Post-arrest news in the case of Denise Thiem

[peregrina2000]

We moderators have been discussing how to deal with the inevitable interest that the arrest in this case will generate. Discussions about the legal process and its many facets are likely to be things people will want to talk about. We are starting a new thread for people to share information on new developments.

We ask that out of respect for Denise's memory, the suffering of her family, and the sensibilities of forum members, please refrain from posting details that are graphic or likely to be disturbing to the average reader. Thanks.

 

[RumAndChupacabras]

I myself would like to hold off on condolences until such a time comes when the family announces complete identification or DNA has been proven. May the mercy and compassion of God bless them all.

 

[Americanperegrino]

Next May, I will be walking with 2 shells.

 

[domigee]

Next May, I will be walking with 2 shells.

If I'm ever so lucky as to walk the Camino again, so will I. What a lovely idea.
Dominique
Distraught, thinking of Denise's family, may she rest in peace.

 

[ivar]

We moderators have been discussing how to deal with the inevitable interest that the arrest in this case will generate. Discussions about the legal process and its many facets are likely to be things people will want to talk about. We are starting a new thread for people to share information on new developments.

We ask that out of respect for Denise's memory, the suffering of her family, and the sensibilities of forum members, please refrain from posting details that are graphic or likely to be disturbing to the average reader. Thanks.

Thank you @peregrina2000 for posting this.

 

[OTH86]

Next May, I will be walking with 2 shells.

Wonderful, Americanperigrino! Just discovered I had two shells last week - I guess now I know why I have these two -- I was sure I only had one. Will be wearing both beginning 8 Oct.

 

[grayland]

A great idea. Be sure to write Denise's name on it.
If anyone else from Seattle needs a 2nd shell....let me know and I will get you one.
I will be at the 2nd Sunday walk tomorrow, 9/13 at the Ballard locks and happy to provide one if you ask..

Ed

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I'm a two-shell gal, walking 1 October. Great idea, and thanks for it.

 

[Lemko]

Wonderful idea. I'm going to the beach next week and will search for the perfect shell to offer my spiritual vibes to Denise

 

[grayland]

These shells would be a way to finish the Pilgrimage that Denise was unable to complete.

I am working on an idea to collect the shells for Denise in Santiago for possible use as a memorial..just talking with people now.

 

[VNwalking]

Great idea, Grayland!
I have 2 shells from past Caminos that I would be more than happy to send--as well as some others that I've collected. And I'm probably not the only one. So a carefully worded request would be wise (something like "One per person, please")...otherwise your mailbox would be full of shells in short order.....

 

[grayland]

I had thought that we would just collect specific shells that have been carried now with her name on them.
These shells would have been carried to complete Denise's unfinished Camino.
This would give those of us who will be walking over the next months a way to express our
Compassion for Denise and her family.

Hold off for a bit and I will start a separate thread to discuss this idea.

 

[Icacos]

While I appreciate that Forum members are free to remember Denise, and pay tribute to her, in a manner that works for them individually, I personally, would be more comfortable waiting a while before proceeding too far, and too fast, with any plans to honour her memory. Perhaps we might give her family and loved ones time to grieve and, at some point in the future when, hopefully, their wounds have healed a bit, they might appreciate the opportunity to have some input in how her fellow pilgrims, and the Camino, might remember her.

 

[grayland]

As always, we are all entitled to our own opinions and comfort level.
No one would, or should, be asked to participate in any activity that they disagreed with or were uncomfortable in participating.

All opinions are valid.

 

[zakosdad]

While I appreciate that Forum members are free to remember Denise, and pay tribute to her, in a manner that works for them individually, I personally, would be more comfortable waiting a while before proceeding too far, and too fast, with any plans to honour her memory. Perhaps we might give her family and loved ones time to grieve and, at some point in the future when, hopefully, their wounds have healed a bit, they might appreciate the opportunity to have some input in how her fellow pilgrims, and the Camino, might remember her.

Agree - we feel that something should be done to remember Denise - not just shells but perhaps something more permanent and significant to remember her and all peregrinos who have
suffered similar fate

 

[CarriePhoto]

A link to the NY Times article. Looks like identification is verified.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/w...n-spain-is-found-and-arrest-is-made.html?_r=0

I've been a member of this forum for over a year. I don't post much. I remember first seeing Cedric's post in April and feeling concerned and saddened. I've been following the posts since and the articles about Denise's disappearance.

I never met her, but through the articles, stories from others and a similar journey that we shared years apart - I almost felt like I did. I held out hope for her safe return. I am deeply saddened by this news. There is a sense of peace in having closure and I wish that for her family.

We all handle grieve differently. I think the idea of carrying a shell is perfect. I know that for me, when I venture back to the camino in the future, I will carry a shell for her - whether or not it has a final destination point in a memorial or if I leave it in a small nook in the cathedral somewhere. The important people - me and the heavens - will know and appreciate the sentiment.

