Message from the Roncesvalles albergue - a difficult day.

[Bradypus]

A message has just been posted on the Facebook account of the albergue in Roncesvalles. It seems the combination of pilgrim numbers beyond their capacity and poor weather has made this a difficult day.

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[CWBuff]

This may start another panic rumor that the wet pilgrims are freezing to death in Roncesvalles!
Which will probably trigger the by-pass of Roncesvalles and straight into Pamplona
Which will probably trigger a bed shortage in Pamplona....

Kermit The Frog would probably say - It's not easy to be a PereGREENo

Sad, and I am sure discouraging to some but I do hope and Pray that it is temporary and will work itself out reasonably fast

 

[VNwalking]

May there be energy and patience for all!
It sounds like a hospi nightmare.

 

[domigee]

It sounds like a hospi nightmare.

Yes and a nightmarish first day for some pilgrims...

 

[Saint Mike II]

My own experience in 2017 was that, quite correctly, Roncesvalles were admitting pilgrims in the order in which they had arrived (starting at 14.00). Given it was lunch time I opted to share a taxi with two girls needing first aid at Burguete and continued to Espinal. I had a warm shower, washed clothes and was enjoying a beer before 14.00. A smart move I thought!!

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I waited in line for a bed in 2019. It was a long line and until you got really close to the check-in area there was no where to sit and so it was an uncomfortable wait after an energetic walk.

One issue was that people arriving much later wanted to jump the queue so that they could register with their friends who had arrived much earlier.

Perhaps it is unfair to single out one nationality but everyone who asked me if they could queue jump had a US accent. My thoughts at the time were that Europeans and Antipodeans were used to queues whereas people from the US were not.

I declined every request to queue jump but other people in front of me who also had US accents were allowing people to queue jump.

The queue jumpers caused a lot of ill feeling.

I had been speaking with the young woman in front of me who was a US College student who had a reservation for a bed.

She allowed someone to queue jump in front of her and so I asked her why she had done that and her reply was that she had a reservation and so it made no difference to her.

I pointed out that I didn't have a reservation and it did matter to me and she was polite enough to decline further requests from queue jumpers.

 

[Kathar1na]

Just for info. It may be useful for one or the other pilgrim starting from SJPP in the next few days. I am happy to be corrected if factually not correct.

The bed allocation policy of the Roncesvalles albergue has changed over the years. Initially it was first come first served and booking (by email) was uncommon. Then they had a booking website created where 60 of their 189+ beds were available for booking and the rest was first come first served.

Then all the 189+ beds in the beautifully renovated albergue with their 4-bed cubicles were made available for booking. There are a number of "emergency" beds that cannot be booked, around a few dozens, in other parts of the building complex. This was their policy last year (2023), and it may be the same this year.

When you currently try to book a bed on their website for one night between 2-6 May (Thursday to Monday) you get the following message:

However, I happened to notice that often 2 or even more beds can become available again, presumably when there are cancellations. Currently, 2 beds are available for this Saturday, and about a dozen for Tuesday (7 May). Hence, it is worth checking the website from time to time if you are looking for accommodation there.

Buen Camino to all who start soon from SJPP!

 

[VNwalking]

It's a real pity they do not leave more beds in the renovated albergue for walk-ins. My opinion, of course, and I know not everyone will agree. But it forces everyone to play the book ahead game even if you don't want to. This is how the Camino culture changes, and not necessarily from the bottom up.

 

[Antnix1]

It's a real pity they do not leave more beds in the renovated albergue for walk-ins. My opinion, of course, and I know not everyone will agree. But it forces everyone to play the book ahead game even if you don't want to. This is how the Camino culture changes, and not necessarily from the bottom up.

Beats the bed race culture i suppose.

