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At least in Spain when they pass " la pelota" you know what you're getting, in the UK they pass the "parcel", you only know what's inside when you get into it!Jimmy Smith,
Indeed.
Check out what I just
posted in the thread Lockdowns.
What a chaotic whirl our world is in.
I couldn't agree more when I look at the current craziness of travel restrictions and rules. Mallorca over Easter and travellers from Germany (who are allowed to go by both the German and Spanish governments) versus travellers from mainland Spain (who are prohibited from going by the Spanish government) for example ...Today I read in the news that the Spanish Government will open its doors to travellers from the UK from March 31.
The fines are also on those simply going to an airport.imposing £5000 fines on those who do travel for purposes outside those defined instances.
This is what makes a lot of Spaniards angry. That they are not allowed to visit family in other provinces during Semana Santa, but that foreigners can go on holiday to Spain.I couldn't agree more when I look at the current craziness of travel restrictions and rules. Mallorca over Easter and travellers from Germany (who are allowed to go by both the German and Spanish governments) versus travellers from mainland Spain (who are prohibited from going by the Spanish government) for example ....
Not only the Spanish rules are kind of crazy.....I couldn't agree more when I look at the current craziness of travel restrictions and rules. Mallorca over Easter and travellers from Germany (who are allowed to go by both the German and Spanish governments)
Apparently, the German constitution allows laws and rules to make people stay within a radius of 15 km of their homes in a health crisis or similar public emergency but it is not possible to prohibit them from leaving the country in such circumstances. One of the surprises of the last year was learning that other countries can do this easily to their nationals and impose summary exit bans, and for a long time ...it's not legally possible in Germany to ban someone from leaving for another country
This might be related to a certain dark era in the last century. But to be honest, i did not know this myself.Apparently, the German constitution allows laws or rules to make people stay within a radius of 15 km of their homes in a health crisis or similar public emergency but it is not possible to prohibit them from leaving the country under such circumstances. One of the surprises of the last year was learning that other countries can do this easily to their nationals and impose exit bans, and for a long time ...
I shake my head in disbelief at that alsoFrom the 31st of March onwards, both the Spanish and the UK government allow you of course to fly from the UK to Spain for the purpose of "purchase, sale, letting or rental of a residential property”. I guess that includes albergues.
Typically in Europe, it's entry bans or permissions rather than exit ones -- generally, the effects are the same, but as Europe opens up at different speeds in different countries and regions, some discrepancies are inevitable.Apparently, the German constitution allows laws and rules to make people stay within a radius of 15 km of their homes in a health crisis or similar public emergency but it is not possible to prohibit them from leaving the country in such circumstances. One of the surprises of the last year was learning that other countries can do this easily to their nationals and impose summary exit bans, and for a long time ...
I have no idea, actually. I know that the UK and Belgium currently have blanket bans on leaving the country for their own nationals. Doesn't Portugal still have an exit ban on their own nationals, or does this only concern the land border with Spain? I am not addressing the issue of how such exit bans are or can be enforced, btw, it's a futile question, for me anyway, as I, as well as those who I know, do their best to live by the rules voluntarily.Typically in Europe, it's entry bans or permissions rather than exit ones
As the best reported UK National travelling overseas for property-related matters in recent months was the prime minister’s father the provision is informally known as the ‘Stanley Johnson loophole’.I shake my head in disbelief at that also
It generally takes me between 45-60 minutes to get my head 'round Portugal's policies in any given week, as even the Portuguese journalists seem to be confused by them, leading to wildly contradictory reports ; but as to this detail no, as the EU has mandated that the internal international borders of the EU are not closed.Doesn't Portugal still have an exit ban on their own nationals, or does this only concern the land border with Spain?
Only into rented accommodation in which you are the sole residents. I guess that excludes AlberguesFrom the 31st of March onwards, both the Spanish andthe UK government allows you of course to fly from the UK to Spain for the purpose of "purchase, sale, letting or rental of a residential property”. I guess that includes albergues.
