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@SYates, permethrin is an insectide and acaricide as well as being an insect repellent. It is a pretty indiscriminate poison, and care needs to be taken in its use. The safety precautions and waste disposal would, perhaps, be more difficult to achieve on the camino. As @Pilgrim-S-414 says, there was an active discussion on this some time ago on the forum.I have been recently on the Camino Frances and have not been bitten myself but saw the occasional pilgrim with bites. Also bedbugs worldwide become more and more resistant to Permethrin, which is a repellent, not an insecticide btw. Far more important, in my opinion, is the complete cleaning and de-bedbugging of ALL your gear when you come home, as bed bugs / their could hide pretty much everywhere in it. Buen Camino sin chinches, SY
That is backward; it is an insecticide, not a repellent. The implication is that they will avoid it because they sense it is lethal. That probably is not true, but it will kill the bugs that may hitch a ride in your pack. DEET, effective for lots of insects, does not repel bed bugs. Once dry, permethrin is safe for humans (EPA opinion). In Canada you can dip your horse in it, but human uses have not been approved. Thus, you can buy it in a horse supply store, but not a sporting goods store. Every tourist office in France sells it.Permethrin, which is a repellent, not an insecticide
@falcon269, I suspect that most insecticides don't work well or at all on arachnids, including bed-bugs and mites. Permethrin is an acaricide as well as an insecticide, and works well on both, although there is some evidence in the public domain of permethrin resistance growing in some bed-bug populations.That is backward; it is an insecticide, not a repellent. The implication is that they will avoid it because they sense it is lethal. That probably is not true, but it will kill the bugs that may hitch a ride in your pack. DEET, effective for lots of insects, does not repel bed bugs. Once dry, permethrin is safe for humans (EPA opinion). In Canada you can dip your horse in it, but human uses have not been approved. Thus, you can buy it in a horse supply store, but not a sporting goods store. Every tourist office in France sells it.
Reading the MSDS, this product is a pesticide, rather than for a 'human use' like a head lice shampoo. The instructions are clear that any garments or bedding treated should be allowed to dry before use. Once dry, permethrin is considered safe for humans, domestic pets etc. Just don't have cats nearby when applying the product - it is quite dangerous for them when still in solution.Canada does seem to permit permethrin products: http://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001ANQVYU/?tag=santiagodec0b-20
Hi,
I am thinking of bringing a permethrin sprayed fitted sheet on the camino to put over the mattresses in the albergue's. Has anyone tried this?? Does a regular fitted sheet from the u.s. fit a european twin mattress?? Maybe an extra long twin?? Is this a good or bad idea?? Thanks for the help. Jackie
For the person that noted the DDT problem - yes it is dangerous. However, I recently read an article that speculated more people have died from malaria than would have died from exposure to DDT after it was banned. Is the article accurate? Who knows. But the subject is worth some discussion by the experts in this area.
Bed bugs live in the wall and bed frame, not the blankets! The blankets may not be really clean, but they won't be the source of the bed bugs!I attribute this to using albergue blankets
I believe DDT did indeed get a bad rap and banning it cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives in Africa where it was being used to combat malaria carrying mosquitos.Following the bend in the topic line from permethrin to DDT, DDT probably got a bad rap:
http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C06/C06Links/www.altgreen.com.au/Chemicals/ddt.html
Bed bugs live in the wall and bed frame, not the blankets! The blankets may not be really clean, but they won't be the source of the bed bugs!
I do not. Pillows are usually square or long cylinders. I made my own nylon sleep sack with a pouch for the pillow. However, the mattress are variable. I am 6' tall, and often my feet and head simultaneously hit the rails at the end of the bed. Other mattresses were longer. With the XL you probably cover all the variations, and would only need to tuck in extra material on the short mattresses.Do you know if a standard US twin will fit on the albergue mattress or a twin xl from the U.S.? Thanks.
