- Time of past OR future Camino
- CF 2013, CF from Lourdes 2015, CP Porto 2022
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I think Spain and France have some. Check a map. Japan too, I have read... And the Middle East.Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago?
Yes, and they're centuries old.I think Spain and France have some. Check a map. Japan too, I have read... And the Middle East.
I walked the Camino Frances this year trying to figure out whether the "Road to Santiago" was the road to redemption or..........the longest bar hop in the world. Happily I found it to be both.This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage,
If you are looking for statistical information, I think the increasing long lines at the Pilgrim office give you your answer. As numbers walking have increased so have the number of Compostelas issued.This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
Honestly, I feel most of debate about what is a pilgrimage stems from the fact that some people can't accept that people walk for a different reason than their own - the "you are doing it wrong" mentality.
I know what I think - what about you?
I'm sure I've seen this post recently?This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
In "The Art of Pilgrimage" it is suggested that baseball fans going to Cooperstown are on pilgrimage. The surface, country, purpose, religion will always be different.This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
I think it is a little more complex than that. I think at first, it wasn't the Catholic cathedral that was the destination (the current cathedral wasn't there when the pilgrimages started) so much as the relics of St. James that could be found therein. It's a very nice cathedral but very nice cathedrals can be found all over Europe. What drew people was the opportunity to be right there with the relics. Relics of Christ's inner circle aren't able to be found all over Europe. Pretty much in Santiago and Rome (which is why they were the primary pilgrim destinations in Europe).I guess for me the deal breaker in the whole discussion is the fact that there is a Catholic cathedral at the end of the walk. The cathedral is the actual end goal. The finish line if you will. I know not everyone these days sets that as their goal, but I my point is that the cathedral was/is the entire reason the pilgrimage exists. That is really not in question. So let's say for argument's sake the cathedral for whatever reason suddenly disappears due to man made or natural occurrence. All that is left is the plaza. A big, flat empty concrete lot in a sense. Suddenly that is all that is left to walk to. If that happened would as many people want to still walk the Camino? Personally I think not. I think that there would be an enormous decrease in pilgrims walking to Santiago from wherever. A decrease to the point there would no longer be a pilgrimage, even if they built a brand new cathedral or let's say they decide to go secular and build a shiny new tourist center as the goal instead. You walk in, get a number and are issued a mass produced "everybody is a winner" certificate, lol. Complete with a bar or QR code, lol.
I didn't realize it at first, but by the end, it was for me, too.I do not know what other people think the Camino is (nor do I care), but for me it is foremost a religious pilgrimage.
Whew. glad to hear it, since I'm packing up my backpack again this fall.I’m answer to your question: yes always will be.
I agree. I think (hope) that anyone who just thinks of it as a European Appalachian Trail is in for a life changing treat.Yes, and they're centuries old.
I would hope nobody believes the Camino has become secular due to its increased popularity in the past ten years or so as a sort of a self help walkabout. lol
They are certainly in for a surprise. I hope that unlike the famous Francis Tapon they do not find it a disappointment. It does help to have some idea of where you are walking and why. Though the second might be more fluid and elusive.I agree. I think (hope) that anyone who just thinks of it as a European Appalachian Trail is in for a life changing treat.
So, are you saying that the numbers indicate the "lure" of a religious/spiritual destination has some instinctual attraction to the human experience? Or that people can define their own journey as a pilgrimage based on destination alone (of course, people define their own pilgrimage)?I find it interesting that there has been a huge growth in interest in walking pilgrimage routes in recent years. Perhaps more so than for walking routes with no claims to religious or spiritual significance. If we define 'pilgrimage' in fairly broad terms then it seems the demand is still there.
Jeepers, Annie, you should have just been like the rest of us and prayed for a room without snorersFor me it is a trip of healing in the way of self-discovery.
I began walking to chelate the chemicals that make me so sick.