 

[OTH86]

A great idea. Be sure to write Denise's name on it.
If anyone else from Seattle needs a 2nd shell....let me know and I will get you one.
I will be at the 2nd Sunday walk tomorrow, 9/13 at the Ballard locks and happy to provide one if you ask..

Ed

I'll be there! A friend will be walking on the 8th with me (first timer ), and can't come on the 2nd Sunday walk - I'll pick up a shell for her tomorrow. Will, indeed, write Denise's name on mine - and pass it along in Leon to someone going to Santiago -- I will be stopping in Leon - should arrive about the 2nd or 3rd of Nov (leaving for Madrid the 4th) and will be at the Paris Hotel. PM me if you can meet to take Denise's shell on to Santiago. TIA!
Terry

 

[Americanperegrino]

In another post, about another topic, I mentioned that we (peregrinos) never walk alone. That, indeed, on the Camino, more than anywhere else, I am my brothers keeper. I feel a connection, a closeness, to every single Peregrino, those walking, those who have walked, and those who are planning to walk. From my experience I know many feel the same. So, when I stated I will be carrying a second shell, I'm doing so for this fellow Peregrino that I never met, but, who is my sister and who will always be a part of the Camino De Santiago now. Maybe someone with a little more eloquence than I can start a separate post for this idea. I'm thinking a post of love from fellow Peregrinos who will be walking carrying this shell, without any of the hard facts of the 'case'. Something that her family, someday, might read.

 

[grayland]

Thanks Americanperegrino
Your original idea of carrying a second shell has given many here a way to express an active demonstration of care for the loss of Denise.

 

[SabsP]

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...echoso-posibilito-identificacion_1007879.html
Clever bankclerk!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Can't say a lot that's solid just yet, but plans are in motion for a memorial on the trail outside Astorga.

 

[Annette london]

Thank you @peregrina2000 for posting this.

I would like to send a sympathy card to the family of Denise. Is there somewhere in Santiago that I could send it in order that it could be forewarded to her family. I just feel that being of "the old school" that getting a card or a letter of condolence is more personal than reading tributes online. Just a thought.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I think the family just needs a lot of time and space for now. In time, they may be open to receiving what could be thousands of sympathy cards via post, but our hearts are so open to them that we could easily overwhelm them- thousands of us have been so moved for so long, praying, worrying, watching. Just a thought.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

A mass at the Cathedral Wednesday for Denise:
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...-thiem/idEdicion-2015-09-12/idNoticia-952374/

 

[PEI_Heather]

In another post, about another topic, I mentioned that we (peregrinos) never walk alone. That, indeed, on the Camino, more than anywhere else, I am my brothers keeper. I feel a connection, a closeness, to every single Peregrino, those walking, those who have walked, and those who are planning to walk. From my experience I know many feel the same. So, when I stated I will be carrying a second shell, I'm doing so for this fellow Peregrino that I never met, but, who is my sister and who will always be a part of the Camino De Santiago now. Maybe someone with a little more eloquence than I can start a separate post for this idea. I'm thinking a post of love from fellow Peregrinos who will be walking carrying this shell, without any of the hard facts of the 'case'. Something that her family, someday, might read.

Americanperegrino,
When you walk with a second shell with Denise's name on it, I think you won't be walking alone. Denise will be with you, all the way.
I think it's a beautiful idea to walk with two scallop shells. Next year I'll do the same.
All my best!

 

[grayland]

A new thread has been started to provide information on carrying a second shell in Denise's memory. (original suggestion by Americanperegrin)
Please continue any discussion or question on this subject in that thread so we can continue this thread with discussion and news of the arrest of the dirt bag suspect.


https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/memorial-shells-for-denise.36391/

 

[PEI_Heather]

A new thread has been started to provide information on carrying a second shell in Denise's memory. (original suggestion by Americanperegrin)
Please continue any discussion or question on this subject in that thread.


https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/memorial-shells-for-denise.36391/

Many apologies, Grayland; will do.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

@Rebekah Scott ,

A new thread has been started to provide information on carrying a second shell in Denise's memory. (original suggestion by Americanperegrin)
Please continue any discussion or question on this subject in that thread so we can continue this thread with discussion and news of the arrest of the dirt bag suspect.


https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/memorial-shells-for-denise.36391/

@grayland : I find it so despicable that the "dirtbag suspect," as you termed him, was disguising himself as a pilgrim and enjoying a coffee drink when he was apprehended. He is a wolf among lambs.

I would comment that I have been struggling with how to deal with my anger toward him. I was somewhat waiting for someone to crack that door open, and your term for him did it. Thanks for letting me know that others are struggling with that feeling. I am not a good enough Christian to let this one go.

 

[domigee]

Yes, my feelings entirely. But it's part of the process of mourning, I think, at some stage the anger kicks in

 

[Anniesantiago]

I'm just curious if this guy is the same "Miguel" they have been interviewing from the beginning? The Irish pilgrim that was walking with her?
Seems to me the Spanish police have done an excellent job of this - taking care they have the right person.

