They've Paved Paradise ...

[markss]

to put up a parking lot. So the song goes.

Particularly throughout 2010, much of the Camino Frances along what were not very long ago dirt trails has now been paved. A much greater percentage of the trail is now tarmac. Have any recent returning pilgrims noticed this from their Caminos past?

This is particularly true of many of the steeper treks up and down the hillsides. I suppose that this is either bad or good depending on one's point of view. It's bad in that it seems to take away some of the "oneness" with the land and challenge of the Camino. It might also lend to increased commercialization. It's good in that it made the Camino significantly easier to walk, thus making it more accessable to those who otherwise might have difficulty in rougher terrain. Why shouldn't as many people as is possible have an opportunity to experience the Camino!

Responses to questions, particurly relating to equipment may no longer be relevant as the conditions and experiences on which they were based have changed or no longer exist. These may include hiking boots vs. trail runners; walking in five-fingers; poles - yes or no; etc.

Now if they put up a pink hotel that is going to be real trouble.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got till it's gone

 

[LTfit]

ah Joni Mitchell, talk about a trip down memory lane...just saw her 1970 version on youtube (sorry for the digression).

Since I walked the Francés in 2010 I can not reflect on how it was in previous years. What I do most vividly remember was a section on the Camino that had indeed been paved. It was quite out of place - huge slabs of pinkish concrete. I remember quite vividly thinking that it was like walking down the yellow-brick road from the Wizard of Oz. Very strange.

 

[Steve.Belfast]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Br. David]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Perfect! :wink:

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The people who are paving the camino are doing it so more people can achieve the camino with less injury and effort. They want to be helpful, or stimulate more free-spending lightweight tourists, maybe? Some feel making things easier is wrong, a camino is supposed to mean suffering and challenge!

I walked in 2001 and again in 2010. Parts of the camino were paved, other parts were completely re-routed, and still more were just built-up and plasticized beyond recognition. I understand why parts of the sheer drop from Roncesvalles to Zubiri were paved -- they were eroding badly in 2001, and mud was ankle-deep toward the bottom. Now conditions are much more sane and safe. It is not so beautiful now, but WTH. I was also told the stretch from Bercianos del Real Camino to El Burgo Ranero was paved so people in wheelchairs could get a taste of the camino. These are good developments.

When the Camino goes out of fashion again in a few decades, all that concrete will split and spall and fall away back to dirt again. The sections of path buried under industrial parks will simply re-route themselves. All these "improvements" will be forgotten. But a few people every year are going to walk that camino still. It´s been here for a thousand years or more. It will survive all these efforts to sanitize and sanctify and commodify it, I am sure.

 

[Caminando]

When the Camino goes out of fashion again in a few decades, all that concrete will split and spall and fall away back to dirt again. The sections of path buried under industrial parks will simply re-route themselves. All these "improvements" will be forgotten. But a few people every year are going to walk that camino still. It´s been here for a thousand years or more. It will survive all these efforts to sanitize and sanctify and commodify it, I am sure.

Hallelulah....here is a genetic, or if you prefer, historical view of camino which I share.

Or, you could say,

'Remember man, that you are dust, and into dust you shall return'.

 

[Telluridewalker]

When I walked in 1988 I do not remember any paving except for city sidewalks and the roadside stretches (i.e. no paved walkways, bike paths, etc.). As far as pilgrim safety goes, my knees love a dirt walkway (even a muddy one) much more than a concrete path. However, at some point when traffic numbers hit a certain level, paving prevents severe erosion and eliminates maintenance.

I certainly hope they are not paving over the old sections of Roman road- those were some of my favorite stretches.

 

[Caminando]

Yes TW, nor do I remember any such paved stretches 3 years after you.

And yes, a paved part seems easier, but at the end of the day is more tiring, as it is so unyielding.

What would a pilgrim of a thousand years ago have said, I wonder. Or a thousand years ahead.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

When trying to minimize the impact of a number of walking humans, you can have each one walk a different path so there is no promotion of erosion, or have them all walk the same path, and then control the erosion. Only the latter option is available for the Camino, sometimes unfortunately. Brierley calls the improved pathways "soul-less sendai," a reasonably apt descriptor. The mud hill after Puente la Reina has been improved with paving. Other spots, maybe not so much. The highways have paved over most of the old Roman roads, so the remaining stretches seem to be protected. On the Camino Aragones, Roman road had been taken over by Mother Nature in most stretches, but the asphalt truck has not been rolled in.

 

[grayland]

There was a marked and noticeable difference between 2009 and 2010. Some of the newly paved sections are really a downgrade in my opinion. It is always peaceful to get back on the good old dirt paths. Now....the rocks on the meseta could be a little smaller.

