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Next May, I will be walking with 2 shells.
Thank you @peregrina2000 for posting this.We moderators have been discussing how to deal with the inevitable interest that the arrest in this case will generate. Discussions about the legal process and its many facets are likely to be things people will want to talk about. We are starting a new thread for people to share information on new developments.
We ask that out of respect for Denise's memory, the suffering of her family, and the sensibilities of forum members, please refrain from posting details that are graphic or likely to be disturbing to the average reader. Thanks.
Wonderful, Americanperigrino! Just discovered I had two shells last week - I guess now I know why I have these two -- I was sure I only had one. Will be wearing both beginning 8 Oct.Next May, I will be walking with 2 shells.
Agree - we feel that something should be done to remember Denise - not just shells but perhaps something more permanent and significant to remember her and all peregrinos who haveWhile I appreciate that Forum members are free to remember Denise, and pay tribute to her, in a manner that works for them individually, I personally, would be more comfortable waiting a while before proceeding too far, and too fast, with any plans to honour her memory. Perhaps we might give her family and loved ones time to grieve and, at some point in the future when, hopefully, their wounds have healed a bit, they might appreciate the opportunity to have some input in how her fellow pilgrims, and the Camino, might remember her.
I'll be there! A friend will be walking on the 8th with me (first timerA great idea. Be sure to write Denise's name on it.
If anyone else from Seattle needs a 2nd shell....let me know and I will get you one.
I will be at the 2nd Sunday walk tomorrow, 9/13 at the Ballard locks and happy to provide one if you ask..
Ed
I would like to send a sympathy card to the family of Denise. Is there somewhere in Santiago that I could send it in order that it could be forewarded to her family. I just feel that being of "the old school" that getting a card or a letter of condolence is more personal than reading tributes online. Just a thought.Thank you @peregrina2000 for posting this.
In another post, about another topic, I mentioned that we (peregrinos) never walk alone. That, indeed, on the Camino, more than anywhere else, I am my brothers keeper. I feel a connection, a closeness, to every single Peregrino, those walking, those who have walked, and those who are planning to walk. From my experience I know many feel the same. So, when I stated I will be carrying a second shell, I'm doing so for this fellow Peregrino that I never met, but, who is my sister and who will always be a part of the Camino De Santiago now. Maybe someone with a little more eloquence than I can start a separate post for this idea. I'm thinking a post of love from fellow Peregrinos who will be walking carrying this shell, without any of the hard facts of the 'case'. Something that her family, someday, might read.
A new thread has been started to provide information on carrying a second shell in Denise's memory. (original suggestion by Americanperegrin)
Please continue any discussion or question on this subject in that thread.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/memorial-shells-for-denise.36391/
@grayland : I find it so despicable that the "dirtbag suspect," as you termed him, was disguising himself as a pilgrim and enjoying a coffee drink when he was apprehended. He is a wolf among lambs.A new thread has been started to provide information on carrying a second shell in Denise's memory. (original suggestion by Americanperegrin)
Please continue any discussion or question on this subject in that thread so we can continue this thread with discussion and news of the arrest of the dirt bag suspect.
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/memorial-shells-for-denise.36391/
I am wondering whether this is the same guy who has been tasering pilgrims to rob them or if we still have to be wary of that (unknown) person. Also I thought it was an Italian gentleman she was walking with? Good news that he has been caught though. Let's hope it is the right one and he gets what he deserves.
@Rebekah Scott ,
@grayland : I find it so despicable that the "dirtbag suspect," as you termed him, was disguising himself as a pilgrim and enjoying a coffee drink when he was apprehended. He is a wolf among lambs.
I am wondering whether this is the same guy who has been tasering pilgrims to rob them or if we still have to be wary of that (unknown) person. Also I thought it was an Italian gentleman she was walking with? Good news that he has been caught though. Let's hope it is the right one and he gets what he deserves.
I'm just curious if this guy is the same "Miguel" they have been interviewing from the beginning? The Irish pilgrim that was walking with her?
Seems to me the Spanish police have done an excellent job of this - taking care they have the right person.
I don't know, you're all freaking me out... I read the newspapers and it bears no resemblance to what I am reading here...
Please get a grip, read the Spanish newspapers or their translation....
You are correct, CarriePhoto.@domigee I'm confused. What are you freaking out about? Get a grip about what?
I'm just trying to clarify so people don't think the pilgrim she was walking and went to mass with - the Italian man - was the person arrested.
