DoughnutANZ
Ka whati te tai ka kai te tōreapango
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ThanksI lived in Spain last year running an albergue and am now back in The Netherlands. We are still in lockdown and are trying to manage our Covid cases and deaths as is much, if not all of Europe - that's what the conversation is about, and projecting when we will be vaccinated and may have more than one visitor a day in our homes.
Thanks for this informational comment.I would say that the Camino is indeed irrelevant from a financial point of view (approximately 0.4% of the total number of tourists and tourists with a very low rate of expenses per day), but instead it can be seen that governments (as much national and regional as local) are paying a lot of attention to the Camino (construction and maintenance of paths, signaling, public facilities, ...) ..... Why this contradiction?
INHO, The importance of the Camino cannot be assessed only from a financial point of view, forgetting other important aspects. Among others, the following aspects must also be taken into account to evaluate the importance of the Camino:
And so on, I'm sure you can think of other different reasons that make the Camino a valuable asset.
- The Camino is an ancient tradition that has played a key role in shaping Spain and even Europe. Spaniards are very attached to traditions and most people consider that it deserves to protect them.
- For the most part, with some exceptions, the Camino passes through areas with a low density of international tourism, so it does not contribute to the overcrowding of touristic areas.
- For the most part, the Camino goes through areas full of very small towns that won't last long without the Camino. In this sense, it is helping to maintain the population in depopulated, aged and depressed areas.
- The average pilgrim, due to his behavior and motivation, is a valuable asset (much more valuable than the average tourist in Magaluf as an example).
- The Camino promotes the knowledge of a different Spain, not only the Spain of the beaches and the sun, but that of an important cultural heritage (Spain is the third country in the world by number of World Heritage Sites).
- .....
In summary, I just think that the usefulness of the Camino cannot be assessed only taking into account its economic aspect, which is also important and also has to be taken into consideration.
Finally, it is clear that in Spain the remodeling of tourism is a key debate. With 84 million tourists (2019) and only 47 million inhabitants, tourism is one of the fundamental issues. Much has been said about how to de-mass tourism, how to achieve more respectful tourism, etc. But I have never heard the Camino criticized for its low economic interest.
This is something that, since it is evident for pilgrims, is not so evident for the general population, who have mostly never walked the Camino. Some initiatives have been proposed, not very successfully, such as requiring 300 km for the granting of the Compostela.As repeat pilgrims, we sometimes grumble about how it has become more commercialised and over crowded.
I would say of of them!this conversation doesn't or hasn't yet encompassed pilgrims or Camino tourists. Either because the numbers are too small compared with other forms of tourism or because the pilgrimage has a special aura that invites protection or because it is seen in a positive economic light in rural and small town Spain
I would say that most pilgrims are quite respectful, both with the environment and with the people of the place, shops and local facilities. It is clear that, unfortunately, there are exceptions and it is also clear that we all have to try to improve our behavior. Anyway, considering the number of pilgrims, most places are reasonably clean, etc., which shows that most pilgrims care a lot about their behavior. As I have been hospitalero, I am very aware of the exceptions! LOLI guess one takeaway for me from this is how do I become a more respectful pilgrim?
Is pilgrimage a form of tourism?
I say, yes, I think we (pilgrims) are a form of tourism, whether we want to think so or not, even if many consider what they/we do as a pilgrimage.For yourself, this is something you have to decide for yourself. For the authorities, it is. It's also a cultural fact, it is also a ...
Methinks I was a happier human when I was just a visitor, ignorant of rules written or otherwise. I took my natural good manners with me and spent my pennies cheerfully. Didn't know anything about forums either and wore the gear of my choice, the rucksack from the army and navy surplus stores and the tent I could afford. I sure as hell wasn't wearing a scallop shell or using poles and I like to think the locals liked me as much as I liked them.Tourism represents about 20% of Aotearoa New Zealand's exports, a significant proportion. Spain has perhaps an even greater proportion.
In ANZ now, like many other countries, there is close to nil international tourists. As a result local tourists are enjoying visiting popular parts of ANZ without huge crowds of overseas tourists.
This, in turn, has sparked a conversation within ANZ about if this is a good time for a tourism reset. Instead of hoards of backpackers and wild camping van tourists we are wondering if going more upmarket might be good for ANZ overall and might enable a greater contribution to lowering carbon outputs by reducing tourist numbers and journeys.
I am wondering if a similar conversation is going on within Spain at the moment?
If it is then this is very relevant to future Camino planning as most current pilgrims are closer to being backpackers than they are to upmarket visitors.
I am not interested in discussing the pros and cons of backpackers vs up-market tourists. Nor am I interested in your political opinions. So, possibly this question needs to be answered by people who live in Spain.
If there is currently a wider trans-EU conversation in this vein then perhaps residents of other EU countries could answer if their own country is having this conversation.
As an example, pre-Covid there were conversations in places like Barcelona about the possibility of limiting tourist numbers and certainly there were similar conversations in Venice, Italy.
What say you, Spanish and possibly EU residents?