 

[Br. David]

I know this might be at odds - it is only a personal thing, just me ... but for me there is both a spiritual and a romantic aspect to the Camino, being there is somehow trying to connect with that romantic (yes, I know the reality) and spiritual past.
Though hard at times that clambering along unmade paths, paths retaining the invisible imprints of millions of past pilgrims is what does it for me. Apart from the descents into modern towns there are long long sections where the modern world just drops away and it seems to become just you and the universe. A part of that aspect for me would be no ashpalt, anywhere, ever.

You cannot wear out the rock walked upon, it just changes shape from the footprints.

To asphalt the Camino is aimed at making it more 'efficient', 'user friendly' - I don't want it to be efficient or user-friendly, I want it to be rough, untamed, difficult, thirsty, aching, beautiful, wild, sometimes frightening, lonely, remote - romantic.

You might as well put an asphalt lined conveyor belt that goes all the way. Safer, cleaner, less arduous, more efficient - but then again, you might as well walk along your local main road. We don't at home in the UK, when we go for a long walk we walk along unimproved footpaths - in the countryside, away from all of that.

Can't we just have strap-on ashpalt galoshes for those who want ashpalt?

Or am I missing the point? :|

 

[Caminando]

I know this might be at odds - it is only a personal thing, just me ...

Or am I missing the point? :|

Thanks Davey,

A worthwhile comment.

No need to be so hesitant, so conditional; please say what you want without fear, favour or apology. Of course it is a "personal thing", I agree; that's why you're posting, that's why we all post. Don't worry or be anguished about being at "odds"; that's what makes the world go round - that you think your own thoughts. I for one don't want to read you repeating the thoughts of others. Vive la difference.

We all benefit from each others thoughts don't we?

 

[markss]

Yes Br. Dave. I'm in agreement with you and think you are right on point.

For me personally it is sad to see. However I look for justification wanting to think that it is to make the Camino available to more people. When the hotels start popping up we'll know it was motivated more my commerce than spirituality.

 

[Br. David]

many times bitten, many times shy :wink:

mind you, a conveyor belt .. leaning back in a deep inflatable armchair, sipping a glass of Rioja, peeling grapes and kissing one's hand to the peasants working in the hot and dusty fields as you pass ... it has its attractions ...... :lol:

 

[Rebekah Scott]

as for commerce/spirituality...
Every year fewer and fewer albergues are offering shelter on a "donativo" basis. Every year there are fewer and fewer volunteers willing to give two weeks to be hospitaleros, even in the dozen or so traditional refugios that remain. Even as more people use the caminos, fewer are giving anything unless an actual charge is levied. They only pay if they are made to (i.e. "donativo" = "free.")

Dozens of former pilgrims sign up for the hospitalero training sessions, but fewer than half ever step up and serve even a single term. It seems the trainings are being used as "pilgrim reunions," or fun weekend workshops for folks who want a "camino fix" or a Spanish-flavored self-help boost.

The Commerce people are winning, in part because pilgrims do not value the tradition of freely giving as well as freely taking.

IMHO.
Reb

 

[Caminando]

Reb has an overview which I dont have, so it's useful to read this. I'm disappointed that fewer refuges offer donativo, and that fewer pilgs are open to give.* I wasn't aware of this situation, blissfully imagining a better culture. I have moaned about creeping commerce and its effects before and felt like I was in a crowd of one. It seems that many on the forum are relaxed about Camino Commerce, or are unaware of how corrosive it can be, because they grew up with it.

But perhaps it's only the CF, I really don't know, and to strike a positive note, on other pilgrim routes in Spain I found it to be better. And on a recent French way, all pilgs donated freely, even tho' there was a clear notice in three languages saying they were welcome to give as little or as much as they could; I know that all donated.

Better to end on the positive theme here - it's not so bleak everywhere. Mind you, things can change!

Surprised to read of the hosps who train and don't serve - it costs a lot to travel to the training place for one thing and anyway why bother if folk dont really want to serve. There are absolutely no medals for being an hosp - the contrary! Well there are rewards, but they're invisible. Seems like a helluva lot of hassle for nothing, to train and not serve.

* a problem with donations is , as we know, that those who give are lumped in with those who don't; there's no incentive other than integrity to give. There's actually a disincentive - all are tarred with the same anonymous brush. Perhaps even a simple donation envelope issued on arrival which the pilg could write his/her name on (or blank, which the giver can sign if they wished )would make a difference. Then the freeloader would feel less anonymous. The skint person (who should certainly be able to stay) can give what he/she can, or not , in the envelope.

