- Time of past OR future Camino
- Pamplona to Santiago (2013)
Le Puy to Pamplona in segments (2013 - 2016)
Pamplona to León
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
Reading posts and comments here and on other Camino websites, I understand the hospitalero's feelings. I see complaints about the lack of/not enough hot water, that the food is less than or not what was expected, the door closes too early/late, and the lack/not enough of other facilities and comforts. Similarly, pilgrims are not respecting the Way. Trash, toilet paper, and sometimes human waste are left on or near the paths. Rudeness and disrespect of others is on the rise. Bottom line is that it's up to us, the pilgrims, to change the situation. In my mind the changes are simple: be polite and kind, accept the rules of the albergue without comment, and understand what to expect before you stay there. Learn a few phrases of the local language -- the hospitalero will appreciate your efforts. Don't expect that the hospitalero speaks your language. As for the Way, pick up after yourself, the same as you would do at home!! Would you poop next to the sofa and leave it there? What about your toilet paper? Just throw it on the ground? C'mon. Greet others, don't be upset that they're going too slow/fast. Make less noise. Don't get angry that there are groups on the Camino, that's the way they chose to travel. Only we can "take back" the Way. Things aren't going to change unless people change, and don't expect everyone to do so. Just my thoughts.In the link posted below an experienced hospitalero bemoans the changes he (or maybe she) has seen in the behavior of many who walk the various Camino routes. I hesitate to summarize the feelings and opinions in this letter, but feel it is worth a read. In Spanish, but Google will translate it.
Carta abierta de un hospitalero
Un conocido y respetado hospitalero del Camino de Norte nos envió una "carta abierta", escrita por otro hospitalero que no desea ser identificado, por si estimábamos conveniente su publicación.www.gronze.com
That"s exactly what happened when I was staying at San Anton and San Nicholas last month. The chattering hoardes went right past.if there‘s a bign sign „no WIFI, no hot showers“ on the door, I‘m sure most of the tourists will walk past to another place..
Have we lost our Way?
Probably.
But maybe we were partly guilty in losing it?
I think unfortunately the Camino routes are fast becoming just a 'tourist' destination rather than a pilgrimage.
Inevitable perhaps through movies and social media.
But it is what it is........and still a joy to walk.
Maybe together with the credential and the list of albergues, a leaflet could be given to every pilgrim describing the concept of an albergue and the basic rules. Many people walking the Camino have never slept in an albergue or even a dormitory in general and no idea how to behave or what to expect (and some, sadly, no common sense also). Just a few words about what they can expect (and what not) in the usual albergue might be helpful. Then add a few sentences about litter / going to the toilet outdoors / bedbugs and you put a lot of helpful information out there already.
Also, placing a sign on the door of the albergue, clearly indicating the existing facilities, would help to keep out people with certain demands.
For example, if there‘s a bign sign „no WIFI, no hot showers“ on the door, I‘m sure most demanding tourists will walk past to another place...
Just...yes.Don't feed into the drama, that will only help to spoil the mood further. The only thing worse than an annoying, demanding egomanic person in your albergue is others getting angry and annoyed about that, starting a downward spiral that leads to a bad atmosphere for everyone. Be positive, share a bottle of wine and a smile and hope that your attitude might be a good example for others.
Bed sheets are rare in albergues. A few years back, the municipal albergues in Galicia began providing thin disposable bed sheets as an excuse to move from donativo to a 5E charge. Some other albergues have adopted the practice. The sheets may protect the mattress from pack dirt, but they do nothing for bed bugs and germs. Ten years ago the practice was to share the space under the bunk, half to the top bunk, half to the bottom bunk. Then pilgrims began to understand that the floor may be the worst place to store a pack overnight. Lockers have appeared in a few places, but the best practice is probably to hang the pack from a bunk corner post if it can be done.But many people don‘t realise the bedsheets won‘t be changed/cleaned after every pilgrim
I agree with some of what you said. As I wrote below your comment that we should point out to new Pilgrims and the tourists the proper etiquette of an albergue. But there is nothing worse than an egotistical douche who cares little for anyone or anything except his own comfort. Sorry but I respectfully disagree. In my experience many who see your willingness to accept their behavior is a sign of weakness to them and they will act even worse as days go by. Do you think a smile and a hug will stop someone who is verbally or emotionally abusing those around them? Maybe here or there but I doubt it.Most people don‘t behave a certain way out of bad intentions, but simply because they‘re uninformed and/or lacking basic life skills. Of course, the ignorant won‘t change their behaviour one bit just because they read some rules on a leaflet, but many others will. We all make mistakes all the time, and the more information you have the easier it is to avoid at least some of them.
