For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
I don't think a situation like this is an "either/or" (Don't touch me vs pole defense). I can well imagine a person who 1) Default mode is thinking the best of locals met on Camino; 2) Default mode in a trying situation is a feeling of helplessness due to language. I can understand that speaking a firm "Don't touch me" in the offenders own language would empower the victim to go to the next step of defense. The ability to convey her position gives her the satisfaction of knowing she's done all she could to discourage this behavior and some of us need that before resorting to violence.
My husband and I walked this route in July. On two different occasions and in two different stages, women reported men masturbating in front of them. At another time, a woman was taunted by two young teens. I recommend that females always keep another pilgrim in sight and to carry mace.Dear all,
I got this private message from a female forum member and was asked to post it on the forum. The title and the text below is hers:
-----------
I experienced two situations on the Caminho Portugues involving excessive unwanted touching by a man. Both occurred while I was hiking alone.
The first occurred between Santarem and Fatima at a station set up by a man with photos. At first the man seemed pleasant but when I resisted his hugs and kisses he did not let go until I became angry and pushed him away.
In this first situation, I was not fearful because I was quite certain I could get away. Honestly, I am not sure I could have gotten away, but he was a smaller older man and I tell myself that I would fight aggressively if necessary.
I wondered if there was a cultural disconnect. If so and if the man at this station is well-intentioned, I hope that some of the peregrinos who are more fluent in Portuguese will explain to him how unpleasant and frightening it is for a woman travelling alone to be touched. In my world, his behavior (especially when he held on after I resisted) would be considered assault.
Much later in the trip I had another incident. I was walking alone. The man was in a farm area. He grabbed both of my arms and kissed me on my cheeks repeatedly. He talked quickly and I could not understand what he was saying. When I tried to push him away, he squeezed my arms tighter. This time I was quite frightened. After several minutes of unpleasantness, he released me and I went on. I spoke to another peregrina who had walked alone that day and she had received similar treatment from this same man.
My hope is that this behavior from these two men will stop if others explain to them that they should not touch any peregrinos without permission and especially no touching of a peregrina travelling alone.
In the meantime, my recommendation to other peregrinas is to be very defensive around men you encounter on the path. Know how to say "do not touch" in Portuguese and Spanish and have your sticks out and ready to use if necessary.
After these two incidents, I decided that another such incident would not occur to me without a fight.
Congratulations! I’ve long wanted to try that technique the next time I’m approached at an intersection by one of those ‘squeegie’ guys planning to clean my windshield.Hello all,
Out walking back to the albergue in Santarem on an empty street with a fellow female pilgrim, we were being followed by a man whom appeared to be a bit threatening...I am a good 30 years older than the young German girl I was with and have traveled alone for many years.
The method I have used in the past and chose to use at this particular time was ...I turned and faced him and proceeded to scream and wave my arms like a totally crazy person, which went on for a good 5 minutes before he realized I was too nuts to deal with and walked away looking puzzled.
I have used my crazy routine for many years now, it works for me....best wishes for all you women
Stay Strong Stand Tall
Best wishes !
Eliza
People have asked in other threads if mace is legal in Spain.At another time, a woman was taunted by two young teens. I recommend that females always keep another pilgrim in sight and to carry mace.
Dear all,
I got this private message from a female forum member and was asked to post it on the forum. The title and the text below is hers:
-----------
I experienced two situations on the Caminho Portugues involving excessive unwanted touching by a man. Both occurred while I was hiking alone.
The first occurred between Santarem and Fatima at a station set up by a man with photos. At first the man seemed pleasant but when I resisted his hugs and kisses he did not let go until I became angry and pushed him away.
In this first situation, I was not fearful because I was quite certain I could get away. Honestly, I am not sure I could have gotten away, but he was a smaller older man and I tell myself that I would fight aggressively if necessary.
I wondered if there was a cultural disconnect. If so and if the man at this station is well-intentioned, I hope that some of the peregrinos who are more fluent in Portuguese will explain to him how unpleasant and frightening it is for a woman travelling alone to be touched. In my world, his behavior (especially when he held on after I resisted) would be considered assault.
Much later in the trip I had another incident. I was walking alone. The man was in a farm area. He grabbed both of my arms and kissed me on my cheeks repeatedly. He talked quickly and I could not understand what he was saying. When I tried to push him away, he squeezed my arms tighter. This time I was quite frightened. After several minutes of unpleasantness, he released me and I went on. I spoke to another peregrina who had walked alone that day and she had received similar treatment from this same man.
My hope is that this behavior from these two men will stop if others explain to them that they should not touch any peregrinos without permission and especially no touching of a peregrina travelling alone.
In the meantime, my recommendation to other peregrinas is to be very defensive around men you encounter on the path. Know how to say "do not touch" in Portuguese and Spanish and have your sticks out and ready to use if necessary.
After these two incidents, I decided that another such incident would not occur to me without a fight.
I am very sorry for all of this.
The Portuguese Associations are working with the Portuguese Government to find a way to mitigate the problem, it is impossible to completely eliminate it.
A very loud NO or STOP is totally understood by anyone in Portugal and Spain, no need to go in more intelectual conversations. The louder the better. A whistle is a great help, lots of backpacks have one on the chest strap. If not, buy one. Again, the louder the better. Please, ALWAYS report the incident, to the Police or at least to the person on the Albergue or Hotel or wherever you will stay, even if there where no real danger, exhibitionists are to be taken care by the authorities too.
I need to know (really need) where was the second incident. "Much later in the trip I had another incident. I was walking alone. The man was in a farm area. He grabbed both of my arms and kissed me on my cheeks repeatedly."
Portugal? Spain? Near what town? It is very important to have those informations so I can pass them up.
