is Canadian Montreal based charter airline that prices it's tickets based on segment. Typically their cost of a return flight is cheaper than most majors but you are restricted to certain days and times.

Likewise the price of an one way segment is about 1/2 of the cost of a return.

For example the last time I flew them I flew from Vancouver to Paris return for about $1,000, each segment in and out cost me about $500. This was less than buying a ticket from one of the majors whereby the return would have cost $1,400 and an one way probably the same!

I am not sure about the situation in the Stats but some of the discount or charter airlines might do some similar.

Or if you are close enough the Canadian border drive up and take a flight from a Canadian city using Air Transit. They fly out of most major cities to Europe.

 

[jirit]

Try and check out condor.

They offers reasonable one tickets from select USA cities into Europe and back again

http://www.condor.com/eu/index.jsp

 

[RonnieSherpa]

Thank you for the reply's. Definatly need assistance navigating travel logistics, that's why I thought to start early. Love this resource from this site, tap into the vast experience and knowledge...So If you don't mind I will inquire more individually thru P.M.

 

[dougfitz]

Definatly need assistance navigating travel logistics, that's why I thought to start early.

A couple of points for you to consider. First is that major airlines normally only release about 12 months of their flight schedules for booking, and some of the budget airlines seem to release less. So you won't be able to do much detailed flight planning for a while yet if you are planning for 2015.

Second, while it is possible to book relatively simple travel online, once things become a bit more complicated, I have always found it useful to book through a travel agent. While you might expect that all available flights are exposed on the booking engines, I have found that they sometimes have interesting biases, and don't always come up with either the cheapest or most direct routes. My travel agent has always been able to find better options than the booking sites once it is more than a simple return flight.

 

[jpflavin1]

Ronnie:

I recommend you buy a round-trip ticket. Plan your Camino the best you (#days) can and if you get in early spend some time in Santiago or walk to the coast. If you get in too early you can always just change your ticket for around $250. That is much cheaper than buying two one way tickets.

You also might have a problem getting an entry visa w/o a return ticket.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[whariwharangi]

Ronnie:

You also might have a problem getting an entry visa w/o a return ticket.

Ultreya,
Joe

The best way around this is to contact the embassy of the nation you are visiting prior to travel and ask if a return ticket is required.

In my experience with one way tickets its the airline that will get soggy and hard to light; the customs people just stamp the passport and pass you through. If you do have trouble you can quote the embassy response to your query.

 

[dougfitz]

The best way around this is to contact the embassy of the nation you are visiting prior to travel and ask if a return ticket is required.

In my experience with one way tickets its the airline that will get soggy and hard to light; the customs people just stamp the passport and pass you through. If you do have trouble you can quote the embassy response to your query.

It's been over a decade since I was last asked to show evidence of having a return ticket, and that was entering South Africa. I was expecting the question, so there must have been some information available that this was an issue there. I cannot recall being asked in Europe or the UK on more recent trips.

Regards,

 

[Thengel1]

Ronnie:

I recommend you buy a round-trip ticket. Plan your Camino the best you (#days) can and if you get in early spend some time in Santiago or walk to the coast. If you get in too early you can always just change your ticket for around $250. That is much cheaper than buying two one way tickets.

You also might have a problem getting an entry visa w/o a return ticket.

Ultreya,
Joe

I would be careful about what airline you fly with if this is the plan you go with. I tried to change my return date at the last minute with Aer Lingus (whose official change fee was a modest $150 CAN), and the amount they quoted me was so high, it proved cheaper to buy a return ticket (from a different airline, of course)

 

[peregrina2000]

In my experience, though it is true that the fee for changing may be $250, that is just the fee for the privilege of changing your ticket. You will still have to pay whatever difference there is between the fare you actually paid and the fare that you would have had to pay if you bought the ticket on the day you are changing it to. That's why my friend had to cough up $800 to change her ticket. $250 was the change fee, and the other $550 reflected the fact that the fare was now much higher than it was when she had originally bought her ticket. But maybe different airlines do things differently.

 

[dougfitz]

In my experience, though it is true that the fee for changing may be $250, that is just the fee for the privilege of changing your ticket. You will still have to pay whatever difference there is between the fare you actually paid and the fare that you would have had to pay if you bought the ticket on the day you are changing it to. That's why my friend had to cough up $800 to change her ticket. $250 was the change fee, and the other $550 reflected the fact that the fare was now much higher than it was when she had originally bought her ticket. But maybe different airlines do things differently.

I also understand this to be the general approach for tickets that aren't booked as fully flexible - a fee to make the changes and the fare difference. The specific rules for the different fare types should be explained to you when you make the booking, even if you are booking online and not through a travel agent. Tempting as it is to just click on the checkbox saying you have read through the terms and conditions, this is one time when it might be important to actually skim through the details.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

In my experience, though it is true that the fee for changing may be $250, that is just the fee for the privilege of changing your ticket. You will still have to pay whatever difference there is between the fare you actually paid and the fare that you would have had to pay if you bought the ticket on the day you are changing it to. That's why my friend had to cough up $800 to change her ticket. $250 was the change fee, and the other $550 reflected the fact that the fare was now much higher than it was when she had originally bought her ticket. But maybe different airlines do things differently.

