Cyclists and pedestrians

[TerryB]

I came across this notice referring to the coastal footpath near Suances. (Near Santander on the north coast).
Maybe a few of these on the Camino, certainly in the latter stages, would be a good idea
In my experience, very few cyclists have or use a bell.

Blessings
Tio Tel

 

[skilsaw]

Cyclists racing downhill and blasting past pilgrims on foot is a terrifying experience for the person walking.

Slow down. Let them know you are coming.
There is enough senda for everyone.

 

[frasert]

Like elsewhere in the world cyclists seem to be averse to bells on the camino.
I did notice when there was a lot of cycle traffic pilgrims kept to the right side of the path or road which helps.

 

[brawblether]

I did notice when there was a lot of cycle traffic pilgrims kept to the right side of the path or road which helps.

The trouble is that those of us from countries who drive on the left, our instincts are usually to walk on the left, which, when there are bikes hurtling down upon up, can be dangerous.

 

[RENSHAW]

When I last broached this subject ( with humour) , I found some cyclists were very quick to attack me rather than admit that they did not have a bell. Indeed , the thread was closed , ...the arrogance .............the ignorance.

How many of you cycled the camino without a bell? :mrgreen:

 

[StuartM]

In the UK it has been illegal to sell a bike without a bell (or similar) for about nine years. There is no requirement to keep it there though. I'm a cyclist and with lights, computer and gear shifts on my MTB handlebars it is a big temptation to remove.

The trouble I've found with bells is that people often don't hear them until you are right on top of them. The other problem is the frightened rabbit move, people hear the bell and either freeze or do some odd side to side shuffle that achieves nothing.

Far better is a shout, it carries further, easier to hear and doesn't seem to send people into a panic. Admittedly it's a bit harder in a multilingual situation but a shout is a shout.

I can't understand why a thread should get heated. It's both common sense and usually a legal requirement that the quicker moving vehicle bears the responsibility for giving way to the pedestrian. As a cyclist I've no time for bad cyclists.

 

[RENSHAW]

I can't understand why a thread should get heated. It's both common sense and usually a legal requirement that the quicker moving vehicle bears the responsibility for giving way to the pedestrian. As a cyclist I've no time for bad cyclists.

It was a great thread , I thought it was funny , even Ivar highlighted it for a few weeks.

 

[NicoZ]

The trouble is that those of us from countries who drive on the left, our instincts are usually to walk on the left, which, when there are bikes hurtling down upon up, can be dangerous.

It's usually best to walk against traffic. Cyclists should be riding with traffic. Walking against traffic means you see cars and bikes heading towards you.

A person hit by a fast riding bike is going to be hurt fairly badly.

 

[mralisn]

Being quite familiar with both sides, I have also found frustration.

On many occasions, cyclists would come quickly down the path and expect instant clearance. I also know this exhilaration of feeling free on my bike and have fun with speed. However, there were times when the bikers would do this even though there was clear tarmac right next to the footpath for sometimes many kilometers.

Please keep the discussion going. Perhaps there is a solution or at least the increased awareness of all on the Way.

 

[newfydog]

When I last broached this subject ( with humour) , I found some cyclists were very quick to attack me rather than admit that they did not have a bell. Indeed , the thread was closed , ...the arrogance .............the ignorance.

How many of you cycled the camino without a bell? :mrgreen:

Maybe i missed that thread, or just forgot the arrogance and ignorance. It seems to me the cyclists who post here are part of the solution, not the problem.

Newf, (who has a bell, slows down to sat hello in five languages, and hasn't run down a walker in 6000 km.)

 

[RENSHAW]

Newf, (who has a bell, slows down to sat hello in five languages, and hasn't run down a walker in 6000 km.)

Dog , por jew I killa da bull I look forward to meeting you some day .....and Falcon ......and the Matron from the Fox House , Johnny walker and Ivar ............ and many others not mentioned.

 

[Callea]

I am currently on the Camino in León after starting in SJPdP. I have encountered many cyclists and have had no trouble hearing the bell or the spoken warning from behind. The cyclists have all been very courteous with their warnings. I wish I could say the same for the fast-walkers. I have been practically walked on several times. The worst offenders seem to be those walking in groups, who apparently consider it an outrage that they might have to resort to single file for a moment in time to courteously pass a slower walker.

Buen Camino!

 

[RENSHAW]

I am currently on the Camino in León ..........

