BryanandJoan
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2016
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Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.
Perhaps you might simply and spontaneously pray whatever is on your heart at the time.Joan and I have looked at several forums plus read blogs and watched hours of 'U'tubes and cannot for the life of us find this prayer. But we have seen several bits and it looks very appropriate.
Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.
Stats form the pilgrim office combine religious with spiritual reasons for walking the Camino. Would be nice to,have these separated, although the cathedral may not like what it finds out.You could be wrong about that Whariwharangi. Reading the statistics from last year it's a fair bet that around 50000 pilgrims, walking with a religious pilgrimage motive, paused at Cruz de Ferro. Could be that plenty of them, like me, had something to pray about. Over the years, there must have been millions of prayers muttered privately or otherwise at this particular "pile". Did you notice that there is a cross on top of the post?
In my book, the place qualifies.
Stats form the pilgrim office combine religious with spiritual reasons for walking the Camino. Would be nice to,have these separated, although the cathedral may not like what it finds out.
I doubt the pilgrim's office would find anything in differentiated stats for religious versus spiritual that would surprise it (or give it the least bit of insecurity). It's no secret that many who walk the Camino for "spiritual" reasons have little regard for the Church (although the Communion lines at the Pilgrim's Mass tell a different story).Stats form the pilgrim office combine religious with spiritual reasons for walking the Camino. Would be nice to,have these separated, although the cathedral may not like what it finds out.
Koilife, we may be straying into territory that has been much discussed on the forum in the past.I doubt the pilgrim's office would find anything in differentiated stats for religious versus spiritual that would surprise it (or give it the least bit of insecurity). It's no secret that many who walk the Camino for "spiritual" reasons have little regard for the Church (although the Communion lines at the Pilgrim's Mass tell a different story).
You could be wrong about that Whariwharangi. Reading the statistics from last year it's a fair bet that around 50000 pilgrims, walking with a religious pilgrimage motive, paused at Cruz de Ferro. Could be that plenty of them, like me, had something to pray about. Over the years, there must have been millions of prayers muttered privately or otherwise at this particular "pile". Did you notice that there is a cross on top of the post?
In my book, the place qualifies.
Yeah, I could be wrong about that.
... for some its a miracle they made it up the hill ... a great excuse for kneeling down and catching ones breath ... but otherwise ... there are lots of places to kneel and pray on the camino. Too I would think that for some its the whole point of making a camino.
Fair enough, Whariwharangi!
Ah, the Cruz de Ferro and as @Kathar1na explaines just a few days tje stones from Santiago being dropped there "by ignorance". If I understood people confused the terminology "out of the area of the village of Competellina" with " fI looked at their stats for last year, and they DO make a distinction between "religioso, 38%", and "religioso, y otros 54%". I can't recall specifically what is on the form when you tick the boxes. Perhaps the 38% does indeed include those who might prefer to say that they have a "spiritual" motive, and are not provide with that sole choice. Nevertheless, whatever the actual numbers, Cruz de Ferro, surely has a religious significance to many pilgrims, pile or no.
Isn't this prayer directly taken from the script of "The Way"? Maybe it does have an older origin, I don't know.I think this or something very similar may be the one you have in mind:
"Lord, may this stone, a symbol of our efforts on pilgrimage that I lay at the foot of the Cross of the Savior, one day be the balance in favor of our good deeds when the deeds of our lives are judged. Let it be so. Amen."
Gently, amigos.
The forum rules do not allow discussion of religion. It also does not allow denigration of the religion of others including mockery.
The OP asked a specific question....if you can assist with an thoughtful answer.. it would be welcome. Mocking his question is not welcome.
Thanks for understanding.
I've spent some time on the web to find sources that are older than 1986 but have not yet found them. If anyone knows more please let me know. At the moment I think the origin is a modern Spanish prayer, perhaps inspired by the recently created romeria (local pilgrimage) to the chapel and the Spanish traditions connected with San Andrés de Teixido but this is speculation on my part. The romeria is organised by the Centro Galicia en Ponferrada.Isn't this prayer directly taken from the script of "The Way"? Maybe it does have an older origin, I don't know.
Hi there. 'To swing a cat'. Comes from the old pirate days when they used the 'cat o nine tails' for punishment, if they could swing the whip then there was enough room. Buen camino I'm starting in May 26 from SJPDP. I think nerves are setting in !!!!I just looked up the 'swing a cat' idiom.
Apparently, mid 1980's someone started changing the usage to 'swing a dead cat'. I can only guess this results from some misguided sense of political correctness.
I forget the reason I added this ... it has some bearing on the discussion but I can't now make the connection.
Hahaha. I have no ideaOK, I get that, but ..... where are we with this?
OK, I get that, but ..... where are we with this?
Way back in another century I spent part of one summer as the Abbey guide on Iona. Now I live near St Davids. I understand what you mean by 'thin'. I am wondering why you so specifically exclude Lindisfarne from the list?I've visited a number of 'thin' places in the UK. Iona springs to mind (but not Lindisfarne) and a theological college in Derbyshire called Cliff College. St Davids in S. Wales is like that too. Hoping to find some equally thin Spanish places.