Iberia does it this way. I spent a half-hour on the phone with their agent until I figured out what he was doing. He was comparing my fare with all available fares. My fare was months old, the Euro had fluctuated, etc., so there was nothing close. I had expected that if I wanted to change my flight to the same flight on a different day, that I would pay the $250 fee. NO. No. no. Airlines are heartless mercenaries, and when they have you over a barrel, do not expect a break. You are more likely to get a break from a banker, lawyer, or used car salesman! They call it "yield management," but it really is a craven lust for maximum profit. Half of airline revenue now is the additional fees they charge, baggage, food, reservation changes, etc. They have fallen in love with taking advantage of their customers, and it has become their way of doing business. There is no place where you can be as certain that they will lie to you, even when the truth may be to their advantage. Well, cell phone companies can come close...

You will find that it is very costly to be indecisive about your return flight. If cost is a concern, make up your mind before you reserve.

 

[dougfitz]

@falcon269
so you are not inclined to the alternative view - that airlines in their munificence are prepared to offer a limited number of cheap fares to potential passengers that know enough about their travel plans to benefit from the low cost and do not expect to be disadvantaged by the stringent conditions that apply. Should the potential passenger find that they need to change, the airline in all its generosity (and for a small fee) will allow this on the understanding that all the seats available under the original arrangements will have been booked or no longer available for any number of other reasons, and they will let you pay for the now higher priced seat even though when you board it will not be clear that the seat being offered is in any way different to the one you might have used had you not changed your plans.

 

[jirit]

I generally do not have a problem having to pay the difference between the price of the original booking and the current price ( one assumes it has only gone up - I have yet to have an airline offer me a lower current prices).

What surprises me more is the change fee - which by the way had gone up to $300 at least for KLM.

Given that airlines use to compensate ticket agents only $75 booking ticket one can only assume this is the true cost and some profit for the airline for processing a ticket. For some odd reason it costs 4 times more to cancel the original booking and rebook a new ticket! It is surprising in this day and age given the use of technology that it would cost $250-300 to complete two electronic transactions. It is more surprising that given this of process generally leads to the same airline getting the opportunity to boost their margin and profits on the same seat (cancelling and dumping the former cheaper discount seat for a more expensive priced seat)

You would think that airlines would love it if folks would come to them weeks after buying a cheap discount seat, asking if they could cancel that seat and now buy a more expensive seat.

Just think how your grocery store would feel if you returned the box of canned soup you bought on special last month and you wanted to exchange it for a new box of canned soup at a higher price?

I think the store owner would be pleased to make the exchange - " Joe here is your refund of $10 dollars for that box of soup - the new box of soup will cost you $30 - sorry but the price has gone up - can I help you with anything else?"

"Oh Mary throw that old box of soup back on the shelf and since Joe took the last box of soup, reprice that returned box of soup to $40 - we are getting low"

But alas the airlines like a few other silly organizations are simply dumb. Airlines would rather stuffed more and more people into a single narrow space at a cheaper price in order to squeeze some profits forgetting that maybe some people might pay a bit more to travel in a civilized fashion.

Plane travel today just plain sucks

 

[peregrina2000]

You know, I just can't resist the urge to get on the airline-bashing bandwagon, though I think it's pretty clear we consumers (globally speaking) have had a big part in this.

As they slash away their "base fares" to keep up with the next airline, airlines have found they have almost limitless profits awaiting them as they charge "fees" for everything else. They have earned billions and billions of dollars just from the checked baggage fee. So this change fee just fits right into that model. (Was it Ryanair that backed away from its proposed 1 euro fee to use the bathroom? -- but only because people said they would pee in their seats -- that may be the proposed airline fee that has not bee adopted).

True, for the really savvy customer, as Doug says, you can navigate the maze of rules and come up with a dirt cheap fare, compared to the poor sucker sitting next to you who fell into the airline's "fee trap." Not sure that the overall welfare of society is being maximized, though.

And one little tidbit about all of these fees that really gets in my craw is that it has had a huge impact on airlines' tax liability. They pay (local taxes at least, and maybe only in the US) taxes based on their income, which is the fares they charge, and all this fee revenue goes tax free into their coffers.

I do understand jirit's point about buying a cheap fare, and then coming back wanting to re-book on a seat that is more expensive, but I don't think that the airline calculates the new fare the way your soup example suggests. Seems to me, the calculation should be -- what would this roundtrip ticket that you now want have cost you when you first bought your ticket? But that's not what they calculate, they calculate what this return ticket would cost you if you were to buy it NOW, which is of course much more.