I make quilts for a living, so am pretty good at judging bed sizes. I never saw an XL mattress all the way across from SJPDP. I too am planning on making a very light weight fittted bottom sheet - I'll just put lots of elastic in the corners and make it a bit deeper to make it work hopefully 90% of the time. I was thinking of spraying the edges with permethrin, not necessarily where my body will lay, as a compromise.Do you know if a standard US twin will fit on the albergue mattress or a twin xl from the U.S.? Thanks.
That is hard to do, and probably would be ineffective. I have had bed bugs drop on me from the top bunk. Once dry, permethrin is not toxic to humans. You may have to take that on faith!spraying the edges with permethrin
thats a great idea of only treating the edges. I want to use the sheet so I don't have to treat my sleeping bag. What material are you planing of using?? Thanks, JackieI make quilts for a living, so am pretty good at judging bed sizes. I never saw an XL mattress all the way across from SJPDP. I too am planning on making a very light weight fittted bottom sheet - I'll just put lots of elastic in the corners and make it a bit deeper to make it work hopefully 90% of the time. I was thinking of spraying the edges with permethrin, not necessarily where my body will lay, as a compromise.
And what happens with it when you get caught in the rain, or wash your clothes? Still no damaging?That is hard to do, and probably would be ineffective. I have had bed bugs drop on me from the top bunk. Once dry, permethrin is not toxic to humans. You may have to take that on faith!
Most treatments last for about six washings. I protect my sleep sack from the rain, so it has never gotten wet. If it were wet, I would treat it the same way I do for the original application, and avoid touching it until it is dry. Here are the safety instructions:And what happens with it when you get caught in the rain, or wash your clothes? Still no damaging?
That's a good question. The MSDS states that there are no environmental precautions required for accidental release under normal use conditions. I would think that this would apply to laundry or rain soaked clothing.And what happens with it when you get caught in the rain, or wash your clothes? Still no damaging?
I'm not sure - I have a bolt of really thin gingham material I might use, or a very light weight muslin or batiste.. I'm not a fan of synthetic fabrics to sleep in, so am stuck a bit. I will prewash some stuff and try it out here before committing to it. I also need to do more reading on permethrin, too, as all I know about it is what I read on this forum (which is actually quite a bit). Does it wash off when laundered? And I guess the bed bugs dropping from above is finally a good reason to pick a top bunk!thats a great idea of only treating the edges. I want to use the sheet so I don't have to treat my sleeping bag. What material are you planing of using?? Thanks, Jackie
I brought a bedbugsheet on the VDLP some years ago, but ended up using it as a top layer. Good agaist the mosquitos during the night. Since then I bought another one and have sewn the two together to a "bag" that I put outside my silklinenbag (also treated with permethrin). Now it functions much better.Hi,
I am thinking of bringing a permethrin sprayed fitted sheet on the camino to put over the mattresses in the albergue's. Has anyone tried this?? Does a regular fitted sheet from the u.s. fit a european twin mattress?? Maybe an extra long twin?? Is this a good or bad idea?? Thanks for the help. Jackie
Hi Jackie - I used a single fitted sheet with permethrin in 2012 - worked really well and no hassle.It fitted every mattress,didn't weigh much and worked.There were several occasions when pilgrims around me were bitten by bedbugs and I wasn't - it was worth taking.
kiwiDave
I suspect that the confusion about whether permethrin is allowed in Canada relates to whether manufacturers are allowed to CLAIM effectiveness in deterring bedbugs.
Hi Jackie - not sure what a standard twin size sheet is(I'm a male).Bearing in mind I'm in Brisbane Australia I bought a standard single fitted sheet - it fits a standard single size mattress - seemed to fit all the bunk mattresses I came across - DaveHi Jackie - I used a single fitted sheet with permethrin in 2012 - worked really well and no hassle.It fitted every mattress,didn't weigh much and worked.There were several occasions when pilgrims around me were bitten by bedbugs and I wasn't - it was worth taking.
kiwiDave
As a fellow Canadian I am glad that permetherin sprayed items can not be sold in Canada. That should be a warning to the wise. I use an effective natural product which feels great on your skin, smells good and repels bed bugs. It is called Tea Tree Oil and is readily available in health shops. As a bonus it will take the itch out of insect bites and will treat the foot fungus that you may pick up in the albergue showers. It is the product that was recommended in the 'pharmacia' in Spain.My appologies for the 2 empty responses: working with a Mini Ipad key board is not ideal.