Obviously, people whose current business model is based around large numbers of backpacker type tourists are going to have strong opinions and so, if possible, I would like to exclude those opinions. Like I said, I am more interested in if the conversation is happening than the pros and cons of an actual change.
I think that Boutan did this exercise few years ago. They calculate how cost the tourism in their country ( pollution + waiste impact on country etc.) They realize that 250$ US per day would be the cost of any tourist for a day. This price include food and accomodations. And give s profit to the country as well.Tourism represents about 20% of Aotearoa New Zealand's exports, a significant proportion. Spain has perhaps an even greater proportion.
In ANZ now, like many other countries, there is close to nil international tourists. As a result local tourists are enjoying visiting popular parts of ANZ without huge crowds of overseas tourists.
This, in turn, has sparked a conversation within ANZ about if this is a good time for a tourism reset. Instead of hoards of backpackers and wild camping van tourists we are wondering if going more upmarket might be good for ANZ overall and might enable a greater contribution to lowering carbon outputs by reducing tourist numbers and journeys.
I am wondering if a similar conversation is going on within Spain at the moment?
If it is then this is very relevant to future Camino planning as most current pilgrims are closer to being backpackers than they are to upmarket visitors.
I am not interested in discussing the pros and cons of backpackers vs up-market tourists. Nor am I interested in your political opinions. So, possibly this question needs to be answered by people who live in Spain.
If there is currently a wider trans-EU conversation in this vein then perhaps residents of other EU countries could answer if their own country is having this conversation.
As an example, pre-Covid there were conversations in places like Barcelona about the possibility of limiting tourist numbers and certainly there were similar conversations in Venice, Italy.
What say you, Spanish and possibly EU residents?
Obviously, people whose current business model is based around large numbers of backpacker type tourists are going to have strong opinions and so, if possible, I would like to exclude those opinions. Like I said, I am more interested in if the conversation is happening than the pros and cons of an actual change.
I will explain a little about what prompted this thread.@Doughnut NZ, i'm intrigued by the question but struggling to find a fitting response. The Camino and its Pilgrims are such a minor part of Spains tourist industry that they are unlikely to figure in any government planning. The Galician tourismo has devoted significant effort and €'s to promoting (and improving(?)) the Camino, and will no doubt continue to do so, because Galicia lacks the classic go-to's of sun, sex & sangria. On a national level? De nada.
This is similar to ANZ but is more focused on how the tourism industry can survive UNTIL the international tourists return. It is not so much about a long term strategy.In the UK the entire conversation is on Staycation and the opportunities that that offers to build more theme parks, holiday camps and convert more rural homes into "holiday" cottages. Still, I guess that the young people who might have stayed in their home villages will instead get a nice job in the big city dealing with the phone calls from holidaymakers wondering why the village is so dead.
Yes but it is not a binary, lets choose this lot and have none of those. It is more subtle, lets have a few more of these and a few less of those.I'm intrigued by the concept of taking tourism up-market. So, no back-packers, no van-campers, no Fred & Florrie on a fortnights package: just nice rich (carbon-offset paid) people willing to pay loads to stay.
It is exactly what gets done when we are through this that I am concerned about.De-massing of tourism? I think thats been done for us in the last 12 months. Let's wait & see if there is anything like a tourism industry again.
You are absolutely right here. One could add that 0.4% overlooks the fact that most of these 0.4% stay a lot longer than two weeks, and that they visit areas and places tourists don't always visit: I am quite convinced that pilgrims are keeping many local businesses alive which in turn keep the local communities alive. Another point is that the pilgrim demographic is subtly changing - even on this forum one gets the impression that more and more pilgrims are switching from municipal albergues to private albergues and hotels - your last paragraph relates to this. Either way, the Spanish generally value the Camino, and that can't be a bad thing.I would say that the Camino is indeed irrelevant from a financial point of view (approximately 0.4% of the total number of tourists and tourists with a very low rate of expenses per day), but instead it can be seen that governments (as much national and regional as local) are paying a lot of attention to the Camino (construction and maintenance of paths, signaling, public facilities, ...) ..... Why this contradiction?
INHO, The importance of the Camino cannot be assessed only from a financial point of view, forgetting other important aspects. Among others, the following aspects must also be taken into account to evaluate the importance of the Camino:
And so on, I'm sure you can think of other different reasons that make the Camino a valuable asset.
- The Camino is an ancient tradition that has played a key role in shaping Spain and even Europe. Spaniards are very attached to traditions and most people consider that it deserves to protect them.
- For the most part, with some exceptions, the Camino passes through areas with a low density of international tourism, so it does not contribute to the overcrowding of touristic areas.
- For the most part, the Camino goes through areas full of very small towns that won't last long without the Camino. In this sense, it is helping to maintain the population in depopulated, aged and depressed areas.
- The average pilgrim, due to his behavior and motivation, is a valuable asset (much more valuable than the average tourist in Magaluf as an example).
- The Camino promotes the knowledge of a different Spain, not only the Spain of the beaches and the sun, but that of an important cultural heritage (Spain is the third country in the world by number of World Heritage Sites).
- .....
In summary, I just think that the usefulness of the Camino cannot be assessed only taking into account its economic aspect, which is also important and also has to be taken into consideration.