Do have one or two of those glace oranges dipped in dark chocolate for me and a cortardo coffee at the Albany

 

[newfydog]

There is an art to the bell. It is a fine line between a friendly ding! and a DING DING DING! I own this road and commin through! The latter is only appropriate when you see an mp3 player plugged in.

 

[NicoZ]

Some people have less then perfect hearing. Even the wind and road noise can cover a bell.

Would people honk a car horn and expect pedestrians to move ?

 

[newfydog]

Would people honk a car horn and expect pedestrians to move ?

Actually, cyclists normally would prefer that walkers do not move over. There is usually room for us to go around them. The problems come when a bike startles them and they jump at the last second to the same side you wanted to pass on. As long as you are not in a group side by side across the entire path the bikes will just go around you.

 

[skilsaw]

It's usually best to walk against traffic. Cyclists should be riding with traffic. Walking against traffic means you see cars and bikes heading towards you..

This is a good idea on roadways where there are pedestrians, cyclists and cars sharing the road.
It doesn't work on the Camino because 99% of us are all going one way, to Santiago.

 

[max44]

I have just completed a full camino from SJPDP.
I treated three people along the way who were hit by bikes or trying to avoid them.
One lady was 66 now with a cracked rib. One sprined wrist and the other was a bruise.
If you listen to music, you have no chance. Most said burn camino instead of a bell.
It's a shared path, I guess vehicles and pedestrians will never mix.
I was told by someone they pushed their walking pole into a riders wheel after clipping him. Hope this is the exception rather than becoming the rule. Over all, I found them friendly.

 

[brawblether]

For those who are including cars into the mix, you are quite right, walking against the traffic is the safest way of doing things and therefore yes, you should have no trouble with bikes. And so, I never did have any trouble with bikes, along the road. But, as you well know, a very large portion of the Camino trails aren't on roads but paths and this is when I found the issue with bikes. We can all share, just as a walking piligrim shouldn't get in the way of a bike thoughtlessly, neither should a cyclist hoon past a walker/group of walkers who might get frightened by their sudden presence next to them or on their heels. I think, a little more care and thought shown for each other is what's called for, and tha'ts not restricted to walkers with cyclists and vice versa but for each person we meet along the way.

 

[freeflyer123]

It is so sad to see (from these entries at least) that, even in the camino, this inherent 'hatred' between pedestrians and cyclists still exists. As a cyclist, I have always tried to be very aware that everyone has a right to use the route and we all need to respect each other. Bells on bicycles should be the law in all countries, and they should be used in plenty of time to let walkers know when a cyclist is around. I doubt that many pilgrims on the camino would be sporting earphones and listening to music (and thus wouldn't hear a fog horn if it came up behind them), so a bell should not be a problem - as long as it is used!

I would appeal to everyone on the camino to try and respect each other and their chosen mode of transport. That way, we should all be able to have a good camino.

 

[max44]

As this forum is used to share learning, I am not sure this is a hatred of bikes etc. I chose to walk rather than ride, that just happened to be my choice. Speed causing accidents, especially in areas marked for walking only and being used as a high speed downhill mountain trail.
A few bikers said there are "races" to get to the end.
Bikes are not the issue, it's the speed by some.
I was more focused on falling in mud or stepping in manure
My patient who ended her camino due to injury may have a different view though.

 

[brawblether]

I agree, I don't see any comments of hatred amongst the posts here, just frustration.

 

[newfydog]

I've seen idiot cyclists, flying down hills with no respect for the walkers---- the worst were some young Spanish cyclists guiding a tour!

I've also seen walking pilgrims deliberately block the path for cyclists. I had some British weirdo run up a hill along side of me screaming taunts.

Every garden has its weeds!

 

[dariosilva]

Cycled with my wife and kids (in their 20s) May-June 2012. Had no problem with pedestrians. We took paved roads most of the time but when on dirt paths with lots of walkers, we were quite aware of being courteous to walkers. Used bell and in passing wished all 'Buen Camino'. Walkers were eager to help when we had to walk our bikes up steep hills i.e Alto de Perdon. They would especially help my wife when they saw her huffing and puffing and walking her bike up a hill. Lots of 'need any help' when we were either stopped to fix a flat or re-track our chain. On the Maseta, groups of walkers tended to straddle the whole road. Surprising what getting off my bike and sharing bag full of freshly picked cherries with walkers can do for the spirit. My only complaint, although later became quite hilarious was the whistling at my 21 year old daughter and 58 year old wife as they would ride by groups of young European men. Great laugh at dinner time. I had a great time blasting down hills while on main roads. Would not have done this on trails with walkers, too dangerous for all of us. I also found auto drivers much more courteous towards bicyclist in Spain than they are in the USA. My thought is that there should be no problem between bicyclist, walkers, horse riders, etc if people keep the spirit of a pilgrimage in mind. Be mindful and remember that St. James was an apostle of Love.