 

[nidarosa]

I am wondering whether this is the same guy who has been tasering pilgrims to rob them or if we still have to be wary of that (unknown) person. Also I thought it was an Italian gentleman she was walking with? Good news that he has been caught though. Let's hope it is the right one and he gets what he deserves.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I am wondering whether this is the same guy who has been tasering pilgrims to rob them or if we still have to be wary of that (unknown) person. Also I thought it was an Italian gentleman she was walking with? Good news that he has been caught though. Let's hope it is the right one and he gets what he deserves.

Yes, I also wondered if this was the guy who tasered pilgrims.
If so, that woman who got away was very lucky!

 

[newfydog]

@Rebekah Scott ,

@grayland : I find it so despicable that the "dirtbag suspect," as you termed him, was disguising himself as a pilgrim and enjoying a coffee drink when he was apprehended. He is a wolf among lambs.

If one reads the original Codex Calixtinus describing the medieval pilgrimage, you'll find that danger was ever present. Local thieves poisoned pilgrim's horses, ferrymen drowned them in rivers, and "having laid their hands upon the spoils..., would wickedly rejoice"

Fortunately our modern society has made for a more secure civilization, but we will never entirely remove this sort of threat. It is not a make-believe journey out there---it is real life, and the modern pilgrim needs to be aware that they can be a target. Hopefully this forum can be as source of tips and advice to give the modern pilgrim one more advantage over the dirtbags out there.

 

[VNwalking]

As for 'fake pilgrims,' they are definitely out there--someplace I read the term 'camino foxes.' I've met at least one, and I bet so have others. So it behooves us all (men and women both) not to be naive. Not to be fearful, but simply discerning.

 

[domigee]

I am wondering whether this is the same guy who has been tasering pilgrims to rob them or if we still have to be wary of that (unknown) person. Also I thought it was an Italian gentleman she was walking with? Good news that he has been caught though. Let's hope it is the right one and he gets what he deserves.

No, the Italian gentleman was just that, a pilgrim, whom she had breakfast with... Like we all do - or did.

 

[CarriePhoto]

I'm just curious if this guy is the same "Miguel" they have been interviewing from the beginning? The Irish pilgrim that was walking with her?
Seems to me the Spanish police have done an excellent job of this - taking care they have the right person.

From the articles that I have read, the arrested individual was indeed questioned initially. However, he wasn't a pilgrim. The pilgrim you are talking about, the one she had been walking with, wasn't the man they arrested. The arrested man lives in that area and originally is from Madrid. His neighbors have had many unpleasant encounters with him and thought he was mentally unstable so he was known to the local police.

I believe he fled that area recently when being questioned more heavily by police. He was arrested in Asturias - in a town along the Camino Primitivo route.

 

[CarriePhoto]

I don't know, you're all freaking me out... I read the newspapers and it bears no resemblance to what I am reading here...
Please get a grip, read the Spanish newspapers or their translation....

@domigee I'm confused. What are you freaking out about? Get a grip about what?

I'm just trying to clarify so people don't think the pilgrim she was walking and went to mass with - the Italian man - was the person arrested.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

@domigee I'm confused. What are you freaking out about? Get a grip about what?

I'm just trying to clarify so people don't think the pilgrim she was walking and went to mass with - the Italian man - was the person arrested.

You are correct, CarriePhoto.
* The Italian man, an author, was completely cleared

* The fellow arrested was considered mentally unstable, and he had committed some crimes against neighbors (poisoning their animals, burning some trees down, etc).

The fellow who admitted to the horrid crime is right where he deserves to be---behind bars. Hopefully for the rest of his natural life.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I don't know, you're all freaking me out... I read the newspapers and it bears no resemblance to what I am reading here...
Please get a grip, read the Spanish newspapers or their translation....

I'm not sure why you're freaking out, but I hope you're better soon.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Please, please to the moderators can you close this discussion down.

I'm not sure why?
We were discussing things that pertain to the case.
I had heard early on that Denise was walking with a particular man and just wondered if this was the same man.
I'm not sure what the problem is?

 

[Anniesantiago]

You are correct, CarriePhoto.
* The Italian man, an author, was completely cleared

Thanks CaminoDebrita.

 

[peregrina2000]

Please, please to the moderators can you close this discussion down.

Hi, biarritzdon and others with similar opinions,
(and by the way I am speaking just for myself here),
I understand that some people do not want to engage in these discussions and expressions of anger, grief, sorrow, and that others do not want to read any more details about the actual case. But there are many who do, and though I'm by no means a counselor or a psychologist, I think that having a place to express feelings and to get cyber-support is a good thing for a lot of people.

If you don't want to read any more about this tragedy, if you don't want to offer support to those who are having a hard time with it, if you don't want to discuss ways to honor Denise's memory, etc etc, my advice would be not to open the well-marked threads. I am not saying that critically, but I think the forum is many different things to different people, and just like I may not open every post about hiking poles or where to get a bus to Leon, others may not want to open these.