Finally, it is clear that in Spain the remodeling of tourism is a key debate. With 84 million tourists (2019) and only 47 million inhabitants, tourism is one of the fundamental issues. Much has been said about how to de-mass tourism, how to achieve more respectful tourism, etc. But I have never heard the Camino criticized for its low economic interest.
Before the pandemic we had issues of overcrowding that was forcing out locals, environmental destruction from too many people leaving their litter and faeces everywhere and because we are so far away from most people the carbon cost of getting people here is very high.
Can we use the recovery money to help mitigate these issues while recovering the tourist industry or should we not even try to recover international tourism and spend that recovery money on developing new industries with less secondary issues?
Hmmm, I am a little confused. I am not seeking information about pilgrimage during or after a pandemic.Pandemics and pilgrimage/tourism (whatever your choice) is not new. You can even go back to the effects of the Black Plague on the Camino - pilgrims being carriers - or the illnesses that affected those travelling to Jerusalem.
And since it is not an unknown event, there is likely to have been in-depth studies that suggest the likely responses being considered. Perhaps these could be a working list of the items you wish to propose. A quick search offers up the following studies:
- Dengue epidemic in Touba, Senegal: implications for the Grand Magal Pilgrimage for travellers
- [BOOK] Pilgrimage, Politics, and Pestilence: The Haj from the Indian Subcontinent, 1860–1920
- Pilgrimage and COVID-19: the risk among returnees from Muslim countries
- Crisis Management and The Impact of Pandemics on Religious Tourism
- Pilgrimage of pain: the illness experiences of women with repetition strain injury and the search for credibility
- The Hajj pilgrimage during the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020: event hosting without the mass gathering
- The annual Hajj pilgrimage—minimizing the risk of ill health in pilgrims from Europe and opportunity for driving the best prevention and health promotion …
- Outbreak of serogroup W135 meningococcal disease after the Hajj pilgrimage, Europe, 2000
Meningococcal carriage among local inhabitants during the pilgrimage 2000–2001
I follow news from Spain and other European countries on and off and I have not noticed the kind of conversations about a reset that you mentioned for NZ. I vaguely remember having read one article last year were it said that local people were enjoying walking on stretches of the CF - daily walks, not anything remotely pilgrimage related - and liked the absence of tourists/pilgrims. That is the extent of my knowledge in this respect.I am interested in how Spain plans to recover its tourism industry and how this might or might not affect the Camino
"The nine-month shepherding course includes nearly 500 hours of online training and one weekend a month of hands-on instruction set against the mountains and deep valleys of Cantabria, and after registration got under way earlier this year, 265 applications came pouring in. “It was a very pleasant surprise,” said Pacheco. “It’s clear that we’re meeting a need that exists in society.”There was an article today in the Guardian which at first glance seemed to be about one subject but embraced many others. It, on first viewing, looked as if the subject was about rural opportunities for women but, within the article, touched on many subjects which perhaps need to be thought through and a rebalance or reset established.
I found it very interesting and it did touch on tourism, gender and age demographics and how Spain balances and micro manages its society and economy.
School for female shepherds aims to restore balance in Spain's countryside
As more women leave rural areas for cities, course forms part of drive to revive villageswww.theguardian.com
I expect there is a lot more involved than appears at first glance."The nine-month shepherding course includes nearly 500 hours of online training and one weekend a month of hands-on instruction set against the mountains and deep valleys of Cantabria, and after registration got under way earlier this year, 265 applications came pouring in. “It was a very pleasant surprise,” said Pacheco. “It’s clear that we’re meeting a need that exists in society.”
500 hours of training for sheep shepherding !!??
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I expect this conversation to heat up as Spain and the EU get through most of the Covid issues and start spending money on recovery.Only indirectly related to the topic but perhaps useful nevertheless to better assess the economic impact and other impacts of the Caminos. We often read how Spain is so very dependent on tourism so I was surprised to see figures for those EU countries that are most dependent on tourism (as % of GDP), see below. I wonder whether the situation is different in Spain compared to say Austria because Spain has such huge concentrations of international mass tourism hotspots in the summer mainly, like the islands and the coast on the south, while it’s more evenly distributed over seasons and territories in Austria.
Galicia, CyL and Rioja aren’t really hotspots of international tourism. Santiago de Compostela I think has taken some measures to reduce the pressure of too big an influx and to increase the “quality” of visitors in the sense that they want to see more people who stay longer than one night and I vaguely remember that the town does not allow the opening of new albergues/hostals but, again, that was already before 2020. Also, the number of foot pilgrims compared to the total number of visitors in Santiago is small. Something like 350,000 to 2 million?
As I said, I am not aware of the kind of conversation mentioned in the first post but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. If anything, the current crisis may reenforce and accelerate the existing trend to “slower” and more “meaningful” travel and tourism, both on the side of the travellers and the economic actors.