 

[newfydog]

remember that St. James was an apostle of Love.

You mean when he wasn't chopping the heads off of Moors and riding his horse over them! Imagine what he could have done with a loaded bike We need to share the trail with the other, peaceful Santiago in mind!

 

[kbmmartin]

Walked the Camino this spring. I found cyclists to be quite attentive until we reached Sarria. Then many cyclists, especially the cyclists traveling in groups, to be extremely dangerous -- riding fast, weaving in and out of walkers with no warnings at all.

 

[TerryB]

I think this notice, which has recently appeared in our local park, is directed at the younger age group! Although it is on a long distance cycle route.
On the Camino one cyclist we saw used an old fashioned horn! a cheerful "parp parp" had everyone smiling and was loud enough for all to hear - not sure about users of MP3 players though, maybe they would miss the Last Trump :lol:

Blessings on your walking
Tio Tel

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Bicyclists can go virtually anywhere in Spain. However, much of the Camino is created for pedestrians. The senda has been designed to be wheelchair accessible. That said, mountain bikers are unwelcome guests, and I have never felt the need to accommodate them at my inconvenience. I am happy to share even the most bicycle inappropriate parts of the path at my pedestrian convenience. If the cyclists don't like that, there is always the nearby road, where they should be anyway. That is petty snarky, I agree, but that is the way I walk! If you don't like it, you may have to run over me. I promise litigation!!

 

[NoQ]

remember that St. James was an apostle of Love.

You mean when he wasn't chopping the heads off of Moors and riding his horse over them! Imagine what he could have done with a loaded bike We need to share the trail with the other, peaceful Santiago in mind!

That is such a magnificent sculpture

As for cyclists, I found them annoying at times, especially when one very nearly knocked me over when he approached without warning on the very narrow track between Hontanas and San Anton.

 

[newfydog]

much of the Camino is created for pedestrians. The senda has been designed to be wheelchair accessible. That said, mountain bikers are unwelcome guests, and I have never felt the need to accommodate them at my inconvenience. I am happy to share even the most bicycle inappropriate parts of the path at my pedestrian convenience. If the cyclists don't like that, there is always the nearby road, where they should be anyway. That is petty snarky, I agree, but that is the way I walk! If you don't like it, you may have to run over me. I promise litigation!!

Wow, have a bad day Falcon?

It seems to me much of the Camino was not designed for pedestrians or bike, but rather the local farmer's tractors. We are all guests on the trails, and welcome by regulations.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

 

[Olivares]

The vast majority of cyclists that I found on the Camino (French Way) have been courteous and safe operators. This past time on the Camino one cyclist even slowed down to tell me that he saw a black glove on the ground some yards back and to checked if I was missing one. Sure enough, I was. So kudos to this kind soul!

That said, I have to concur (in concept!) with falcon. Cyclists have the wonderful option of paved roads where they can speed at leisure. The pedestrianized Camino is not meant for speed riding , it is not meant for mountain bike riding. Cyclists should either not speed ride or take the (paved) road (no pun intended!).

 

[newfydog]

it is not meant for mountain bike riding. .

Actually, it is perhaps the finest long distance mountain bike trail in the world. I would rate it mediocre for walking.

I don't ride pavement if it is humanly possible to avoid it. I have had five good friends killed by cars.

 

[Olivares]

[Actually, it is perhaps the finest long distance mountain bike trail in the world.

No, it is not. The Camino is a pilgrimage trail, it WAS not meant to be and it is NOT meant to be a mountain bike trail more than it is meant for cars or mopeds. The diversity of terrain, soil, vegetation, and topography makes it perfect as a walking trail. We obviously have very different opinions on the subject. 8)

 

[newfydog]

[Actually, it is perhaps the finest long distance mountain bike trail in the world.

No, it is not. The Camino is a pilgrimage trail, it WAS not meant to be and it is NOT meant to be a mountain bike trail more than it is meant for cars or mopeds.)

Well it actually is, whether it was meant to be or not. You can't say it is not a great mountain bike route just because it is also a pilgrimage route. and a farm access route, etc. It is what it is.

I actually agree with you, that people who go more for the biking and hiking than the pilgrimage and history are missing the best of the route. We'll have to share it with them, whether we want to or not. Maybe we can open their eyes to the big picture with some interaction.