I was actually thinking of all these people who want to buy an albergue or a second home on a Camino.Only into rented accommodation in which you are the sole residents. I guess that excludes Albergues
As my neighbours who winter in Portugal recently returned to Canada from their home in Portugal (near Braga), it is clear that the ban is not on leaving the country entirely; it must refer to, at minimum, the land border with Spain -- and perhaps entry into other EU countries, though I cannot comment on that.Typically in Europe, it's entry bans or permissions rather than exit ones -- generally, the effects are the same, but as Europe opens up at different speeds in different countries and regions, some discrepancies are inevitable.
Locked-down Spaniards seethe with envy as Germans flock to Mallorca ... while non-locked-down Germans seethe with envy because up to 0,05% of Germans can holiday on Mallorca over Easter and don’t (yet) have to quarantine upon their return, just take yet another test, while the rest, about 80 million of them, cannot spend their Easter holidays in their own region and in their own country, other than staying at home, because all the hotels and holiday rentals are closed there for holiday tourists. At least the Spaniards can travel and stay in those of their hotels that are open in their region.Locked-down Spaniards seethe with envy as Germans flock to Mallorca
It certainly is.Locked-down Spaniards seethe with envy as Germans flock to Mallorca ... while non-locked-down Germans seethe with envy because up to 0,05% of Germans can holiday on Mallorca over Easter and don’t (yet) have to quarantine upon their return, just take yet another test, while the rest, about 80 million of them, cannot spend their Easter holidays in their own region and in their own country, other than staying at home, because all the hotels and holiday rentals are closed there for holiday tourists. At least the Spaniards can travel and stay in those of their hotels that are open in their region.
Even the Parador in Compostela has still rooms available over Easter, though not at their cheap rate.
It’s a topsy-turvy Covid world.
Wow, that’s not bad either, seen in the Guardian today:It’s a topsy-turvy Covid world.
This is so extreme as to be unbelievable, though I have zero doubt as to your own accuracy -- a six-month quarantine, seriously ??Wow, that’s not bad either, seen in the Guardian today:
New Zealanders overseas have reacted with despair to news that the government has doubled the time returning citizens are required to stay to avoid paying a $3,100 quarantine fee. The changes, announced on Wednesday, mean people coming home from overseas will need to stay six months, rather than the previous three, to be exempt from the fee.Don’t come back unless you are wealthy, is the title of the article chosen by the Guardian. The people who are getting a particular bad deal with all these restrictions on mobility are people who live and work abroad or have close family members abroad. Being separated for a year or longer is a lot worse than not being able to walk a Camino in Spain every year.
It isn't six months in quarantine. I hope this article helps.This is so extreme as to be unbelievable, though I have zero doubt as to your own accuracy -- a six-month quarantine, seriously ??
The fact that even the generally obedient and respectful pilgrims in this forum are starting to comment on these sorts of excesses is significant.
Forcing people to stay abroad is a quarantine measure.It isn't six months in quarantine.
They are not forced..but there is a financial penalty if they do.Forcing people to stay abroad is a quarantine measure.
It seems eminently reasonable to me and I think, most Kiwis that if you want to visit ANZ for a short time then you should pay part of the cost of staying in a top class hotel for two weeks while you are in quarantine. I guess that there will always be other people who think that taxpayers should pay for them......
Don’t come back unless you are wealthy, is the title of the article chosen by the Guardian. The people who are getting a particular bad deal with all these restrictions on mobility are people who live and work abroad or have close family members abroad.
@Doughnut NZ I cannot agree with you more. I look on with admiration with the way you have dealt with things and wish you well.It seems eminently reasonable to me and I think, most Kiwis that if you want to visit ANZ for a short time then you should pay part of the cost of staying in a top class hotel for two weeks while you are in quarantine. I guess that there will always be other people who think that taxpayers should pay for them.
As we did! So this is very much an internal matter concerning ANZ and nobody else and you are in "lockstep" with many others.I note that Ireland is charging a similar amount for their mandatory quarantine. This seems very reasonable to me.