- Croatia (25%)
- Cyprus (22%)
- Greece (21%),
- Portugal (19%)
- Austria , Estonia, Spain (15%)
- Italy (13%)
- Slovenia, Bulgaria (12%)
- Malta (11%),
- France (10%)
- Germany (9%)
These figures may be direct tourism, it depends where you got them from. I have huge respect for your research skills and so I don't doubt them but with almost double Spain's population as annual tourists there has to also be very wide spread effects including on remote areas such as infrastructure and roading.Only indirectly related to the topic but perhaps useful nevertheless to better assess the economic impact and other impacts of the Caminos. We often read how Spain is so very dependent on tourism so I was surprised to see figures for those EU countries that are most dependent on tourism (as % of GDP), see below. I wonder whether the situation is different in Spain compared to say Austria because Spain has such huge concentrations of international mass tourism hotspots in the summer mainly, like the islands and the coast on the south, while it’s more evenly distributed over seasons and territories in Austria.
Galicia, CyL and Rioja aren’t really hotspots of international tourism. Santiago de Compostela I think has taken some measures to reduce the pressure of too big an influx and to increase the “quality” of visitors in the sense that they want to see more people who stay longer than one night and I vaguely remember that the town does not allow the opening of new albergues/hostals but, again, that was already before 2020. Also, the number of foot pilgrims compared to the total number of visitors in Santiago is small. Something like 350,000 to 2 million?
As I said, I am not aware of the kind of conversation mentioned in the first post but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. If anything, the current crisis may reenforce and accelerate the existing trend to “slower” and more “meaningful” travel and tourism, both on the side of the travellers and the economic actors.
- Croatia (25%)
- Cyprus (22%)
- Greece (21%),
- Portugal (19%)
- Austria , Estonia, Spain (15%)
- Italy (13%)
- Slovenia, Bulgaria (12%)
- Malta (11%),
- France (10%)
- Germany (9%)
I got them from a webpage about The EU helps reboot Europe's tourism. Although quite an official website, the ranking of these countries may be less meaningful than I initially thought, and this kind of information webpages are not error free. I was looking for more pertinent info actually but didn’t see anything more useful than a reference to “green and digital transformation“.These figures may be direct tourism, it depends where you got them from
Interestingly, that site contains this quote:I got them from a webpage about The EU helps reboot Europe's tourism. Although quite an official website, the ranking of these countries may be less meaningful than I initially thought, and this kind of information webpages are not error free. I was looking for more pertinent info actually but didn’t see anything more useful than a reference to “green and digital transformation“.
The site also makes mention of controlling tourism flows and diversifying tourism.I got them from a webpage about The EU helps reboot Europe's tourism. Although quite an official website, the ranking of these countries may be less meaningful than I initially thought, and this kind of information webpages are not error free. I was looking for more pertinent info actually but didn’t see anything more useful than a reference to “green and digital transformation“.
Thank you for that. It was interesting.I got them from a webpage about The EU helps reboot Europe's tourism. Although quite an official website, the ranking of these countries may be less meaningful than I initially thought, and this kind of information webpages are not error free. I was looking for more pertinent info actually but didn’t see anything more useful than a reference to “green and digital transformation“.
Hmmm. I always felt the villagers were kind; quick to get our attention and point us in the right direction if they noticed we were heading off the wrong way or appeared confused.I would like to walk some variant of the CF again, possibly repeating every year or two, but if an underlying resentment to foreigners is developing along The Way, I think I would prefer to go somewhere else.
Hmmm, I am a little confused. I am not seeking information about pilgrimage during or after a pandemic.
I am interested in how Spain plans to recover its tourism industry and how this might or might not affect the Camino.
Thanks for your contribution anyway
I think Austria is be boosted by winter sports and Mozart (plus a nameless film). The beauty of the Alps and the Tyrol means that it has all year round appeal.Only indirectly related to the topic but perhaps useful nevertheless to better assess the economic impact and other impacts of the Caminos. We often read how Spain is so very dependent on tourism so I was surprised to see figures for those EU countries that are most dependent on tourism (as % of GDP), see below. I wonder whether the situation is different in Spain compared to say Austria because Spain has such huge concentrations of international mass tourism hotspots in the summer mainly, like the islands and the coast on the south, while it’s more evenly distributed over seasons and territories in Austria.
Galicia, CyL and Rioja aren’t really hotspots of international tourism. Santiago de Compostela I think has taken some measures to reduce the pressure of too big an influx and to increase the “quality” of visitors in the sense that they want to see more people who stay longer than one night and I vaguely remember that the town does not allow the opening of new albergues/hostals but, again, that was already before 2020. Also, the number of foot pilgrims compared to the total number of visitors in Santiago is small. Something like 350,000 to 2 million?
As I said, I am not aware of the kind of conversation mentioned in the first post but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. If anything, the current crisis may reenforce and accelerate the existing trend to “slower” and more “meaningful” travel and tourism, both on the side of the travellers and the economic actors.
- Croatia (25%)
- Cyprus (22%)
- Greece (21%),
- Portugal (19%)
- Austria , Estonia, Spain (15%)
- Italy (13%)
- Slovenia, Bulgaria (12%)
- Malta (11%),
- France (10%)
- Germany (9%)
Here are some suggestions and examples from ANZ, not all will be applicable to Spain and the EU but they may prompt ideas. Please note, I am NOT advocating for any of these ideas, they are simply discussion starters.Yes, of course there are discussions across Europe about the future and quality of tourism. Not sure what Spain's plans looks like, here in Austria there are all sorts of ideas being tossed around. Limiting access to towns like Hallstatt or Salzburg with daily quotas, is just one hard to implement idea.
