Respectful in Spain

[Scott Sweeney]

Am I the only one who believes climbing up and onto the metal sculptures on Alto de Perdón is a little unnecessary and direspectful.

How proper at the Height of Forgiveness!

 

[Kiwi-family]

maybe;-)

 

[Scott Sweeney]

I believe the artist would feel different. Just my opinion though.

 

[MendiWalker]

Did you say anything to the brainless?

Ondo Ibili !

 

[MichaelSG]

Am I the only one who believes climbing up and onto the metal sculptures on Alto de Perdón is a little unnecessary and direspectful.

I hope not.

 

[Scott Sweeney]

I remember and understand the jubilation one can expierence with their daily accomplishments on the Camino but to climb and sit upon the statues and have your picture posted online.... something is wrong with that.

We are guests in the country when we walk the Camino Del Santiago and one of hundreds of thousands who pass by these tributes to the pilgrim.

 

[Tincatinker]

@Scott Sweeney , I (kind-of) agree that there is "something wrong" with this behaviour. But I also remember when (1974?) the revolutionary new Director of the Hotel Biron in Paris decreed that it was permissible to touch Rodin's works. "The master touched them, why should the pupil not." Cast-iron / sheet steel, like old stone can cope with the abuse of the years.

Some of the behaviour I witnessed at the Cruz de Ferro did make me wince. Pilgrims in prayer or in tears being photographed; tourists fresh from the bus playing "king of the castle"...

 

[Wanderer64]

It's almost impossible to reason with vanity, or expect courtesy or respect from the vane, in this social media era.

It's not just in Spain, it seems people the world over will do just about anything, including risking death, to get that all important selfie or vanity (I was here) shot for their FB page.

 

[MendiWalker]

@Tincatinker

One thing to touch a metal statue another is climb and sit on it. Totally uncalled for.

Ondo Ibili !

 

[7wood]

Am I the only one who believes climbing up and onto the metal sculptures on Alto de Perdón is a little unnecessary and direspectful.

How proper at the Height of Forgiveness!

Unfortunately there are ar**!!!es everywhere who have no respect for anything.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

For every thoughtless pilgrim, there are a thousand who behave.

 

[DurhamParish]

For every thoughtless pilgrim, there are a thousand who behave.

Amen!

 

[mikevasey]

My initial reaction was to laugh at the photo, but the more I looked it just seemed a bit sad. It feels like there is no respect for people of the area which the sculptures are in, its similar to people walking around churches/cathedrals while services are on and they are taking photos and talking over the service.

 

[alexwalker]

Wrong attitude. No respect. Will change after some time real walking on the Camino, hopefully.

 

[Scott Sweeney]

I don't believe that everyone who walks this Camino walks with the same intent, however I feel everyone should be respectful of those who walked before them and those monuments along the way.

 

[alexwalker]

Scott,
I completely agree with you on this stupidity, I just believe, or rather hope, that by the end of their walk, people will have achieved a different attitude at what they have gone through, and have had a bright-eyed moment of what the Camino does deliver to their minds. I. I hope so. I deliberately write "people", not "pilgrims" because some people arrive there (Alto del Perden) too soon to have become real pilgrims. On all other accounts, I agree with you: Disgusting.

But for a tourist: Nice shoot. Go on as a tourist...

 

[Dennis D]

It is the less than one percent that can spoil it for the rest, because they choose not to follow a simple guideline when they are away from their homes. This includes behavior when visiting monuments, a church, statues, and trail courtesy such as leaving toilet tissue behind.

" Treat others the way you would like to be treated."

Doing so would help to make it a Buen Camino for everyone.

 

[AJ]

" Treat others the way you would like to be treated."

Please don't make this recommendation to a masochist.

 

[colinPeter]

Some of the behaviour I witnessed at the Cruz de Ferro did make me wince. Pilgrims in prayer or in tears being photographed; tourists fresh from the bus playing "king of the castle"...

Like the group I saw sitting around the base of the cross on top of the stone mound and spent 1/2 an hour having lunch yelling and laughing away while pilgrims basically waited at the base until they had finished their performance and moved on.
But it's not the Camino, no shortage of idiots in most places.
Still each time I walk I plan not to let fools upset me, haven't had much success so far, maybe next time I'll feel waves of joy & love flowing towards all.
We'll see...
Buen Camino
Colin

 

[Kanga]

@colinPeter you have made me laugh. My latest technique is borrowed from childbirth classes .... when totally infuriated I pant.....

