La Brique Jaune
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People have different capacities and limits, questions are usually asked in response to them. I have been cold on the San Salvador in July through bad weather and it wasn't pleasant, I take the option of extra safety and be in a position to use or not use if I wish.What am I missing?
That was similar to my initial reaction. But then I considered that it wasn't good advice to say "I did it and survived 10 times, so you don't need to be concerned at all."What am I missing? I have walked numerous caminos in cold, rainy weathers in the 20 -30s degrees for hours! With only non gortex hiking shoes, ..., a wicker sock and on really cold day an additional wool sock. Sometimes we were in snow up to our mid calves for an hour or so. After deep snow, I changed socks, when the occasion presented itself. My feet may have felt wet, but not cold?
What am I missing? I have walked numerous caminos in cold, rainy weathers in the 20 -30s degrees for hours! With only non gortex hiking shoes, ..., a wicker sock and on really cold day an additional wool sock. Sometimes we were in snow up to our mid calves for an hour or so. After deep snow, I changed socks, when the occasion presented itself. My feet may have felt wet, but not cold?
That's because you are a dog.I doubt that any vapour barrier would work effectively in a boot or shoe where there’s no prospect of air circulation. I’d also be cautious about using any impermeable waterproof barrier such as a plastic bag as - certainly in my case - the sweating implications would be horrendous.
What you are experiencing is common in non frigid temps with wet feet, such as spring and fall. Wool and synthetic socks, but wool especially, will hold body temperature in wet, soggy socks so well that the water saturating the socks actually warms up, especially with walking.
If I were in frigid temperatures of winter, I would use something as Sara and linkster suggested above: a three layer system involving a thin sock against the skin, a vapor barrier (premade of a plastic bag), and another thin wool sock.. This will not keep feet from getting wet, it will keep the moisture next to the skin warm.
Perhaps this post I have previously written may also help:
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Wet Weather Walking
Water is indomitable and will enter trail runner shoes, hiking shoes, or backpacking boots through any opening during a rainstorm, when walking through wet grass and brush, or flood into them if you walk through puddles or other standing water along the Camino.
There are two potential remedies to this problem, neither of which is effective.
1. Use rain pants to extend over the tops of shoes, trying to redirect the water running down the pant legs from making its way into the shoe. This can create other potential issues: uncomfortable and hot when it is warm outside during soggy conditions. It cannot deal with standing water, like puddles or having to step through water running on the path.
2. You can try waterproof gaiters, or a home remedy like thick plastic bags over footwear. I have yet to see the gaiter or home remedy that would keep out water PLUS keep feet dry.
“Waterproof” shoes are a sort of marketing ‘half-truth’ at best.
The waterproof/breathable materials layered inside a boot or shoe simply do not work over the near and long term because it is hard for manufacturers to cover all areas of the footwear sufficiently.
Neither the waterproof coatings, or the W/B laminates in the shoes last very long. Some makers of trail shoes, which use both fabrics and leathers, treated them with a coating that wears off. These coatings also will trap heat and sweat inside the shoe which can soak feet in sweat. When coatings break down, they are no longer waterproof.
Footwear which relies on a “Gore-Tex” style of waterproof/breathable laminate will break down through both wear and tear and dirt buildup which makes it useless.
When I have tested waterproof / breathable fabrics in shoes for various manufacturers, their actual performance never matched what was claimed. My reports to their QA departments have always reflected these weaknesses as found during testing.
Waterproof/breathable membranes, like Gore-Tex, are only marginally breathable—water vapor from perspiration does not pass through the fabric as efficiently as is claimed. So, on warm days the experience of having sweat being trapped in the shoe is common. Combined with the fact that the fabric waterproofing is quickly damaged by dirt, sweat, grime, and abrasion and it’s only a matter of time before exterior moisture begins penetrating the fabric and allowing feet to get wet.
That is why most experienced trekkers and backpackers no longer go to great lengths to keep feet dry. They accept that when the weather is wet, feet will also get wet. Even the US military uses footwear for wet conditions which is not waterproof. The strategy is how to minimize any problems when feet are wet.
In working with folks new to backpacking who ask about waterproof footwear recommendations, I have asked why they wanted waterproof shoes. Sometimes, they will look at me as if I had spaghetti sticking out of my nose. Most will answer that they think their feet will stay dry, and that having wet feet is akin to getting into horrible trouble.
This post is meant to help inform, reassure, and give a different line of thought and reasoning to this issue.
I like to have dry feet. I always try to avoid wet feet. I have tried many ways to keep my feet dry:
“Waterproof” shoes, which have not been an effective solution.