I am somewhat cautious if any of the plans of sector upgrading can succeed, since most of the debates are lead by "meinungsforscher" and politicians.
Plus, with companies such as Cryin Air or Queasyjet jetting us around the continent for 35.00 roundtrip, allowing everyone to visit and whine about how expensive Paris is (it is not), there cannot be a serious, meaningful change in tourism.
This is a double edged situation. Camino pilgrims may well be too small a group to target but the small size may also mean that pilgrims get forgotten and caught up negatively in changes targeted at larger groups.I have no specific knowledge but If Spain is like most countries, I would think "The Camino" will have very little impact on their recovery plans for tourism. Countries usually focus on the areas that will get them the biggest bang for their buck and the industries that create the most noise and make the largest political contributions. I am somewhat cynical when it comes to government.
That said, there are strong regional groups/fraternity's that support the Camino and probably have some politicians ears. Rebecca/Ivar, probably have better insight on this question.
I am interested in how Spain plans to recover its tourism industry and how this might or might not affect the Camino.
I can't see how some of these ideas about tax and restriction can apply in a Schengen type free travel area, especially when related to such a small number over a wide geographical area.
...
I am trying to imagine what type of changes those might be. We are transient visitors moving through, not the most popular tourism areas. Pilgrims, for the most part, are also EU citizens. My best guess is that any changes would not impact the Camino.This is a double edged situation. Camino pilgrims may well be too small a group to target but the small size may also mean that pilgrims get forgotten and caught up negatively in changes targeted at larger groups.
This, tariff, is unlikely but if enacted would most certainly become reciprocal. I can see it being done, possibly, in the interest of climate change. This type of tax/tariff would be like a toll and paid by users."we propose that every passenger departing from an airport within the EU and every passenger arriving from outside the EU at an EU-based airport is subjected to this new carbon tax which is calculated individually for every route flown"
A quote taken from
https://ec.europa.eu/budget/mff/Lib...rbon-basedFlightTicketTax-Schratzenstalle.pdf
For the record , there are already 8 countrys ( UK , France , Italy , Austria , Germany , Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands ) with a flight tax.I can't see how some of these ideas about tax and restriction can apply in a Schengen type free travel area, especially when related to such a small number over a wide geographical area.
Caminos (300K pa). Venice alone (30mn)
In Melbourne, where I am from, locals rediscovered there own suburbs during lockdown. I did, being restricted to 1 hour of exercise a day for months. I decided to research sites of interest, heritage listed houses etc. I posted pics and information on my Facebook page and friends locally and internationally commented positively.This Guardian article from last year suggests that much of Europe has been having a conversation about tourism vs locals as a result of the Covid slowdown:
Locals rediscover streets and beaches in resorts absent of foreign tourists
Typical holiday destinations across Europe are seeing an influx of a new type of visitor: local staycationerswww.theguardian.com
We in the Netherlands already had them,This article says that cities like Barcelona and Lisbon have decided to keep the new, previously temporary, cycle ways and pedestrian paths that were created in many places during the initial Covid-19 lockdowns
Europe doubles down on cycling in post-Covid recovery plans
Success of schemes during pandemic has led many cities to plan vastly expanded bike networkswww.theguardian.com
I assume Lisbon has decided to keep its hills tooThis article says that cities like Barcelona and Lisbon have decided to keep the new, previously temporary, cycle ways and pedestrian paths that were created in many places during the initial Covid-19 lockdowns
Europe doubles down on cycling in post-Covid recovery plans
Success of schemes during pandemic has led many cities to plan vastly expanded bike networkswww.theguardian.com
Upscale, low mass, low carbon tourism requires high cost infrastructure, staff retraining, and will probably benefit a smaller portion of the host country/society. So the economic benefit is questionable and the cultural risk significant. And then the “masses” will want to experience it, so it will devolve to mass Disney-type tourism. Then the Camino will look like such a better experience (to some of us).@Doughnut NZ, i'm intrigued by the question but struggling to find a fitting response. The Camino and its Pilgrims are such a minor part of Spains tourist industry that they are unlikely to figure in any government planning. The Galician tourismo has devoted significant effort and €'s to promoting (and improving(?)) the Camino, and will no doubt continue to do so, because Galicia lacks the classic go-to's of sun, sex & sangria. On a national level? De nada.
In the UK the entire conversation is on Staycation and the opportunities that that offers to build more theme parks, holiday camps and convert more rural homes into "holiday" cottages. Still, I guess that the young people who might have stayed in their home villages will instead get a nice job in the big city dealing with the phone calls from holidaymakers wondering why the village is so dead.
I'm intrigued by the concept of taking tourism up-market. So, no back-packers, no van-campers, no Fred & Florrie on a fortnights package: just nice rich (carbon-offset paid) people willing to pay loads to stay.