The forum has traditionally been a very large tent where people and pilgrims of all stripes have been able to ask and answer questions and express their opinions, usually in a very non-threatening way. It's my opinion that now is a time for that tradition to continue, within the same respectful and sensitive bounds. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[VNwalking]

Thanks for the unique perspective, falcon269...
(still chuckling...but also agreeing with Laurie. At a buffet, no-one is forced to take what they might not like. Everyone offers what they offer and we can choose what to read. Personally, biarritzdon, as a habitual spring peregrina I would miss your weather reports and cautions...and much else. Here we may not always agree with each other but we can learn from that.)

 

[Betty Bauer]

Originally I was reading the Spanish reports which seemed to provide clarity, however when I did reach the American reports they did seem less clear and more unnerving.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Originally I was reading the Spanish reports which seemed to provide clarity, however when I did reach the American reports they did seem less clear and more unnerving.

It always works better if you can read in the original language, as some of the idioms and figures of speech don't translate well.

I've had good success with reading in Spanish, then using google translate to compare and make sure I understand.

 

[MTtoCamino]

It always works better if you can read in the original language, as some of the idioms and figures of speech don't translate well.

I've had good success with reading in Spanish, then using google translate to compare and make sure I understand.

Deb you are going to have a very good Camino. You are getting close & with all the prep you have done I am hoping you share your experience on your return.
Keith

 

[CaminoDebrita]

I'm ready for it!

 

[peregrina2000]

The Diario de Leon reports that the accused will appear in court tomorrow in Astorga (Monday, Sept. 14).

The author of the article suggests that the legal process will be very short, given that he has apparently confessed to the crime.

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...echoso-posibilito-identificacion_1007879.html

 

[grayland]

Some posts have been deleted to remove those that are off topic.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

A concise summary of the facts in English:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...erican-pilgrim-on-the-camino-de-santiago.html

 

[MichaelSG]

Was that written by Senator McCain's PR team???

 

[peregrina2000]

The Diario de León reports that the accused withdrew his confession and entered a plea of innocent. He has been formally charged with murder and will remain in jail without bail pending the outcome of the legal process.

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...tenido-acusa-homicidio-peregrina_1008204.html

 

[Deleted member 3000]

False yellow arrows may have played a role. That is a bit disconcerting, since they are important for virtually all pilgrims.
http://www.thelocal.es/20150914/suspect-directed-pilgrims-to-his-house-with-fake-camino-signs

 

[SimLin]

Hi, biarritzdon and others with similar opinions,
(and by the way I am speaking just for myself here),
I understand that some people do not want to engage in these discussions and expressions of anger, grief, sorrow, and that others do not want to read any more details about the actual case. But there are many who do, and though I'm by no means a counselor or a psychologist, I think that having a place to express feelings and to get cyber-support is a good thing for a lot of people.

If you don't want to read any more about this tragedy, if you don't want to offer support to those who are having a hard time with it, if you don't want to discuss ways to honor Denise's memory, etc etc, my advice would be not to open the well-marked threads. I am not saying that critically, but I think the forum is many different things to different people, and just like I may not open every post about hiking poles or where to get a bus to Leon, others may not want to open these.

The forum has traditionally been a very large tent where people and pilgrims of all stripes have been able to ask and answer questions and express their opinions, usually in a very non-threatening way. It's my opinion that now is a time for that tradition to continue, within the same respectful and sensitive bounds. Buen camino, Laurie

Well said...I, for one, am in a need to know - it is the unknown that makes me uneasy - grateful for this forum!

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Often, when I "like" a post here, it is because I appreciate the information and update. There is honestly very little to like here, except for all of you--and the information from the press.

 

[VNwalking]

What CaminoDebrita said. Exactly.

 

[GettingThere]

False yellow arrows may have played a role. That is a bit disconcerting, since they are important for virtually all pilgrims.
http://www.thelocal.es/20150914/suspect-directed-pilgrims-to-his-house-with-fake-camino-signs

It's not clear to me from the media reports whether they think Denise walked via the alternative route through Castrillo and was misdirected from there, or if she took the main path between Murias and Santa Catalina. The reason I mention this is because I thought at the time we walked that way in May (and even more so now) that it would be very easy to take the wrong path coming out of Castrillo if you walked that way. We did (stayed there overnight in fact), and at the top end of the village it looks as though you should go straight ahead - there is a clear path that way. But in fact you have to turn sharp left, along an asphalt road, then right at the end and fork left a little further on. We had a few moments of concern and very nearly walked straight ahead out of the village, but the instructions in Brierley's guide were to turn left (about the only time his detailed directions really came in useful!) and then we saw a couple of arrows (very faintly) painted on the road. And more at the next corner so we knew we were on track. Easy to miss though, and if anyone wanted to misdirect people there it would not be difficult (although there were no competing or misdirecting arrows on that track in May, that we noticed). It would be good if the signage there was improved, as I think this is a popular detour. All of which may not be relevant at all if she didn't walk that way, but might be useful information for some anyway.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It would be good if the signage there was improved

A few decades ago, there were no arrows! Rely on yourself, not the guys with the yellow paint.

