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- Frances 15,16,18
VdlP 23, Invierno 23, Fisterra 23
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There are a couple of things here where I have a different take. The first is that losing the DWR will NOT make the waterproof membrane ineffective. My understanding is that if the DWR wears off, the membrane remains just as effective - it is a separate layer of the fabric. All that is going to happen is that the face fabric of the garment will now retain water, but that it will not pass through the membrane on the inside of the garment.Goretex relies on two separate 'technologies' to remain 'effective'.
1. The Durable Water Resistant (DWR) coating of the top fabric on the outer shell.
2. The waterproof/breathable (WP/B) laminate film itself (goretex or whatever).
Washing with a regular detergent will not only strip the DWR coating, but will 'plug up' the WP/B membrane. Without an effective DWR, the outer shell of the garment will 'wet out' and the Goretex becomes useless. Let me reiterate: you must renew the DWR, not just clean it, as it does have a finite life. Dirt accelerates its wear and tear, but regular detergents and soaps will do the same.
As mentioned above, you want to use a specifically designed product that will both 'renew' the DWR coating, and remove oils and film from the interior WP/B membrane. Various manufacturers have released effective products that do a great job. NikWax is one brand.
Keep in mind that these products are varied in function, so you need to choose the right product to do the right job. It is vital to focus on the proper renewal of the DWR, as it is the most important component of the garment.
My understanding is that if the DWR wears off, the membrane remains just as effective - it is a separate layer of the fabric. All that is going to happen is that the face fabric of the garment will now retain water, but that it will not pass through the membrane on the inside of the garment.
Second is that washing with detergent will NOT strip the DWR.
It seems to me that there are sufficient different membranes that tolerate care regimes that weren't acceptable for Goretex that the best advice is to follow the directions on the laundry care tag - unless you are one of those people who remove these to save a couple of grams! Certainly it is not necessary to follow the Goretex guidelines if your rainwear has a different membrane technology.
Goretex becomes useless
The Goretex laminate ... will not be breathable until the DWR is restored.
Lots of good advice. I use the recommended products. However the inside sealing strips started to come off a gortex jacket I had for about 8 years. The manufacturer said it was caused by sweat as I had not washed it enough. Could not be repaired which was disappointing.OK, I confess....
I have never washed them
They don’t really get dirty or sweaty, so I just hose them down, or rinse them in plain water to get mud off the trouser bottoms....
I’m afraid that proper ‘washing’ might destroy the water proofing or breathability of the fabric.
I love my rain pants and jacket. Totally waterproof, wind proof and breathable....
Any advice on washing them ‘safely’......
@davebugg, I think it is misleading to present the issues in the absolute terms you have used, such as in these two quotes:
My reading is that membranes will continue to be both waterproof and breathable even when the front fabric wets out. Yes, the breathability will be reduced, but nothing I have read suggests that the garment is 'not breathable'. Certainly that reflects my practical experience with both Goretex and other membrane materials. .
When this happens, I think we both agree that washing the garment and, if necessary reapplying an after-market DWR replacement, is what is required to restore its original performance.
I also agree with @Jeff Crawley's advice about double rinsing. It is not so much the pure detergent, but all the additives that are designed to stay attached to the fabric - the bleach, phosphates, softener, brighteners and scent - that will clog things up. My experience with good outdoor wash products is that they are free of these additives, and I prefer to use these products for my rain gear over standard, softener free but otherwise additive rich, laundry detergent.
Lots of good advice. I use the recommended products. However the inside sealing strips started to come off a gortex jacket I had for about 8 years. The manufacturer said it was caused by sweat as I had not washed it enough. Could not be repaired which was disappointing.
So for what’s its worth frequent washing is worth it to maintain its functionality.
If the things didn't work when they were brand new I doubt whether they would work any better by introducing some aftermarket treatment from another supplier. Also this is the first time I've been told that Goretex gives a life time guarantee (by Camino David), certainly nothing of the sort was ever indicated or written when I bought the things. If I had known they would have been returned very quickly indeed. I remember years back now fronting up at Eddie Bauer in Washington DC and having the virtues of the stuff extolled. They scoffed when I said that mine leaked like a sieve. So next day I fronted up with it and asked for two glasses, one with water. I placed part of the jacket over the empty glass and dribbled water on it. I was wrong. It didn't leak like a sieve, the water just ran straight through, while a sieve would have provided at least some resistance . They were nonplussed.@Bogong -
I have great sympathy for your experience!
Grab some Nikwax garment wash and follow the instructions for a manual wash.
Then use the Nikwax WP spray per instructions. From what you describe, the 'Wash in' version of their WP is likely going to be less than effective.
B
As an aside on Teflon - if you buy a Tefal frying pan (Teflon coated) in France (and elsewhere too perhaps) the instructions tell you not to use it to cook in a kitchen that has caged birds in it which raises two points - what is so toxic about Teflon that it can injure a bird and two, who cooks with a caged bird in their kitchen?I've had three Goretex jackets, now disposed of, and two more recent ones, of which more later.
None of the three were waterproof from new, even in light rain. Basically they're a polyester/nylon type outer over a Teflon membrane and another protective layer inside to safeguard the teflon. The initial instructions were to wash only in soap, not detergents. When the stuff first came out you could buy the fabric and sew a jacket up yourself, but the company subsequently introduced a "closed shop" policy limiting the sale to established manufacturers.