De-massing of tourism? I think thats been done for us in the last 12 months. Let's wait & see if there is anything like a tourism industry again.
Threads on this board, which start from a seed, are not under control of the person who started them. The conversation flows.The conversation is starting to head in a direction that I am uninterested in.
Please don't comment about tourist vs pilgrim.
This thread is for the discussion of possible de-massing of tourism in Spain and the EU, and how that might affect the Camino.
@Lirsy @LTfit @Stroller and @Bristle Boy have the correct approach for this thread.
Thanks
There are many routes that are not so comercialized.Thanks for this informational comment.
It wasn't my intention to criticise the Camino but to understand if there was a conversation/plans to "de-mass" it for foreigners.
As repeat pilgrims, we sometimes grumble about how it has become more commercialised and over crowded. I was wondering if in Spain, people (other than those that profit from its commercialisation) grumble about the crowds and the changes that have occurred as it has become more commercialised or if the increasing numbers are always seen positively?
Your comments about how the Camino pilgrims contribute economically to small villages, sometimes with no other economic base, is very relevant. Thank you again.
I would venture that it includes at least a modicum of veterinary science. Feed management. Lambing. High solo camping skills including injury remediation etc... your comment seems a bit denigrating. 500 hours is not much time, 12 weeks for what could be a lifetime of experience, with ??? Mentor ship."The nine-month shepherding course includes nearly 500 hours of online training and one weekend a month of hands-on instruction set against the mountains and deep valleys of Cantabria, and after registration got under way earlier this year, 265 applications came pouring in. “It was a very pleasant surprise,” said Pacheco. “It’s clear that we’re meeting a need that exists in society.”
500 hours of training for sheep shepherding !!??
I often share the same opinion as you in general. Sometimes a mod intervenes to help get the thread back on track though, and it's usually a good thing.Threads on this board, which start from a seed, are not under control of the person who started them. The conversation flows.
I think that there is no equivalent between being a peregrino and "back packer type tourists". The accommodation may be similar but the mindset and intention of peregrinos is very different. I live in Andalucia in Spain and survive by running a B&B style village house. In our region after the 2008 financial collapse the construction sector has not recovered and after a year of Covid 19 the Iberico pig industry has hit the skids. This leaves Tourism as the only resource available here. Having experienced the crowds around the Alcazar in Seville and on the Camino Mozarabe the zoo of people around the Alhambra in Granada and the Mezquita in Cordoba I understand the rational behind the thinking in Barcelona and Venice but for a huge portion of the population of Spain it is not feasible to be too picky about the clients that they get.Tourism represents about 20% of Aotearoa New Zealand's exports, a significant proportion. Spain has perhaps an even greater proportion.
In ANZ now, like many other countries, there is close to nil international tourists. As a result local tourists are enjoying visiting popular parts of ANZ without huge crowds of overseas tourists.
This, in turn, has sparked a conversation within ANZ about if this is a good time for a tourism reset. Instead of hoards of backpackers and wild camping van tourists we are wondering if going more upmarket might be good for ANZ overall and might enable a greater contribution to lowering carbon outputs by reducing tourist numbers and journeys.
I am wondering if a similar conversation is going on within Spain at the moment?
If it is then this is very relevant to future Camino planning as most current pilgrims are closer to being backpackers than they are to upmarket visitors.
I am not interested in discussing the pros and cons of backpackers vs up-market tourists. Nor am I interested in your political opinions. So, possibly this question needs to be answered by people who live in Spain.
If there is currently a wider trans-EU conversation in this vein then perhaps residents of other EU countries could answer if their own country is having this conversation.
As an example, pre-Covid there were conversations in places like Barcelona about the possibility of limiting tourist numbers and certainly there were similar conversations in Venice, Italy.
What say you, Spanish and possibly EU residents?
Obviously, people whose current business model is based around large numbers of backpacker type tourists are going to have strong opinions and so, if possible, I would like to exclude those opinions. Like I said, I am more interested in if the conversation is happening than the pros and cons of an actual change.
Not denigrating at all was my intention when I asked because I shepherded 6 cows and 3 sheep in Galicia untill I was 15.I would venture that it includes at least a modicum of veterinary science. Feed management. Lambing. High solo camping skills including injury remediation etc... your comment seems a bit denigrating. 500 hours is not much time, 12 weeks for what could be a lifetime of experience, with ??? Mentor ship.
Hi Doughnut NZ,Hmmm, I am a little confused. I am not seeking information about pilgrimage during or after a pandemic.
I am interested in how Spain plans to recover its tourism industry and how this might or might not affect the Camino.
Thanks for your contribution anyway
What do you mean by upmarket? I'm not familiar with this term.Tourism represents about 20% of Aotearoa New Zealand's exports, a significant proportion. Spain has perhaps an even greater proportion.
In ANZ now, like many other countries, there is close to nil international tourists. As a result local tourists are enjoying visiting popular parts of ANZ without huge crowds of overseas tourists.