There are many "Camino rules" which for experienced pilgrims are self-evident, and we forget that for others they are not.
For example the "never put your backpack on the bed" rule. Of course, because of dirt and bedbugs! But many people don‘t realise the bedsheets won‘t be changed/cleaned after every pilgrim, and they never ever even heard of bedbugs, so how should they know?
Whining, blaming and judging certainly won‘t help. Putting out information and educating people won‘t stop the hordes from coming, but it might give the tourists as well as the first-time-pilgrims an idea about which kind of behaviour is appropriate on the Camino and which isn‘t. What they do with that knowledge of course is another story and everyone's own choice.
Apart from that, maybe look at yourself also and practice some tolerance. Don't feed into the drama, that will only help to spoil the mood further. The only thing worse than an annoying, demanding egomanic person in your albergue is others getting angry and annoyed about that, starting a downward spiral that leads to a bad atmosphere for everyone. Be positive, share a bottle of wine and a smile and hope that your attitude might be a good example for others.
Most people don‘t behave a certain way out of bad intentions, but simply because they‘re uninformed and/or lacking basic life skills. Of course, the ignorant won‘t change their behaviour one bit just because they read some rules on a leaflet, but many others will. We all make mistakes all the time, and the more information you have the easier it is to avoid at least some of them.
There are many "Camino rules" which for experienced pilgrims are self-evident, and we forget that for others they are not.
For example the "never put your backpack on the bed" rule. Of course, because of dirt and bedbugs! But many people don‘t realise the bedsheets won‘t be changed/cleaned after every pilgrim, and they never ever even heard of bedbugs, so how should they know?
Whining, blaming and judging certainly won‘t help. Putting out information and educating people won‘t stop the hordes from coming, but it might give the tourists as well as the first-time-pilgrims an idea about which kind of behaviour is appropriate on the Camino and which isn‘t. What they do with that knowledge of course is another story and everyone's own choice.
Apart from that, maybe look at yourself also and practice some tolerance. Don't feed into the drama, that will only help to spoil the mood further. The only thing worse than an annoying, demanding egomanic person in your albergue is others getting angry and annoyed about that, starting a downward spiral that leads to a bad atmosphere for everyone. Be positive, share a bottle of wine and a smile and hope that your attitude might be a good example for others.
"Can I get?" No No No. The correct phrase at anytime is " I would like .... please" or at a pinch " Could You get the item for me please"Can I get some whine with my dinner?
Why is the floor a bad place to store a pack?Bed sheets are rare in albergues. A few years back, the municipal albergues in Galicia began providing thin disposable bed sheets as an excuse to move from donativo to a 5E charge. Some other albergues have adopted the practice. The sheets may protect the mattress from pack dirt, but they do nothing for bed bugs and germs. Ten years ago the practice was to share the space under the bunk, half to the top bunk, half to the bottom bunk. Then pilgrims began to understand that the floor may be the worst place to store a pack overnight. Lockers have appeared in a few places, but the best practice is probably to hang the pack from a bunk corner post if it can be done.
"Rules" and good ideas change over time. Being irritated because some things have changed is futile. Even "good manners" are not constant, but the basics probably should not change. The saw about tourists' demanding is at least two decades old, so it is not a result of new pilgrims expecting more.
Not everyone is cut out to be a hospitalero. If you expect appreciation, stay out of the business.Some donativo albergues constantly kvetch about pilgrims who leave nothing. The solution, having a price (like Galicia), is rejected because it makes the refuge out of line with some fifty-year-old customs.
The happiest pilgrims are those without expectations and a high tolerance for others having a different way to do the walk. High strung and high maintenance pilgrims generally are, well, high strung and high maintenance, and a bit of a drag (checkout '60's slang).