“Waterproof” socks, which have similar issues: shoes still get wet, and feet can be soaked with sweat. However – In cold weather these soaks can be the basis for using vapor barrier warmth conservation of the feet.
Wearing multiple pairs of socks, frequently changing from wet to dry, which eventually all get wet.
Carrying multiple pairs of shoes, which eventually all get wet, too.
When I first started backpacking decades ago, I fretted at getting wet feet when it was raining on the trail. No matter what I tried, feet would get wet if the weather were wet and soggy. Several things converged, causing me to investigate what, if any, successful strategies are used to keep feet comfortable and healthy in sopping wet weather. My reasoning was that IF I cannot keep my feet dry, then how do I keep feet happy and healthy. . . or at least reduce risks of bad things happening to my wet feet when walking.
Some of these lessons I learned while in Vietnam…. Like the fact that our boots had fabric tops, and that there were numerous, eyeleted holes in the thin, leather at the footbed level, which allowed water to quickly drain out so that it did not remain trapped in the boots while soaking our feet.
What are the bad things?
Maceration is the medical term for pruning, where the skin’s outer layer absorbs a lot of moisture and gets “soggy” from that moisture. The skin gets sore and extremely soft which makes it more prone to blistering and developing other problems.
Cracking of the skin when the macerated feet dry. The natural moisture and oiliness of the skin is gone. The severity depends on how much stress the skin is exposed to after it is dried out.
What works for me, and many others, when walking or backpacking in wet weather:
Apply a good, thick coating of a goop (a thick and long lasting ointment or salve) to feet and between toes before putting on socks and shoes in the morning. Repeat this a few times throughout a wet day.
This helps protect skin from external moisture. A goop which has a high content of wax – either bee or paraffin – is most ideal, especially if it also has a high lanolin content. There are a few silicon based products, like 2Toms, which are also effective at creating a moisture barrier.
Wear non-waterproof shoes which can drain, and then dry out quickly. This minimizes the amount of water puddling in the shoe which bathes the feet in moisture. Modern trail running shoes, and trail shoes often have nice open mesh fabric which is terrific for draining water.
Non-waterproof shoes will also help eliminate moisture from sweaty feet. Remember, it does not matter the source of the moisture feet are exposed to, be it rain or sweat, each can cause the same problems.
Wear thin, light-cushioned merino wool socks. Thinner padding will not absorb as much water as thicker socks. Merino wool will also keep wet feet warm and comfortable in most seasons and temperature ranges, unless the weather is frigid winter-cold.
While I prefer merino wool socks, there are some decent synthetic-blend socks, specifically designed for hiking, which can also work well.
Take off shoes and socks to let feet air dry during rest stops which will last longer than 20 minutes. During that time, I will wring out any excess moisture from the socks, but I will not put on either of my dry pairs (I take three). I will also wipe off moisture on my feet and then reapply a goodly amount of goop to my feet to help keep them from becoming macerated.
When stopping for the day, apply goop to the bottoms of feet, both before and after showering.
Carry an extra pair of insoles. These insoles do not have to be your preferred “walking” insoles that you may have purchased separately. These can be the same lightweight pair which came with your shoes. These will be the barrier between your wet footwear and your dry socks when you are done for the day and if your shoes are a bit damp come morning.
I find that at days end, I can remove the wet insoles and use absorbent paper or toweling to sop up as much moisture as is possible while I am showering and dealing with end of the day chores. When I get ready to go to dinner or to wander around town, I insert the extra pair of dry insoles into my shoes, put on a pair of dry Merino wool socks, and put my shoes back on. This accelerates drying out the shoes. Depending on the shoe’s material, within a couple of hours the shoes are mostly dry.
At bedtime, I remove the insoles and stuff absorbent material into the shoes to continue the drying out process, if need be, during the night. Most of the time the stuffing is not needed, even if the shoes are still a bit damp. They will finish drying by morning.
Apply more salve or ointment and wear dry and warm socks at night; this gives feet 8-9 hours of recovery.
I use these Rab socks both in summer when walking in wet areas, picking cloudberries or crossing arroyos, and on very cold days walking in snow as a midlayer between two socks. Keeps you warm in both cases.I have walked in heavy rain for several consecutive days in mid November in non-waterproof trail runners, and was fine. My feet were not cold, but chilly at times. My socks and shoes were soaked at the end of the day. I did change to a dry pair of socks midday. At night, I pulled the insoles out of my shoes, stuffed them with some crunched up newspaper, and they were dry by morning.