This, in turn, has sparked a conversation within ANZ about if this is a good time for a tourism reset. Instead of hoards of backpackers and wild camping van tourists we are wondering if going more upmarket might be good for ANZ overall and might enable a greater contribution to lowering carbon outputs by reducing tourist numbers and journeys.
I am wondering if a similar conversation is going on within Spain at the moment?
If it is then this is very relevant to future Camino planning as most current pilgrims are closer to being backpackers than they are to upmarket visitors.
I am not interested in discussing the pros and cons of backpackers vs up-market tourists. Nor am I interested in your political opinions. So, possibly this question needs to be answered by people who live in Spain.
If there is currently a wider trans-EU conversation in this vein then perhaps residents of other EU countries could answer if their own country is having this conversation.
As an example, pre-Covid there were conversations in places like Barcelona about the possibility of limiting tourist numbers and certainly there were similar conversations in Venice, Italy.
What say you, Spanish and possibly EU residents?
Obviously, people whose current business model is based around large numbers of backpacker type tourists are going to have strong opinions and so, if possible, I would like to exclude those opinions. Like I said, I am more interested in if the conversation is happening than the pros and cons of an actual change.
The potential other side of your tariffs/taxes is fewer tourist and less revenue for businesses that rely on tourism. Tourism fortunately or unfortunately is a prime revenue source for many countries/cities. It is also a more recent revenue stream. In the past tourist were invaders/conquerors and they were in search of anything the current residents had and they were not paying?I thinkthere is a cost that the tourists doesn't pay when traveling. This cost refer is general to the impact of traveling, pollution erosion impact on population .
If I take a cruse ship when I travel all the waist that I am creating on board including poop goes to the ocean! The tourist should pay for correcting this problem or avoid traveling until this problem is solve.
If I travel I should pay for the pollution I am creating. If I go to Venise i should pay a tax for invading the tranquility of the people staying there. Having a tax would reduce the number of people traveling and creating a better harmony for the population of Venise.
All in all i think that all traveling people should pay for the pollution they are creating and also their impact on the population and the erosion we are creating.
In other words the cost to travel to Spain should also include a daily cost for the pollution erosion and impact on cities and village that we are traveling into.
These money could be use by the village for their population well been and or infrastructure.
The country of Boutan did this exercise and if you want to enter the country you will pay 250$ US for each day you a visiting...
This example may sound extreme but each country should do a similar exercise soon.
Many countries have fees and charges (dockage fees, entry/exit fees, tourism taxes, Econ development taxes, etc.) for just these costs, not to mention sales taxes, VAT, petrol taxes, tourism licenses,etc. How it is used is the real issue, most jurisdictions accumulate it in and spend it from a general fund not accountable to the source of funds or related to the cost underlying the source. One unresolved issue is the cost to cleanup non-jurisdictional damage...offshore dumping, carbon discharge outside country boundaries, etc.I thinkthere is a cost that the tourists doesn't pay when traveling. This cost refer is general to the impact of traveling, pollution erosion impact on population .
If I take a cruse ship when I travel all the waist that I am creating on board including poop goes to the ocean! The tourist should pay for correcting this problem or avoid traveling until this problem is solve.
If I travel I should pay for the pollution I am creating. If I go to Venise i should pay a tax for invading the tranquility of the people staying there. Having a tax would reduce the number of people traveling and creating a better harmony for the population of Venise.
All in all i think that all traveling people should pay for the pollution they are creating and also their impact on the population and the erosion we are creating.
In other words the cost to travel to Spain should also include a daily cost for the pollution erosion and impact on cities and village that we are traveling into.
These money could be use by the village for their population well been and or infrastructure.
The country of Boutan did this exercise and if you want to enter the country you will pay 250$ US for each day you a visiting...
This example may sound extreme but each country should do a similar exercise soon.
The potential other side of your tariffs/taxes is fewer tourist and less revenue for businesses that rely on tourism. Tourism fortunately or unfortunately is a prime revenue source for many countries/cities. It is also a more recent revenue stream. In the past tourist were invaders/conquerors and they were in search of anything the current residents had and they were not paying?
Somewhere in between is the answer as we keep on improving our carbon footprints.
I would be interested to know the impact of the Bhutan tariff on tourism. ie:#'s of tourist, tourism $'s etc.
Ultreya,
Joe
It does indeed and all users benefit from the diversity within this community. It is, however, helpful for everyone if the discussion stays on topic.Threads on this board, which start from a seed, are not under control of the person who started them. The conversation flows.
(Your interest in something that you don't exactly describe but leave to between the lines reading may not be what other posters are interested in. You started out by bringing up something that is inherently political--governmental policies--and invited discussion of whether similar issues are being discussed in another place, and then you said you didn't want political comments. Yet governance is inherently political.)
No one has suggested anything other than supporting Spanish people.Backpackers .... sello.
Whenever things stop being blocked and people return to the Path, a lot of folks will also be supporting the local economies even more strongly by staying in pensiones, etc., instead of the group shelters when possible, just to be sensible. These pensiones, casas rurales, and small hotels are generally also locally owned.
Many, .... time?