Hi Angus here , what I did to get the words to the prayer was put subtitles up while watching the Way. As far as what reaching this pile of gravel it felt like it meant something to me ,possibly another marker on the journey to Santiago or if it's not for you,as the song says " walk on bye".Joan and I have looked at several forums plus read blogs and watched hours of 'U'tubes and cannot for the life of us find this prayer. But we have seen several bits and it looks very appropriate.
Lord, that this stone, symbol of the effort of my pilgrimage, which threw the foot of the Cross rescuer, is that, come the moment when the acts of my life judge, serve to tilt the balance in favor of my good works . So be it.Here is a Spanish version of the prayer associated with the Cruz de Ferro/Hierro. Perhaps one of the few residents of Spain who are on this forum can shed some light on its origin?
Señor, que esta piedra, símbolo del esfuerzo de mi peregrinación, que arrojo al pie de la Cruz salvadora, sea la que, llegado el instante en que se juzguen los actos de mi vida, sirva para inclinar la balanza a favor de mis buenas obras. Así sea.
Not bad for Google!Lord, that this stone, symbol of the effort of my pilgrimage, which threw the foot of the Cross rescuer, is that, come the moment when the acts of my life judge, serve to tilt the balance in favor of my good works . So be it.
Google translate
this stone, [...], which threw the foot of the Cross rescuer
Too commercialised. I was really dissappointed. The North East is a beautiful part of the world and the views from Lindisfarne were spectacular, but the place itself did nothing for me. Perhaps it was me?Way back in another century I spent part of one summer as the Abbey guide on Iona. Now I live near St Davids. I understand what you mean by 'thin'. I am wondering why you so specifically exclude Lindisfarne from the list?
I dont know if its 'holy' or not. I found it hard to pray with the holiday atmosphere around it. Coach tours, motorhomes and yelling cyclists standing on the heap waving their cycles in the air while a queue formed to do the same. It was more like a queue for a roller coaster at DisneyWorld. I ate my lunch, left a stone I had carried for a friend then headed off down the path where I prayed as I walked. My prayers turned to foul language as said cyclists came down the path at high speed screaming and yelling and forcing me off the path which as you all know is just a couple of feet away from a road they could have used. Then on top of everything, I started feeling bad for losing my temper. It was not the spiritual experience for me that others claim. I walked on and never looked backThere is no such prayer.
Cruz de Ferro is a cairn that marks the height of the camino and in particular the height of the pass between Astorga and Ponferrada.
Its not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.
Very nice!Not bad for Google!
Human translate: Lord, please let this stone, symbol of my efforts on my pilgrimage, that I throw at the foot of the Saving Cross, be what, at the time when my actions in life are juged, serves to move the scale infavour of my good deeds.
Time to start carrying much larger stones!
At the site, I agree yet the night before & walking that day & ever since it was if walking in the light again. It just shows how personal that journey is.I dont know if its 'holy' or not. I found it hard to pray with the holiday atmosphere around it. Coach tours, motorhomes and yelling cyclists standing on the heap waving their cycles in the air while a queue formed to do the same. It was more like a queue for a roller coaster at DisneyWorld. I ate my lunch, left a stone I had carried for a friend then headed off down the path where I prayed as I walked. My prayers turned to foul language as said cyclists came down the path at high speed screaming and yelling and forcing me off the path which as you all know is just a couple of feet away from a road they could have used. Then on top of everything, I started feeling bad for losing my temper. It was not the spiritual experience for me that others claim. I walked on and never looked back
Exactly how I felt, you just said it better. An Anglican priest who was also a US Army chaplain taught me about St Ignatius and his breath prayer and that was more meaningful than my experience at the Cruz. I still use the technique at homeAt the site, I agree yet the night before & walking that day & ever since it was if walking in the light again. It just shows how personal that journey is.
I don't know how common your experience of Cruz has been for other pilgrims. Your vivid description of the circus atmosphere in your previous post makes me realise how very fortunate I must have been on my 2 past encounters with that place. I would certainly have felt the same way in those circumstances, after the anticipation and sheer effort involved in reaching it. I have already selected a stone for my third visit which I fervently hope will not be ruined as yours was.Exactly how I felt, you just said it better. An Anglican priest who was also a US Army chaplain taught me about St Ignatius and his breath prayer and that was more meaningful than my experience at the Cruz. I still use the technique at home
I think this or something very similar may be the one you have in mind:
"Lord, may this stone, a symbol of our efforts on pilgrimage that I lay at the foot of the Cross of the Savior, one day be the balance in favor of our good deeds when the deeds of our lives are judged. Let it be so. Amen."
So do you know when the Cruz de Ferro became a holy site that should be regarded as such by everyone? Because even now, it does not seem to be common knowledge and it certainly wasn't a few decades ago. Not everyone has seen "The Way" and not everyone frequents this forum. If I would go by just two of the very popular guidebooks I have - one from England, the other one from France - I would not have the faintest idea of the emotions and spirituality and religiosity that some people associate with the Cruz de Ferro.A holy site and the rituals associated with it (however 'tasteful' or 'tatty') evolve in response to the needs of the community it serves over a long or indeed relatively short timespan. It also seems a holy site can, as in the case of the Cruz de Ferro and I suspect many other places, in a tatty, democratic, shambolically cumulative process be created (or recognised, selected, discovered, rediscovered etc)
Thus, as ever, pilgrims make it hallow by the hallowing.
