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They may be rude, but they are a product of what came before--no more and no less. Just as bad/poor soil produces a poor plant, so does a bad/poor life experience. Perhaps the key is not the rude behavior happening but how one responds to it. Responding to it negatively does not affect the rude bicyclist one iota, but does it affect the person responding negatively? What do I know, but I suspect it does. And I suspect it does not affect this person in a positive vein. At the same time, it is so hard to not react.I've found that people riding bicycles are, for the most part, courteous. Being a solo walker, I can usually hear them coming, and move further to the right or stop and watch them pass with an exchange of Buen Caminos.
I think it’s gotten worse with the e-bikes. Now there are way more people doing bicycles. E-cyclists generally don’t have as much experience as regular cyclists. Most importantly, the e-bikes go a lot faster.Here we go again with the bicyclist vs walking pilgrim feud. I guess what I find so unreasonable is that anybody could possibly think there's enough room on a narrow path for both foot pedestrians and bicyclists, and said bicyclists are approaching the foot pedestrians from the rear and the pedestrians do not know they are approaching. Even more when the blame is put on the walking pilgrim, who may be in conversation with other pilgrims and may be walking abreast across the path, which is what we humans do when we walk together. Throw in that the foot pilgrims may be older, slower reflexes and perhaps just not familiar with bicycles on a path. Pilgrims do come from all different backgrounds, not all expect bicycles to be approaching them from behind at 10-20 mph. Hope that's not news to anybody reading this, and please don't say that they should know. That's unrealistic.
I have actually had bicyclists on the Frances physically brush me, make contact with me as they went by and I saw one hit a pilgrim once on the stretch between Saint Jean and Roncesvalles. Fortunately he braked, stopped and the collision was minor, but he did strike the pilgrim from behind. I suppose I have observed at least a thousand pilgrims along different Camino routes and I gotta say, I never saw one walking pilgrim crash into another walking pilgrim. Heck, I've seen runners on the path and I never saw a runner collide with a pilgrim. I wonder why that is?
I guess it is a bitter pill to swallow, the fact that sections of the path that are narrow and popular, heavy with foot pilgrim traffic, simply cannot accommodate bicyclists as well when foot pilgrims are present. Instead of swallowing that pill I suppose the strategy is to shift the blame.
My experience was in April 2015 before E-bikes were "on the scene"...I can only imagine the possibilities now.I think it’s gotten worse with the e-bikes. Now there are way more people doing bicycles. E-cyclists generally don’t have as much experience as regular cyclists. Most importantly, the e-bikes go a lot faster.
Actually, ebikes - at least the ones that are legal in Europe (aka pedelecs) - don't go any faster than regular bicycles. Granted, you may climb more easily and negate headwinds to a certain extent, but that's it. I actually go faster on my gravel bike than on my ebike.I think it’s gotten worse with the e-bikes. Now there are way more people doing bicycles. E-cyclists generally don’t have as much experience as regular cyclists. Most importantly, the e-bikes go a lot faster.
I’m currently on the Frances and from what I’ve seen the e-bikes outnumber the regular bikes by about 3 to 1. While the people riding them may not be going faster than a competitive cyclist, they’re definitely going faster than they would be able to on a regular bike.Actually, ebikes - at least the ones that are legal in Europe (aka pedelecs) - don't go any faster than regular bicycles. Granted, you may climb more easily and negate headwinds to a certain extent, but that's it. I actually go faster on my gravel bike than on my ebike.
S - Pedelecs are not that common (approx 2% of sales in Germany) being classified as motorcycles.
Where I do agree is that it gives a false sense of confidence and gets people onto trails they shouldn't be on. On the roads, it makes no difference.
Were they on the camino or on the road? During May, riding the Frances, there seemed to be a few ebikes (3:1, difficult to quantify) but I saw them mainly on the road. Of course it's very difficult measure, some bikers only ride the road, some (like me) alternate depending on conditions & number of peregrinos but I suspect only a very few extreme bikers ride 100% camino. You're right, the main advantage of an ebike is the ease of climbing but a heavy eMTB gets stock on seriously rocky uphill sections.I’m currently on the Frances and from what I’ve seen the e-bikes outnumber the regular bikes by about 3 to 1. While the people riding them may not be going faster than a competitive cyclist, they’re definitely going faster than they would be able to on a regular bike.