 

[GettingThere]

A few decades ago, there were no arrows! Rely on yourself, not the guys with the yellow paint.

Well yes, and we did. I was commenting on the potential for misdirection, as that seems to be one of the current theories. And of course the fact that everyone is told to just "follow the yellow arrows" and that maps are not needed (I have seen that stated so many times on this forum). In general that is the case, and there were very few places where painted arrows or other signs were unclear. This was one of them, and had we not had a guide book we would undoubtedly have gone the wrong way. And of course that's a reason why the placing of "fake" arrows by business owners wanting customers to detour their way has created problems for some. One reason that I would always carry a guide book, and a map.

 

[peregrina2000]

The Diario de León is now reporting that the accused has once again changed his plea. At his morning appearance, he entered a plea of not guilty. He then requested another hearing (during the evening, Spain time), at which he has now once again confessed.

The paper also reports that DNA analysis confirms that the remains are of Denise Thiem.

 

[christina houpis]

So sad. My heart drops, yet again. Memory Eternal Denise.

The Diario de León is now reporting that the accused has once again changed his plea. At his morning appearance, he entered a plea of not guilty. He then requested another hearing (during the evening, Spain time), at which he has now once again confessed.

The paper also reports that DNA analysis confirms that the remains are of Denise Thiem.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Thanks Laurie.

 

[peregrina2000]

One last update for today. The judge has ordered that the accused undergo tests to determine whether he is mentally competent to understand the consequences of what he says he has done, the charges against him, etc. The term in Spanish is "imputabilidad" and I believe it is something akin to a determination in the US of whether someone is fit to stand trial (if I am wrong about that, I hope that someone will correct me). The test will delay his transfer to the provincial prison in Mansilla de las Mulas, which is where he otherwise would have been transferred today.

 

[RumAndChupacabras]

3:23 p.m. MST September 14, 2015
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ino-de-santiago-denise-thiem-family/72269246/

 

[mountaingoat999]

One last update for today. The judge has ordered that the accused undergo tests to determine whether he is mentally competent to understand the consequences of what he says he has done, the charges against him, etc. The term in Spanish is "imputabilidad" and I believe it is something akin to a determination in the US of whether someone is fit to stand trial (if I am wrong about that, I hope that someone will correct me). The test will delay his transfer to the provincial prison in Mansilla de las Mulas, which is where he otherwise would have been transferred today.

what worries me is this leading to him (the accused )building a case of diminished responsibility and some years down the line walking free....like so many we here about..
sane or insane ..competent or incompetent this can never be allowed to happen again or the accused being able to be in a position to be able to hurt anybody else...

 

[Icacos]

A mass at the Cathedral Wednesday for Denise:
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...-thiem/idEdicion-2015-09-12/idNoticia-952374/

Thank you for this, @falcon269. If I read this right, the Mass will be this Wednesday, Sep. 16th at 19.30 hrs. which I calculate to be 7:30 p.m. in Spain, if anyone would like to work out what time that is in their part of the world, to be there in spirit for Denise and her family while Mass is being said. If I've got this wrong, please someone correct me.

 

[GettingThere]

Thank you for this, @falcon269. If I read this right, the Mass will be this Wednesday, Sep. 16th at 19.30 hrs. which I calculate to be 7:30 p.m. in Spain, if anyone would like to work out what time that is in their part of the world, to be there in spirit for Denise and her family while Mass is being said. If I've got this wrong, please someone correct me.

Yes, that's the time they're giving, it's the evening pilgrim's mass. That's 5.30am here in NZ. I plan to sit quietly here and think of Denise and those who are able to be there in person.

Speaking of which - at the end of the English language article to which @falcon269 provided a link above (http://www.thelocal.es/20150914/suspect-directed-pilgrims-to-his-house-with-fake-camino-signs) it actually says that "The family of Thiem, who lived in Phoenix, Arizona will arrive in Spain on Tuesday and attend a funeral mass for the victim in the cathedral of Santiago de Compestela, the final destination of those walking the pilgrimage route." Not sure if this report is correct, but if it is - wow. I hope that some of the family really are able to be there, and that they will find some small comfort from it.

 

[jirit]

As late as Monday afternoon, there appears to be confusion about whether the family of Denise has been officially contacted by Spanish authorities confirming that the remains are in fact the body of Denise.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ino-de-santiago-denise-thiem-family/72269246/

If this is correct, then it very possible then that the family has not left Arizona.

 

[Icacos]

Yes, that's the time they're giving, it's the evening pilgrim's mass. That's 5.30am here in NZ. I plan to sit quietly here and think of Denise and those who are able to be there in person.

