SantiagoFromColombia
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- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino in March 22nd 2023 to April 27th 2023.
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Thank you! dougfitz for the additional information, it is highly appreciated.There are two recent threads that might also help you:
Pilgrim attire (including shorts) are fine, but tank tops and bare midriffs are inappropriate and men must always remove caps and hats. Backpacks are fine, set to the side. Some churches in Europe still require women to wear skirts, but these are getting fewer. Attendance at Mass is certainly welcome. Holy Communion is only for practicing Catholics. Wandering around and sightseeing while Mass is underway is hugely disrespectful. Photographs during Mass definitely not.When entering Churches in Spain, would it be disrespectful to enter in pilgrims attire? i.e. shorts, and backpack. Might it also matter depending on whether or not they are holding mass at the given time?
Thanks for any helpful advice on the matter.
I've never encountered a church that requires skirts . . . but often the requirement to cover shoulders and knees (long shorts for men OK). Sarongs are one lightweight way to ensure you can meet these requirements. Churches on the Camino are used to pilgrims - how we look and how we smellPilgrim attire (including shorts) are fine, but tank tops and bare midriffs are inappropriate and men must always remove caps and hats. Backpacks are fine, set to the side. Some churches in Europe still require women to wear skirts, but these are getting fewer. Attendance at Mass is certainly welcome. Holy Communion is only for practicing Catholics. Wandering around and sightseeing while Mass is underway is hugely disrespectful. Photographs during Mass definitely not.
remove your hat if you're a man - fine for women to keep wearingRemove your hat ... sometimes we forget!
I am not sure of that. Every man must visit a sinagogue with something on his head but every man shouid not visit a catholic church with something on his head.If you are a man and Jewish, wearing a kippa, you need not remove it. No church requires this.
As an Anglican I would never expect an observant Jew or Sikh to remove their headwear when visiting a church. It is very clear that such headwear is an integral part of their own religious traditions and identity and that there is no intent to cause offence by wearing it. I would be very surprised and deeply disappointed to hear that any Catholic church would insist that such religious headwear is removed by visiting men of another faith.I am not sure of that. Every man must visit a sinagogue with something on his head but every man shouid not visit a catholic church with something on his head.
Do you think that an observant jewish would visit a catholic church? If so, for me they are welcome with the kippa.Observant Jewish men, just like Sikhs, keep their heads covered all the time, not just when entering their respected places of worship.
In Spain is different. The jewish here are almost all sephardim. I never saw someone wearing orthodox clothes on the street and very few with kippa.I do tours in Frankfurt all the time with observant Jews, including Rabbis. They have no problem entering a Catholic church to see historical details. I am sure that Jews that are walking on the Camino have interest in seeing the cathedral in Burgos, or Astorga, or Leon.
I apologize for bringing this post off its' original intent.
In Spain is different. The jewish here are almost all sephardim. I never saw someone wearing orthodox clothes on the street and very few with kippa.
Yes I know that Askenazim jewish have different forms of judaism but not Sephardim jewish out of Israel so far. But if we continue with this interesting issue we absolutely derail the OP.Sorry , there are many forms of orthodoxy in Judaism. From indeed the very visible Chassidism. But even a modern orthodox Jew will wear a kippa when going to a place of worship.
I am Jim's wife, and am a Roman Catholic. I attended a parochial school where we were instructed that all females should have a covering for their head while in church. During mid-adulthood, the rules were relaxed to make it so that wearing a hat or other covering was optional for females. Somehow, that evolved into a situation where wearing hats in church is frowned upon for females, no matter what type, and usually the frowning is done by much-younger-than-me ushers and other such church attendants. That's in the United States. Does this hold true in Spain also?Remove your hat ... sometimes we forget!
So hats off for both sexes must be a worldwide phenomenon for Catholic churches. Thank-you for your response!I am a catholic Spanish and I would say that what you describe is more or less what has happened in Spain.
Gracias Padre! for your very thoughful reply, the effort is appreciated.@SantiagoFromColombia Welcome to the forum.
I think if you are concerned enough to ask the question, you can be confident that you are respectful enough not to have to worry!!
I am a Catholic priest.
The rules about women and men and headgear while in church were formalised in the Code of Canon Law in 1917, which required women to have their heads covered, and men not to, during the liturgy. This was stated in canon 1262. There was no formal rule prior to 1917, though there was long tradition,
The Code of Canon Law was revised in1983 and the new Code replaces the old Code. This canon of the old code is not in the new code and is technically 'abrogated'. So there is now no rule in effect for those who attend the liturgy, male or female.