It is illegal in Canada to sell items sprayed with permetherin. I have a sleeping bag liner bought in the US that is supposed to be effective for 25 washes. Since I only use on the Camino, it should be good for 25 Caminos ;0) An alternative to permetherin is a liner that is sold to cover the mattress made of a plasticky material that resembles a window screen. Problem with it is that it it not much larger than the mattress and moves around during the night, so you end up with a good part of the matress in contact with your sleeping bag of liner. Will problably leave it behind this year.
As for the light material Ahhhs is refering to, it's muslin.
Actually, the Canadian military uses permethrin treated clothing.As a fellow Canadian I am glad that permetherin sprayed items can not be sold in Canada.
Doesn't sound like the sort of toxin that you would want to wrap yourself up in at night. Science only says that it is safe for humans until evidence indicates that it is unsafe. I like to err on the side of caution.Actually, the Canadian military uses permethrin treated clothing.
Permethrin is registered for use in Canada in over 230
products, including technical grade active ingredient and
formulated pesticides (PMRA 2004). Trade and other names
used for permethrin-based pesticides include, but are not
limited to, Ambush, Atroban, Dragnet, Ectiban, Evercide,
Permanone, Pounce, Pramex and Raid Fumigator. The
various permethrin-based pesticides registered in Canada are
used for a wide variety of purposes including: general
insecticide products for domestic use; flea and tick control
on household pets; insect control on agricultural crops,
orchards, nurseries and in greenhouses; biting insect control
in livestock (e.g., treated ear tags); as a perimeter application
for control of adult mosquitoes around buildings; application
to military clothing and mosquito netting; and others.
Permethrin is also registered for restricted use on
commercial woodlots (PMRA 2004).
I haven't looked into the science. It was recommended by a chemistThere is no scientific study I know of that shows that Tea Tree Oil repels, much less kills, bed bugs. It might have some anti-allergic reaction properties in some cases, but no more. Buen Camino sin chinches, SY
I haven't looked into what science has been done on Tea Tree Oil. It was recommended by a chemist (pharmacist in Canada) and I can verify that it has been effective for the uses that I have stated for myself and others. There is also a clear understanding amongst herbalists that it is effective for these things.There is no scientific study I know of that shows that Tea Tree Oil repels, much less kills, bed bugs. It might have some anti-allergic reaction properties in some cases, but no more. Buen Camino sin chinches, SY
I think I will stick with products and compounds whose use and safety precautions have been established using scientific methods. Anecdotal evidence and a so called 'clear understanding' are no substitute for reputable, well formulated and repeatable scientific testing.I haven't looked into what science has been done on Tea Tree Oil. It was recommended by a chemist (pharmacist in Canada) and I can verify that it has been effective for the uses that I have stated for myself and others. There is also a clear understanding amongst herbalists that it is effective for these things.
This on PyrethrinTea tree oil is POSSIBLY SAFE for most people when put on the skin, but it can cause skin irritation and swelling. In people with acne, it can sometimes cause skin dryness, itching, stinging, burning, and redness.
Applying products to the skin that contain tea tree oil along with lavender oil might not be safe for young boys who have not yet reached puberty. These products might have hormone effects that could disrupt the normal hormones in a boy’s body. In some cases, this has resulted in boys developing abnormal breast growth called gynecomastia. The safety of these products when used by young girls is not known.
Tea tree oil is LIKELY UNSAFE when taken by mouth. Don’t take tea tree oil by mouth. As a general rule never take undiluted essential oils by mouth due to the possibility of serious side effects. Taking tree tea oil by mouth has caused confusion, inability to walk, unsteadiness, rash, and coma.
Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Tea tree oil is POSSIBLY SAFE when applied to the skin. However, it is LIKELY UNSAFE if taken by mouth. Ingestion of tea tree oil can be toxic.
Permethrin (also known as Pyrethrin) is not permitted for use on clothing, bedding, tents etc in Canada.Actually, the Canadian military uses permethrin treated clothing.