The Francis is a one-way westbound free-for-all where I think you just have to take your chances.Last month on the Camino Madrid I walked on a shared bicycle pedestrian path where pedestrians were instructed to walk on the left half and bicyclist were asked do use the right half.
This worked surprisingly well as when the bicyclist met pedestrians they had to change lanes and make a passing maneuver, and as a pedestrian the bicycles were all either in the other lane or if in your lane they were coming at you from ahead and not behind.
I tried this on other unmarked shared paths and it was working nicely until I intercepted the Frances at Sahagun.
The Francis is a one-way westbound free-for-all where I think you just have to take your chances.
I walked Sarria to SJPP a few years back and we encountered many rude bicyclists. Some yelling for us to get out of their way. Racing too fast, and never using a bell or horn. Not all bicyclists are rude but most of the ones we encountered were.A complaining post by someone who gave up at Alto de Perdón included:
"- the bicycles are out of control. There were a few cyclists with shells on but there were far, far more local cycle clubs using the Camino trail as a training route. Why do none of these bikes have a horn or a bell to warn people they are coming from behind? The trail isn't even as wide as a sidewalk. There is no way to step to the side while wearing a backpack. It's not wide enough to comfortably accommodate both a bike and a walker. And even more numbers coming at you at race speed with local riders."
I've biked more than half of Francés and more than fifty kilometers on Vía de la Plata and walked maybe a quarter of Francés, so my perception is that this complaint is not completely fair. Some parts are narrow, but many are not. And when walking or biking slow, any cyclist who passed me warned me they were coming. As for warnings, my bike DOES have a bell, but often, after ringing the bell, hollering "bicycle passing" in Spanish, English, and another language, and slowing down to walking speed, pilgrims still seem startled when I finally pass them. And I never encountered more than two other cyclists together.
I am glad your travels have gone smoothly, but mine have been different. I have seen peds injured both from being struck and from suddenly having to clear the roadway. In my opinion, this is not rudeness, but rather a sense of entitlement, on many bicyclists part. Notice I did not say all. they want to have fun and be edgy, your concerns have no bearing on their actions, they are not important enough. As the gangs say about innocent victims of shootings in South L.A., they are just mushrooms that pop up in the way. Same with the peregrine/a.I agree it wasn't a fair assessment and glad that thread got locked. I've walked the CF twice, plus the Le Puy and consistently received a warning from passing cyclists, be it the ding of a bell or verbal alert, followed by a cheery "buen camino/bon chemin!".
What does not seem to be addressed is that while the path is for the most part wide enough it is not flat. There typically is a flat narrow section on the top left and right. Center is vee shaped and that's where the loose Gravel is more prominent. So if I'm on the top left or right do I have to yield to someone behind me. That places me in the weeds or jumping to the opposite side or walking in the center with all the loose Gravel. I realize the loose gravel and or transitioning from one side to the other is difficult for the cyclists but it is just as difficult for the walker.A complaining post by someone who gave up at Alto de Perdón included:
"- the bicycles are out of control. There were a few cyclists with shells on but there were far, far more local cycle clubs using the Camino trail as a training route. Why do none of these bikes have a horn or a bell to warn people they are coming from behind? The trail isn't even as wide as a sidewalk. There is no way to step to the side while wearing a backpack. It's not wide enough to comfortably accommodate both a bike and a walker. And even more numbers coming at you at race speed with local riders."
I've biked more than half of Francés and more than fifty kilometers on Vía de la Plata and walked maybe a quarter of Francés, so my perception is that this complaint is not completely fair. Some parts are narrow, but many are not. And when walking or biking slow, any cyclist who passed me warned me they were coming. As for warnings, my bike DOES have a bell, but often, after ringing the bell, hollering "bicycle passing" in Spanish, English, and another language, and slowing down to walking speed, pilgrims still seem startled when I finally pass them. And I never encountered more than two other cyclists together.