This change rather followed practice. Many women had stopped wearing headgear (in UK and Ireland, USA, perhaps less so in more Latin southern Europe) once the mass in the vernacular was introduced after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, even though the Council did not speak on the specific question of attire.
In 69 years of attending Mass I can never remember anyone being sanctioned for not wearing headgear or for wearing headgear. I think it would be quite extraordinary, though traditional practice may vary in different cultures.
I think men wearing hats in church doesn't happen often (in my own culture) because men don't wear hats much any more - in my culture. In the days when they did (when I was young) I think men used to take their hats off when going indoors anyway.
The present Pope, Francis, would be wholly against any kind of behaviour which made anyone feel unwelcome in a church, eitther the church building or the church community. He has frequently said that churches should be open at all times to all.
I did once get in trouble in a church on the Camino Portugues on a Sunday morning when I sat in the seat which apparently belonged to one of the 'regular' local ladies. And I had put my sopping wet hat on the seat which belonged to another of the regulars. But I was happy to move, although they remained a bti suspicious.But one of them bought me coffee afterwards.
I think for anyone a basic approach of common sense and respect for others is sufficient. I know that in Italy is still to be found occasionally signage aboout very short and revealing dress. Some places will lend you a skirt or top to cover, but I think this happens less now.
Anyone is welcome to stay throughout a service if they so wish. To have a basic orientation that you would not wish to offend will take you a long way. No one is going to get exercised by whether you stand or sit or kneel at the right time. If in doubt, follow the majority. If you are weary and want to sit throughout, no one will be alarmed.
I note that the OP asks specifically about Spain. That is important - apart from the univeral rules, the local culture and practice does need to be respected. But that is not difficult.
Thank you, father, for your comprehensive report on this-- much appreciated view on this matter and that varied cultural practices have influenced this issue over the ages. It helps to know that you can't be far off the mark to follow what the locals are doing.@SantiagoFromColombia Welcome to the forum.
I think if you are concerned enough to ask the question, you can be confident that you are respectful enough not to have to worry!!
I am a Catholic priest.
The rules about women and men and headgear while in church were formalised in the Code of Canon Law in 1917, which required women to have their heads covered, and men not to, during the liturgy. This was stated in canon 1262. There was no formal rule prior to 1917, though there was long tradition,
The Code of Canon Law was revised in1983 and the new Code replaces the old Code. This canon of the old code is not in the new code and is technically 'abrogated'. So there is now no rule in effect for those who attend the liturgy, male or female.
This change rather followed practice. Many women had stopped wearing headgear (in UK and Ireland, USA, perhaps less so in more Latin southern Europe) once the mass in the vernacular was introduced after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, even though the Council did not speak on the specific question of attire.
In 69 years of attending Mass I can never remember anyone being sanctioned for not wearing headgear or for wearing headgear. I think it would be quite extraordinary, though traditional practice may vary in different cultures.
I think men wearing hats in church doesn't happen often (in my own culture) because men don't wear hats much any more - in my culture. In the days when they did (when I was young) I think men used to take their hats off when going indoors anyway.
The present Pope, Francis, would be wholly against any kind of behaviour which made anyone feel unwelcome in a church, eitther the church building or the church community. He has frequently said that churches should be open at all times to all.
I did once get in trouble in a church on the Camino Portugues on a Sunday morning when I sat in the seat which apparently belonged to one of the 'regular' local ladies. And I had put my sopping wet hat on the seat which belonged to another of the regulars. But I was happy to move, although they remained a bti suspicious.But one of them bought me coffee afterwards.
I think for anyone a basic approach of common sense and respect for others is sufficient. I know that in Italy is still to be found occasionally signage aboout very short and revealing dress. Some places will lend you a skirt or top to cover, but I think this happens less now.
Anyone is welcome to stay throughout a service if they so wish. To have a basic orientation that you would not wish to offend will take you a long way. No one is going to get exercised by whether you stand or sit or kneel at the right time. If in doubt, follow the majority. If you are weary and want to sit throughout, no one will be alarmed.
I note that the OP asks specifically about Spain. That is important - apart from the univeral rules, the local culture and practice does need to be respected. But that is not difficult.