 

[Ianinam]

It is correct what Kathar1na posted, except the amount of bookable beds in Aterpea is a bit different in the renovated albergue: there are 183 beds.
Furthermore we have 32 beds in the sótano, and another 30 beds in the winter-albergue. These beds (32+30) are not bookable.
At the moment it is very, very busy. By 3.30/4.00 pm we have fullhouse every day and much to our regret we have to send many pilgrims away because we have no more beds. There are expensive beds in the hotels, and also 4-bed rooms in La Posada which of course can be shared with other pilgrims.
Indeed sometimes we have annulations, and if a late arrival in the evening for a reservated bed is not confirmed earlier that day by telephone, we are allowed to assign these reservated beds for walk-in pilgrims.

 

[geraldkelly]

Is 1 May the most popular day to start from Saint-Jean?

 

[bullingtonce]

A message has just been posted on the Facebook account of the albergue in Roncesvalles. It seems the combination of pilgrim numbers beyond their capacity and poor weather has made this a difficult day.

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A message has just been posted on the Facebook account of the albergue in Roncesvalles. It seems the combination of pilgrim numbers beyond their capacity and poor weather has made this a difficult day.

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My personal take of course, but do not see any problem or difficulty here--the Albergue staff is doing all they can to help and assist; life is never always smooth and always problem free and will never be; expectations ought to be kept reasonable; unpredictability is part of life. Help yourself and others and what be, will be. Fortunately, things in a rather difficult and challenging way always change.

 

[Ianinam]

Is 1 May the most popular day to start from Saint-Jean?

May 1st is a holiday in Spain and in France, so many Spanish and French people take a long weekend off and walk a few days. Furthermore: the first three weeks of May (and the first three weeks of September!) are always very, very busy.

 

[jungleboy]

It's a real pity they do not leave more beds in the renovated albergue for walk-ins. My opinion, of course, and I know not everyone will agree.

I agree that it would be nice to leave some beds for walk-ins.

But it forces everyone to play the book ahead game even if you don't want to.

Here’s the part I don’t get though. I understand why some pilgrims don’t want to book accommodation in advance in a general sense (play it by ear, see how far you want to walk as the day unfolds etc).

But Roncesvalles is a bit of a unique situation because there aren’t many alternative options to the albergue. So if you plan to stay at the albergue but don’t book it just because you don’t want to book, and then get turned away because you didn’t book, well, I think the smarter thing to do in this one instance is just to book. Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.

Just my opinion, naturally

 

[Bradypus]

Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.

I agree. Most of my Camino walking is done in winter and on quiet routes so booking is rarely necessary. But walking the Frances with a friend in September last year we found the pressure of numbers quite daunting and so we booked for SJPDP, Roncesvalles and Larrasoaña in advance then played it by ear after that.

 

[backpack45]

All I can say is that my first day was in Roncesvalles, back before the new facility was built. This was in 2001. I don't recall that anyone spoke English. The beds were full, people were setting up for the night on mats on the floor and there was no space for me to do so. Finally, a couple of people moved their bedding a bit and I was able to fit in. My husband ended up in a separate room. Needless to say, it was a difficult start. However, I survived, and we went on our way the next day. As our walk continued, we had a mix of experiences--some days were wonderful other days I was in tears. But somehow it was also life-changing and since then we had walked many thousand miles of other Camino route. I would never call walking the Camino a holiday--it's more like real life. Lots of ups and downs and you make of it what you will. Hopefully you will focus on the kindness and beauty and try to take the mishaps and obstacles in stride. Buen Camino!

 

[Ianinam]

But Roncesvalles is a bit of a unique situation because there aren’t many alternative options to the albergue. So if you plan to stay at the albergue but don’t book it just because you don’t want to book, and then get turned away because you didn’t book, well, I think the smarter thing to do in this one instance is just to book. Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.

Just my opinion, naturally

Couldn't agree more!
And there is another reason to book: if you make a reservation you'll have a bed in the renovated building, with the beds in 4-pods and lockers, good wifi.
For walk-in pilgrims we have (cheaper) beds in the sótano and in the winter-albergue, in the old building. No lockers, no individual charging station and socket for your phone, no or weak wifi ...