The cyclists she is talking about I think are the groups of competitive cyclists who use the Camino pathways to train. Riding really fast, dressed in matching lycra, and swooping around the pilgrims. No bell, no warning, and 8 others close behind.A complaining post by someone who gave up at Alto de Perdón included:
"- the bicycles are out of control. There were a few cyclists with shells on but there were far, far more local cycle clubs using the Camino trail as a training route. Why do none of these bikes have a horn or a bell to warn people they are coming from behind? The trail isn't even as wide as a sidewalk. There is no way to step to the side while wearing a backpack. It's not wide enough to comfortably accommodate both a bike and a walker. And even more numbers coming at you at race speed with local riders."
I've biked more than half of Francés and more than fifty kilometers on Vía de la Plata and walked maybe a quarter of Francés, so my perception is that this complaint is not completely fair. Some parts are narrow, but many are not. And when walking or biking slow, any cyclist who passed me warned me they were coming. As for warnings, my bike DOES have a bell, but often, after ringing the bell, hollering "bicycle passing" in Spanish, English, and another language, and slowing down to walking speed, pilgrims still seem startled when I finally pass them. And I never encountered more than two other cyclists together.
When the Camino Frances paths were originally chosen and signposted there were very few offroad-capable bikes. Cyclists mostly used road touring or racing bikes and therefore stayed on sealed roads. The huge growth in pilgrim numbers on the Frances has coincided with the rising popularity of mountain bikes. An unhappy combination.I imagine the use of the path as a cycle training trail probably started back when there were fewer pilgrims.
I walk quite fast/faster than most. When I come up behind other walkers I rest my poles and wait for a suitable opportunity to pass and say hello/buen camino beforehand to not startle other walkers (or the odd cyclist). It's just courtesy. Just because I'm going faster does not entitle me or anyone else to expect instantaneous movement from someone else already on the track.Here we go again with the bicyclist vs walking pilgrim feud. I guess what I find so unreasonable is that anybody could possibly think there's enough room on a narrow path for both foot pedestrians and bicyclists, and said bicyclists are approaching the foot pedestrians from the rear and the pedestrians do not know they are approaching. Even more when the blame is put on the walking pilgrim, who may be in conversation with other pilgrims and may be walking abreast across the path, which is what we humans do when we walk together. Throw in that the foot pilgrims may be older, slower reflexes and perhaps just not familiar with bicycles on a path. Pilgrims do come from all different backgrounds, not all expect bicycles to be approaching them from behind at 10-20 mph. Hope that's not news to anybody reading this, and please don't say that they should know. That's unrealistic.
I have actually had bicyclists on the Frances physically brush me, make contact with me as they went by and I saw one hit a pilgrim once on the stretch between Saint Jean and Roncesvalles. Fortunately he braked, stopped and the collision was minor, but he did strike the pilgrim from behind. I suppose I have observed at least a thousand pilgrims along different Camino routes and I gotta say, I never saw one walking pilgrim crash into another walking pilgrim. Heck, I've seen runners on the path and I never saw a runner collide with a pilgrim. I wonder why that is?
I guess it is a bitter pill to swallow, the fact that sections of the path that are narrow and popular, heavy with foot pilgrim traffic, simply cannot accommodate bicyclists as well when foot pilgrims are present. Instead of swallowing that pill I suppose the strategy is to shift the blame.
But it's not a race...it's a camino. Pause, breathe, enjoy and be patient .... till it's safe/reasonable to pass.I walk or cycle, both on caminos and on other routes.
Steering a tandem I am acutely aware of the extra weight and therefore inertia we carry, and so go carefully and slowly where we might encounter walkers, with a bellring from both of us, together with a friendly "hello/buen camino" warnings of our approach. I offer no defence for those cyclists racing in groups or who fail to sound a bell. Cyclists must take steps to avoid unnecessary conflicts.
However, I'm not sure that walkers who wear earphones and are lost in their music are taking proper responsibility for their own safety.
Most (though not all) camino paths are dual use. Some had established use from local cyclists before they were adopted and signed as pilgrim paths. Therefore cyclists should be prepared to slow down and sound their bells to pass pedestrian pilgrims, while pedestrians should expect to be alert for cyclists, who will often approach from behind them.