Check out these pictures, and tell me the roads were meant for walking pilgrims exclusively. One was built by the Romans before St James was born.

 

[fraluchi]

[...] mountain bikers are unwelcome guests, and I have never felt the need to accommodate them at my inconvenience. I am happy to share even the most bicycle inappropriate parts of the path at my pedestrian convenience. If the cyclists don't like that, there is always the nearby road, where they should be anyway.

The main problem with these discussions is that the aggressive (ignorant?) bikers are unlikely to be reading them on this forum. We are discussing symptoms and not the causes. There is little one can do when bikers are giving walkers a near miss and speed into the unknown. :mrgreen:

 

[newfydog]

And to further complicate it, what can you do when the offending cyclists are Spanish? I would not hesitate to suggest to a fellow Canadian or American that they behave with a bit more consideration, but just groan when I see Spanish cyclists bombing the trails. As a guest in their country, I don't feel it is my place to pass judgment.

27,000 pilgrims traveled by bike last year. Half of them were in their own country. Who are we to tell them they don't belong there?

 

[brawblether]

Who are we to tell them they don't belong there?

I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be there, just that they ought to respect walkers' space as much walkers need to respect a shared path.

 

[newfydog]

I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't be there,

Umm, what thread are you reading? I wish that a bit a respect for shared space was what they were posting

mountain bikers are unwelcome guests
there is always the nearby road, where they should be anyway
it WAS not meant to be and it is NOT meant to be a mountain bike trail

 

[marian55]

Maybe it would help if somebody designs a Camino bell with a special Camino sound...

 

[kcalpin]

It would be really nice if cyclists could give walkers a little notice by just saying "on your left or on your right". I had bikes come up on me very quickly without notice and it eas frightening. I think their is room for both cyclists and walking pilgrims on Thr Camino.

 

[Deleted member 12253]

Tiny number of people speak English on camino, less than 1 in 10, so this forum is redundant to most walkers and cyclists, I never had problems with cyclists but did with walkers, swinging walking poles, 4 or 5 abreast across path, one lady managed to open a big gash under the eye of another walker who had to go to hospital for 10 stitches, cyclists alway ring their bells and some even have whistles, live and let live, learn basic Spainish , you are in Spain. Buen camino

 

[Thornley]

Paddy , Paddy from Galway

What are you saying mate about only 9 people in every 100 speak english.
Are you mad mate?
Ivar will give you the countries and numbers from each who do the Camino Frances.
Please check these and if 80% don't speak english i will return [ after family left in 1852] to Ireland.

And there old mate you do have trouble understanding
Keep well,
David

 

[Deleted member 12253]

Hi thormley, I walked the camino Francis 6 times between 2010 and 2013, very few speak English, hello etc, I walked for 2 weeks in June 2011 without meeting any pilgrim who spoke english except a German with few words, I was only person in albergue out of 33 who spoke English. Come back to green isle, you have been away too long, slan agus beannacht .

 

[ZenPeregrino]

I tend to agree with newfydog. From a Buddhist perspective, our problems arise when we develop an attachment to a picture in our mind of how things are "supposed to be," rather than meeting reality as it arises and acknowledging the way things actually are. I'm on the Camino now and there are times when I am walking a path of solitude in a beautiful forest trail with birds singing, just as I had pictured it would be. There are other times when cyclists race past, or I am walking next to a giant industrial factory, or I am tired and it is raining and I am cold and hungry, and nothing seems mystical or spiritual at all. In those times I try to remember that those times are just as much "the Way" as the perfect forest moments. At least for me, that is one of the lessons I am learning more deeply on my Camino.

As always, each person walks their own Camino, and your mileage may vary.

Buen Camino,
ZP

 

[dariosilva]

Check history on St. James the Apostle. The depiction of St. James the Apostle on a horse wearing medieval clothing slaying Moors is a myth. The Christian slaying Moors actually carried relics of St James to help them in battle just like the Moors carried relics of their own for the same reason. St. James was beheaded in Jerusalem 700 years prior to the arrival of the Moors. The Visigoths occupied the Iberian Peninsula during the time of James.
Although Christian midrash reports James to have had a temper, Jesus still chose him as one of his 12 and later sent him out to teach others about Love. It is interesting to see how we still keep slaying each other. Who owns the trail, walkers, cyclist (mountain or touring), thieves, professional beggars, tourists, religious, spiritualist, Christians, non-christians, atheist.... All of us have favorite idea of how our pilgrimage should be and who should be on it. Maybe this is why we are drawn to St. James; so that he can help us deal with our anger issues and learn to be tolerant and forgiving.