I wasn't criticising the New Zealand system of Managed Isolation and Quarantine fees, just noting with interest this measure as we had previously been talking of countries that cannot bar their own citizens from leaving the country and from returning to the country for constitutional/legal reasons. Highly paid executive expats will have no problems with the MIQ fee in NZ and provided they have the time for a 15 days visit (14 days in quarantine and 1 day with their family members), for others it will cause a big hole in their household budgets and others will not be able to afford the fee and will have to stay away. I wasn't thinking of touristic/leisure travel but of the expats situation. They are a minority, anyway.I note that Ireland is charging a similar amount for their mandatory quarantine. This seems very reasonable to me.
Out of curiosity, I had a look. Looks like any holiday booking system, there is even a "Promo Code" optionI note that Ireland is charging a similar amount for their mandatory quarantine. This seems very reasonable to me.
Expats, as you call them, are no different from anyone else who wants to visit ANZ or any other country. Travel costs. If you have the money then you can travel if you wish. For the rest of us we save to travel when we are able to and for some that means traveling rarely or not at all.I wasn't criticising the New Zealand system of Managed Isolation and Quarantine fees, just noting with interest this measure as we had previously been talking of countries that cannot bar their own citizens from leaving the country and from returning to the country for constitutional/legal reasons. Highly paid executive expats will have no problems with the MIQ fee in NZ and provided they have the time for a 15 days visit (14 days in quarantine and 1 day with their family members), for others it will cause a big hole in their household budgets and others will not be able to afford the fee and will have to stay away. I wasn't thinking of touristic/leisure travel but of the expats situation. They are a minority, anyway.
It‘s just an expression I’m familiar with for people who live and work abroad, either long or short term, without regarding themselves as emigrants/immigrants and who usually maintain strong connections to their country of origin (family, property, voting rights and so on).Expats, as you call them
To be able to hold conflicting views at the same time is a sign of spiritual development -- non-dual thinking.Today I read in the news that the Spanish Government will open its doors to travellers from the UK from March 31.
However in the very same paper I read the news that the UK Government has blocked external travel from the UK, except in very highly defined instances, imposing £5000 fines on those who do travel for purposes outside those defined instances.
Whereas I totally agree with the UK stance on non essential travel, which has been seen to spread variants that may lead to innocent people dying, I contrarily also see and agree with the economic aspects looked at by the Spanish Government.
I am resigned to not even attempting to travel this year.
I am probably more worried that I can hold opposing views on this matter in my head, at the same time.
This move was taken because many Kiwis want to move back permanently, but having to wait a long long time to get into isolation facilities. Others were returning for a 3 month holiday (I know of some), and taking up those facilities at the taxpayers' expense.It isn't six months in quarantine. I hope this article helps.
'Unless you're wealthy, don't come back': dismay over new rules for returning to NZ
Charge of $3,100 will have to be paid if a returnee leaves again within six months, instead of the previous three monthswww.theguardian.com
Without going into interminable details the UK operates a similar system of quarantine for visitors and UK residents arriving from (and passing through) a list of certain countries. To quote @Doughnut NZ it is "eminently reasonable" to expect this.This move was taken because many Kiwis want to move back permanently, but having to wait a long long time to get into isolation facilities. Others were returning for a 3 month holiday (I know of some), and taking up those facilities at the taxpayers' expense.
It certainly takes the decision to travel out of our hands, but wouldn't have it any other way!It is all whistling in the wind for Australians. From the Government website: There is a ban on overseas travel from Australia.
We can go to New Zealand if they will have us. We can apply for an exemption to travel to other places on compassionate and a few other grounds, but we might not be able to get back. If we do we will be subject to 14 days (at least) in government run hotel quarantine, for which we will have to pay.
In some ways it makes it easier because there is no decision to be made. Still dreaming though!
Ay Dios mio!Not only the Spanish rules are kind of crazy.....
We are allowed to flight to Mallorca, stay in a big hotel with big dinning rooms, restaurants ........ and come back without going in quarantine!
The politicians say it's not legally possible in Germany to ban someone from leaving for another country and if they let you in somewhere else and the hotels are open, you're lucky.
But we are not aloud to stay in a hotel or visit a restaurant in Germany and even renting a holiday house with a kitchen, almost like at home, is not possible in the whole country. In Germany everything is closed.