That is where packs are getting their bugs...Why is the floor a bad place to store a pack?
For example, if there‘s a bign sign „no WIFI, no hot showers“ on the door, I‘m sure most demanding tourists will walk past to another place...
Can I get implies that the enquirer is going to be doing the "getting" , in the majority of cases this is not so, don't say it on that fashion.
You are not the only one. This thread got a lot of discussion going:Yes! The "Way" is changing especially the Frances and it seems to have changed overnight. Due to social media and (please don't flog me) the phrase "It's your Camino".
It's sad to read this, but perhaps it's an inevitable consequence of the commercialisation of the Camino routes. I haven't worked as a hospitalero, so I'm in no position to comment on his/her views. However, I can empathise with their point of view. Although, the Camino is an open door to anyone who wants to travel along these ancient routes. The different types of pilgrim are a reflection of society to some degree. So, we shouldn't be too surprised to see the things mentioned in this article.In the link posted below an experienced hospitalero bemoans the changes he (or maybe she) has seen in the behavior of many who walk the various Camino routes. I hesitate to summarize the feelings and opinions in this letter, but feel it is worth a read. In Spanish, but Google will translate it.
Carta abierta de un hospitalero
Un conocido y respetado hospitalero del Camino de Norte nos envió una "carta abierta", escrita por otro hospitalero que no desea ser identificado, por si estimábamos conveniente su publicación.www.gronze.com
Nope.But maybe it is just me.
Most of other Caminos are still the same as the Frances was 20-30 years ago. I have walked few of them, maybe you should too especially Invierno if you don't want to walk last 100+km from Sarria.Having just returned after finishing the final 430 km , and feeling stiff and sore I might add. I am by no means an expert but I have been on the Camino Frances 3 times and love walking it. I believe that every pilgrim is different and walks a different Camino and I believe some on this site generalize too much on posts here .There is some fantastic advice but there is also a lot of false impressions given .I think that Spain is very lucky to have the Camino and parts of it would be deserted only for it . Like it or not every pilgrim is a tourist and their money is The lifeblood of the Camino , the first half or two thirds is by far the most welcoming and less tourist orientated . I found that the Municipal Albergues attracted the type of pilgrim that l identified with . They arrived tired washed themselves and their clothes and generally were quiet about the place and the lights out rules and noise rules were respected. The other Albergues €9 to €12 attracted a different pilgrim whose bags were sent ahead and I often wondered did they also arrive by taxi . They never seemed as if they had walked the 20 to 35 km that they said they walked and were usually energetic and loud and bedtimes never mattered to them .
I felt this year that the couriers were doing a lot more business . I must confess the nearer I got to Sarria the less I enjoyed it and will never again walk the final 115 km.
It must have been magical to walk the Camino 30 or 20 years ago but those days are gone and in it’s place is a different experience.
I apologize if I strayed a bit from the topic or if I hijacked this post .
Life when your biggest worry is a bed? Bangladesh (for example) should be so lucky!!!I refer not just to the bed race, though that is perhaps the biggest issue
Life when your biggest worry is a bed? Bangladesh (for example) should be so lucky!!!
You cannot escape the "rat race" if you bring it with you as part of your attitude. One of the few things that is completely under the control of the individual is attitude. You cannot control Brexit, the timeliness of the train, or rainfall. Why not control the one thing you can control, your attitude?
"Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings. "
I am more lay about and less competitive than you...I'm a low ambition relative lay about who's generally content
Couldn't agree more..always thought it was a ridiculous cliche. Witness the bag rustlers,4.30am noisy buggers with their headlights...and alarm clocks for heavens sake!Yes! The "Way" is changing especially the Frances and it seems to have changed overnight. Due to social media and (please don't flog me) the phrase "It's your Camino".
Forgive me, I've never really liked that phrase. Even though yes, we make our own choices as far as what backpack to use, what shoes will work, alburgue or pension, pack transfer or not etc... But, once boots are on the ground it becomes more then that. It is The Camino de Santiago de Compestela.
It is "The Way of St James". Not the way of Angela or the way of Kathy or the way of Tim or Scott etc......