 

[bbeatty]

I'm on the Camino Frances now and the only issue I've noticed with cyclists are ones that aren't really on the camino, they are locals using the paths. I had a pair that kept stopping and blocking me and the people behind us. They were local older gentlemen just bike riding with no sacks or bags...the people actually on the camino have been so good about warning with a bell or vocal.

 

[newfydog]

Check history on St. James the Apostle. The depiction of St. James the Apostle on a horse wearing medieval clothing slaying Moors is a myth. .

Myth, or miracle? According to reports he appeared on his white horse and chopped up the Moors. I won't tell people what they should believe.

At dawn, Christian troops, sure of their victory, attacked the Saracens. For the first time some Spaniards used “Santiago” as a war cry. In the heat of the battle, a great white knight, with a white banner on a white horse, struck the field like a ray of light, to tilt the victory on the crusaders’ side. On May 25, in the town of Calahorra, the king vowed to Santiago in gratitude, inviting all Christians in the peninsula to go on a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela, carrying offerings to the Apostle.

I'm going to get rid of my bell, Instead, I will charge down hills, crying "Santiago"!

 

[William Marques]

I tend to agree with newfydog. From a Buddhist perspective, our problems arise when we develop an attachment to a picture in our mind of how things are "supposed to be," rather than meeting reality as it arises and acknowledging the way things actually are. I'm on the Camino now and there are times when I am walking a path of solitude in a beautiful forest trail with birds singing, just as I had pictured it would be. There are other times when cyclists race past, or I am walking next to a giant industrial factory, or I am tired and it is raining and I am cold and hungry, and nothing seems mystical or spiritual at all. In those times I try to remember that those times are just as much "the Way" as the perfect forest moments. At least for me, that is one of the lessons I am learning more deeply on my Camino.

As always, each person walks their own Camino, and your mileage may vary.

Buen Camino,
ZP

+1 but remember cyclists have those moments too.

 

[carriedavey]

Having just returned from our camino, I have to say that (AT TIMES) some cyclists were less than courteous to other "camino users", but for the vast majority of the time we received a warning from them. let's not get too precious about it folks, some of we walkers have no room to talk about courtesy and politeness!

 

[t2andreo]

During my professional career I have been shot at, slashed, and stabbed. However the closest I have ever come to actually dying was during my first 10 days on the Camino Frances year. While walking, single file up Alto de Perdon on a wet and windy day in May my walking partner screamed "look out" at the top of her lungs while diving into the brush to the left (uphill). All I could do is bail out to the right and dig my Leki hiking pole in to prevent falling down the 45% plus slope. If you have been there you know what I am talking a about. My hiking pole curved like an archery bow to take my full weight, plus packand inertial force.At that moment, two day tripper mountain bikers (lots of spandex no Camino gear) blew by us. There was NO BELL, NO HORN, NO SHOUT - NOTHING resembling a warning - PERIOD.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Ha ha newfydog!
Double ha ha falcon!
You guys crack me up.

I used to not like bicigrinos on the Camino
But this year I decided to love them and so far,
I'm with Callea. They have been extra polite.
I have had no problems at all

In fact, I stuck out my thumb once and had an offer to ride to Santiago!

 

[markss]

I used to not like bicigrinos on the Camino
But this year I decided to love them and so far,
I'm with Callea. They have been extra polite.
I have had no problems at all

What a great reminder. Sometimes it is not the actions of others that need to change ... it's my own attitude!

 

[Pieces]

I find this such a strange discussion being used to the simple rule that the harder traffic always have the responsible to mind the softer...

that being said, it doesn't' give the softer party the right to behave like complete idiots...

 

[NicoZ]

Yes but the requirement of any vehicle driver (bikes are vehicles) is assuming those soft targets are idiots or worse. If a child runs out in front of you claiming the kid should have known better isn't much good.

 

[Pieces]

assuming they are idiots usually works

and some of them are, though my experience is that more bikes than pedestrians will do highly unexpected and potentially deadly things in traffic...

 

[William Marques]

assuming they are idiots usually works

and some of them are, though my experience is that more bikes than pedestrians will do highly unexpected and potentially deadly things in traffic...

Even in a bike friendly city like Copenhagen?

 

[Pieces]

maybe we are too friendly, some bikers think they are cars and immortal...

so, yes, we learn that when driving the harder vehicle we should always assume the softer ones are insane...