I believe that anonymity is how nongiving is enabled. ....Hmmm, unless someone knows a snag with this, maybe it's worth a try on the now deeply flawed CF? It's not needed on at least one French route, nor on the CM, and others, but would do absolutely no harm.

Don't know really; better people than I have doubtless thought about all this.

 

[renegadepilgrim]

Dozens of former pilgrims sign up for the hospitalero training sessions, but fewer than half ever step up and serve even a single term. It seems the trainings are being used as "pilgrim reunions," or fun weekend workshops for folks who want a "camino fix" or a Spanish-flavored self-help boost.

Do you find this to be the case with Americans training in America, or is this true of Europeans training in Europe? I can see why people in the US or Canada go through the training and then due to the high cost of getting to Spain, might not be able to serve right away. I've been closely monitoring airfare for my trip to Spain in October and am planning to buy my ticket this coming week. It's expensive to travel to Spain for North Americans, add to that our limited amount of vacation (I'm taking three weeks to serve as hospitalera and then have a few days in Madrid afterwards) and I can see why there aren't a lot of us able to serve. I am sure many are willing, but the cost of time and money can be a hindrance. I'm essentially spending about $1800 to use vacation time to volunteer. I'm not complaining. I wish I could go longer. I know that on more than one occasion on my camino last year, I had Europeans tell me to quit, that I could always come back and finish the camino. I had to firmly remind them that being from across the "pond", no, I don't have the luxury or the bank account to come back whenever I want!

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but this is an interesting observation. I know that a there were a few in my training group and I only know of three so far that have either served or are planning to serve as hospitaleros.

 

[marthac]

I just looked back on the group photo from the hospitalero training I attended in Santa Fe in 2009. Don't know if it is representative, but 9 out of 12 of us have served as hospitaleros, 2 have become hospitalero trainers and another 4 worked very hard to put on a hospitalero training in Washington State. A successful reunion experience!

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Martha, your group are shining stars!
My blanket statement about people who train and then do not serve is drawn from not just North America, but from hospitalero training people in Europe and Brazil and yes, even Spain. There are always wonderful exceptions, people who give us hope!

That is why I like to take the long view -- the camino is going to outlast all of us: good, bad, freeloaders and saints and angels and devils. We can each only do our part. If we can be bothered.

Reb.

 

[Maybeth]

On a positive note to Rebekkah, there are 16 Canadian trained hospitaleros serving on the Camino this year. That is a lot of time, money and commitment. Due to the costs of travel not everyone who trains in a given year is able to go that year. The Canadian trainers could give some hard facts about the percentage of those trained who actually serve. I am aware that some people have served several times.
In my case, I walked the Camino from SJPP to Finnisterre in 2003. I took the training in fall 2007 and I planned to return in spring 2008, and was booked to serve as hospitalera. However, due to health issues and the demands of work, I was unable to go as planned. So that put me in your "attended but did not serve" category.
Now, in 2011, I took the training again to update my skills and will be heading to re-walk the Camino in Sept-Oct and to serve in Najera in Oct. That will put me in your other category of "attended and served".
I am looking forward to it very much, despite all the discouraging talk of bedbugs and paving paradise.

 

[trombaananda]

Hello,
I am walking my first Camino this September(7th) starting in Astorga.After reading all about this paving I feel a little less excited as I was expecting a spiritual adventure in the wilderness/country not a walk down a pave road.I am not a young man(I am 65) but I had planned on accepting the challenges of the terrain and have the proper gear but after reading your posts it sounds like a pair of shorts,a tee shirt and flip flops are all that I need,I have those as I am coming from Florida but the old guy here was looking for a little adventure and walking meditation........................"Peace in every step".Now I am not so sure!
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Peace,
Trombaananda
PEACE IN MY HEART
PEACE IN MY SOUL
I RELEASE AND I LET GO
NO MORE ANGER, ANXIETY OR FEAR
ONENESS NOW IS CRYSTAL CLEAR
COMPASSION AND FORGIVENESS BEGINS WITH YOU AND ME
COCREATING A UNIVERSAL HARMONY
PEACE IN OUR HEARTS
PEACE IN OUR SOULS WE RELEASE AND WE LET GO
AND SO IT IS
NAMASTE!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

John Brierley breaks down the Astorga to Santiago portion as:
54% path
39% quiet road
7% main road (1/4 of it on the last day)

 

[grayland]

Hello,
I am walking my first Camino this September(7th) starting in Astorga.After reading all about this paving I feel a little less excited as I was expecting a spiritual adventure in the wilderness/country not a walk down a pave road.I am not a young man(I am 65) but I had planned on accepting the challenges of the terrain and have the proper gear but after reading your posts it sounds like a pair of shorts,a tee shirt and flip flops are all that I need,I have those as I am coming from Florida but the old guy here was looking for a little adventure and walking meditation........................"Peace in every step".Now I am not so sure!
!