 

[colinPeter]

you have made me laugh. My latest technique is borrowed from childbirth classes .... when totally infuriated I pant.....

Well, having just watched three seasons of "Call the Midwife", I could probably try that as well.
Do you think I might begin to feel motherly affection toward them?

 

[wayfarer]

Like the group I saw sitting around the base of the cross on top of the stone mound and spent 1/2 an hour having lunch yelling and laughing away while pilgrims basically waited at the base until they had finished their performance and moved on.
But it's not the Camino, no shortage of idiots in most places.
Still each time I walk I plan not to let fools upset me, haven't had much success so far, maybe next time I'll feel waves of joy & love flowing towards all.
We'll see...
Buen Camino
Colin

Had a somewhat similar experience in 2012, I was very peeved at the time but I got over it.

 

[Jane Erasmus]

My initial reaction was to laugh at the photo, but the more I looked it just seemed a bit sad. It feels like there is no respect for people of the area which the sculptures are in, its similar to people walking around churches/cathedrals while services are on and they are taking photos and talking over the service.

I agree mikevasey, I could not believe the behaviour of some during a Mass in Samos, talking (loudly), taking flash photos and wandering around in the front of the church totally disregarding the Priests (who are going about their daily worship -not putting on a show for tourists!) and the congregation.

 

[DurhamParish]

One of the problems with the increased publicity of the camino.

 

[Theatregal]

All we can do is practice respectful behaviour personally. I do think it's unnecessary to post photos of others and then make fun of them in this forum.

 

[Icacos]

All we can do is practice respectful behaviour personally. I do think it's unnecessary to post photos of others and then make fun of them in this forum.

Good point. And who knows, they may already be mightily ashamed of their behaviour ... And there's no undoing those photographs.

 

[vgen5122]

I my opinion, I think it's ok to take a picture of yourself by a monument. When someone climbs on a monument, that's a whole different story. I can see the humor in some of it, but it is highly disrespectful to the people of Spain, and to the Camino. I hope in saying these things I am not being too judgemental, but these statues, and monuments represent history.
As to the religion of the Spanish people, and their churches, weather you are a believer or not, pilgrims should be as respectful to the Spanish people as they would want them to be respectful of their beliefs. Buen Camino

 

[obinjatoo@yahoo.com]

I saw pilgrims and tourists and athletes doing all kinds of stuff along the way. People were having sex in their bunks in the albergues. It's none of my business what other pilgrims do. I'm not the morality police.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

I'm really not understanding the "outrage" here. It is seriously judgmental and over the top - to the point of declaring that someone who climbs on the statue is not a real pilgrim..... is just a '"tourist" who wants to post a trophy photo on Facebook?! Wow.

edited

Here is a short list of ACTUAL problems on the Camino, with regards to selfish, disrespectful, disruptive, destructive behavior:

Vandalism - destruction of, or damage of, private or public property
Theft - from other peregrinos, or from Spanish farmers (stealing produce) or barkeeps (like rolls of TP from their bathrooms)
Littering - including the disgusting used TP and unburied human waste along the trail
Being a thoughtless jerk - disrupting a church service with photo-taking or other "tourist" behavior, being loud and rude during refugio quiet hours, loudly monopolizing solemn sites like the Cruz de Ferro.....
Ignoring posted warning signs - I'm not aware of a sign on the Alto de Perdon that warn peregrinos off of touching or climbing on the statues?

Have the statues been damaged by peregrinos touching them or even climbing on them? Has a sign been posted instructing peregrinos not to climb on them? If the answers are "no" and "no", then I'm not seeing the big, outrageous, disrespectful issue here.

Edited by moderators to delete personal attack remarks. Posters are reminded that personal attacks will not be tolerated

 

[mikevasey]

I don't know what a real pilgrim is , I know that people claim that this or that behaviour indicates that is the mark of a real one but I find that the walk/pilgrimage is a process that brings out the less complicated and more in tune self, but the person on the donkey looked an idiot, she may be a very nice person but it was not one of her finer moments.
I will have to go and knock on my neighbours doors and tell them to to put no climbing signs on their fences, I don't see how they could have been so blind not to put them up in the first place, its obvious that any passer by was within their rights to climb over them as they wished.