In our case, if walkers don't turn or otherwise acknowledge our bells and shouts on approach, we will slow to 4mph (6km/h, walking speed) in order to overtake, usually to the left of them. However, on several occasions walkers have suddenly stepped sideways into our path, oblivious to our presence - and it seems were absorbed in an audiobook or a tune through their headphones/ear buds (the latter being almost invisible from behind). Only alert steering and braking saved (admittedly low speed) collisions.
As well as being a cyclist and a walker, I am also a competitive trail runner. In most organised running events in the UK, earbuds or headphones are banned, for reasons of safety and out of consideration for other runners and marshalls. Are they safe and considerate on the Camino?
They are probably unwise given current numbers of cyclists and walkers. But I can't help feeling sad that it has now reached the point where walking the Camino is comparable to taking part in competitive sports events.As well as being a cyclist and a walker, I am also a competitive trail runner. In most organised running events in the UK, earbuds or headphones are banned, for reasons of safety and out of consideration for other runners and marshalls. Are they safe and considerate on the Camino?
"It" is a public path across Spain. For many of the cyclists, it is not a pilgrimage; it IS a race, or training for one. Therein lies the problem.But it's not a race...it's a camino.
Yep, but for me it was the pilgrim cyclists who lacked the courtesy or patience."It" is a public path across Spain. For many of the cyclists, it is not a pilgrimage; it IS a race, or training for one. Therein lies the problem.
It really is unrealistic to expect the walking pilgrims to not have earbuds on, or have their face buried in a device looking at an app while walking, oblivious to surroundings. Same with several engrossed in conversation walking abreast across the path and of course pilgrims deep in thought while walking. Unrealistic to expect pilgrims to walk defensively, and good Lord who would want to? What would be the point of walking the Camino if one were not able to walk in a relaxed manner. Like I said earlier, the foot pilgrims are not the problem here. Unreasonable to shift the blame.I walk or cycle, both on caminos and on other routes.
Steering a tandem I am acutely aware of the extra weight and therefore inertia we carry, and so go carefully and slowly where we might encounter walkers, with a bellring from both of us, together with a friendly "hello/buen camino" warnings of our approach. I offer no defence for those cyclists racing in groups or who fail to sound a bell. Cyclists must take steps to avoid unnecessary conflicts.
However, I'm not sure that walkers who wear earphones and are lost in their music are taking proper responsibility for their own safety.
Most (though not all) camino paths are dual use. Some had established use from local cyclists before they were adopted and signed as pilgrim paths. Therefore cyclists should be prepared to slow down and sound their bells to pass pedestrian pilgrims, while pedestrians should expect to be alert for cyclists, who will often approach from behind them.
In our case, if walkers don't turn or otherwise acknowledge our bells and shouts on approach, we will slow to 4mph (6km/h, walking speed) in order to overtake, usually to the left of them. However, on several occasions walkers have suddenly stepped sideways into our path, oblivious to our presence - and it seems were absorbed in an audiobook or a tune through their headphones/ear buds (the latter being almost invisible from behind). Only alert steering and braking saved (admittedly low speed) collisions.
As well as being a cyclist and a walker, I am also a competitive trail runner. In most organised running events in the UK, earbuds or headphones are banned, for reasons of safety and out of consideration for other runners and marshalls. Are they safe and considerate on the Camino?
Thank you for making this point. It is also useful for those of us who are engaged in helping prepare future pilgrims in our local communities to be reminded about these and other annoyances and frustrations, and include them in our discussions.These threads can also be a good head-up for those who haven’t walked. The camino is no different than our lives off-camino, with its annoyances, risks, accidents, and dangers. So when they say “the camino provides,” the direct object of that verb is not always going to be an unalloyed good.