If you are really worried about it, you can improvise a layering system like Sarah suggested. A pair of liner socks, plastic bag, Darn tough sock. The plastic bag is non-breathable, and acts like a vapor barrier. It will keep moisture in, and out. The liner socks will still get damp from perspiration. The plastic will help retain your body heat. OR if you want to get fancy check out something like the Rab Vapor Barrier Socks.
Well every day’s a school day, but it would appear that VBLs are more suited to the ‘multiple days Scottish winter climbing’ application I referred to than any condition reasonably foreseeable on any Spanish camino.That's because you are a dog.
FYI. here is an article on the use of vapor barriers. Vapor Barrier Liners: Theory & Application
Seriously Dave, we walked in the low 20s with wet feet in February heading up to Foncebadon...feet never got old. About how cold do you think it might need to be before preparing to use a barrier? wouldn’t the plastic barrier create blistering?
@C clearly, my question “what am I missing” was seeking information, not trying to make a statement.
Nice article, big thanksThat's because you are a dog.
FYI. here is an article on the use of vapor barriers. Vapor Barrier Liners: Theory & Application
I wasn't intending to suggest you had made a "statement." Like you seemed to be, I was puzzled/uncertain what the OP was concerned about, since April and October are not months I would expect to be so cold as to be a problem, and in really cold weather, one wouldn't even normally get wet feet. But I didn't want to dismiss those concerns simply because you and I have never had a problem.@C clearly, my question “what am I missing” was seeking information, not trying to make a statement.
I was puzzled/uncertain what the OP was concerned about, since April and October are not months I would expect to be so cold as to be a problem
Cold and flu viruses don't enter your body through your feet - even if they are wet and cold.I was thinking if I get the feet wet in april or october-november and the temperature is cold, maybe I can get the flu or a cold.
I don't believe there is any relationship between wet feet and the flu or colds, although if your body is being treated badly and is overtired, you might be more susceptible to any infection. In winter, respiratory diseases are more common for various suspected reasons. Probably wearing a mask on your face when in company of other people would be more useful for preventing a cold or the flu, than keeping your feet dry. That is something Covid has taught us - I have not had a single cold or other illness in over a year, probably due to the measures we've all taken.I was thinking if I get the feet wet in april or october-november and the temperature is cold, maybe I can get the flu or a cold.
My initial reaction was of course not, because the alcohol will evaporate first and then the same amount of water will be left to evaporate afterward. A bit of googling reveals that it is more complicated than my ancient chemistry knowledge allows, and things like "azeotrope" were mentioned. Suffice it to say that I don't think the difference in drying time would be significant to the pilgrim.Has anyone tried spraying wet shoes and socks with rubbing alcohol to cause faster evaporation?
And certainly not worth carrying the extra weight of the alcohol in your backpack.Suffice it to say that I don't think the difference in drying time would be significant to the pilgrim.
Thanks, I was hoping alcohol would help.I don't believe there is any relationship between wet feet and the flu or colds, although if your body is being treated badly and is overtired, you might be more susceptible to any infection. In winter, respiratory diseases are more common for various suspected reasons. Probably wearing a mask on your face when in company of other people would be more useful for preventing a cold or the flu, than keeping your feet dry. That is something Covid has taught us - I have not had a single cold or other illness in over a year, probably due to the measures we've all taken.
My initial reaction was of course not, because the alcohol will evaporate first and then the same amount of water will be left to evaporate afterward. A bit of googling reveals that it is more complicated than my ancient chemistry knowledge allows, and things like "azeotrope" were mentioned. Suffice it to say that I don't think the difference in drying time would be significant to the pilgrim.
Having wet feet does not increase the chance of contracting a viral infection.Hi
I was thinking if I get the feet wet in april or october-november and the temperature is cold, maybe I can get the flu or a cold.
Added ---> I was worried about in the high elevation, like the section near Foncebadon, o Cebreiro
Thanks
Thanks, I was hoping alcohol would help.
Actually, having wet feet does increase the chance of an HPV infection (i.e. warts).Having wet feet does not increase the chance of contracting a viral infection.
Ok, different people, different choices, that's perfectly normal but I must add, feet breath in waterproof shoes, shoes are not sealed, they just don't allow water to come in but allow steam to get out.I opt for non waterproof shoes, my feet breathe much better and it dries If gets wet, with that said I carry no less then six pairs of wool socks (thins) and a minimum of twice a day I let my feet air out put on clean socks and move on
I have to gently disagree on both points. While, anecdotally, some folks have success with keeping feet dry, a large percentage do not. The success also increases with heavier boots that have less fabric areas. As time goes on the WP/B membranes that start off intact, do wear and abrade and break down and clog with dirt and oils.Ok, different people, different choices, that's perfectly normal but I must add, feet breath in waterproof shoes, shoes are not sealed, they just don't allow water to come in but allow steam to get out.