Example (and I think this example explains why I think jirit's soup analogy is not exactly accurate) -- In March, I buy a round trip ticket to Madrid, May 1-June 18. Fare costs me $1200. It would have also cost me $1200 to buy a RT ticket with a June 10 return, but I wanted the June 18 return. Let's say I have an emergency on the camino on June 9. I have to return home on June 10. To change my return ticket, I will have to pay the change fee ($200-$300 or maybe more), plus whatever the return half of that ticket would have sold for if I bought it today. That will add hundreds of dollars to my "change fee." Even though if I had originally bought a ticket for a June 10 return, it would have cost me the same as the ticket I did buy, with a June 18 return. I think I should not have to pay any excess fare for that rebooked ticket, just the change fee.

I agree with those who say life would be much simpler if we didn't have all of the convoluted fare pricing and just one fair price for a seat on a plane, but customers have told the airlines loud and clear that they will tolerate all of this fare gouging so long as the seats are cheaper. We are in the minority, jirit, and I think rules of supply and demand mean we aren't going to win that one any time soon. Even though I also agree that overall consumer welfare is not maximized in this situation at all.

Sorry to rant! Laurie

 

[jirit]

Hi Laurie

You have to explain more about this statement

"And one little tidbit about all of these fees that really gets in my craw is that it has had a huge impact on airlines' tax liability. They pay (local taxes at least, and maybe only in the US) taxes based on their income, which is the fares they charge, and all this fee revenue goes tax free into their coffers."

Are you suggesting that the additional fees airlines change are tax exempt?

Some think that the change fee also guarantees that you can get a new ticket at the price you would have paid back when you bought the original ticket, especially given how much the change fee is. This is not the case. The change fee is basically a transaction fee to cover the cost of cancelling one seat and booking another seat. Hence my beef on why is costs so much to do this.

The price of seats can change daily and even hourly depending on the airline, so it is unlikely the airline will offer you a different seat on a different day for the same old price - i doubt they even know what that price was back then

But you pointed out airlines like banks have discovered that "there is gold in them hills" when is comes to service fees. So the change fee is the airlines' way to squeeze more money out of people instead of changing them the true cost of the seat.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The fees are not taxed as the airline fares are, so, yes, they avoid some tax. If the airline makes a profit, it may be subject to income tax somewhere.

i doubt they even know what that price was back then

They know. Their computers continually evaluate ticket sales analyzed against previous years to maximize profit by charging the most they can and still fill the airplane. There can be as many fares as there are seats, at least theoretically.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Yield management
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Yield management is the process of understanding, anticipating and influencing consumer behavior in order to maximize yield or profits from a fixed, perishable resource (such as airline seats or hotel room reservations or advertising inventory).[1] As a specific, inventory-focused branch of revenue management, yield management involves strategic control of inventory to sell it to the right customer at the right time for the right price. This process can result in price discrimination, where a firm charges customers consuming otherwise identical goods or services a different price for doing so. Yield management is a large revenue generator for several major industries; Robert Crandall, former Chairman and CEO of American Airlines, gave Yield Management its name and has called it "the single most important technical development in transportation management since we entered deregulation." [2]

Yield management system
[URL='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation']Firms that engage in yield management usually use computer yield management systems to do so. The Internet has greatly facilitated this process. Enterprises that use yield management periodically review transactions for goods or services already supplied and for goods or services to be supplied in the future. They may also review information (including statistics) about events (known future events such as holidays, or unexpected past events such as terrorist attacks), competitive information (including prices), seasonal patterns, and other pertinent factors that affect sales. The models attempt to forecast total demand for all products/services they provide, by market segment and price point. Since total demand normally exceeds what the particular firm can produce in that period, the models attempt to optimize the firm's outputs to maximize revenue.

The optimization attempts to answer the question: "Given our operating constraints, what is the best mix of products and/or services for us to produce and sell in the period, and at what prices, to generate the highest expected revenue?"

Optimization can help the firm adjust prices and to allocate capacity among market segments to maximize expected revenues. This can be done at different levels of detail:

• by goods (such as a seat on a flight or a seat at an opera production)
• by group of goods (such as the entire opera house or all the seats on a flight)
• by market (such as sales from Seattle and Minneapolis for a flight going Seattle-Minneapolis-Boston)
• overall (on all the routes an airline flies, or all the seats during an opera production season)

Yield management is particularly suitable when selling perishable products, i.e. goods that become unsellable at a point in time (for example air tickets just after a flight takes off). Industries that use yield management include airlines, hotels, stadiums and other venues with a fixed number of seats, and advertising. With an advance forecast of demand and pricing flexibility, buyers will self-sort based on their price sensitivity (using more power in off-peak hours or going to the theater mid-week), their demand sensitivity (must have the higher cost early morning flight or must go to the Saturday night opera) or their time of purchase (usually paying a premium for booking late).

In this way, yield management's overall aim is to provide an optimal mix of goods at a variety of price points at different points in time or for different baskets of features. The system will try to maintain a distribution of purchases over time that is balanced as well as high.