I would be one of those pilgrims who accidentally step in front. Its because I'm conditioned to our driving conditions, where all passing is done on the right. Passing on the left is either bad form or illegal.In our case, if walkers don't turn or otherwise acknowledge our bells and shouts on approach, we will slow to 4mph (6km/h, walking speed) in order to overtake, usually to the left of them. However, on several occasions walkers have suddenly stepped sideways into our path, oblivious to our presence -
This is a good observation you make. In the US we drive on the right ride of the road and when I've been in other countries that drive on the left side, thankfully I've never been the one driving. When walkingI would be one of those pilgrims who accidentally step in front. Its because I'm conditioned to our driving conditions, where all passing is done on the right. Passing on the left is either bad form or illegal.
Its normal for me to step left to get out of the way.
In Spain of course I try not to get run over when crossing the road by accidentally looking the wrong way, and normally get it right when I make a deliberate and thought-through action. (Although it takes a while before seeing drivers sitting on the left stops weirding me out)
Its when I get a surprise that I sometimes step in the 'wrong' direction.
Remember that pilgrims do come from all over the world, and have different experiences.
We don't set out to be 'run over' but the occasional surprised mis-step happens.
Aïe. Now that I think about it: On a dedicated bicycle lane that can also be used by pedestrians and that is used by cyclists in only one direction, it does make sense for the pedestrian to walk on the left. We have these where I live but I don't recall having noticed such lanes on the Camino Francés. I tend to walk on the right, or I move to the right, when I am on a minor country (dirt or gravel) road or even a narrow trail that is also used by cyclists.some cyclists seemed to expect me to walk on the right side as the slower traffic, some that I'd walk on the left, as you do on the road? I still haven't figured it out, got one "marchez à la gauche, pu**** de me***!", but that was the only bad experience.
The trail isn't even as wide as a sidewalk. There is no way to step to the side while wearing a backpack. It's not wide enough to comfortably accommodate both a bike and a walker. And even more numbers coming at you at race speed with local riders.
It really is unrealistic to expect the walking pilgrims to not have earbuds on, or have their face buried in a device looking at an app while walking, oblivious to surroundings. Same with several engrossed in conversation walking abreast across the path and of course pilgrims deep in thought while walking.
My solution as a walking pilgrim is to always expect a bike or something else coming, same as when walking on the road. Walk with an open ear.
Yes, they should, but usually don't. Particularly those from local cycling clubs.Cyclists should stop and get off their bike then and wait / push until it's safely possible. I happily step off the trail into a bush to let a cyclist pass by,
I wear hearing aids in both ears - the result of a long career in heavy civil engineering - I do not wear them while out walking as the wind noise drives me crazy.I've found that people riding bicycles are, for the most part, courteous. Being a solo walker, I can usually hear them coming, and move further to the right or stop and watch them pass with an exchange of Buen Caminos.
As I commented at #43 I wear hearing aids in both ears - the result of a long career in heavy civil engineering - I do not wear them while out walking as the wind noise drives me crazy.These are the two attitudes available to walking pilgrims. Regardless of whether you think it’s reasonable behavior or not, it’s up to you to decide whether it’s worth the risk to walk four abreast, deeply engrossed in conversation, with earbuds on, or with your face buried in an app.
My point was people are people, and always will be with their sensible ways and non. It's not going to change no matter how much ranting, raving and finger pointing occurs. One has to keep that in mind when one bicycles trails filled with walking pilgrims.These are the two attitudes available to walking pilgrims. Regardless of whether you think it’s reasonable behavior or not, it’s up to you to decide whether it’s worth the risk to walk four abreast, deeply engrossed in conversation, with earbuds on, or with your face buried in an app.
Hmm, UK law would suggest that pedestrians have priority over all other users on the Queen's Highway. Try exercising that on the M25
even if the biker/walker is being stupid
I have to agree with you, especially when it comes to packs of riders expecting those on foot to move aside for them. There are the polite riders, but they were in the minority. I completed the Frances recently and know of a rider who was hit by a cyclist, ending their journey. Those on foot should not have to move for those on their bikesA complaining post by someone who gave up at Alto de Perdón included:
"- the bicycles are out of control. There were a few cyclists with shells on but there were far, far more local cycle clubs using the Camino trail as a training route. Why do none of these bikes have a horn or a bell to warn people they are coming from behind? The trail isn't even as wide as a sidewalk. There is no way to step to the side while wearing a backpack. It's not wide enough to comfortably accommodate both a bike and a walker. And even more numbers coming at you at race speed with local riders."