Am I correct that that's 5:30 am Thursday, Sep. 17th for you? I do like to keep these things straight in my head. That would be 10:30 am Wednesday here on the west coast of Canada. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaking of which - at the end of the English language article to which @falcon269 provided a link above (http://www.thelocal.es/20150914/suspect-directed-pilgrims-to-his-house-with-fake-camino-signs) it actually says that "The family of Thiem, who lived in Phoenix, Arizona will arrive in Spain on Tuesday and attend a funeral mass for the victim in the cathedral of Santiago de Compestela, the final destination of those walking the pilgrimage route." Not sure if this report is correct, but if it is - wow. I hope that some of the family really are able to be there, and that they will find some small comfort from it.

That would be wonderful if some of Denise's family could be there for the Mass; it would be so much more meaningful. This is all so terribly sad.

 

[peregrina2000]

As late as Monday afternoon, there appears to be confusion about whether the family of Denise has been officially contacted by Spanish authorities confirming that the remains are in fact the body of Denise.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ino-de-santiago-denise-thiem-family/72269246/

If this is correct, then it very possible then that the family has not left Arizona.

Based on what I have read in the Spanish press, the official confirmation that the remains found were indeed those of Denise was issued only after 10 pm Spanish time today, which would have been 1 pm in Arizona. That might explain the lag.

 

[GettingThere]

Am I correct that that's 5:30 am Thursday, Sep. 17th for you?

Hi @Icacos - yes, that's right. Thursday morning here (we're ahead of almost everyone, at least on the clock!). The birds are just starting to wake up around then at the moment.

 

[jirit]

Based on what I have read in the Spanish press, the official confirmation that the remains found were indeed those of Denise was issued only after 10 pm Spanish time today, which would have been 1 pm in Arizona. That might explain the lag.

The author of the article posted a tweet about an hour ago about 6:00 pm in Arizona that the family still had not received official notification.

 

[VNwalking]

This was published about 20 minutes ago:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ino-de-santiago-denise-thiem-family/72269246/

 

[peregrina2000]

I agree with a lot of what you say, Anemone, and the hard question here is whether to just block on the forum all references to news about the how the criminal process is proceeding or not. Some members have urged that approach in PMs. I think that we (the moderators) are still of the opinion that providing access to the latest news reports, especially for those who don't speak Spanish, is on balance positive. And we have decided to use this thread to provide information for those who want factual updates. But maybe we should reconsider. The other alternative is to block all posts dealing with the case going forward and that doesn't seem satisfactory either. It is a conundrum and I think people are conflicted.

 

[VNwalking]

I have no interest in starting a long discussion as there is obviously a range of strongly held views about the topic. Bluntly put, it's hot.

You may have been referring to my post, Anemone. And if so, I'm sorry to have caused a 'response.' Not my intention. I actually thought that putting up the most recent news report in English would be, as Laurie said, on balance, a positive thing that would keep the speculation to a minimum.

I for one would hate to have the topic 'censored.' It is less a circus in my eyes than a group of people wanting connection in what for some is a difficult time, and people coming to see what is going on. If the conversation was baseless rumor that would be one thing. But (my opinion and I'll own that) sharing published information and links is something that can help us move through to the other side of this, so that we can mostly talk about socks, walking poles, routes, and favorite albergues again.

Frankly, I look forward to the day that happens. But right now people are grieving, myself included. For me this is personal. I walked at the same time as Denise, and met her...she is (was) part of my camino family. So I also want to have the comfort of knowing (for example) if her blood family will be at the Mass on Wednesday...and the like.

 

[mountaingoat999]

I agree with a lot of what you say, Anemone, and the hard question here is whether to just block on the forum all references to news about the how the criminal process is proceeding or not. Some members have urged that approach in PMs. I think that we (the moderators) are still of the opinion that providing access to the latest news reports, especially for those who don't speak Spanish, is on balance positive. And we have decided to use this thread to provide information for those who want factual updates. But maybe we should reconsider. The other alternative is to block all posts dealing with the case going forward and that doesn't seem satisfactory either. It is a conundrum and I think people are conflicted.

blocking news........you can read about this in any language anyplace anytime anywhere......this forum is only a very small window to the world at large regarding the camino.....all that will happen will be those who wish to know will find out from the media......news travels fast and everywhere...this is not a crime exclusive to the camino and potential pilgrims...it is everyday news effecting everybody......

 

[IngridF]

Am I correct that that's 5:30 am Thursday, Sep. 17th for you? I do like to keep these things straight in my head. That would be 10:30 am Wednesday here on the west coast of Canada. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That would be wonderful if some of Denise's family could be there for the Mass; it would be so much more meaningful. This is all so terribly sad.

The mass is 7:30 pm the regular evening pilgrims mass. BTW, Denise has been mentioned and prayed for in each mass here in Santiago....as l would think in most churches on the Camino. Sometimes she is especially mentioned.