Good yield management maximizes (or at least significantly increases) revenue production for the same number of units, by taking advantage of the forecast of high demand/low demand periods, effectively shifting demand from high demand periods to low demand periods and by charging a premium for late bookings. While yield management systems tend to generate higher revenues, the revenue streams tends to arrive later in the booking horizon as more capacity is held for late sale at premium prices.

Firms faced with lack of pricing power sometimes turn to yield management as a last resort. After a year or two using yield management, many of them are surprised to discover they have actually lowered prices for the majority of their opera seats or hotel rooms or other products. That is, they offer far higher discounts more frequently for off-peak times, while raising prices only marginally for peak times, resulting in higher revenue overall.

By doing this, they have actually increased quantity demanded by selectively introducing many more price points, as they learn about and react to the diversity of interests and purchase drivers of their customers.
[/URL]

 

[peregrina2000]

Hi Laurie

You have to explain more about this statement

"And one little tidbit about all of these fees that really gets in my craw is that it has had a huge impact on airlines' tax liability. They pay (local taxes at least, and maybe only in the US) taxes based on their income, which is the fares they charge, and all this fee revenue goes tax free into their coffers."

Are you suggesting that the additional fees airlines change are tax exempt?

Yes, jirit, as incredible as it may be, these fees, in addition to ripping off the consumer, also rip off the public fisc:
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/baggage-airline-fee-revenues-draw-tax-scrutiny-93073.html

 

[Deleted member 22638]

This Forum continues to be an education !

 

[RonnieSherpa]

I also understand this to be the general approach for tickets that aren't booked as fully flexible - a fee to make the changes and the fare difference. The specific rules for the different fare types should be explained to you when you make the booking, even if you are booking online and not through a travel agent. Tempting as it is to just click on the checkbox saying you have read through the terms and conditions, this is one time when it might be important to actually skim through the details.

Excellent Blog Dougfitz, looking forward to reading about your various adventures...Cheers...Specialy the Camino.

 

[RonnieSherpa]

Wow definatly a lot of info posted here, thread really opened up a bit...But knowledge is power...Cheers...

 

[peregrina2000]

Yeah, sorry RonnieSherpa, it's pretty hard to keep a thread on track when there are people like me, doug, falcon and jirit involved.

But don't worry, when you have a specific question about a specific route and price, we will get right back on track and will help you with your travel question! Laurie

 

[whariwharangi]

I'll weigh in on the airline bashing ... if you look at airline stocks on the stock exchange you will find that the profit margin for most of them is very slim. Many operate at a loss for years. It might just be creative accounting but its not a lucrative business.

 

[jirit]

To be fair to the airlines the portion that is actually the charged for the flight has more or less remained the same for the past decade.

More than 10 years I flew for business to Europe a number of times per year, and the average ticket round trip was between $1,500 - $1,700.

Today the same ticket is about $1,500 - $2,000. (this is based on booking a ticket 2-4 weeks in advance thus not buying deep discount tickets weeks in advance)

What has risen is mostly the additional government related charges from airport fees to security fees while the actual cost of the ticket has either remained the same or fallen in value. My wife's ticket to Europe was 40% government related charges. Ten years ago that amount was closer to 25%

Most governments love attaching these fees to airline travel since it another price inelastic item much like booze and smokes.
In other words the government can increase the fees no full that there is little drop in demand and hence overall tax revenues increase.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Most governments love attaching these fees to airline travel

They do provide the airports, the air traffic system, and the air safety monitoring.

 

[NicoZ]

When you change your ticket potentially the airline is getting stuck with an unsold seat (the old ticket) So you aren't paying for the new seat but for both.

The closer the cancellation is to the flight. Or if the flight isn't very full the more likely that seat you just canceled will fly empty.

Now maybe they sell most of them but the ones they don't are lost money

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Or if the flight isn't very full the more likely that seat you just canceled will fly empty.

Then they should let me sell it on eBay!!

 

[jirit]

Yes, jirit, as incredible as it may be, these fees, in addition to ripping off the consumer, also rip off the public fisc:
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/baggage-airline-fee-revenues-draw-tax-scrutiny-93073.html

Hi Laurie

I just read the article and it states that much of the extra fees charged by airlines are exempt from the 7.5 percent federal sales tax. The 7.5% sales tax is added only to the base ticket price but not to these additions charges.

So it is not a case of airlines earning additional income, that is tax free or tax excerpt, but more correctly a case whereby the government is not collecting additional sales taxes on these additional charges. Obviously these additional sales tax revenues would come from not the airlines but from the consumer themselves, in others words the flying public.

You could argue that the government is getting ripped off but many consumers would prefer that the government get ripped off instead of themselves having to pay even more taxes.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

In the U.S., the government is "us" (for better or worse). If the tax on airline ticket fares is avoided, then it must be collected somewhere else to operate the air traffic control system and airports. The choice is between general taxation, taxation of the traveler, or reduced air traffic control, convenience, and safety. I don't find it realistic to expect the aviation system to appear for free. The baggage charge could be part of the ticket fare, but then it would be taxed. As a separate fee, it is avoiding taxation. It is not an accidental policy by the airlines. Even the donativo albergues need revenue, they just don't make it compulsory. I am not sure that the Federal Aviation Administration could successfully operate on donations. Perhaps Canada has a better idea.