Hi To All,
I read a couple of threads about how to avoid wet feet but I think in my humble opinion the feet will come wet eventually by the rain/snow itself or the by transpiration no matters the choice of boot/shoes/waterproof/gaiters*.
My question is not really about wet feet but how to keep myself safe when the temperature go down ?, that's why I put my question in the safety section.
If I remember well, I read on the forum a post about multi-layering system: Like a waterproof sock between two pair of sock.
I think my next Camino (202?) will be around october or april.
Thanks
*Yes I know it's a big topic, I will deal with the wet feet
I think this thread underlines the truth that we are all different, and we all walk in different weathers. I have walked the last eight or so times in sandals, including a very wet, cold and muddy early spring Norte. My preference for sandals is partly because of my difficulty in finding shoes or boots that fit my weird shaped feet. Sometimes it is a matter of finding the least worst answer!
I am confused by what I have read. I wear Gore Tex waterproof boots and synthetic socks from Decathlon, when it rains, I pull PVC rain pants over my pants.
I was at Camin from mid-May to mid-June. Let’s say it was seven rainy days out of it, I walked through puddles and mud, not once did I have wet feet.
Neither from rain nor from heat.
I always and exclusively had only one pair of socks, they cost about 15 euros for two pairs of socks.
I have heard several times, not only on this forum, claims that wet feet are inevitable. Some people avoid Gore Tex materials because they are harder to dry, etc.
My 200 euro boots, 8 euro socks and 10 euro rain pants have never let me down. I never got my feet wet and I never got a blister.
Every year I walk a few hundred kilometers, comparable to Camino, my feet are always dry.
I would expect most to have the same experience as me, especially since most also buy far more expensive equipment than I have.
How is it possible that your wet feet are something expected?
What I am missing?
View attachment 96836
Of course, not all shoes are the same, just as not all feet are the same.I have to gently disagree on both points. While, anecdotally, some folks have success with keeping feet dry, a large percentage do not. The success also increases with heavier boots that have less fabric areas. As time goes on the WP/B membranes that start off intact, do wear and abrade and break down and clog with dirt and oils.
Wet feet with waterproof/breathable footwear is common. Just a quick look using the search engine will produce lots of stories of wet feet and footwear.
There is a large difference in both air circulation and breathability between non-gortex style footwear and those which do not use a laminate Waterproof/Breathable membrane. While an individual may not experience dampened feet from wearing a WP/B laminate shoe, that is often due to individual physiological differences. Ambient temperatures and conditions also play a huge role.
I do not get damp feet in my Lowa Camino (model name) boots during the times I use them in winter and icy conditions. They not only have a gortex liner, but they also incorporate some insulation as well.
But if I wear them in the spring to fall months, my socks will get damp.
You are doing great having a match with footwear that fits and feels good, and that works in wet weather. But your feet and footwear choices, as you said, are not the same and will not be what will work for everyone. Add to that the fact that people choose footwear that is lighter, like trail and street runners, that are not as adept at shedding water, will also make your experience of avoiding wet feet not a universal given.
Your information may help some to evaluate choices to try and match your experience.
I'll look out for the Subway bags. I use the bags supermarket bread comes in.A little trick for wet shoes - carry two plastic veggie produce bags. Wear them as a waterproof liner. The "Subway" sandwich bags are a nice rectangular shape.
Super handy when your shoes were soaked in the rain and you later want to leave the Albergue for dinner. No need to get your dry, warm socks wet.
Of course, not all shoes are the same, just as not all feet are the same.
Since you wore a lot of shoes and you have a lot of experience, I think you helped me with choosing next shoes.
I’ve been wearing these since 2018 and they’ve really done a lot of kilometres, I believe they’ll last another Camino this year but no more than that.
Maybe I was just lucky and came across the perfect shoes for me, which then means that I need to buy the same model again and insure myself for the next few years.
Of course, not all shoes are the same, just as not all feet are the same.
Since you wore a lot of shoes and you have a lot of experience, I think you helped me with choosing next shoes.
I’ve been wearing these since 2018 and they’ve really done a lot of kilometres, I believe they’ll last another Camino this year but no more than that.
Maybe I was just lucky and came across the perfect shoes for me, which then means that I need to buy the same model again and insure myself for the next few years.
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