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I was trying to practice the skill of compromisep.s. I just see that @Anemone del Camino loves it. My viewpoint unchanged.
I'm sure that would do just fine. Also as a compromise.In post nuber 30 of this thread, https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/growth-on-the-invierno-finally.44895/, my pal @Anemone del Camino expressed concern about the Invierno guide's inclusion of pilgrim opinions about bars and restaurants. To sum it up, she points out that a bad review may be the result of one bad apple having a bad day, and a good review may be equally misleading. Given that the numbers of Invierno pilgrims are small, one bad opinion may be more damning to a proprietor than in other guidebooks.
I thought a lot about that and have decided that it's important to keep those reviews in there. Even though the numbers of "reviewers" are small, as we go forward we gather good information and keep it up to date.
So, here's what I propose to say in the introduction about those "opinion reviews". Let me know what you think.
Note on the guide’s recommendations. Many Invierno pilgrims have offered opinions on the quality of food and lodging, and these are included here. I realize that a bad review of a restaurant may just mean that someone had a bad day in the kitchen, or the server woke up on the wrong side of the bed. So, please read these reviews with that in mind. I note instances where people have given positive reviews, especially those places where we have unanimous rave reviews. I also note the uniformly bad reviews. Those that are “mixed” are also noted. For instance, if Pilgrim number 1 goes to a restaurant and has a great meal, I will put it in the guidebook. If Pilgrim number 2, following our recommendation, goes to the same place and doesn’t like it, I will change the review to note that there are mixed opinions. So please keep those revews coming!
I'm with you on this, KinkyOne. The first time I got to Quiroga, I had read about Chapakuña as a place to eat. One bottle of Estrella later I decided it wasn't what I was looking for, which meant that I ended up in the Aroza. Beer first, great service, big free tapa, no problems getting into their comedor round the back.I'm sure that would do just fine. Also as a compromise.
I don't believe that much of "spoiled" (one-time only/tourigrinos etc., sorry for maybe inadequate expression) pilgrims would ever go for a less walked Camino, which Invierno definitely is, and a guide with this way written remarks would be a put-off for them (@LTfit).
One other suggestion (not for the guide though or maybe even yes) where there is not much of a choice of bars/restaurants in villages. Regardless of opinions and previous comments I at least go there for a beer to help make my decision regarding possible meal there. You can't really miss with a bottled beer, it's the same everywhere but you can still have a swift experience of a place/people there
Or that the pilgrim reviewer may be a bit cranky after having had a really long walk in the heat, cold or rain after a sleepless night in an albergue full of snorers who set their alarms for an early start.I realize that a bad review of a restaurant may just mean that someone had a bad day in the kitchen, or the server woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
My late father and I are the other other people I've known, who admit to cogitating!I appreciate them and am cogitating.
Do you want to police that the owners of the bars and restaurants aren't self-reviewing? Or reviewing their competitors?
In post nuber 30 of this thread, https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/growth-on-the-invierno-finally.44895/, my pal @Anemone del Camino expressed concern about the Invierno guide's inclusion of pilgrim opinions about bars and restaurants. To sum it up, she points out that a bad review may be the result of one bad apple having a bad day, and a good review may be equally misleading. Given that the numbers of Invierno pilgrims are small, one bad opinion may be more damning to a proprietor than in other guidebooks.
I thought a lot about that and have decided that it's important to keep those reviews in there. Even though the numbers of "reviewers" are small, as we go forward we gather good information and keep it up to date.
So, here's what I propose to say in the introduction about those "opinion reviews". Let me know what you think.
Note on the guide’s recommendations. Many Invierno pilgrims have offered opinions on the quality of food and lodging, and these are included here. I realize that a bad review of a restaurant may just mean that someone had a bad day in the kitchen, or the server woke up on the wrong side of the bed. So, please read these reviews with that in mind. I note instances where people have given positive reviews, especially those places where we have unanimous rave reviews. I also note the uniformly bad reviews. Those that are “mixed” are also noted. For instance, if Pilgrim number 1 goes to a restaurant and has a great meal, I will put it in the guidebook. If Pilgrim number 2, following our recommendation, goes to the same place and doesn’t like it, I will change the review to note that there are mixed opinions. So please keep those revews coming!
Yes, that negative review was not very convincing, and not helpful, given that there apparently was no choice!Here is one of an albergue I would highly recommend:
My view of it:
- Si de algo podemos calificar este albergue es de "peculiar": colchones incómodos, mal cerramiento en ventanas y puertas por lo que en mitad de la noche hace frío incluso en verano, ponen ropa de cama pero de muy baja calidad. Hospitaleras muy distantes con el peregrino y la manutención que ofrecen no se corresponden con el precio que cobran, pero que tienes que aceptar porque no hay nada cerca. Como cosa positiva, cuenta con un patio muy agradable. En definitiva, no recomendamos este albergue.