 

[peregrina2000]

Hi Laurie

I just read the article and it states that much of the extra fees charged by airlines are exempt from the 7.5 percent federal sales tax. The 7.5% sales tax is added only to the base ticket price but not to these additions charges.

So it is not a case of airlines earning additional income, that is tax free or tax excerpt, but more correctly a case whereby the government is not collecting additional sales taxes on these additional charges. Obviously these additional sales tax revenues would come from not the airlines but from the consumer themselves, in others words the flying public.

You could argue that the government is getting ripped off but many consumers would prefer that the government get ripped off instead of themselves having to pay even more taxes.

Hi, jirit, I think that whether the consumer ultimately is getting a lower price here depends on whether the airlines is passing along the savings that it receives from having a chunk of its income being tax free or whether it just pockets that cash and keeps the prices the same. And whether that's true or not depends on an analysis that is way above my pay grade. But my main point is that when the government set the tax rate on ticket prices, it certainly expected that the tax would be levied on the price paid by the consumer to fly from point A to point B. And that is not what's happening. So the idea about the consumer having to pay "even more" taxes is not quite accurate -- it's whether the taxpayer (be it airlines or consumer) should be able to avoid taxes on a bunch of surplus fees that are now not counted into the ticket price.

 

[jirit]

In the U.S., the government is "us" (for better or worse). If the tax on airline ticket fares is avoided, then it must be collected somewhere else to operate the air traffic control system and airports. The choice is between general taxation, taxation of the traveler, or reduced air traffic control, convenience, and safety. I don't find it realistic to expect the aviation system to appear for free. The baggage charge could be part of the ticket fare, but then it would be taxed. As a separate fee, it is avoiding taxation. It is not an accidental policy by the airlines. Even the donativo albergues need revenue, they just don't make it compulsory. I am not sure that the Federal Aviation Administration could successfully operate on donations. Perhaps Canada has a better idea.

Why do you believe there must be a tax on everything we purchase?

Check you latest airline ticket - 30-45 % of the ticket price is made up government related service charges!

Maybe that is enough do you think ?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Maybe that is enough do you think ?

Sufficient is enough. I want excellent oversight of airline safety and regulation compliance, a safe air traffic control system with well training and qualified personnel, and airports that are safe and convenient. It isn't cheap! Keep in mind that, at least in the U.S., there are thousands of airports with millions of flights, none of which has airline service and its revenue source for maintenance. The general aviation sector pays tiedown fees, fuel taxes, and occasionally landing fees (rarely). Part of the ticket tax maintains the rest of the system. Just as trucks pay a higher proportion of highway taxes than private vehicles, airlines collect a subsidy to maintain the aviation system in general. It has made the U.S. the envy of the rest of the world, where general aviation is stifled in many ways.

We the people pay the entire bill. The question is how to collect the revenue to pay the bill. The current mix of fuel tax, high prices in airport stores, landing fees, ticket taxes, and airport parking charges spreads the pain. Airline safety in the U.S. has a superb record over the last decade, and I am happy to pay the taxes (except the TSA fee, which is a ripoff; lots of bureaucracy and very little increased safety).

 

[jpflavin1]

I have no love for the airline industry. That said, I have had to fly out early the last two years. I was only charged $250. I am not sure what the mitigating factors might be that generate higher charges. Nor am I sure, what impact, if anything a certain credit card or airline loyalty might have on this charge. I can only relate to my experience.

Just as a footnote, airlines in the U.S. made $27,000,000,000. on fees last year. Therefore, these charges and fees are lucrative for them.

I also might challenge the comment that the airline business is low margin. Without knowing what your definition of low margin is, airlines like Southwest in the U.S. are profitable and charge few fees. They are just more efficiently run. Using unique approaches ^^ like aircraft Standardization to reduce cost.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[naplesdon]

None of this discussion answered the question directly. Firstly, as one response stated you can't buy your ticket for at least 6 to 12 months before your departure and return dates, that being said a lot of things could change between now and 2015. Secondly, assuming prices remain somewhat stable over the next few years I think it is safe to assume for planning purposes a round trip ticket from almost anywhere in the US to most destinations on Spain and France is going to cost between $1200 and $1500 and your best bet is to buy a round trip ticket and allow 45 days if you are planning on doing the entire 800km. Then do your planning for a bus or train from point A to point B to make it to and from your airport of choice. Personally I would be working on my daily itinerary on the Camino.

 

[jirit]

None of this discussion answered the question directly. Firstly, as one response stated you can't buy your ticket for at least 6 to 12 months before your departure and return dates, that being said a lot of things could change between now and 2015. Secondly, assuming prices remain somewhat stable over the next few years I think it is safe to assume for planning purposes a round trip ticket from almost anywhere in the US to most destinations on Spain and France is going to cost between $1200 and $1500 and your best bet is to buy a round trip ticket and allow 45 days if you are planning on doing the entire 800km. Then do your planning for a bus or train from point A to point B to make it to and from your airport of choice. Personally I would be working on my daily itinerary on the Camino.