It is NOT a check mark off a bucket list or a Spring Break party or a Facebook page full of "Look at Me" photos. It is a "Pilgrimage", but because of current technology and social media the heart of the Camino isn't being revealed or represented, it is seen as just that, by most people, a check mark and it shows in the current condition of The Way. This makes me cry.
I'm not saying people shouldn't go on the Camino because I know how it can change a person in a positive way so please don't chastise me for my thoughts. It would be so wonderful if everyone knew what St James did and what he continues to do and what the "heart" of the Camino is.
God Bless and may the Heart of Camino be revealed to all who walk The Way.
Buen Camino
I am more lay about and less competitive than you...
I see that this snail is using the baggage carrier service. When I walked the Camino Frances I took a picture of a snail and shared it, but ours was carrying its possessions like we were:My spirit animal will race ya' to the fence for a beer...
View attachment 59283
It is little known, but centuries ago the snails had
their own camino. They only traveled to Santiago from
about 1 km out, but it still took them several months.
The tale is told of a group of snails that was set
upon by a group of turtle bandits. The turtles beat
the snails and stole their equipment.
The snails moved as quickly as they could to report
the assault to the Guardia Civil. When the policeman
asked the snails for a description of the bandits,
they replied, "We really cannot say. It all happened
so fast."
Maybe together with the credential and the list of albergues, a leaflet could be given to every pilgrim describing the concept of an albergue and the basic rules. Many people walking the Camino have never slept in an albergue or even a dormitory in general and no idea how to behave or what to expect (and some, sadly, no common sense also). Just a few words about what they can expect (and what not) in the usual albergue might be helpful. Then add a few sentences about litter / going to the toilet outdoors / bedbugs and you put a lot of helpful information out there already.
Also, placing a sign on the door of the albergue, clearly indicating the existing facilities, would help to keep out people with certain demands.
For example, if there‘s a bign sign „no WIFI, no hot showers“ on the door, I‘m sure most demanding tourists will walk past to another place...
I have walked the Camino twice and intend to be back this fall. For my wife and myself it is an opportunity to relax and detach from everyday life. We are kind to everyone and expect nothing from anyone. Always grateful for the services offered. Every evening we enjoy a small group of new friends. However, I have come across the rude, pushy and complaining pilgrims. I have to admit these people get under my skin. In my humble opinion, if you’re looking to be catered to, stay at a Hilton. I will be taking my sons with us this year (both early 20’s). I really hope they find the journey to be as special as I do.Reading posts and comments here and on other Camino websites, I understand the hospitalero's feelings. I see complaints about the lack of/not enough hot water, that the food is less than or not what was expected, the door closes too early/late, and the lack/not enough of other facilities and comforts. Similarly, pilgrims are not respecting the Way. Trash, toilet paper, and sometimes human waste are left on or near the paths. Rudeness and disrespect of others is on the rise. Bottom line is that it's up to us, the pilgrims, to change the situation. In my mind the changes are simple: be polite and kind, accept the rules of the albergue without comment, and understand what to expect before you stay there. Learn a few phrases of the local language -- the hospitalero will appreciate your efforts. Don't expect that the hospitalero speaks your language. As for the Way, pick up after yourself, the same as you would do at home!! Would you poop next to the sofa and leave it there? What about your toilet paper? Just throw it on the ground? C'mon. Greet others, don't be upset that they're going too slow/fast. Make less noise. Don't get angry that there are groups on the Camino, that's the way they chose to travel. Only we can "take back" the Way. Things aren't going to change unless people change, and don't expect everyone to do so. Just my thoughts.
Would it be more accurate to say that you let these people get under your skin?I have come across the rude, pushy and complaining pilgrims. I have to admit these people get under my skin.