Even in normal years nearly everything is closed on every normal Sunday and public holiday, including Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Easter Monday - German Sundays and public holidays also apply to employees in shops - I love it!!!
So there would not even be the possibility of doing anything at the holiday resort other than sitting with the family in the holiday home, enjoying the time and go for an Easter walk- like at home.
Unfortunately forbidden.
Especially the people in the German tourist areas are very upset.
Sometimes I am not surprised that the acceptance of the corona rules in Germany and many other countries is decreasing more and more.
Still shaking my head in disbelief.Not only the Spanish rules are kind of crazy.....
We are allowed to flight to Mallorca, stay in a big hotel with big dinning rooms, restaurants ........ and come back without going in quarantine!
The politicians say it's not legally possible in Germany to ban someone from leaving for another country and if they let you in somewhere else and the hotels are open, you're lucky.
But we are not aloud to stay in a hotel or visit a restaurant in Germany and even renting a holiday house with a kitchen, almost like at home, is not possible in the whole country. In Germany everything is closed.
Even in normal years nearly everything is closed on every normal Sunday and public holiday, including Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Easter Monday - German Sundays and public holidays also apply to employees in shops - I love it!!!
So there would not even be the possibility of doing anything at the holiday resort other than sitting with the family in the holiday home, enjoying the time and go for an Easter walk- like at home.
Unfortunately forbidden.
Especially the people in the German tourist areas are very upset.
Sometimes I am not surprised that the acceptance of the corona rules in Germany and many other countries is decreasing more and more.
Dear Jimmy. Indeed there is an abundance of seemingly contradictory and ironic information. The good news emanating from this laden cornucopia is having to think for oneself and decipher which dishes to cook. If this helps: I have decided to wait until end of summer to do the Camino Mozarabe from Canada. This creative virus evolves weekly and should not trick us in making decisions one year in advance.Today I read in the news that the Spanish Government will open its doors to travellers from the UK from March 31.
However in the very same paper I read the news that the UK Government has blocked external travel from the UK, except in very highly defined instances, imposing £5000 fines on those who do travel for purposes outside those defined instances.
Whereas I totally agree with the UK stance on non essential travel, which has been seen to spread variants that may lead to innocent people dying, I contrarily also see and agree with the economic aspects looked at by the Spanish Government.
I am resigned to not even attempting to travel this year.
I am probably more worried that I can hold opposing views on this matter in my head, at the same time.
I am glad that I didn't hold my breath: Spain's general entry ban on people who do not live in EU+ has been prolonged today until the end of April 2021. This general entry ban applies to people who live in the UK, with the exception of people who live there but hold a passport of an EU country or a residency card of an EU country - this group will now be allowed to travel again from the UK to Spain as of 31 March 2021, as far as the authorities in Spain are concerned.A word of caution as to the end of March: there are currently two travel bans imposed by Spain on travellers from the UK. One of them, the stricter one, will end on the 30th of March and the Spanish government has announced that it will not be prolonged. As to the other entry ban ... I wouldn't hold my breath.
Today I read in the news that the Spanish Government will open its doors to travellers from the UK from March 31.
However in the very same paper I read the news that the UK Government has blocked external travel from the UK, except in very highly defined instances, imposing £5000 fines on those who do travel for purposes outside those defined instances.
Whereas I totally agree with the UK stance on non essential travel, which has been seen to spread variants that may lead to innocent people dying, I contrarily also see and agree with the economic aspects looked at by the Spanish Government.
I am resigned to not even attempting to travel this year.
I am probably more worried that I can hold opposing views on this matter in my head, at the same time.
Today I read in the news that the Spanish Government will open its doors to travellers from the UK from March 31.
However in the very same paper I read the news that the UK Government has blocked external travel from the UK, except in very highly defined instances, imposing £5000 fines on those who do travel for purposes outside those defined instances.
Whereas I totally agree with the UK stance on non essential travel, which has been seen to spread variants that may lead to innocent people dying, I contrarily also see and agree with the economic aspects looked at by the Spanish Government.