I agree with all your points except the last one.

Yes decide on when you want to fly to Europe and where and how you might get from there to where you wish to start, etc.
Ditto on the return trip.

Book a place for the first night and last night because you know where you are going to be given you have pre booked your flights

Yes allow 45 days for the camino Frances route from saint jean to Santiago - that seems reasonable

But do do not plan a daily itinerary.

By all means create a possible walking plan

But understand more than likely it will change the moment you step out the door and start walking.

You will learn quickly from walking the camino is that anything can happen and will happen and you will learn to go with the flow.

That is part of the camino experience.

 

[jpflavin1]

I would disagree on the round trip ticket cost. I have flown to London, Barcelona and Madrid the last four years in the March/April time frame and never paid more than $880. The time of year and how far ahead you buy your ticket has a big impact on price.

I believe that 35 to 40 days is an adequate amount of time for 95% of all Pilgrims.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[naplesdon]

I agree with all your points except the last one.

Yes decide on when you want to fly to Europe and where and how you might get from there to where you wish to start, etc.
Ditto on the return trip.

Book a place for the first night and last night because you know where you are going to be given you have pre booked your flights

Yes allow 45 days for the camino Frances route from saint jean to Santiago - that seems reasonable

But do do not plan a daily itinerary.

By all means create a possible walking plan

But understand more than likely it will change the moment you step out the door and start walking.

You will learn quickly from walking the camino is that anything can happen and will happen and you will learn to go with the flow.

That is part of the camino experience.

 

[naplesdon]

Totally agree with you jirit, my point was meant to say spend some time over the next year studying the route and the place you want to visit. Some of my best days have been walking only 3 hours in the pouring rain waiting for the albergue to open while sharing beers and stories with fellow pilgrims waiting to "get dry" and some of my worse have been walking way to far to "reach some goal" and ending up in some awful dingy place for dinner and sleep. BTW, airfares below $1000 in my mind are a pipe dream!

 

[piogaw]

hello ronnie,

here is my 5 cents worth of advice.

i don't know when you will be travelling or where you will start your travel, but see if you can get on the website of air transat, a canadian low cost airlines. air transat used to be a charter airlines. the service is actually quite decent. if you sign up with them, they will informed when you can buy cheap tickets from the west coast of canada. like right now they are selling cheap tickets for next spring/summer?. i am not sure but i believe you can buy one way ticket. but travel during july, august and september will cost you an arm and a leg. i flew this airline in the last 3 years from london gatwick to toronto during july and the price kept going up. if you do the camino from november to march, the price of ticket from low cost carriers like ryanair, easyjet, vueling are at their lowest. they all fly to london.

check it out. i don't know whether it is going to save you money or not.

anyway, good luck on your planning.

 

[jsmith199]

Hi Ronnie -

I'm from Ventura also and just did the Camino this last June with my 18 year old daughter, 25 year old son and 76 year old mother. We flew from LAX to Dusseldorf International for $750 round trip. I purchased the tickets in November, so about 6-7 months before we left. There were also flights from DUS to Bilbao for about $75, but I didn't book them and the price soared to $400. I eventually bought tickets from DUS to Biarritz for $250 each. When we got to Germany, France was having a transportation strike (this happens every time I go to France). We were stuck in Germany for two nights and finally got a flight to Paris, then a bus to another airport and then a flight from Paris to Biarritz. The point of this is to be flexible. You may need a day or two extra at the beginning or end to get where you where you need to be. You are welcome to contact me if you would like more information about the Camino. We had a better than expected experience.

 

[jpflavin1]

Totally agree with you jirit, my point was meant to say spend some time over the next year studying the route and the place you want to visit. Some of my best days have been walking only 3 hours in the pouring rain waiting for the albergue to open while sharing beers and stories with fellow pilgrims waiting to "get dry" and some of my worse have been walking way to far to "reach some goal" and ending up in some awful dingy place for dinner and sleep. BTW, airfares below $1000 in my mind are a pipe dream!

Biarritzdon:

I just went on Kayak and searched airfares from L.A., Denver, Dallas, Miami, New York, Phoenix and Chicago to Madrid. Leaving December 1st returning January 9th. Not one fare was over $900.

Leaving Mid March to Late April the same thing $750 to $900.

Leaving June and returning July the prices jump to $1063 (Miami) to $1350. most of the others. New York in the middle at a $1100+.

Depending on when you plan to walk, your location, and when you make your purchase, the cost varies from $750. to $1300.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[Deleted member 3000]

There were also flights from DUS to Bilbao for about $75, but I didn't book them and the price soared to $400. I eventually bought tickets from DUS to Biarritz for $250 each. When we got to Germany, France was having a transportation strike (this happens every time I go to France). We were stuck in Germany for two nights and finally got a flight to Paris, then a bus to another airport and then a flight from Paris to Biarritz.