I've biked more than half of Francés and more than fifty kilometers on Vía de la Plata and walked maybe a quarter of Francés, so my perception is that this complaint is not completely fair. Some parts are narrow, but many are not. And when walking or biking slow, any cyclist who passed me warned me they were coming. As for warnings, my bike DOES have a bell, but often, after ringing the bell, hollering "bicycle passing" in Spanish, English, and another language, and slowing down to walking speed, pilgrims still seem startled when I finally pass them. And I never encountered more than two other cyclists together.
I have befriended quite a few cyclists on the Camino francés and yes, most of them are lovely and considerate. (The ones I talked to anywayA complaining post by someone who gave up at Alto de Perdón included:
"- the bicycles are out of control. There were a few cyclists with shells on but there were far, far more local cycle clubs using the Camino trail as a training route. Why do none of these bikes have a horn or a bell to warn people they are coming from behind? The trail isn't even as wide as a sidewalk. There is no way to step to the side while wearing a backpack. It's not wide enough to comfortably accommodate both a bike and a walker. And even more numbers coming at you at race speed with local riders."
I've biked more than half of Francés and more than fifty kilometers on Vía de la Plata and walked maybe a quarter of Francés, so my perception is that this complaint is not completely fair. Some parts are narrow, but many are not. And when walking or biking slow, any cyclist who passed me warned me they were coming. As for warnings, my bike DOES have a bell, but often, after ringing the bell, hollering "bicycle passing" in Spanish, English, and another language, and slowing down to walking speed, pilgrims still seem startled when I finally pass them. And I never encountered more than two other cyclists together.
If you look at the statistics for 2019 - the last pre-Covid year - you will see that the number of pilgrims who walked the Camino Frances is twenty times greater than those who chose the VdlP. And much of the VdlP follows wide farm tracks on relatively flat ground with excellent visibility for long distances. I walked the VdlP from Seville in January and February and encountered around 25 other pilgrims in total. And probably a similar number of cyclists. Over a journey of nearly 1000km. The two routes are hardly comparable.It's a fact of life, but seems to be only a real problem on the Francés. Is anyone on the VdlP complaining?
I couldn't agree more.If you look at the statistics for 2019 - the last pre-Covid year - you will see that the number of pilgrims who walked the Camino Frances is twenty times greater than those who chose the VdlP. And much of the VdlP follows wide farm tracks on relatively flat ground with excellent visibility for long distances. I walked the VdlP from Seville in January and February and encountered around 25 other pilgrims in total. And probably a similar number of cyclists. Over a journey of nearly 1000km. The two routes are hardly comparable.
I can only speak for my time on the Caminho do Tejo and Camino Portuguese this year. Yes, there were cyclists, mostly considerate when they passed me. It's hard to tell, but many after Porto were clearly pilgrims rather than locals out for a ride on their local tracks.Is anyone on the VdlP complaining?
Part of the Camino de Madrid is along the "Via pecuaria". Unfortunately, I didn’t photograph the board, but the priority instructions are clear: animals have priority. Then pedestrians. Then tillage machines. And finally cyclists and cars (also on paved sections). And that's what everyone sticks to. Especially if bull are walking calmly along the pathI'll stick to the more remote Caminos now.
A couple of things:Can we close this conversation it will go on and on and get no where. It's the same old white van and cycle scenario only pilgrims. Perhaps you need to write to the Spanish government to put signs on certain parts of the path saying no cyclists.
Yes, close it down I say before there's any more discussion about walking quieter caminos which is exactly my thought so as to avoid all those annoying peregrinos hogging the bike trail - haha - else the "quiet" caminos will become as crowded as the CF. Seriously though it's a good discussion, well I enjoy it, but it's all about me / me just like localism in surfing (I used to hate those boogie boarders) and Brits Abroad (we don't do it that way back home). Is it just another one of those first-world problems - I've paid all this money to go for a walk in a foreign country and now there are all these locals riding bikes, aghh?Can we close this conversation it will go on and on and get no where. It's the same old white van and cycle scenario only pilgrims. Perhaps you need to write to the Spanish government to put signs on certain parts of the path saying no cyclists.