I don't know, you're all freaking me out... I read the newspapers and it bears no resemblance to what I am reading here...
Please get a grip, read the Spanish newspapers or their translation....
Please, please to the moderators can you close this discussion down.
You are correct, CarriePhoto.
* The Italian man, an author, was completely cleared
Please, please to the moderators can you close this discussion down.
It always works better if you can read in the original language, as some of the idioms and figures of speech don't translate well.Originally I was reading the Spanish reports which seemed to provide clarity, however when I did reach the American reports they did seem less clear and more unnerving.
Deb you are going to have a very good Camino. You are getting close & with all the prep you have done I am hoping you share your experience on your return.It always works better if you can read in the original language, as some of the idioms and figures of speech don't translate well.
I've had good success with reading in Spanish, then using google translate to compare and make sure I understand.
Hi, biarritzdon and others with similar opinions,
(and by the way I am speaking just for myself here),
I understand that some people do not want to engage in these discussions and expressions of anger, grief, sorrow, and that others do not want to read any more details about the actual case. But there are many who do, and though I'm by no means a counselor or a psychologist, I think that having a place to express feelings and to get cyber-support is a good thing for a lot of people.
If you don't want to read any more about this tragedy, if you don't want to offer support to those who are having a hard time with it, if you don't want to discuss ways to honor Denise's memory, etc etc, my advice would be not to open the well-marked threads. I am not saying that critically, but I think the forum is many different things to different people, and just like I may not open every post about hiking poles or where to get a bus to Leon, others may not want to open these.
The forum has traditionally been a very large tent where people and pilgrims of all stripes have been able to ask and answer questions and express their opinions, usually in a very non-threatening way. It's my opinion that now is a time for that tradition to continue, within the same respectful and sensitive bounds. Buen camino, Laurie
False yellow arrows may have played a role. That is a bit disconcerting, since they are important for virtually all pilgrims.
http://www.thelocal.es/20150914/suspect-directed-pilgrims-to-his-house-with-fake-camino-signs
A few decades ago, there were no arrows! Rely on yourself, not the guys with the yellow paint.It would be good if the signage there was improved
Well yes, and we did.A few decades ago, there were no arrows! Rely on yourself, not the guys with the yellow paint.
The Diario de León is now reporting that the accused has once again changed his plea. At his morning appearance, he entered a plea of not guilty. He then requested another hearing (during the evening, Spain time), at which he has now once again confessed.
The paper also reports that DNA analysis confirms that the remains are of Denise Thiem.
One last update for today. The judge has ordered that the accused undergo tests to determine whether he is mentally competent to understand the consequences of what he says he has done, the charges against him, etc. The term in Spanish is "imputabilidad" and I believe it is something akin to a determination in the US of whether someone is fit to stand trial (if I am wrong about that, I hope that someone will correct me). The test will delay his transfer to the provincial prison in Mansilla de las Mulas, which is where he otherwise would have been transferred today.
Thank you for this, @falcon269. If I read this right, the Mass will be this Wednesday, Sep. 16th at 19.30 hrs. which I calculate to be 7:30 p.m. in Spain, if anyone would like to work out what time that is in their part of the world, to be there in spirit for Denise and her family while Mass is being said. If I've got this wrong, please someone correct me.A mass at the Cathedral Wednesday for Denise:
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...-thiem/idEdicion-2015-09-12/idNoticia-952374/
Thank you for this, @falcon269. If I read this right, the Mass will be this Wednesday, Sep. 16th at 19.30 hrs. which I calculate to be 7:30 p.m. in Spain, if anyone would like to work out what time that is in their part of the world, to be there in spirit for Denise and her family while Mass is being said. If I've got this wrong, please someone correct me.
Am I correct that that's 5:30 am Thursday, Sep. 17th for you? I do like to keep these things straight in my head. That would be 10:30 am Wednesday here on the west coast of Canada. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.Yes, that's the time they're giving, it's the evening pilgrim's mass. That's 5.30am here in NZ. I plan to sit quietly here and think of Denise and those who are able to be there in person.
That would be wonderful if some of Denise's family could be there for the Mass; it would be so much more meaningful. This is all so terribly sad.Speaking of which - at the end of the English language article to which @falcon269 provided a link above (http://www.thelocal.es/20150914/suspect-directed-pilgrims-to-his-house-with-fake-camino-signs) it actually says that "The family of Thiem, who lived in Phoenix, Arizona will arrive in Spain on Tuesday and attend a funeral mass for the victim in the cathedral of Santiago de Compestela, the final destination of those walking the pilgrimage route." Not sure if this report is correct, but if it is - wow. I hope that some of the family really are able to be there, and that they will find some small comfort from it.