I always look at total travel time and expense and compare it to the naked airfare. In most cases it is more efficient to pay a bit more in airfare and avoid the time in train stations and the expense of hotels in transit. The Washington, DC area lost direct service to Spain, when Iberia merged with British Airways. All flights go through London now, and often Chicago as well (which is backwards when traveling east). Heathrow is a blight, but has become a regular part of the route.

 

[peregrina2000]

Sufficient is enough. I want excellent oversight of airline safety and regulation compliance, a safe air traffic control system with well training and qualified personnel, and airports that are safe and convenient. It isn't cheap! Keep in mind that, at least in the U.S., there are thousands of airports with millions of flights, none of which has airline service and its revenue source for maintenance. The general aviation sector pays tiedown fees, fuel taxes, and occasionally landing fees (rarely). Part of the ticket tax maintains the rest of the system. Just as trucks pay a higher proportion of highway taxes than private vehicles, airlines collect a subsidy to maintain the aviation system in general. It has made the U.S. the envy of the rest of the world, where general aviation is stifled in many ways.

We the people pay the entire bill. The question is how to collect the revenue to pay the bill. The current mix of fuel tax, high prices in airport stores, landing fees, ticket taxes, and airport parking charges spreads the pain. Airline safety in the U.S. has a superb record over the last decade, and I am happy to pay the taxes (except the TSA fee, which is a ripoff; lots of bureaucracy and very little increased safety).

Looks like more squeezing passengers for more revenue. This time the revenue comes in the form of enticing people to buy the airline's own visa or mastercard. When you do that, you get priority boarding and thus the first crack at overhead bins.

United Airlines' comment "We're always looking for ways to make travel more convenient for our customers" doesn't even pass the straight face test.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/12/business/fighting-for-space-in-a-planes-overhead-bins.html?hp

 

[Deleted member 3000]

...doesn't even pass the straight face test.

Well said! There is no place not on a used car lot where you are more consistently lied to, although cell phone billing people are real close!

 

[peregrina2000]

Unbelievable, here's the second story in as many days about airline tactics to increase their fee revenue, which as Joe pointed out is already at a staggering $27 billion.

Here's a new offer pitched at the traveler who doesn't make it to elite status but travels fairly regularly. You can buy a "subscription" for anywhere between $200 and $500 a year and you will get access to priority boarding and preferred seating, well at least if there are seats available. This is enough to make me scream.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/travel/airline-extras-at-a-package-rate.html?ref=travel

 

[lynnejohn]

I agree. A domestic airline that I fly about once a month offers a "convenient money-saving pass" - 10 one-way flights to be used within a year. Compare this to the last five return flights I took, the "convenient" pass costs about 50% more.

I have read (travel experts and columnists) that the ideal time, pricewise, to buy international tickets is 80 days and domestic tickets 35 days before departure. (I know that these numbers are based on identifying the lowest point in the previous year). In any case, has anyone followed this advice, and for the super-travelers among us, what is your experience?

 

[NicoZ]

Here's a new offer pitched at the traveler who doesn't make it to elite status but travels fairly regularly. You can buy a "subscription" for anywhere between $200 and $500 a year and you will get access to priority boarding and preferred seating, well at least if there are seats available.

Easyjet has been doing this for years I think.

Easyjet plus costs £150. If you do more then ten flights (So five return flights) you save money if you plan on the upgraded seats. Obviously if you don't fly enough or don't want those seats it's not worth it.

 

[jirit]

I agree. A domestic airline that I fly about once a month offers a "convenient money-saving pass" - 10 one-way flights to be used within a year. Compare this to the last five return flights I took, the "convenient" pass costs about 50% more.

I have read (travel experts and columnists) that the ideal time, pricewise, to buy international tickets is 80 days and domestic tickets 35 days before departure. (I know that these numbers are based on identifying the lowest point in the previous year). In any case, has anyone followed this advice, and for the super-travelers among us, what is your experience?

From my experience airline tickets are priced much like fruit and vegetables.

Depending on the demand the price can go up or down. I do agree there is some timeline that airlines use but it is not as simple as your friend suggests.

For example, in the recent past, tour operators might prebook blocks of seats holding them a period of time ( 24 - 72 hours for example) and this does impact price and availability of the remaining seats. Obviously once the hold period is over, the prices change again.

I have seen airlines simply change the price based on the number of inquiries for a high traffic route like Montreal to Paris for example. I see prices jump up the more times you inquire about a particular route, only to fall down again, once I cleaned away cookies and re opened the website.

Many websites are using this predictive analytical technique to pre estimate demand and pre calculate prices. Once you sign in, the same websites then will use you profile, prior purchasing behaviours and current inquiries to calculate a package and price just for you.