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Excuse me, maybe not in this case but damage could be done to these sculptures!
It is immature and disrespectful...PERIOD!

The picture is important so other asses or assettes understand we are guests in this nation.

Grow up!

 

[MichaelSG]

After reading through some of these recent posts, I must admit, it has given me great pause to reflect and reconsider my earlier comments. For the record, I'll stand by my earlier post 100%. Climbing on those pieces of art is wrong and if you need a sign to tell you so, the sign above that says "an arse on an ass" just may be too subtle.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

I don't know what a real pilgrim is , I know that people claim that this or that behaviour indicates that is the mark of a real one but I find that the walk/pilgrimage is a process that brings out the less complicated and more in tune self, but the person on the donkey looked an idiot, she may be a very nice person but it was not one of her finer moments.
I will have to go and knock on my neighbours doors and tell them to to put no climbing signs on their fences, I don't see how they could have been so blind not to put them up in the first place, its obvious that any passer by was within their rights to climb over them as they wished.

There is no equivalence there. Your neighbor's fence is private property. The very existence of a fence is to mark the boundary of private, or otherwise restricted, property, rendering a sign to that effect redundant. If you scaled that fence anyway, you would be trespassing on private property. That is generally illegal.

Public artwork is on public grounds, and is generally quite sturdy. It is unfenced. It is subject to pollution and all weather conditions - snow, ice, hail, rain, lightning, heat..... It is subject to the whims of wildlife. Birds may perch and poop on it. It is subject to people to people touching it, embracing it, having their photo taken with it..... If there need to be restrictions on that access, then it should be fenced, and/or signage should indicate its fragility. In the absence of that, the default is that it may, indeed, unlike private or museum artwork, be touched.

It is fine if you choose to not approach, touch, or climb on the public artwork. If you think someone else doing so looks silly, even "idiotic", that is an opinion you are entitled to possess.

But I think it is far, far sillier, to declare that playing on or around the public sculpture on the Alto de Perdon is somehow disrespectful, or an affront or insult to Spain and the Spanish people.

 

[grayland]

......the moderators would like to respectfully ask posters to tone it down.

Some personal remarks have been deleted...the thread will be closed if further personal remarks are posted.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

Have the statues been damaged by peregrinos touching them or even climbing on them? Has a sign been posted instructing peregrinos not to climb on them? If the answers are "no" and "no", then I'm not seeing the big, outrageous, disrespectful issue here.

Edited by moderators to delete personal attack remarks. Posters are reminded that personal attacks will not be tolerated

I did not make a "personal attack remark". I called out another poster who mocked someone's weight. It is that poster's comment that is an actual "personal attack remark".

I am confused why my plea for a poster to not attack a woman's personal appearance was removed..... but the post attacking her appearance was not. Why is that comment being "tolerated"?

I will report that post directly with the report button. This forum is very heavily moderated. I hope it will, at the very least, be consistently moderated. But it is very disheartening that the mean post was actually "liked" by a moderator.

At least those mean-spirited photos were removed.

 

[AJ]

But I think it is far, far sillier, to declare that playing on or around the public sculpture on the Alto de Perdon is somehow disrespectful, or an affront or insult to Spain and the Spanish people.

So do I.

 

[Brissy]

......the moderators would like to respectfully ask posters to tone it down.

Some personal remarks have been deleted...the thread will be closed if further personal remarks are posted.

Please close it?

 

[MichaelSG]

At least those mean-spirited photos were removed.

At least one of those mean-spirited photos was proudly posted on the internet by one of the two asses in the photo. I don't think it was the metal one though.

 

[MichaelSG]

If there need to be restrictions on that access, then it should be fenced, and/or signage should indicate its fragility. In the absence of that, the default is that it may, indeed, unlike private or museum artwork, be touched.

You don't have a cool picture of yourself sitting on Lincoln's lap at his memorial in Washington, do you?

 

[saltwaterpearl]

At least one of those mean-spirited photos was proudly posted on the internet by one of the two asses in the photo. I don't think it was the metal one though.