I am resigned to not even attempting to travel this year.
I am probably more worried that I can hold opposing views on this matter in my head, at the same time.
Well, that should enliven the conversation ... welcome to the discussion, @Gerard Griffin. I'm glad to read in a previous post from you what your own passport/leaving own country/entering Spain or Portugal situation is. It just makes understanding comments so much easier on this international forum. At least you are not a German tourist on Mallora or a French tourist in Madrid. They are the real pariahs on the forum of public and private opinion right nowIf the Black Death didn't stop the Camino then why must Covid? We need it now more than ever. In which spirit I started the VDP last Thursday and have reached Monasterio. It's wonderful to be back. There are even some hostels open, and nearly all guesthouses and hotels. Camping out is very easy as well. To those who may be vacillating, I'd say: don't wait, just go. Now is the time.
BTW, what do you mean with "if the Black Death didn't stop the Camino"? Caminos are roads, of course a disease can't stop roads. And people in the Middle Ages weren't daft either: they closed the doors in their town walls and did't let any foreigner in, not even a pilgrim. Town walls have of course largely disappeared during the last 600+ years. You'd be surprised how many restrictions on people and goods traffic were imposed by some medieval towns then that aren't any different from today. We all are immensely privileged today. We enjoy the luxury of worrying about the occupancy rate of beds in intensive care units. We also have the luxury of being able to tolerate a few not following the urgent advice to avoid non-essential travel. It's manageable as long as they are not too many ...If the Black Death didn't stop the Camino then why must Covid? We need it now more than ever. In which spirit I started the VDP last Thursday and have reached Monasterio. It's wonderful to be back. There are even some hostels open, and nearly all guesthouses and hotels. Camping out is very easy as well. To those who may be vacillating, I'd say: don't wait, just go. Now is the time.
Spain doesn't care about this. They make their own rules. Then they publish them in their state bulletin. Month after month, with start and end dates. Pedro Sanchez rarely stages TV performances about all this. Different strokes for different folks.I think to have been continually told that you are not invited to come to a party when you have already said that you are unable and unwilling to come is to misunderstand irony.
Oh? It was true on the day I actually wrote the original thread. A cursory glance at official documents would have confirmed that fact. Sorry that I didn't think to update that fact! But the thrust of the missive was the fact that the rules taken as a pair were contradictory, whereas, separately for each nation made perfect sense at the time.The main point is, however, that the premise of this thread that the Spanish Government will open its doors to travellers from the UK from March 31 is plain wrong.
Sorry but even if you manage to do this, which I doubt, i.e. if airline staff would let you board, it is clearly against the law. Against Spanish law. What matters is not your last airport (Ireland) but where you come from (UK).Next, get to Spain. Circumvent all restrictions, eg if in UK, fly to Eire and then to Spain
No, it wasn't true on the day you started the thread. It only sounded as if it were true because of the way newspapers understood/presented a press release from the Spanish government. I am sure that a lot of readers had been misled.Oh? It was true on the day I actually wrote the original thread.
From the start, Kathar1na, this has been a difficult exercise in the separation of fact from rumour and speculation.I've been trying to keep track and have just posted yet another update with links to the current rules imposted by Spain (post does not contain links to what one can read in the news). This concerns the view from Spain's side of their sea, air and land borders. Everyone needs to keep track themselves of what it looks like from their side of these borders.
Sorry, I don't get this.Keep it simple. First, make sure you're safe and not putting others at risk (vaccine, PCR test, 3 meters distance, surgical mask). Next, get to Spain. Circumvent all restrictions, eg if in UK, fly to Eire and then to Spain (10 euro Dublin to Malaga). Next, set off on the Camino. No hostel? Take a hotel if you can afford it, tent or bivi bag if not). Let's get this show on the road. Pay no attention to irrational fear or the machinations of bureaucrats. Of you want to go on Camino, go. You can. You need the Camino and it needs you. Go now. I did ... I started the VDP five days ago and it's fantastic. Arriba!