Un albergue que parece casa de muñecas, muy lindo, limpio, y con un jardín para descansar. Camas muy cómodas con sábanas y cobijas, y toalla para la ducha. Un lugar divino donde pasar la ultima noche en el Camino. La cena buena pero sin mas, porciones un poco pequeñas y sopa algo aguada - San Román y Castro especialmente ofrecen mas por el mismo precio, pero vale la pena quedarse allí.
7 of the 8 reviews about it are also very very positive.
So if this was in print (stays in the guide for a full year, or more, before a re-write is done) and printed before I went, the negative review may have had a lot of weight. If you don't have a large number of reviews you are risking not getting a very good picture, which is particularly damaging for the operator, only a nuisance to us.
There is choice, on top of the bad critique: cross the street.Yes, that negative review was not very convincing, and not helpful, given that there apparently was no choice!
But it saidYes, that negative review was not very convincing, and not helpful, given that there apparently was no choice!
tienes que aceptar porque no hay nada cerca.
Exaclty, a lie. The muni is across the road, maybe 100 meters down, next dooe to the local restaurant. I understand that Laurie wiuld know how to screen "alternate facts", but still the review had me wondering if I should stay there or not. Glad I decided to chance it. I loved my bed sheets and towels in my loft for four.But it said
Haha. I was thinking about this today and knew there would be an opportunity soon on the forum!"alternate facts"
I do my best to visit every bar, honestly! Actually, some places on the Invierno only have one (at the most, two), so you don't have much choice! When you get to a place like O Barco, then things change!I was cogitating while driving this afternoon and came up with another reason for not commenting other than for the exceptional finds, and that is that any new business that sets up shop after the guide is writen, and before it is revised, will not get airtime in favour to the ine in the guide.
And ... what about the places noone has visited, experienced, popped into? Because, and I may be wrong, I don't believe anyone has walked the Invierno with a mind to visit every shop, pension or bar, like I would asssume St John. B. does.Or maybe he doesn't systematically visit everywhere which is why he seldom comments?
Laurie, when I mentioned the laternate facts I was not talking about the review persay but about the fact the poster claimed there were no other options near by when there is one 100 meters down and across the street.And the Kellyanne Conway comment is also actually relevant to highlight something -- I'm not presenting any of this as fact, alternative or otherwise. I am presenting these comments as opinions.
Whew, this is a pretty exhaustive exploration and it's been very helpful. I think maybe I've given the wrong impression here about the type of review I am talking about. These are not paragraph-long descriptions. Essentially the question came up because this year a couple of pilgrims disagreed with the notation "recommended" for one bar/restaurant and one accommodation. So I am planning to change from "recommended" to "some like it, some don't." You are more than welcome to look at the draft when I get it done and react to specific comments that you think might be unfair.
And the Kellyanne Conway comment is also actually relevant to highlight something -- I'm not presenting any of this as fact, alternative or otherwise. I am presenting these comments as opinions. And I think most of us understand all of the caveats that people have pointed out as to why opinions about restaurants, hotels, cafes, etc may be sui generis and non-generalizable. I guess in the end I'm not persuaded that the type of comments I'm talking about are going to unfairly push a pilgrim away from one place and over to another.
One man's meat is another man's poison? We will never all agree with everyone else's opinions (in this case on restaurants or accommodation), but it's surely better to have these opinions, whether positive or negative, and then make up our own minds.
Another example: I've stayed in two places in O Barco. The first time I spent the night in La Gran Tortuga, even though it had pretty critical reviews. I found it to be excellent, with new bathrooms. The second time I thought I would change, so I stopped in the Pensión do Lor, which was recommended in the guide and had good reviews. I was not so impressed, although the shower in the room was powerful.
Both places were perfectly ok to stay, but this year I will certainly go for La Gran Tortuga again.
Oh, it's definitely open and renovated:And you know what I think, Charrito? I'm virtually certain that the negative reviews from Gran Tortuga came from a pre-renovation year. I stayed there in 2010, it was basic but nothing terrible. Then the next time I came through it was closed. Now it seems to be open again and with great reviews.
Oh, it's definitely open and renovated:
http://lagrantortuga.com/index.html#hostal
The bar is also open again.
This is what I posted in June 2015:And they refer to "habitaaciones renovadas" -- any memory of the price of a single room?
Here is one of an albergue I would highly recommend:
My view of it:
- Si de algo podemos calificar este albergue es de "peculiar": colchones incómodos, mal cerramiento en ventanas y puertas por lo que en mitad de la noche hace frío incluso en verano, ponen ropa de cama pero de muy baja calidad. Hospitaleras muy distantes con el peregrino y la manutención que ofrecen no se corresponden con el precio que cobran, pero que tienes que aceptar porque no hay nada cerca. Como cosa positiva, cuenta con un patio muy agradable. En definitiva, no recomendamos este albergue.