Then the people that crash are doing it on purpose?nobody rides a bike "out of control"
Yes, close it down I say before there's any more discussion about walking quieter caminos which is exactly my thought so as to avoid all those annoying peregrinos hogging the bike trail - haha - else the "quiet" caminos will become as crowded as the CF. Seriously though it's a good discussion, well I enjoy it,
I don't need to I'm not complainingA couple of things:
a. yes, it is unrealistic to expect this, and many other subjects forum member vent about, to resolve anything. Its value is in the discussion, not in achieving any particular resolution. The cycle is much the same most years, and starts with someone getting excited about some aspect or other that they didn't like, and posting about that. Others will chime in, agreeing or disagreeing, proposing solutions for others to implement, suggesting ways for the local councils to spend money on pilgrims rather than the priorities of the local residents, etc, etc. This process might be cathartic, and people will let go of the topic in due course.
b. if it doesn't interest you, ignore it. While others are still interested in engaging in the discussion, politely and within the forum rules, let them, and do something you find more useful.
ps. if you think someone should write to the Spanish government, be that someone!
I think the problem is one of volume. The advent of e bikes has made it possible for many more people to ride the Camino. So now there are way more bikers on the path. So they become more intrusive. I do think that eventually you will need separate trails or the bikes will need to stick to the roads.I’ve resisted closing this thread because, as I said earlier, I think it’s a good heads up for walking pilgrims. Be aware that there are many cyclists on certain days and on certain parts of some of the heavily traveled caminos. And some percentage of them will be careless or rude. Walking pilgrims have been injured by cyclists.
But I totally agree that arguing the merits of the two sides is pointless. So long as the thread stays on the side of pointing out experiences, venting, and expressing hope for improved conduct on the part of both walkers and bicyclists, I think it should stay open. It would be very nice to finally see one thread about cyclists die on its own without being closed because of caustic sniping. That’s what I’m hoping for, let’s see.
I can understand your perspective. My sister has been hit by a bike and we both have had close calls at other times, on and off the Camino. Even when there are parrallel paths, still some cyclists take the one heavily traveled by walkers? However, there are also many, many polite cyclists, on the trail, who do slow down, warn you mostly verbally and do not put walkers in danger. One thing that might help is signage, to keep bikes separated off paths are too narrow on the CF.My 2-cents worth? I'm a big guy, and hard to miss. I pay attention to my surroundings, and never walk with anything in my ears.... But over the course of many pilgrimages, over many years, on many different Camino routes, I've been knocked down by cyclists more than once, and repeatedly frightened/angered by them. I have zero sympathy for them! And do not think of them as fellow peregrinos.
Sorry. But pax.
Today between Sarria and Portomarin there was a sign that directed walkers to the right on a gravel path and cyclists to the left on the pavement. I saw a cyclist slow down, look at the sign, and proceed to ride on the walking path.I can understand your perspective. My sister has been hit by a bike and we both have had close calls at other times, on and off the Camino. Even when there are parrallel paths, still some cyclists take the one heavily traveled by walkers? However, there are also many, many polite cyclists, on the trail, who do slow down, warn you mostly verbally and do not put walkers in danger. One thing that might help is signage, to keep bikes separated off paths are too narrow on the CF.
Today between Sarria and Portomarin there was a sign that directed walkers to the right on a gravel path and cyclists to the left on the pavement. I saw a cyclist slow down, look at the sign, and proceed to ride on the walking path.
Yes,I know! And there is need for more than signage. But some riders do follow the signs, and there are places that have no need signage and should.Today between Sarria and Portomarin there was a sign that directed walkers to the right on a gravel path and cyclists to the left on the pavement. I saw a cyclist slow down, look at the sign, and proceed to ride on the walking path.
On my 2021 and 2022 walks (CF, CI) it seemed to me that conventional cyclists numbers were way up....I think the problem is one of volume. The advent of e bikes has made it possible for many more people to ride the Camino. So now there are way more bikers on the path.