I quickly discovered the Camino presents me with personality "challenges" about myself that also need "chelating."Every year, new challenges, sometimes in the form of other pilgrims or clients, and every year I learn more about myself. What I find out about myself is not always pretty, but the Camino gives me time to ruminate, to think things over, to try to make changes, and hopefully grow. I'm hard-headed, so sometimes I have to repeat and repeat the lesson until I learn, but I DO learn. Then just about the time I think I have it licked, a NEW challenge raises its head.
I used to say, "I prayed for patience and got a son. I begged God for patience, and I'll be danged if he didn't give me a second son. After the 3d son, I stopped praying for patience!"
This year, I prayed for faith, and got cancer.
I think God has a weird sense of humor.
What I learned this year is to be careful what I pray for!
. . . and, goodness, the weird looks I get when I recommend it. People are so afraid.My opinion: there is a need in the modern world for such a thing like a pilgrimage.
I recommend to walk the CF or any other longer pilgrimage to everyone who is asking me about my experiences.
Keep on walking!
I followed your suggestion. What a wonderful site - thank you! It is interesting to discover that academics (cultural anthropologists, no less) ask the same question. The sites in the study are all purposely modern - do they present a secular or religious experience for their pilgrims? It's too late in the evening for me to find out, but I have it bookmarked.Thank you for your question. It led me to do a search on our ubiquitous friend, google. Here is what I found. I have only just discovered it, so cannot comment. I hope to gain enlightenment. Perhaps you might, also. Now, to more mundane matters.
go to http://www.oapen.org. and then, Shrines and Pilgrimage in the Modern World. It is a free pdf.
I think that many people find places of overt religious significance very interesting. Even those with no personal faith of their own can see the cultural and historical significance and feel something of the importance which a place has had for others. Not long ago I read Guy Stagg's book "The Crossway" about a mammoth journey on foot from Canterbury to Rome, Istanbul and eventually Jerusalem. An avowed atheist who wanted to experience something of religion by participating in its rituals without personally accepting its formal beliefs and doctrines. I suspect that sort of active curiosity is not uncommon.So, are you saying that the numbers indicate the "lure" of a religious/spiritual destination has some instinctual attraction to the human experience? Or that people can define their own journey as a pilgrimage based on destination alone (of course, people define their own pilgrimage)?
It is heartening to see that people want to "do" the CdS, for whatever reason! I remember the looks on the faces of my fellow pilgrims when we finally line up at the pilgrim office to get our official Compostela.If you are looking for statistical information, I think the increasing long lines at the Pilgrim office give you your answer. As numbers walking have increased so have the number of Compostelas issued.
This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
*sigh* I think you are right.Probably more so, than ever.
Life can get so complicated these days I think many people are lost and lack meaning and purpose...
I have often wonder about the ‘religious’ vs ‘spiritual’ balance and whether or not such a large uptick in spiritual walker would still exist if everyone would receive a Compostela regardless of why they walked and did not need to declare a reason, knowing full well if they said ‘walking holiday’ that they would not get one...I think it is a little more complex than that. I think at first, it wasn't the Catholic cathedral that was the destination (the current cathedral wasn't there when the pilgrimages started) so much as the relics of St. James that could be found therein. It's a very nice cathedral but very nice cathedrals can be found all over Europe. What drew people was the opportunity to be right there with the relics. Relics of Christ's inner circle aren't able to be found all over Europe. Pretty much in Santiago and Rome (which is why they were the primary pilgrim destinations in Europe).
I was going to start with that simple statement - that it wasn't the Catholic cathedral but the relics, which presumably might have some sort of meaning for any Christians, not just Catholics, although I recognize that veneration of saints and relics is more important to some denominations than others. But then I thought, it's not so simple as that. Because the relics that I thought people were walking to were gone for centuries but the pilgrimage never quite died out. Clearly, something other than the relics was drawing people to Santiago de Compostela. My guess is that, by that point, Santiago de Compostela had gained renown as a pilgrimage destination in and of itself. One of such stature that the loss of what had created the draw wasn't enough to extinguish it.