Un albergue que parece casa de muñecas, muy lindo, limpio, y con un jardín para descansar. Camas muy cómodas con sábanas y cobijas, y toalla para la ducha. Un lugar divino donde pasar la ultima noche en el Camino. La cena buena pero sin mas, porciones un poco pequeñas y sopa algo aguada - San Román y Castro especialmente ofrecen mas por el mismo precio, pero vale la pena quedarse allí.
7 of the 8 reviews about it are also very very positive.
So if this was in print (stays in the guide for a full year, or more, before a re-write is done) and printed before I went, the negative review may have had a lot of weight. If you don't have a large number of reviews you are risking not getting a very good picture, which is particularly damaging for the operator, only a nuisance to us.
And I think that is what bothers me the most: we will be just fine if the mattress is saggy, or the food was not warm enough, but a business that is avoided by a good segment of its potential clientele, can be destroyed. And for the Invierno, as St John B. has not yet written his guide, this guide may carry a lot of weight.
But Laurie and C. Clearly understand it, and they are the ones interested in an example of contradicting reviews. Just call it an opportunity to practice your Castellano before heading out.Put that review in the guide and many in the largely English-speaking readership wouldn't understand it.
And may I say, if the readership of this guide is mainly English Speaking it's only because the guide is in English. If it was in Castellano. I am willing to bet the vast majority of the readership would be Castallano speaking. Just look at the stats: who walks the Caminos the most? Spaniards.Put that review in the guide and many in the largely English-speaking readership wouldn't understand it.
But Laurie and C. Clearly understand it, and they are the ones interested in an example of contradicting reviews. Just call it an opportunity to practice your Castellano before heading out.
Send it along. This time having a place to print it rather than just on my IPad will make it much easier.My request for all who have weighed in here -- please volunteer to review the draft of the 2017 guide! I hope to have it ready in the next day or two. And I have to say, as I go through this day by day, it REALLY makes me want to go back. The Invierno is a superb, absolutely superb, camino!
Anemone, You HAVE to walk this Camino! There is a short legged version.Send it along. This time having a place to print it rather than just on my IPad will make it much easier.
I know, I've already worked out the etapas for people like me!Anemone, You HAVE to walk this Camino! There is a short legged version.
I volunteer to review the draft. Maybe I'll volunteer to check it on the ground too!My request for all who have weighed in here -- please volunteer to review the draft of the 2017 guide! I hope to have it ready in the next day or two. And I have to say, as I go through this day by day, it REALLY makes me want to go back. The Invierno is a superb, absolutely superb, camino!
I would be more than happy to make a living from checking facts of different Caminos on groundI volunteer to review the draft. Maybe I'll volunteer to check it on the ground too!
I think that you and I should do this together, Kinky!I would be more than happy to make a living from checking facts of different Caminos on ground
Well, that's it then. And now for the easier part - finding a sponsorI think that you and I should do this together, Kinky!
Right, we need to open a new thread first and see who comes up with our drinking money, oops, I mean the sponsorship for checking things 'sobre la marcha'!!!!!!!Well, that's it then. And now for the easier part - finding a sponsor
I just want to say "Thank You" Laurie, for your exhaustive and extraordinary efforts in producing this and your other Camino guides. You spend countless hours researching, writing, reviewing, and updating these guides all for the the benefit of others, others like me who probably wouldn't ever attempt to walk some of these lesser known routes without having your Guide in hand. It's reassuring to have the benefit of someone who you know and trust's first-hand experiences to make the way seem doable to someone like me. Muy muy gracias!!
Thanks very much, Ali, but as I'm sure you know, volunteering your time on something you love provides more benefits for the volunteer than those who make use of the results. I would, however, be glad to supervise Charrito and Kinky in their bar crawl through the Invierno.
Darn, now I know I have to go walk this route this Spring!View attachment 31395 View attachment 31396 View attachment 31397 View attachment 31398
Are you sure, Laurie?
Just an idea of what you would be in for! Taken from my 2015 Camino de Invierno. Plenty of choice there!
Well, Charrito I don't know if the photos will do. I had the chance to go for a drink with Laurie twice last year. But still she didn't see me in my bestView attachment 31395 View attachment 31396 View attachment 31397 View attachment 31398
Are you sure, Laurie?
Just an idea of what you would be in for! Taken from my 2015 Camino de Invierno. Plenty of choice there!
Seriously, guys (and gals!), we have to get together for an Invierno meet-up. I have the advantage that Ponferrada is only a couple of hours' drive away from where I live in Salamanca, so whenever anybody is around the area it would be perfect for me.Well, Charrito I don't know if the photos will do. I had the chance to go for a drink with Laurie twice last year. But still she didn't see me in my best
What about that sponsor, Laurie? Supervision is of no question, I know we both would be glad to have you with us. Even if it had to be on-line!!!
It really is up there amongst the best Caminos. Once you walk the Invierno you'll want to go back again and again!Darn, now I know I have to go walk this route this Spring!
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