There is a specific UK/Eire/EU protocol in place to stop people attempting this.Circumvent all restrictions, eg if in UK, fly to Eire and then to Spain
Gerald's comment is only the first of many similar posts to come in the next few weeks. Brace yourselves.Sorry, I don't get this.
Awwwww. I'm braced and a little despondent.Gerald's comment is only the first of many similar posts to come in the next few weeks. Brace yourselves.
I do understand and sympathise with the sentiment of it -- indeed I plan on restarting my own current Camino just as soon as it shall become legally and sensibly possible to do that.Gerald's comment is only the first of many similar posts to come in the next few weeks. Brace yourselves.
There are two things that annoy me about these freedom fighter posts: first that those of us who don't go live in irrational fear or bow to the will of stupid bureaucrats. As if there are no such things as a sense of responsibility, a sense of solidarity, a willingness to voluntarily sacrifice and renunciation. And the pseudo argument that our pilgrim cents are needed to save the local economies abroad. As if they wouldn't also help to save the local economies at home.Awwwww. I'm braced and a little despondent.
There is more to mandatory/legislative requirements. There are moral codes as well.There are two things that annoy me about these freedom fighter posts: first that those of us who don't go live in irrational fear or bow to the will of stupid bureaucrats. As if there are no such things as a sense of responsibility, a sense of solidarity, a willingness to voluntarily sacrifice and renunciation. And the pseudo argument that our pilgrim cents are needed to save the local economies abroad. As if they wouldn't also help to save the local economies at home.
Describing mandatory or legislative requirements doesn't mean that the poster approves of them or condemns them. She may just want to clarify the actual situation to the best of her abilities, making value-free statements. True Sisyphus work on the net.There is more to mandatory/legislative requirements. There are moral codes as well.
I am struggling to either "understand or sympathise" sometimes. I wish you well.
I guess that whether we approve or disapprove might not be the important issue...we just have to comply.Describing mandatory or legislative requirements doesn't mean that the poster approves of them or condemns them. She may just want to clarify the actual situation to the best of her abilities. True Sisyphus work on the net.
Why not read the source? The newspapers may have put a particular twist on the matter, but it was based on exactly what the Spanish Government stated. I have enough Castillian Spanish to be able to read the actual documents having been educated to BACC level in Spain. To accuse me of lying and twisting the original post to the lengths you have is quite puzzling.No, it wasn't true on the day you started the thread. It only sounded as if it were true because of the way newspapers understood/presented a press release from the Spanish government. I am sure that a lot of readers had been misled.
I understand what you are saying about contradictions, of course. That's why it's usually nonsense when people say "the borders are closed". We've now had a whole year to learn that first of all, they usually aren't closed for everyone and secondly they may be closed from one side but not from the other. And there's usually nobody there to check on you (ok, that does not apply to small and large island nations) and there's no physical barrier to stop you.
It's very likely that pilgrims helped to spread the plagueIf the Black Death didn't stop the Camino then why must Covid?
And today 200 still die of the Bubonic plague annually.It's very likely that pilgrims helped to spread the plague
The medieval pilgrimage routes, key to the spread of the Black Death
According to a study, populations located within commercial roads or pilgrimage like the Camino de Santiago are weaker against the spread of epidemicsvivecamino.com
@Jimmy Smith, my post wasn't "aimed" at you. It was intended as a gentle nudge to remind all contributors that these are troubled, and troubling times. Though this is an English language forum not all members come here with english as a first language and the intricacies of english grammar frequently defeat this english grammar schoolboy. The meaning of meaning and what was meant have led us all at times into unpleasant places. A deep breath and another attempt at explanation are always worthwhile. I once asked a previously friendly gentleman if I could sleep with his son - meaning share the room - I used the wrong verb.The topic was about holding and justifying two opposed ideas at the same time, the Irony was the Governmental situation in two countries that in practice were impossible to reconcile. The fact is only a couple of folks saw that point. To be accused of an untruth is the same as be accused of lying.
Tinca as moderator you have every right to post a warning. As far as I am concerned you can delete the whole thread. I am Not a "freedom fighter", I never at any time suggested breaking the rules or even criticising the rules, nor am I a liar.
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