Permethrin is registered for use in Canada in over 230
products, including technical grade active ingredient and
formulated pesticides (PMRA 2004). Trade and other names
used for permethrin-based pesticides include, but are not
limited to, Ambush, Atroban, Dragnet, Ectiban, Evercide,
Permanone, Pounce, Pramex and Raid Fumigator. The
various permethrin-based pesticides registered in Canada are
used for a wide variety of purposes including: general
insecticide products for domestic use; flea and tick control
on household pets; insect control on agricultural crops,
orchards, nurseries and in greenhouses; biting insect control
in livestock (e.g., treated ear tags); as a perimeter application
for control of adult mosquitoes around buildings; application
to military clothing and mosquito netting; and others.
Permethrin is also registered for restricted use on
commercial woodlots (PMRA 2004).
No!! These are two different compounds. Pyrethrin is a plant extract, permethrin is a synthetic compound.Permethrin (also known as Pyrethrin)
I stand corrected. Permethrin is a pyrethroid.No!! These are two different compounds. Pyrethrin is a plant extract, permethrin is a synthetic compound.
This on Pyrethrin
Side Effects
Pyrethroids:
Inhalation: coughing, wheezing, shortness of breath, runny or stuffy nose, chest pain, or difficulty breathing.
Skin contact: rash, itching, or blisters.
Long term effects: disrupts the endocrine system by mimicking the female hormone, estrogen, thus causing excessive estrogen levels in females. In human males, its estrogenizing (feminizing) effects include lowered sperm counts. In both, it can lead to the abnormal growth of breast tissue, leading to development of breasts in males and cancerous breast tissue in both male and females.
Neurotoxic effects include: tremors, incoordination, elevated body temperature, increased aggressive behavior, and disruption of learning. Laboratory tests suggest that permethrin is more acutely toxic to children than to adults.
Other: A known carcinogen. There is evidence that pyrethroids harm the thyroid gland.Causes chromosomal damage in hamsters and mice; deformities in amphibians; blood abnormalities in birds.
I've used this bed bug sheet , more of a net actually, and sprayed my sleeping bag with Permetherin prior to departure.
Sheet dimensions are 200 x 100cm and that worked fine on albergue mattresses.
Had no problems with bed bugs in April (although a few pilgrims were bitten) nor with any health related side-effects.
I seem to recall a lengthy debate on that issue but can't find that forum thread.
Both DEET and some newly developed products appear to show good levels of repellency against bedbugs. See here for a summary report. The difficulty with DEET is that regular reapplication is required to maintain its effect, it has an unpleasant odour and is highly corrosive to certain plastics, something I have experience personally when a tube of DEET based repellent leaked in my backpack.Permethrin does NOT repel bedbugs. Actually, nothing does.
Have you tried Amazon.com? I have one of these and find it moves a lot during the night as there is no way to secure it and it is a bit plastiky. I think I will try to put elastics in the corners for my next walk.Sadly this is only shipped within the UK. Has anyone bought one elsewhere that would ship to Australia?
I'd make one, but my sewing skills are fairly ordinary
jackie, hi so how would you spray the fitted sheet? or would you soak it..can you give me me some suggestions. thanks.Hi,
I am thinking of bringing a permethrin sprayed fitted sheet on the camino to put over the mattresses in the albergue's. Has anyone tried this?? Does a regular fitted sheet from the u.s. fit a european twin mattress?? Maybe an extra long twin?? Is this a good or bad idea?? Thanks for the help. Jackie
Someone (sorry I don't remember which helpful person) suggested making a sprayed "sheet" out of a lightweight bridal veil type of fabric that folds up very small and can be stored in a sandwich bag. That seems a lot lighter and easier than a fitted sheet.
I sprayed it with permethrin from Canadian Tire.
I'm not sure which product I used, but it wasn't battery powered.
Personally, I've stopped pretreating and have gone to isolating my pack at night (big dry bag), isolating my sleeping bag and clothes (medium dry bag), and hoping for the best. I still get occasional bites, likely bedbugs, but I reduce the risk of carrying them.
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