 

[peregrina2000]

I know that airlines hire armies of young people to keep track of the demand and adjust the price. Believe it or not, a few years ago I met a recent college graduate who worked for US Airways and his only job was to keep on top of the flight from Pittsburgh to some European city. All day, every day, that was all he did. There were probably a few other job assignments but that was his main job. Multiply that by the number of airlines and their total number of flights and we have a lot of people working to do nothing other than to make sure that the price of every flight is always pitched at what they determine to be the perfect sweet spot. I´m not exactly sure this is a big contribution to our GNP.

 

[jirit]

I know that airlines hire armies of young people to keep track of the demand and adjust the price. Believe it or not, a few years ago I met a recent college graduate who worked for US Airways and his only job was to keep on top of the flight from Pittsburgh to some European city. All day, every day, that was all he did. There were probably a few other job assignments but that was his main job. Multiply that by the number of airlines and their total number of flights and we have a lot of people working to do nothing other than to make sure that the price of every flight is always pitched at what they determine to be the perfect sweet spot. I´m not exactly sure this is a big contribution to our GNP.

Hi Laurie

That was the past. Not any more.

Super fast computer like the one being uses in Utah by the NSA are doing the heavy lifting.

It is called big data and predictive analytics using advance mathematical algorithms to monitor, predict and calculate the ultimate price and terms for each potential transaction.

It is getting so advanced within a few years, most vendors will be able to predict your purchasing habits and preselect services and products for you.

Trust me

 

[peregrina2000]

Well, of course, I should have known that they would have found a way to eliminate all those jobs. The only thing better than outsourcing is sourcing to a computer. Thanks for that update, jirit, it was a while ago that I met this guy, now that I think about it.

 

[jirit]

Well, of course, I should have known that they would have found a way to eliminate all those jobs. The only thing better than outsourcing is sourcing to a computer. Thanks for that update, jirit, it was a while ago that I met this guy, now that I think about it.

Hi Laurie

Do you use a Mac computer? Or an Apple iPad?

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/07/travel/la-tr-1007-spot-20121007

 

[miamijhp]

Check your flights here:

http://matrix.itasoftware.com

You are going to have an idea, what connections you have to get. Once you find what do you need, copy the information and give it to travel agent or buy directly from the airline

YOU CAN NOT BUY TICKETS HERE (YOU ARE NOT A TRAVEL AGENT). IT IS ONLY FOR INFORMATION

 

[Deleted member 3000]

give it to travel agent

They still exist??

 

[dougfitz]

Check your flights here:
http://matrix.itasoftware.com
You are going to have an idea, what connections you have to get. Once you find what do you need, copy the information and give it to travel agent or buy directly from the airline

Its probably a good idea to go to individual low cost carrier's own websites as well. The web version of the Matrix search engine didn't pick up easyJet or Ryanair when I tried to use it on routes that I know those two airlines service. It did seem to get most of the major airlines that I was expecting to see flying to Europe from Australia, but that was a quick visual check, and I wouldn't guarantee it being correct in detail. The prices are exactly the same for travel that my wife and I have booked for next year. This is a total price, including relevant taxes, but the site doesn't actually explain that.

I downloaded the Android app, which has slightly different functionality so it wasn't possible to directly compare to our booked travel. The flight options provided for Australia to Europe were the same for both desktop and Android versions, but they differed for a search for flights from LGW to SCQ. Interestingly, the Android app decoded more airport codes correctly.

It looks like a pretty competent flight search tool provided one is aware of its limitations finding low cost carriers. This might make it somewhat less attractive to forum members travelling from within Europe, but it appears to work well for those needing longer haul flights.

Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[dougfitz]

They still exist??

Yes, and certainly the one I use does quite a good job too when it comes to more complicated flight arrangements. She has saved me many thousands of dollars over using web booking engines for things like multi-city and open-jaw flight plans. I don't think you will save much using a travel agent for simple return flights - the web booking engines are just as good at that. I wouldn't use a web booking engine for more complicated travel without checking with my travel agent first, and she hasn't let me down yet.

Regards,

 

[fraluchi]

I wouldn't use a web booking engine for more complicated travel without checking with my travel agent first,

Absolutely. A good agent knows that the economic distance between point A and point B is not necessarily a straight line. The solution to the problem is to combine a good agent with one's travel expectations.

 

[NicoZ]

Its probably a good idea to go to individual low cost carrier's own websites as well. The web version of the Matrix search engine didn't pick up easyJet or Ryanair when I tried to use it on routes that I know those two airlines service..

Ryanair has tended to try and block search engines. This is one of the things they've promised to change. Along with making the smartphone app free. Only Ryanair would charge for an app to book tickets with them.

I think skyscanner does a good job with the various airlines. It's still a smart idea to then go to the actual airline.

Has it been mentioned they all have different baggage limits? That some use different airports (Even with the same city name)

The various differences can make it cheaper or at least less painful to pick one airline over the other. For example unless things have changed out of Paris Ryanair uses a distant airport. Easyjet ,Vueling etc IIRC use the two main Paris airports. That means you can save time and money on the travel between airports. So even a more expensive ticket ends up cheaper overall.