I think at this point, the Camino is even more likely to survive such a loss. The percentage of pilgrims who do not identify as "religioius" is greater than ever, constituting the majority of pilgrims according to the released statistics. Many say that the value they experience on a Camino is found mostly in the journey rather than the destination. If they lost the current cathedral and built a brand new one, I don't think it would affect numbers much. It wouldn't be the first time. I think the Camino is here to stay. Time will tell.
I don't think that would change the "religious" vs "spiritual" balance at all, as whichever of those two one selects, one gets the same certificate. It might change the religious/spiritual vs sportive balance, though.I have often wonder about the ‘religious’ vs ‘spiritual’ balance and whether or not such a large uptick in spiritual walker would still exist if everyone would receive a Compostela regardless of why they walked and did not need to declare a reason, knowing full well if they said ‘walking holiday’ that they would not get one...
The Camino sometimes changes you in ways you have no way of anticipating. We are blessed creatures, aren't we?I don't think that would change the "religious" vs "spiritual" balance at all, as whichever of those two one selects, one gets the same certificate. It might change the religious/spiritual vs sportive balance, though.
But I think, based on what I've read here and in other forums of people's experiences, that a number of people claiming spiritual at the Pilgrims Office may not have started their caminos with spiritual intentions but found the spiritual dimension of their camino along the way.
Let's be clear: the many pilgrimage routes to Santiago are all pilgrimage routes, as are other pilgrim paths in Europe and elsewhere. These have clear goals for the pilgrim and places along the way of religious significance. When we walk these routes, we enter with the preparation and spirit of a pilgrim.. In contrast, there "hiking paths" all over Europe and the U.S., and we walk these as well. Among the longest and most rigorous is the Appalachian Trail which is only for the most dedicated, persevering and hardship-prepared. None of these are caminos. They provide unforgettable "human" experiences, just as the Camino de Santiago or other caminos in Europe provide unforgettable human experiences for those who walk them. To me, it's all good, whatever your motivation, your mindset, your preparation.This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
Our "modern world" is pretty messed (not my first word but want to be nice) up and Pilgrimages are a place where we can retreat to to reset our minds and our priorities. For me the Camino was originally a historic appreciation walk but the people that I met there and the churches, chapels, cathedrals and albergues soon ramped up the spiritual side of the walk. I think that we really would be in trouble if there were no Pilgrimage routes left to be used.This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
So the key word here is "devotion"? I never thought of that way to describe it, but I am intrigued.I believe in "pilgrimage" (the verb) - making a journey as an act of devotion.
Dude, you're trying really hard there to make the Camino sound secular. LOLI think it is a little more complex than that. I think at first, it wasn't the Catholic cathedral that was the destination (the current cathedral wasn't there when the pilgrimages started) so much as the relics of St. James that could be found therein. It's a very nice cathedral but very nice cathedrals can be found all over Europe. What drew people was the opportunity to be right there with the relics. Relics of Christ's inner circle aren't able to be found all over Europe. Pretty much in Santiago and Rome (which is why they were the primary pilgrim destinations in Europe).
I was going to start with that simple statement - that it wasn't the Catholic cathedral but the relics, which presumably might have some sort of meaning for any Christians, not just Catholics, although I recognize that veneration of saints and relics is more important to some denominations than others. But then I thought, it's not so simple as that. Because the relics that I thought people were walking to were gone for centuries but the pilgrimage never quite died out. Clearly, something other than the relics was drawing people to Santiago de Compostela. My guess is that, by that point, Santiago de Compostela had gained renown as a pilgrimage destination in and of itself. One of such stature that the loss of what had created the draw wasn't enough to extinguish it.
I think at this point, the Camino is even more likely to survive such a loss. The percentage of pilgrims who do not identify as "religioius" is greater than ever, constituting the majority of pilgrims according to the released statistics. Many say that the value they experience on a Camino is found mostly in the journey rather than the destination. If they lost the current cathedral and built a brand new one, I don't think it would affect numbers much. It wouldn't be the first time. I think the Camino is here to stay. Time will tell.