I will be in Madrid that evening and light a candle. Ingrid

 

[Anemone del Camino]

@peregrina2000 and @Viranani, thank you for responding to my post which has apparently been deleted.
(Edited by moderator (grayland)

@Viranani, you met Denise, walked with her, I can see why this particularly touches you. I am sorry if my irkiness towards all this goes against what you feel you need and helps you at this time. Clearly your link to these event is very different than for the vast majority of people on this forum. (Edited)

Laurie, as Moderators you are struggling as to how do deal with this, it must be a challenge. I'm thinking a daily closed post from Moderators,with links they have found or were sent during the day? I don't know, I don't pretend to know. Who am I to tell you what to do.

I have felt very uncomfortable with all that has gone on since the day Cedric posted looking for his sister's whereabouts, with people here taking it on them to become private investigators, identifying suspects, demanding the police do more and then "mourning" for a person they have no links to as if they were actual freidns and family. We should all be so concerned will the millions of hungry and displaced people around the world. I really struggle with these relationships people seem to feel they have through a computer screen, especially with a person they never knew, never met, never spoke or have written to. A person whom if theynhad met they may have not gotten along with, even disliked. Feeling sorrow for the loss of others is one thing, and the condoleances thread does that very well.
(Edited)
Thank you for reading.

 

[William Marques]

The moderators are keeping an eye in this thread and while always valuing freedom of speech will endeavour to stop/delete any speculation or links to or reposting of graphic details.

I understand your feelings Anenome and it is not an easy job keeping this discussion on the rails but not censoring too much.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

I respect you Anemone for being so candid. I agree with and share many of your concerns and second your suggestion that contributions be confined to information from the moderators. I don't see this as censorship, moderators are there to moderate and there is a family out there grieving who need the utmost consideration and sensitivity in this time.

 

[Tia Valeria]

This thread is meeting a need for some, as has been said we do not have to read it. However if at any time it could hinder the process of a trial and justice then IMHO we should refrain from posting, or the moderators could lock it at that point and they could add links to the media reports if felt to be appropriate.

 

[Dutch]

A mass at the Cathedral Wednesday for Denise:
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...-thiem/idEdicion-2015-09-12/idNoticia-952374/

Thanks for the info. I will attend.

 

[MoniRose]

On Friday and Saturday this week I will be speaking at a women's retreat on the Camino. I will be offering up my thoughts and words in memory of Denise, who walked the Camino by faith. There, but for the grace of God, go I.
Rest in peace, fellow traveler. - Monica

 

[grayland]

Gently..
This thread is intended to provide a place to discuss developments on this sad subject. It is a very difficult subject for many and this thread provides a small outlet.

Arguments and personal remarks about the posts and motives of others will not be allowed and will be deleted.

If this thread disturbs you...we ask that you not read it and refrain from remarks about the posts of other forum members.

Thanks for working together on this.

 

[VNwalking]

Anemone, I appreciate your thoughtful reply, thank you. We may not see things the same way but you bring up some important points...perhaps for another thread?
Everyone...I've replied to Anemone at more length directly and hope this thread can stay open and on track--about what its title says: news, and other pertinent information. And she's totally right. It not a bad idea for us all to reflect about why we're posting what we post, before we hit the send button.
Thanks also to you all-patient moderators. Not an easy time and not an easy call, one way or the other.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Concise article on the plea and autopsy:
https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/man-admits-killing-us-woman-spain-pilgrim-trail-164845019.html

Site visit:
http://elprogreso.galiciae.com/noti...m-reconstruye-el-crimen-en-el-lugar-en-el-que

 

[Kathar1na]

Concise article on the plea and autopsy:
https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/man-admits-killing-us-woman-spain-pilgrim-trail-164845019.html

Thank you, Falcon269. This is the kind of information that I expect to find when I open a thread entitled "Post-arrest news in the case ..." in a section entitled "Camino Crime Watch" and where the opening message says that the thread will deal with discussions about the legal process.

This is actually also the first article I read with quotes that are followed by "the court said".

I've tried to read Spanish news articles, with the help of Google translate, as close to the source as possible, and I have the impression that there have not been very many official announcements by the police or by the judge of instruction (I use the expression on purpose, they seem to have a system similar to France). Was there a press conference with statements from the police at any time over the weekend? I did not see anything, only references such as "according to sources from the investigation" in the news articles, so probably, beyond the bare facts of arrest etc mainly inofficial leaks, speculation and rumours, nothing official.

 

[mountaingoat999]

Concise article on the plea and autopsy:
https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/man-admits-killing-us-woman-spain-pilgrim-trail-164845019.html

Site visit:
http://elprogreso.galiciae.com/noti...m-reconstruye-el-crimen-en-el-lugar-en-el-que

Thanks also Fallcon269

at least with a guilty plea this will spare a long drawn out trail in however many years its seems to take in Spain.

 

[peregrina2000]

Thank you, Falcon269. This is the kind of information that I expect to find when I open a thread entitled "Post-arrest news in the case ..." in a section entitled "Camino Crime Watch" and where the opening message says that the thread will deal with discussions about the legal process.