I am not sure what exactly you have been concentrating on in reading the forum. There are indeed paved roads..usually back country roads...but they are not the main route.
You may be in for a very rough surprise if you turn up in a "pair of shorts, a tee shirt and flip flops".
The Camino is not a walk in the park and should not be taken lightly by anyone. It really is a demanding and stressful endeavor. You will spend the majority of your time walking on paths and thru small villages. Many of the people here are older than you so you won't be the "old man".
Have a look at this great video (view all 5 segments) to get a feel of what it is really like.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... A93F2F18FF

 

[markss]

"I am walking my first Camino this September(7th) starting in Astorga.After reading all about this paving I feel a little less excited as I was expecting a spiritual adventure in the wilderness/country not a walk down a pave road."

Although you will not find wilderness akin to the Appalacian Trail or trails of the western US or certain parts of Europe, nonetheless there is a vast openness to the Camino with a variety of vistas and terrain to enjoy.

As for Brierly's breakdown between roads and paths, it is portions of those paths that were once dirt that have now become asphalt. However the paving has not turned paths into roadways open to other forms of traffic. Most of the paving occurred throughout 2010. The Camino of January 2010 is markedly different than that of January 2011 in this respect. At the same time there also remains a good deal of dirt trails. Through it all though the surrounding atmosphere has been retained. Flip flops may not be advisable but unless you need the ankle support, hiking boots are overkill. Shorts and tee shirt --- good idea.

If in an earlier post I led to the impression that the Camino has been somehow ruined, that is not the case. It has merely been changed. Some may prefer the changes, others may not. Despite all of this, the Camino does not disappoint. It can provide a spiritual experience far beyond that which may be imagined in advance.

Buen Camino!

 

[zzotte]

IMHO dirty is dirty nature cushion, they already did not have the common sense to make an alternative route and take the people off the roadways, now in they infinity wisdom they are paving the pathways, the next think will be pedestrian tool boots there is an idea. I have not done the camino yet (Im planning for 2012) I the more I read about the camino Frances the less I want to be in it.

Zo

 

[Rebekah Scott]

You will dislike some things on the Frances, but you will fall in love with the totality of it.
Maybe. The camino is not for everyone, no matter what some people say.

Reb.

 

[zzotte]

Precisely my point the camino its not for everyone so why they paving it? Less injury you say? If anyone ever walked 100 miles on pavement versus 100 miles on dirty tell me who's feet its suffers the worst? I am all for the prevention of injury so why let the people walk along the side of the freeway? I guess getting run down does not count as "injury prevention" Imho if you ask me is for one reason and one reason only its called commercialization.

Zo

 

[zzotte]

Hi Rebekah
I just now realized that you have a beautiful alternative route its called camino de invierno that bypasses the crowds in the last 200 k or so do you also have an alternative route to by pass the main paved roads? How about using the locals farms? Is that doable ( of course with permiso) As for me I would walk 50 xtra miles if I can avoid one paved highway cars and I don't get alone well.

Zo

 

[markss]

You will dislike some things on the Frances, but you will fall in love with the totality of it.
Maybe. The camino is not for everyone, no matter what some people say.

Reb.

So true, it is the totality. Persons of varied ages and level of physical ability have equally as varied opinion as to the level of difficulty. There are those who desire solitude and others the companionship of newfound friends. Either can be found. Some seek spiritual renewal, others a cheap holiday. Both can be had. And so it goes. One thing that you will not encounter often, either along the Camino, in Santiago, or on this forum, are very many people who after doing so will say that they regret having walked the Camino. On the contrary there is a recurring desire to do it all again. That says much!

 

[fraluchi]

The camino is not for everyone, no matter what some people say. Reb.

Perhaps they wanted more people to come to Paradise?
Everybody wants to go there, but nobody wants to die!

 

[AnnieBobanny]

Or am I missing the point? :|

Nope. I'd say you pretty much nailed the point.

 

[sulu]

+

I understand why parts of the sheer drop from Roncesvalles to Zubiri were paved -- they were eroding badly in 2001, and mud was ankle-deep toward the bottom. Now conditions are much more sane and safe.

Paving doesn't necessarily make the route safer, it depends when you walk. I walked this particular stretch in March 2010, snow had fallen on ice and the route was treacherous, the ice was invisible because of the snow. I was fortunate not to fall but others did. In the end we had to walk along the unpaved edges, thereby defeating the object, I think!