I asked my friend who lives in Cadiz and she said Spaniards (she’s on Spanish pilgrim forum) are looking at 2022.Tourism represents about 20% of Aotearoa New Zealand's exports, a significant proportion. Spain has perhaps an even greater proportion.
In ANZ now, like many other countries, there is close to nil international tourists. As a result local tourists are enjoying visiting popular parts of ANZ without huge crowds of overseas tourists.
This, in turn, has sparked a conversation within ANZ about if this is a good time for a tourism reset. Instead of hoards of backpackers and wild camping van tourists we are wondering if going more upmarket might be good for ANZ overall and might enable a greater contribution to lowering carbon outputs by reducing tourist numbers and journeys.
I am wondering if a similar conversation is going on within Spain at the moment?
If it is then this is very relevant to future Camino planning as most current pilgrims are closer to being backpackers than they are to upmarket visitors.
I am not interested in discussing the pros and cons of backpackers vs up-market tourists. Nor am I interested in your political opinions. So, possibly this question needs to be answered by people who live in Spain.
If there is currently a wider trans-EU conversation in this vein then perhaps residents of other EU countries could answer if their own country is having this conversation.
As an example, pre-Covid there were conversations in places like Barcelona about the possibility of limiting tourist numbers and certainly there were similar conversations in Venice, Italy.
What say you, Spanish and possibly EU residents?
Obviously, people whose current business model is based around large numbers of backpacker type tourists are going to have strong opinions and so, if possible, I would like to exclude those opinions. Like I said, I am more interested in if the conversation is happening than the pros and cons of an actual change.
Is pilgrimage a form of tourism?
That said, there is a trend to the "upmarket," in that donativo and budget-priced, old-school accommodations run by municipalities and non-profits are staying closed to "give the businessmen a chance." Which is a sweet way to just eliminate the high-maintenance, low-profit-margin places when the time comes to reopen it all. I tremble to see what will happen in coming months. The well-heeled will still have their hotel-style albergues, but the scruffy backpacker types? They're expendable.
Let's hope the marketplace is not allowed to overwhelm the kindness and grace-based economy that makes the Camino unique in the world. Without the volunteers and the donativos, the Camino is just another hiking trail.
Nothing I've seen in this thread or in all the debate across the Internet suggests that "Reset" as currently formulated is a discussion of new beginning. The discussion is about reduction; limitation; constraint; control. Though no one, outside of the airline and global travel industries seems to be engaged in the discussions on tourism. Certainly absent are the Greek Taberna operators; the Mum & Pop Tiendas; the Kenyan Beach boys, or the solo operators in Hospitality anywhere whose livelihoods are dependant to one degree or another on tourism and even Pilgrimage (and I will continue to distinguish between the two).I think there is an assumption that the question is about a reduction in tourism whereas it is about a reset and how a change in one area could affect another.
I think it does in the title of the thread.Nothing I've seen in this thread or in all the debate across the Internet suggests that "Reset" as currently formulated is a discussion of new beginning. The discussion is about reduction; limitation; constraint; control. Though no one, outside of the airline and global travel industries seems to be engaged in the discussions on tourism. Certainly absent are the Greek Taberna operators; the Mum & Pop Tiendas; the Kenyan Beach boys, or the solo operators in Hospitality anywhere whose livelihoods are dependant to one degree or another on tourism and even Pilgrimage (and I will continue to distinguish between the two).
Students of Deep-Thought might enjoy this link: https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/
Cynics, anarchists and grumpy-old-pagans might prefer this one:
I thought the original question was answered some time ago. The answer was "no". At present that discussion is not occurring in Spain so far as anyone is aware. Its occurring on a global level, particularly in the context of Climate Change, wealth inequality, de-democratisation and the seeming advance of right-leaning Populist governments in much of Western Europe and elsewhere. None of which are topics suitable for discussion on this forum.I think it does in the title of the thread.
Tourism represents about 20% of Aotearoa New Zealand's exports, a significant proportion. Spain has perhaps an even greater proportion.
In ANZ now, like many other countries, there is close to nil international tourists. As a result local tourists are enjoying visiting popular parts of ANZ without huge crowds of overseas tourists.
This, in turn, has sparked a conversation within ANZ about if this is a good time for a tourism reset. Instead of hoards of backpackers and wild camping van tourists we are wondering if going more upmarket might be good for ANZ overall and might enable a greater contribution to lowering carbon outputs by reducing tourist numbers and journeys.
I am wondering if a similar conversation is going on within Spain at the moment?
If it is then this is very relevant to future Camino planning as most current pilgrims are closer to being backpackers than they are to upmarket visitors.
I am not interested in discussing the pros and cons of backpackers vs up-market tourists. Nor am I interested in your political opinions. So, possibly this question needs to be answered by people who live in Spain.
If there is currently a wider trans-EU conversation in this vein then perhaps residents of other EU countries could answer if their own country is having this conversation.
As an example, pre-Covid there were conversations in places like Barcelona about the possibility of limiting tourist numbers and certainly there were similar conversations in Venice, Italy.
What say you, Spanish and possibly EU residents?
Obviously, people whose current business model is based around large numbers of backpacker type tourists are going to have strong opinions and so, if possible, I would like to exclude th
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