As late as Monday afternoon, there appears to be confusion about whether the family of Denise has been officially contacted by Spanish authorities confirming that the remains are in fact the body of Denise.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ino-de-santiago-denise-thiem-family/72269246/
If this is correct, then it very possible then that the family has not left Arizona.
Am I correct that that's 5:30 am Thursday, Sep. 17th for you?
Based on what I have read in the Spanish press, the official confirmation that the remains found were indeed those of Denise was issued only after 10 pm Spanish time today, which would have been 1 pm in Arizona. That might explain the lag.
I agree with a lot of what you say, Anemone, and the hard question here is whether to just block on the forum all references to news about the how the criminal process is proceeding or not. Some members have urged that approach in PMs. I think that we (the moderators) are still of the opinion that providing access to the latest news reports, especially for those who don't speak Spanish, is on balance positive. And we have decided to use this thread to provide information for those who want factual updates. But maybe we should reconsider. The other alternative is to block all posts dealing with the case going forward and that doesn't seem satisfactory either. It is a conundrum and I think people are conflicted.
The mass is 7:30 pm the regular evening pilgrims mass. BTW, Denise has been mentioned and prayed for in each mass here in Santiago....as l would think in most churches on the Camino. Sometimes she is especially mentioned.Am I correct that that's 5:30 am Thursday, Sep. 17th for you? I do like to keep these things straight in my head. That would be 10:30 am Wednesday here on the west coast of Canada. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
That would be wonderful if some of Denise's family could be there for the Mass; it would be so much more meaningful. This is all so terribly sad.
A mass at the Cathedral Wednesday for Denise:
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...-thiem/idEdicion-2015-09-12/idNoticia-952374/
Thank you, Falcon269. This is the kind of information that I expect to find when I open a thread entitled "Post-arrest news in the case ..." in a section entitled "Camino Crime Watch" and where the opening message says that the thread will deal with discussions about the legal process.Concise article on the plea and autopsy:
https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/man-admits-killing-us-woman-spain-pilgrim-trail-164845019.html
Concise article on the plea and autopsy:
https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/man-admits-killing-us-woman-spain-pilgrim-trail-164845019.html
Site visit:
http://elprogreso.galiciae.com/noti...m-reconstruye-el-crimen-en-el-lugar-en-el-que
Thank you, Falcon269. This is the kind of information that I expect to find when I open a thread entitled "Post-arrest news in the case ..." in a section entitled "Camino Crime Watch" and where the opening message says that the thread will deal with discussions about the legal process.
This is actually also the first article I read with quotes that are followed by "the court said".
I've tried to read Spanish news articles, with the help of Google translate, as close to the source as possible, and I have the impression that there have not been very many official announcements by the police or by the judge of instruction (I use the expression on purpose, they seem to have a system similar to France). Was there a press conference with statements from the police at any time over the weekend? I did not see anything, only references such as "according to sources from the investigation" in the news articles, so probably, beyond the bare facts of arrest etc mainly inofficial leaks, speculation and rumours, nothing official.
I actually started with 3 little shells two remain so one will be for Denise. SMIIWonderful, Americanperigrino! Just discovered I had two shells last week - I guess now I know why I have these two -- I was sure I only had one. Will be wearing both beginning 8 Oct.
I'm currently in Leon, hopefully I can find a mass tomorrow to attend. Any pilgrims in Leon care to post a location please feel free. MThank you for this, @falcon269. If I read this right, the Mass will be this Wednesday, Sep. 16th at 19.30 hrs. which I calculate to be 7:30 p.m. in Spain
It's my understanding that Denise's brother will attend the service in Santiago cathedral.That would be wonderful if some of Denise's family could be there for the Mass; it would be so much more meaningful. This is all so terribly sad.
No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.
To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.
No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.
To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.
No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.
To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.
The news that the Spanish authorities have apprehended the man suspected of killing Denise is welcome, but they appear to be some way from establishing that he is a murderer. Perhaps we should hold our judgements on this until the judicial authorities have established and tested all the facts and reached their own judgement on that.I admit to speculating in the worst way, but the murderer lived within a kilometer or two of the Camino for five months after killing Denise.
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