This is actually also the first article I read with quotes that are followed by "the court said".

I've tried to read Spanish news articles, with the help of Google translate, as close to the source as possible, and I have the impression that there have not been very many official announcements by the police or by the judge of instruction (I use the expression on purpose, they seem to have a system similar to France). Was there a press conference with statements from the police at any time over the weekend? I did not see anything, only references such as "according to sources from the investigation" in the news articles, so probably, beyond the bare facts of arrest etc mainly inofficial leaks, speculation and rumours, nothing official.

Hi, Kathar1na,

Today there was a press conference given by Ignacio Cosidó, Director General of the National Police, to explain some unusual features of this case. For one thing, all of the pieces of potential evidence have been delivered to the Comisaría General de la Policía Nacional, which is an investigative arm of the National Police, as best as I can figure out. This means that all of the analysis of the evidence will be done by this one office, apparently an unusual move that happens only in rare cases (he referred to two other examples where the function of "evidence analysis" had been put in that office, and one of them was the AVE crash coming into Santiago, so I am assuming this is an office/agency that is used in extremely high profile cases).

He also explained that the results of the autopsy will not be released. And finally, Mr. Cosidó responded to the criticism of a group of Guardias Civiles who asserted that the jurisdictional fight between and among different branches of police in Spain had resulted in unnecessary delay in the case.

The accused has now been transferred to the regional prison in Mansilla de las Mulas.

This information came from the Diario de Leon, whose coverage is quite complete and IMO does a pretty good job of avoiding speculation, second-guessing, and rumor mongering. I think you are right that the judge has not given any official statements, but her orders and actions have been reported in the press. As you might expect, the English language articles seem to take all their information from the Spanish press reports.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Wonderful, Americanperigrino! Just discovered I had two shells last week - I guess now I know why I have these two -- I was sure I only had one. Will be wearing both beginning 8 Oct.

I actually started with 3 little shells two remain so one will be for Denise. SMII

 

[Saint Mike II]

I'm

Thank you for this, @falcon269. If I read this right, the Mass will be this Wednesday, Sep. 16th at 19.30 hrs. which I calculate to be 7:30 p.m. in Spain

I'm currently in Leon, hopefully I can find a mass tomorrow to attend. Any pilgrims in Leon care to post a location please feel free. M

 

[Saint Mike II]

That would be wonderful if some of Denise's family could be there for the Mass; it would be so much more meaningful. This is all so terribly sad.

It's my understanding that Denise's brother will attend the service in Santiago cathedral.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.

To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.

 

[SimLin]

No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.

To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.

Beautifully put...so true for many women such as myself. You say, "She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit." - no longer!

 

[GettingThere]

No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.

To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.

Exactly. This is exactly it. Thank you, Rebekah, for putting it so eloquently. This is a loss, and we do mourn.

And so perhaps - perhaps the task now (or in a while, not quite yet) is to ask what we - individually, collectively, whatever - can do to help bring back some of that, to try to make the Camino again somewhere that women can "stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit" as you put it so beautifully. I know many, many women (and men) have been doing this already over the past months, offering to walk with others, making sure those walking along stay safe. We've seen some of that here on the forum. Maybe it's a start. Perhaps not exactly a "take back the Camino", but perhaps there will be more that we can do. I do hope so.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.

To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.

Yes, yes, and yes. Truth is right here.

 

[Betty Bauer]

I feel as well, that because for the most part the Camino is seen as not something we decide to do, or a goal that we make, but instead something that we are called to, resolution is something that we all need, because Denise was called to the Camino no differently than us.

 

[dougfitz]

I admit to speculating in the worst way, but the murderer lived within a kilometer or two of the Camino for five months after killing Denise.

The news that the Spanish authorities have apprehended the man suspected of killing Denise is welcome, but they appear to be some way from establishing that he is a murderer. Perhaps we should hold our judgements on this until the judicial authorities have established and tested all the facts and reached their own judgement on that.

Further, I worry about vilifying him here, despite the enormity of what we suspect he has done. It might be an unthinking expression of the anger individuals might feel, but seems quite contrary to the notion of forgiveness expressed consistently throughout Christian teaching.

 

[peregrina2000]

Well said, Doug. This thread is not the place for speculation or vilification. We would like to limit it to a discussion of the facts surrounding the arrest and prosecution of the accused. I know it's hard not to let emotions and safety concerns enter the discussion but please keep this thread on track.

For the record, the accused has withdrawn his admission of guilt at least twice, but the Diario de Leon is reporting that his new lawyer has just issued a statement in which he again admits his guilt and asks forgiveness.

 

[peregrina2000]

Sorry, but some of these posts have been deleted. Debates about proper punishment, forgiveness and speculation about motive are just not appropriate here. I know it's difficult, but we really want to limit this discussion to facts about the judicial proceedings. There is too much unknown and too much raw emotion.