Very true.I agree. I think (hope) that anyone who just thinks of it as a European Appalachian Trail is in for a life changing treat.
I think for many the Camino is profoundly religious. For those who are religious, I think the current Cathedral could be destroyed and replaced and it wouldn't affect the value of the Camino one bit. They come to venerate the saint. Which building his relics reside in is of little religious importance.Dude, you're trying really hard there to make the Camino sound secular. LOL
You trying to convince me, or yourself?
So the key word here is "devotion"? I never thought of that way to describe it, but I am intrigued.
I was surprised to find that, in 2013, an act of regular helpfulness (I helped a pilgrim repair his hiking poles with my duct tape) earned me a designation by him as a Camino Angel ("Oh, are you the American lady who helped . . . ? We heard about you! He called you his Camino Angel!"). That's a trail name I would accept, although mightily undeserved - I had simply done what anyone would have done (I realize there are many, many Camino Angels out there, and have been over the millennium).Very true.
One thing I fear is the use of "trail names" being used on the Camino. Shudder. I can just hear an exchange between two pilgrims in passing..."buen Camino, I'm Moondance, what's your trail name? Oh, buen Camino. They call me Wild Child. Any trail magic around? Anybody got any weed?".....LOL
Dear Lord, I hope that is never a reality.
Yes, there is a place. It has become timeless since its inception. It has a place in every time period that academics will try to describe the world by.This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
For those who are religious, I think the current Cathedral could be destroyed and replaced and it wouldn't affect the value of the Camino one bit.
I think for many the Camino is profoundly religious. For those who are religious, I think the current Cathedral could be destroyed and replaced and it wouldn't affect the value of the Camino one bit. They come to venerate the saint. Which building his relics reside in is of little religious importance.
I will stand by my opinion that the religious value is in the relics, not the church that holds them. Much as I love the Cathedral in Santiago, it is by no means the most beautiful in Europe. The building is not what made Santiago the pilgrimage destination it is.A highly doubtful claim ...
A large aspect of many religious pilgrimages is the religious tourism bit -- and I think that you greatly underestimate the value that we Catholics place on our more beautiful churches !!
I will stand by my opinion that the religious value is in the relics, not the church that holds them.
364 pages ... Shrines and Pilgrimage in the Modern World - I admit that I've not read it. I wondered who the saint on the cover is. I guessed that it is a rock star. Steven Tyler from Aerosmith ... no. Apparently it is Jim Morrison. I might read the chapter on The Pilgrimage to Jim Morrison’s Grave at Père Lachaise Cemetery: The Social Construction of Sacred Space. Why is that relevant to Camino pilgrimage? I think we see this currently happening along the Camino Frances/Camino to Fisterra for example: the social construction of sacred space.I finally found time to begin to read the article I referred to way back at the beginning of this thread. Other things need to catch my full attention, and also a jigsaw puzzle has to be begun! but the article certainly offers plenty of material for consideration. I look forward to reading through the rest of it. For anyone who is interested, I think it is worth the time.
I read your signature details, and I read "The Camino is centered in humility, not in hiking. " I like that.A highly doubtful claim ...
A large aspect of many religious pilgrimages is the religious tourism bit -- and I think that you greatly underestimate the value that we Catholics place on our more beautiful churches !!
I have barely scratched the surface of the article I referenced above ( am going slowly, but enjoying it). You asked a question: Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Yes. No matter which way I might try to justify my opinion, there will be room, thankfully, for different opinions. Call it whatever you like, there is a place for it. Enjoy your 2020 Camino/Pilgrimage!This may relate to the never ending debate on what exactly makes a pilgrimage a pilgrimage, but I need to get some opinions. In our day and age, many see themselves as "spiritual" rather than "religious." Is there a place for a pilgrimage route like the Camino de Santiago? Do we just call it a walking trail? Tourist trip? I know what I think - what about you?
Considering the present state of our world without pilgrimage the locusts may come.
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