Indeed. And on the Camino Frances the churches and priests are often proactive in encouraging people outside of the catholic faith. such as myself, to feel welcome and attend the evening mass and participate in the pilgrim blessing.The present Pope, Francis, would be wholly against any kind of behaviour which made anyone feel unwelcome in a church, eitther the church building or the church community. He has frequently said that churches should be open at all times to all.
In fact, the same applies to men (and women, of course, although beside the point in this case) who are in church on military, police, fire brigade or ambulance duties, for example. They are not expected to remove their headgear, a part of their uniform and a symbol of their office, although they often do so.Observant Jewish men, just like Sikhs, keep their heads covered all the time, not just when entering their respected places of worship.
How bizarre! Did you understand his reasoning? Or was he not quite all there?I once, on a very hot day, had my hat forcibly removed by the elderly (I'll call him a gentleman) behind me while waiting in line at Lourdes. Literally knocked it off and berated me.
Is this rule (and others given above) from the bible?When I attend mass; Longer shorts (no short shorts) and T- shirt (no tank tops) are fine.
My experiences in Spain and elsewhere when on camino is a pilgrim is welcome in a church wearing what your everyday walking clothes with backpack and poles. And given that I wear what many might see as a skirt (and what others do call the kilt) I have yet to be told cross-dressers are not welcome.When entering Churches in Spain, would it be disrespectful to enter in pilgrims attire? i.e. shorts, and backpack
I was accused of not showing respect to the Virgin Mary. Apparently because of a shady hat on a hot day. I suppose he might have thought I was a man, I was wearing trousers and a shirt. I left because I would have been rude if I had stayed, and it wasn't the time or place for a loud argument.How bizarre! Did you understand his reasoning? Or was he not quite all there?
I haven't seen anyone claim a biblical origin for their advice on this. @timr provided a longer explanation earlier about the history of its place in Catholic canon law, where it seems for some time it was a formal rule of the Catholic Church. As such, it was observed by my parents in my youth.Is this rule (and others given above) from the bible?
That was my point. There was no origin given by @palmah and others before. It was just a personal view expressed (as I read the posts) as binding on all.I haven't seen anyone claim a biblical origin for their advice on this
Southern European church attire is far more frequently "just normal clothes" than in the Anglosphere, and if you are in Pilgrim Kit, far from disrespectful -- you will most often be respected for wearing it along your pilgrimage.When entering Churches in Spain, would it be disrespectful to enter in pilgrims attire? i.e. shorts, and backpack. Might it also matter depending on whether or not they are holding mass at the given time?
Thanks for any helpful advice on the matter.
There is an old Mediaeval indult allowing pilgrims to wear the "signs" of their pilgrimage during Mass -- which are staff, scrip (nowadays backpack), and hat. Technically, as I read it, only those Catholics having been to Compostela can benefit from it ; though as a matter of course, it's normally better not to insist on it.men must always remove caps and hats
How odd. I suggest that the almost no-else would be so fine grained about a distinction that excluded religious or any other ceremonial headwear. But if you did, why did you suggest that your ball cap and beanie where hats? Neither has a brim. One has a peak, the other - normally nothing. Clearly you accept brimless headwear, so why not a turban, kippah or any other form of brimless headwear?I don't regard what Jewish and Sikh men traditionally wear on their heads as "hats."
How odd. I suggest that the almost no-else would be so fine grained about a distinction that excluded religious or any other ceremonial headwear. But if you did, why did you suggest that your ball cap and beanie where hats? Neither has a brim. One has a peak, the other - normally nothing. Clearly you accept brimless headwear, so why not a turban, kippah or any other form of brimless headwear?
No, in a general way, I only consider headwear with a brim to be a hat, anything with a peak to be a cap and then don't bother lumping anything else under some generic label. But I also know that meanings shift, and the word, hat, has acquired the more general sense over my lifetime of being almost any headwear.I suppose in a mundane way, religious headgear can be considered to be hats, caps, beanies, or an ordinary article of clothing, etc. because they are worn on the head. I suspect but am unsure that might be your perspective.
The "what happened" discussion is one I would like to have with you over a cup of coffee, but I suspect is out of bounds for this forum (Rule #2).On the general topic, I was brought up in a catholic family, and males removed any headwear when they entered a church, females didn't. I continue to wonder when I see discussions like these what happened when I was an infant. Was there some point where my mother would remove any pretty blue bonnet I was wearing, or was I allowed to wear it whenever I was in church.
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