I witnessed the exact same behavior in 2016 except it was an oldish man who came in and sat down . It nearly turned into a fist fight but the the man stayed sitting and the the other person in his twenties had to back down . The attendants at the Cathedral had watched this keeping of seats and aggressive behavior for an hour and took no action . It gets very mixed up as you near Santiago . The first time I landed there was a crowd from a tour bus standing on the marker taking photos and no pilgrim could get near the spot and this year when I arrived there was a Lorry with promotional posters for something parked on top of it and in the pouring rain again no pilgrim could get near it . I wondered would it have made more sense just to walk on through the city and ignore the circus .I'm hesitating to write this but it's something that's been on my mind since it happened and this thread and losing our way resonated strongly with me. I walked a section of the Portugués in 2017 with a small group of close friends. It went very well. At the time I said I'd love to do it again and linger awhile in some of the smaller places we passed through. It was a first Camino for a few of the group and it was amazing to see a transformation after the first few days. Although it was a busy enough route, we seemed to meet a lot of wise and funny people, who guided us on our way and kept us fed and watered. There were terrible wild fires in the area at the time and the locals went out of their way to keep us safe and informed. We arrived in Santiago in the afternoon and decided to wind down for the evening and go to the Pilgrim Mass in the Cathedral the following day. It's something I feel a little ambivalent about, although I like to go to show respect for the ritual, soak up the atmosphere of a sacred place, and appreciate that sense of community that I had witnessed on previous trips. That morning we went to the Cathedral early to show the newbies the ropes (!) and we eventually split up as we wandered around. I found a spot mid-way down an aisle, close to a pillar to sit down and do a bit of people watching. The Cathedral was busy and 30 minutes or so before the Mass started, the pews in the area I was sitting were almost full. There was a large group of people (won't go into nationality but they were English-speaking) with a tour guide occupying three or four pews in front of me and they were keeping spaces for their fellow travellers by placing umbrellas on the pews so as no-one could sit down. The tour guide was patrolling the area with grim intent. A very slight, elderly French woman came up and managed to squeeze into the corner of the pew directly in front of me and by doing so, sat on one of the strategically-placed umbrellas. Within seconds, there was uproar. Those holding the places started to berate her loudly and the tour guide even tried to physically remove her from the seat. One of the group pulled the umbrella from under the French woman and almost knocked her out of the seat. The woman stood her ground and very calmly said that she had walked over 600 kms from France, was a pilgrim here to pray and that this was a cathedral not a cinema. It was terribly upsetting to watch. The tour guide shouted (yes, shouted!) that these were 'our seats' and she 'hadda move'. I was so shocked at the behaviour that I left and haven't been back since. Although I am and always will be a peregrina, and feel a huge connection to the North of Spain, its cultures and people, the confrontation in the cathedral has diminished my experience of the Camino considerably. So I think this is a long-winded way to say that if the question is 'Are we losing our Way?', the answer for me is 'I have lost my Way'.
PS I was on the side of the French lady. I can't believe to this day that I didn't offer her my seat. I will never know what happened after I left.
Apologies for long post.
Yes! The "Way" is changing especially the Frances and it seems to have changed overnight. Due to social media and (please don't flog me) the phrase "It's your Camino".
I am not blaming the movie "The Way" with Martin Sheen. I'm guessing this is the movie you are referring to? I loved the movie and often recommend it to others. Even though it did shine a light on the Camino, it's not to blame in whole. Besides, I didn't mention the movie, I said "Social Media".I think blaming the movie is a mistake.
I know REI because I live in the US and I wouldn't blame them as a whole either, as a matter of fact they came late in the game. But let's blame the crazy Americans anyway. LOLIf you want to blame someone blame the partnership between REI, a gear shop in the US, that partners with American Pilgrims on The Camino to host awareness workshops about how easy it is, how inexpensive, how it's safe with little or no mention of it being a current PILGRIMAGE destination, never explaining what it means to be a pilgrim but does tell people how to get a PILGRIM'S passport.
When I completed my 2018 Camino, I got there very early for a seat at the cathedral. I was also shocked to see seats being reserved by a tour group, and not just any seats, but some pretty prime ones. And the cathedral attendants were doing nothing about it. It turned out that the tour group had paid for the botafumeiro to be swung that mass and as part of it, for their contribution to the Cathedral, they were allowed to reserve seats for the mass. When I learned that, I was a little more forgiving. It had been some 30 years since I'd seen the botafumeiro swing, since it was never used at any of the masses we attended after my 2016 Camino.I witnessed the exact same behavior in 2016 except it was an oldish man who came in and sat down . It nearly turned into a fist fight but the the man stayed sitting and the the other person in his twenties had to back down . The attendants at the Cathedral had watched this keeping of seats and aggressive behavior for an hour and took no action .
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?