You don't have a cool picture of yourself sitting on Lincoln's lap at his memorial in Washington, do you?

Dear Moderators,
My "report" button is not currently working, perhaps due to the server issues. But in the interest of consistent site moderation, I expect you will be removing MichaelSG's ugly personal attack posts very soon. Thank you.

 

[MichaelSG]

It's not an ugly personal attack. It's a question. My point is that indoor or outdoor, art is not for climbing on. I know there are many pieces that artists specifically want to be touched but they make that clear. There should be a sign that says "touch", otherwise touching is disrespectful of at least the artist.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

It's not an ugly personal attack. It's a question. My point is that indoor or outdoor, art is not for climbing on. I know there are many pieces that artists specifically want to be touched but they make that clear. There should be a sign that says "touch", otherwise touching is disrespectful of at least the artist.

Repeatly calling someone an "ass" is an ugly personal attack. And seeing as how you are not doing it to their face, and they are not here and able to defend themselves, it is also a cowardly personal attack.

And to answer your "question", the Lincoln Memorial is as much, if not more so, a memorial as it is public art. That, combined with the rope and signs they put around it, makes it perfectly clear that it is not to be touched or climbed on.

So your sarcastic little "jab" is not equivalent or relevant.

 

[Kanga]

No-one has a right to do what they like with public property. Any public property. It belongs to others, as much as to ourselves.

 

[dougfitz]

snip ... My point is that indoor or outdoor, art is not for climbing on. I know there are many pieces that artists specifically want to be touched but they make that clear. There should be a sign that says "touch", otherwise touching is disrespectful of at least the artist.

I disagree. Certainly where I live and I suspect in many other cities in the world, there are public art pieces displayed in places and ways that make them readily accessible for the public to touch, sit on or climb over, if that is their inclination. I think it foolish to suggest that there is some boundary around how people must experience publicly accessible artworks and interact with them.

I am sure that when they are commissioned to produce such a work, the artists themselves contemplate that there will be myriad ways in which people might interact with their work, including some which it seems some of us find unattractive. Certainly the public authorities which commission such works should be conscious of these possibilities, and I suspect would include their concerns on that in any artist's brief or in their discussions with the artist.

Since this thread began, I have been asking myself 'Where was the harm?'. I honestly cannot detect it. No-one appears to have been hurt. There doesn't appear to have been any vandalism or other damage done. It doesn't appear that any law, by-law, local ordinance or similar has been contravened. I don't remember any local signs asking people to keep off, nor any barriers around the work when I was there in 2010, but clearly some could have been erected since. Merely finding the actions of the individuals unattractive is not harm - there are many more important things in this world to worry about than that, surely?

Can anyone honestly tell me that there has been any harm?

 

[MichaelSG]

So some people need to see damage or specific "do not touch" signs to help them determine what is right or wrong? Wow. I guess that's why they had to make a law to stop people from penetrating the Yongala. And I suppose our American friends are cool with this too:

 

[Kanga]

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you @dougfitz as no damage was apparently done to the sculptures. But I still wouldn't climb on them. If everyone did, they would get ruined sooner or later - they are only metal sheets.
I'm also thinking of our local sculptures - the Queen Victoria statute in Queens Square, or Arthur Phillip on his horse, or Govenor Macquarie in Macquarie Street. People might climb them for a protest, or university high jinks or similar, but I would not want it to happen too often. It is disrespectful. Statues depicting people are done in recognition of achievement or memory. The pilgrim statues are not of specific individuals but they still represent the valour and journeys of many. Perhaps that is what upsets forum members.

 

[saltwaterpearl]

MichaelSG

The Yongala is not a work of public art. Therefore, it is not relevant to the discussion.

Climbing Mt. Rushmore is specifically prohibited and illegal. Therefore, it is not relevant to the discussion.

What else ya got?

 

[MichaelSG]

See; you must be someone that needs specific written moral guidance. I was taught that by my Mom & Dad.

As you need to discuss only works on the Camino between SJPdP and Santiago, how about climbing the pole of the Cruz de Ferro? I don't recall a sign there, so it must be cool by you, no?

How about climbing on this guy or is that not relevant because it's on the Portuguese route? Cool or not? I saw no signs or laws banning climbing.

 

[ivar]

Will close this thread now.