There are some non-sequiters. First it's the teflon which is supposed to provide the breathability/waterproofness. But obviously if the outer layer becomes wet both functions will be compromised. But if you spray or treat the outer layer with virtually anything, or for that matter iron it, it's also to some extent going to seal the outer up and compromise the product and there's no gainsaying this. It leaves you with something not much better than a waterproof nylon Mac or an oilskin and if you're working hard you'll get wetter from sweat than from the rain. And actually what I had been told was that washing was directed principally at removing the sweat from the insides this was compromising the breathability, rather than dirt from the outside. Another issue is that some of the lightweight ones have had no inner lining to protect the teflon which will disappear very quickly from abrasion eg packstraps. And yet another were delamination problems particularly early on. And again the seam sealing strips can come off very early on.
I think the stuff is massively overpriced rubbish, and while some people may swear by it I certainly swear at it. A slick marketing con designed to part the gullible from their money. Nevertheless I recently bought the Inoc Aldi version which claims exactly the same performance attributes as Goretex but at a fraction of the price and also a virtually brand new Mountain Designs jacket for $20 at St Vinnie's which I couldn't pass up at the price. I've used them at best once or twice each and the outer layers of both wet up very quickly even in a light shower, so I don't really have any high expectations. The cleaning recommendations on the Aldi product are " Cold gentle machine wash with like colours Do not soak Do not bleach Line dry in shade without delay Do not iron do not dry clean".
I wonder whether or not Ventile would be a better alternative. Something has to be.
De Colores
Bogong
I had a ventile jacket by ‘snowsled’ In the UK, and it was a thing of beauty. Soft, comfortable highly breathable and very well made. Used on innumerable polar expeditions, although not by me!I've had three Goretex jackets, now disposed of, and two more recent ones, of which more later.
None of the three were waterproof from new, even in light rain. Basically they're a polyester/nylon type outer over a Teflon membrane and another protective layer inside to safeguard the teflon. The initial instructions were to wash only in soap, not detergents. When the stuff first came out you could buy the fabric and sew a jacket up yourself, but the company subsequently introduced a "closed shop" policy limiting the sale to established manufacturers.
There are some non-sequiters. First it's the teflon which is supposed to provide the breathability/waterproofness. But obviously if the outer layer becomes wet both functions will be compromised. But if you spray or treat the outer layer with virtually anything, or for that matter iron it, it's also to some extent going to seal the outer up and compromise the product and there's no gainsaying this. It leaves you with something not much better than a waterproof nylon Mac or an oilskin and if you're working hard you'll get wetter from sweat than from the rain. And actually what I had been told was that washing was directed principally at removing the sweat from the insides this was compromising the breathability, rather than dirt from the outside. Another issue is that some of the lightweight ones have had no inner lining to protect the teflon which will disappear very quickly from abrasion eg packstraps. And yet another were delamination problems particularly early on. And again the seam sealing strips can come off very early on.
I think the stuff is massively overpriced rubbish, and while some people may swear by it I certainly swear at it. A slick marketing con designed to part the gullible from their money. Nevertheless I recently bought the Inoc Aldi version which claims exactly the same performance attributes as Goretex but at a fraction of the price and also a virtually brand new Mountain Designs jacket for $20 at St Vinnie's which I couldn't pass up at the price. I've used them at best once or twice each and the outer layers of both wet up very quickly even in a light shower, so I don't really have any high expectations. The cleaning recommendations on the Aldi product are " Cold gentle machine wash with like colours Do not soak Do not bleach Line dry in shade without delay Do not iron do not dry clean".
I wonder whether or not Ventile would be a better alternative. Something has to be.
De Colores
Bogong
As an aside on Teflon - if you buy a Tefal frying pan (Teflon coated) in France (and elsewhere too perhaps) the instructions tell you not to use it to cook in a kitchen that has caged birds in it which raises two points - what is so toxic about Teflon that it can injure a bird and two, who cooks with a caged bird in their kitchen?
Pump action and a straight tobacco pipe and away you goIt's interesting, Jeff. . . I have raised Parrotlets (tiny parrots with big parrot personalities) and the teflon cookware thing has been a big point of discussion for a long time.
Birds don't have 'lungs' in the same way mammals have, and they become more susceptible to certain contaminants. The problem is not Teflon cookware, per se, when it is used for cooking at normal cooking temperatures. It is when the cookware is 'overheated' to temperatures above 530 F / 276 C. Apparently, it is at these temperatures at which Teflon coatings can begin to off-gas, which is toxic to birds.
So as long as you do not burn and inhale the fumes from your Goretex clothing, you should be OK.
I wonder if there are any warning signs for the clothing burners of Finestere?
I apologize if I have confused the issue here. I thought this too when I scanned the headline, but when I saw your comment, here:P.S. Due to the fact that the thread was specific to Goretex, my answer was specific to THAT product and not to the metaphysical inventory of other WP/B laminates.
(emphasis added)The waterproof/breathable (WP/B) laminate film itself (goretex or whatever).
I apologize if I have confused the issue here. I thought this too when I scanned the headline, but when I saw your comment, here:
(emphasis added)
I assumed that you were discussing the wider range of ePTFE membranes.
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