I know it is not easy, but please try to remember (and report) everything. Where? How old he looked like? His clothes? Hair? Was he walking, on bike, on a car? Etc etc etc, everything can be important, sometimes it's a small detail that provide the clue about him. Try to write everything, the sooner the better. I know this is easy to say here, but terrible to do. You will be helping other women.
Bom Caminho
I believe (95% sure) the second incident occurred somewhere between Ponte de Lima and Fontoura, although there is a small possibility that it occurred in the day or two prior.
When Denise Thiem was killed...her family's persistence resulted in articles in major news outlets such as The NY Times. These articles IMO put pressure on the Govt of Spain to find the perp. It was not just a .o21 percent of the tourists anymore -those on the Camino pilgrim problem! Do you not think that if the major outlets started running articles abt men exposing themselves "legally" and masterbating in front of women on the Camino that it would not have an impact on the govt??
The popularity of the Camino routes has sadly attracted the bottom dwellers of humanity, also.
30?! I'm not at totally naive, but that is a shocking number. And Astorga cannot be the only place...by inference, there must be many others. The mind boggles.among about thirty other men who were known to habitually harass peregrinas in the Astorga area
I will be traveling with my husband and a group of 4 other women. I will remind them we all need to use the buddy system. I am wondering the most effective words for: "NO!", "don't touch me", "STOP!" "No thank you",
On the other side of the spectrum, what is the best reply to Bom Caminho from some one not walking (a resident, shop keeper etc). "Please" and "thank you" and "you are welcome" go a long ways in civil situations and I want to be civil!
Good day!
I am a week returned from my Portuguese Camino. It was an experience I am still now processing, but need to share that towards the end of my walk on the Portuguese side, up in the hills, there was an older man with a cow and some sheep - who was talking to me in Portuguese and did insist on kissing me on both cheeks. I did not feel threatened, but a younger woman also traveling alone did feel very uncomfortable when she came upon the same man that day. Unfortunately I did not mark down where this happened in my journal - but I would say to be aware and alert on the rural hills. I know I read a thread on this subject before, most likely the same man.
Bom Caminho!
You may be relieved to know that the Spanish authorities identified the suspect almost immediately - among about thirty other men who were known to habitually harass peregrinas in the Astorga area - but for legal and other reasons chose not to reveal the fact that they had done so. The NYT was of little or no relevance to the developments in this case.
This is M.J. I suspect that this is the same man who grabbed and kissed me, and another woman walking alone.Good day!
I am a week returned from my Portuguese Camino. It was an experience I am still now processing, but need to share that towards the end of my walk on the Portuguese side, up in the hills, there was an older man with a cow and some sheep - who was talking to me in Portuguese and did insist on kissing me on both cheeks. I did not feel threatened, but a younger woman also traveling alone did feel very uncomfortable when she came upon the same man that day. Unfortunately I did not mark down where this happened in my journal - but I would say to be aware and alert on the rural hills. I know I read a thread on this subject before, most likely the same man.
Bom Caminho!
M.J. continuing -- as noted above, the man who grabbed and kissed me and another woman in October was between Ponte de Lima and Fontoura (I think, as noted above in a prior post). Does that make sense in terms of your situation?Good day!
I am a week returned from my Portuguese Camino. It was an experience I am still now processing, but need to share that towards the end of my walk on the Portuguese side, up in the hills, there was an older man with a cow and some sheep - who was talking to me in Portuguese and did insist on kissing me on both cheeks. I did not feel threatened, but a younger woman also traveling alone did feel very uncomfortable when she came upon the same man that day. Unfortunately I did not mark down where this happened in my journal - but I would say to be aware and alert on the rural hills. I know I read a thread on this subject before, most likely the same man.
Bom Caminho!
This is M.J. I suspect that this is the same man who grabbed and kissed me, and another woman walking alone.
M.J. continuing -- as noted above, the man who grabbed and kissed me and another woman in October was between Ponte de Lima and Fontoura (I think, as noted above in a prior post). Does that make sense in terms of your situation?
I hope another woman can pinpoint the exact location and report it. Whether this is culturally acceptable in Portugal or not, it is frightening and discouraging to peregrinas (especially those of us who may walk through his area alone). If the authorities speak to the man and he is not a creep, I assume he will stop. Thanks for posting your experience.
So sorry to hear of this frightening encounter. Glad you are ok.I believe I may have encountered this same man. I was en route from Ponte de Lima to Rubiaes. I was walking alone. He was an older man, maybe 60ish. He started talking to me and I told him I didn't speak Portuguese (all my responses were in Portuguese). He followed me, peppering me with questions. I understood that he asked if I was German and I replied that I was American. He told me I was very beautiful. I tersely said thank you, then he grabbed onto both my arms and said he just wanted to kiss me, pulling me towards him and trying to get his face to mine. Thankfully, I had seen this thread before I left and pulled away yelling "Nao me toca!" and wielded my one pole towards him. That got him to let get go of me and I walked away as quickly as I could in rain, with my pack on. Certainly nothing horrible, but it really shook me. I had probably 6 inches and 30 pounds on him, but having my personal space invaded and being grabbed on, whilst all alone, scared me. This was my only bad encounter along The Way. Thankfully, about five minutes later, I passed a shed where two men were waiting out the rain. They greeted me and commented I was shaking and was I ok? I told them what had happened and they invited me into the shelter, offered me a seat and some water (even though I had my own). The worst and the best, I guess! Regardless, I think this guy's MO is to creep on women walking alone....
...then he grabbed onto both my arms and said he just wanted to kiss me, pulling me towards him and trying to get his face to mine. ... Certainly nothing horrible, but it really shook me.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?