That’s a great example of how the norms of the place where you’re living dictate behavior that would be lunacy in other places. Where I live, the law is that cars must stop when pedestrians are in a zebra-crossing, but I would never dream of stepping out on a busy street with the hope that the car will stop. I will be legally right but dead or maimed. In Spain, with the same laws but different norms, cars actually do stop! I haven’t gotten so brave as to test the theory when a car is nearby, but I do frequently put one foot in the street and then wait to see if the car stops. It inevitably does. I wonder if any surveys of pilgrims on the camino in areas where cyclists are prevalent have been done to determine whether the pilgrims walking 4 abreast, with earbuds, etc etc are non-Spaniard? Do Spaniards know and follow a different set of unspoken rules? We have very little Spanish participation here, but it would be interesting to get their perspective.It could be a cultural thing, have you noticed how the Spanish at pedestrian crossings will walk across without looking - frightens me - expecting all traffic to see them & stop?
Do Spaniards know and follow a different set of unspoken rules? We have very little Spanish participation here, but it would be interesting to get their perspective.
I think this is a very good point. One of my general observations is that those of us from countries where we drive on the left side of the road tend to do the opposite of those that drive on the right. I suspect it has been ingrained into us to keep to the left and pass on the right when we are driving and cycling. This extends to walking as well if it is on paths, even when shared with cyclists, although we will walk facing the traffic (mostly!) on roads. When I visit Europe or the US, the opposite generally happens, reflecting their driving habits. Crowded towns and cities seem to be the exception, where people just try and find an open space ahead to move into.I am not Spanish so I can not give a Spanish perspective. But it made my wonder whether I follow some kind of set of unwritten rules myself while walking. So far I can't tell, as one often follows unwritten rules unconsciously
Very Zen. It is the reaction that keeps you sufferinng.They may be rude, but they are a product of what came before--no more and no less. Just as bad/poor soil produces a poor plant, so does a bad/poor life experience. Perhaps the key is not the rude behavior happening but how one responds to it. Responding to it negatively does not affect the rude bicyclist one iota, but does it affect the person responding negatively? What do I know, but I suspect it does. And I suspect it does not affect this person in a positive vein. At the same time, it is so hard to not react.
Life . . . wish it was more simple than it is, but what do I know?
In my opinion, many of the ebikes on The Camino are not pedelec-class. The current generation of ebikes can attain 30mph.Actually, ebikes - at least the ones that are legal in Europe (aka pedelecs) - don't go any faster than regular bicycles. Granted, you may climb more easily and negate headwinds to a certain extent, but that's it. I actually go faster on my gravel bike than on my ebike.
S - Pedelecs are not that common (approx 2% of sales in Germany) being classified as motorcycles.
Where I do agree is that it gives a false sense of confidence and gets people onto trails they shouldn't be on. On the roads, it makes no difference.
They are doing that because that is what pilgrims do on a foot path. They walk, they talk to each other. Nobody, I repeat nobody walks in a group and sets themselves up in precise defensive files in preparation for possible bicycles approaching from behind, and never will.I ride the road when the path is narrow and/or crowded. I also am very curtious and announce myself and ring the bell etc and so on. I have had no issues but do get frustrated when their are 5 walkers side by side and blocking all the road even after I’ve tried to do the right thing. I am slow and I’ve had minimal issue
Well I have really had no issue and whether it’s a bike or a horse we all have the right to be their w loving kindness. It’s always about the individual. There are conscious people everywhere as well as unconscious. PeaceThey are doing that because that is what pilgrims do on a foot path. They walk, they talk to each other. Nobody, I repeat nobody walks in a group and sets themselves up in precise defensive files in preparation for possible bicycles approaching from behind, and never will.
Nothing loving or kind about having 200+ pounds of bicycle and bicyclist come crashing into one's backside at 15 mph or so on a Camino path. Not peaceful either.Well I have really had no issue and whether it’s a bike or a horse we all have the right to be their w loving kindness. It’s always about the individual. There are conscious people everywhere as well as unconscious. Peace
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