Thankyou for this Grayland....I fully agree.Gently, amigos.
The forum rules do not allow discussion of religion. It also does not allow denigration of the religion of others including mockery.
The OP asked a specific question....if you can assist with an thoughtful answer.. it would be welcome. Mocking his question is not welcome.
Thanks for understanding.
The Holy Spirit seems to find us when appropriate, & when our hearts are open. So many faiths walk the Camino I believe there is a reason for that. The walk is a very good education in faith.I find this conversation fascinating as a theologian and Priest. I think the rise in the last 30 years of the creating of shrines very interesting, especially at the site of accidents, in the apparel and tattoos of people, what people now place in graveyards, and even a resurgence of religious artifacts outside of a specifically Roman Catholic culture, where it has always been common. This phenomena speaks of faith moving away from a very textual focus, (usually held by Protestants) to a more symbolic and nuanced grouping of conceptions which is very postmodern.
Theologically I would differ greatly from this prayer as I don't think that my effort can in any way add to the substitutionary work of Christ for me on the Cross. I believe in a future judgement where faith in Christ alone will be my justification, as it is he who has paid the price for my sins. I could walk a thousand caminos and it would never atone for my sins. So I probably won't pray this prayer but as with many sites I will stop to pray and lay down any burdens there...I make no judgment of others.....
However the Cruz de Ferro is a pre Christian site if my research is correct... I find it interesting, in my study of Celtic Christianity, Cruz de Ferro as with Lindisfarne, Iona, St David's and so many other places such as the Skelligs in Ireland, Celtic Christians founded their Holy "thin places" on top of existing Holy sites ... This is why in many English church yards we have ancient Yew trees and very often Altars in ancient churches will be placed over the sites of pagan sacrifice. Most Celtic crosses carry some form of Earth religion symbols on their bases and the Celtic cross shows the evolution of faith that is taking place in people lives around them. The crosses on Iona are fascinating in this regard.
I start my pilgrimage on Wednesday this week and will be carrying a stone I picked up on St Columba's beach on Iona to lay at the foot of the Cross as a symbol of thanksgiving for my calling to the priesthood 25 years ago. I hope it will indeed be a "thin place" ... however my deeper prayer is that through this Camino I will become a "thin place" where Christ in me is the hope of glory... Buen Camino et Pax et Bonum
Rule #2 in full: No discussions on religion, bull fights, sports and politics. These topics "always" end in a fight, so let's not go there. It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given.I fully agree.
I think this prayer was written for the movie The Way? I found an old (2004) post here http://eng.ultreia.info/2004/02/cross-of-iron.html about a religious ritual around the Cruz de Ferro and this prayer isn't mentioned. As others have suggested, the right prayer is simply the one that comes from your heart. Buen Camino, SY
So do you know when the Cruz de Ferro became a holy site that should be regarded as such by everyone? Because even now, it does not seem to be common knowledge and it certainly wasn't a few decades ago. Not everyone has seen "The Way" and not everyone frequents this forum. If I would go by just two of the very popular guidebooks I have - one from England, the other one from France - I would not have the faintest idea of the emotions and spirituality and religiosity that some people associate with the Cruz de Ferro.
That is what it "has become" - but from what I have read that was not its original purpose. The cross was erected (I believe) as a beacon for those completing the Camino. But I do agree about the garbage that is being left there. So my small prayer - please only leave a small stone; no used bras; not half empty bottle of wine; no empty cigarette packets; oh and PLEASE do not tie something around the post supporting the Cross. Buen CaminoIts not a holy shrine ... its a pile of gravel and detritus left by other pilgrims; an embarrassment and a sin against the earth.
Thank you for this reply, very interesting. I knew about the tradition of leaving a stone on a grave only from Jewish cemeteries.leaving stones on structures, gravestones, Saints 'beds' (or Leacht in Irish), altars, adding them to cairns or using them to mark/trace crosses on larger stones or structures are a regular part of pilgrimage practice at local and national pilgrimage sites in Ireland. Bringing a stone back from someones grave or leaving a stone on top of a gravestone are also common practices, at least in the part of Kerry I'm from
In the educational spirit - and because as a qualified but non-practicing schoolteacher I am by nature a pompous pedant- I congratulate you on the clarity of your writing and vocabulary. One suggestion: I think you may have intended to say "wayside" (near the road) rather than "wayward" (deviant, delinquent, liable to misbehaviour) .
Thank you for this reply, very interesting. I knew about the tradition of leaving a stone on a grave only from Jewish cemeteries………..I see that you are walking or planning to walk from Nuremberg where you may see some of the wayside shrines (stone columns) typical for the area of Franconia. They date from the middle ages, so are not as ancient as in Ireland…….... I also learnt the word "psychopomp" while reading up on the subject ... this is an educational thread.
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