 

[Kathar1na]

Roncesvalles is a bit of a unique situation

Exactly, and especially for first time pilgrims who start in SJPP, for whatever reason. Experienced pilgrims on their second, third or more Camino can walk on when there is no bed or even plan to skip Roncesvalles from the start. For many first time pilgrims it is different: They will want to stay in Roncesvalles at then end of their first day because it is a special place that is important and meaningful to them and/or because they can't go one step further after a long and exhausting day. For them, it is not a question of "I want to feel free to stop where I feel like it" or "I'll walk another 5 km when I cannot find a bed". I don't understand why there would be a discussion about the book/not book topic in the special case of Roncesvalles.

 

[trecile]

would never call walking the Camino a holiday--it's more like real life.

I agree. There's always some who decry those who only walk the Camino as a "cheap holiday," but I think that people who really want a cheap holiday will camp on a beach somewhere, not do something as arduous as walking 20 - 30 km per day. To take on such an undertaking requires more determination and intention than choosing a relaxing holiday destination.

 

[VNwalking]

These beds (32+30) are not bookable.

Ah. Good to know! Thank you. And for all you do under sometimes difficult circumstances.

Playing the booking game once won’t change the spontaneous general nature of your whole camino or turn you into a different person. But it guarantees you a bed and most likely will relieve some stress.

True, enough.

Exactly, and especially for first time pilgrims who start in SJPP, for whatever reason.

Actually for we who are repeat offenders too. Roncesvalles is a uniquely special place. I'd hate to pass it were I walking that route.

 

[FourSeasons]

Perhaps it is unfair to single out one nationality but everyone who asked me if they could queue jump had a US accent. My thoughts at the time were that Europeans and Antipodeans were used to queues whereas people from the US were not.

It’s always unfair to single out any group because of a few bad apples. Seems a bit racist like stereotyping to me. We Americans are very familiar with queues perhaps just like every other nation under the sun. Standing in line (queue) is a daily pastime in America. Here’s a quick Google search. It refers to humans, as in all peoples. “Human beings spend approximately 6 months (could be more) of their lives waiting in line for things, it means like 3 days a year of queueing up.”

I understand your frustration as I too would have not allowed any queue jumpers regardless of their nationality.

---

 

[VNwalking]

Seems a bit racist to me

No. Not that. But stereotyping, perhaps.
As an American, I'm not offended though. I've lived overseas for a lot of years and it's my perception that Americans are more likely to feel entitled to cut in line than many other nationalities. Just my common experience.

 

[FourSeasons]

No. Not that. But stereotyping, perhaps.
As an American, I'm not offended though. I've lived overseas for a lot of years and it's my perception that Americans are more likely to feel entitled to cut in line than many other nationalities. Just my common experience.

You’re right, not racist. Thank you for the word that escaped me. Stereotyping. I’m not offended either but rather tired of Americans getting dragged through the mud because of a few classless individuals. Can the finger pointing stop? I’ve witnessed bad behavior from other non-Americans but I can manage to go about my business without smearing a nationality as a whole. Just today I’ve read two posts in two different threads here, on the forum that have bashed America. There are bad people in every nation under the sun.

 

[Kathar1na]

Erm … why are you discussing an observation that somebody made 5 years ago when waiting in line at the albergue in Roncesvalles? And in particular since these people, no matter what their accent was when speaking in English, apparently politely asked whether they could move ahead in the line and did not push through the crowd?

The albergue of Roncesvalles is a large albergue. Currently, the staff and volunteers help 300 pilgrims or more to find a place to sleep every single day: the 245 pilgrims who can stay with them and then all those who need a taxi to find a bed elsewhere or have to be told that they must walk on. And right now, a good 183 of these pilgrims had already made a reservation, and paid, for their stay at the albergue of Roncesvalles when they arrive.

That is the current situation that pilgrims are faced with at Roncesvalles, and some come unprepared because they did not know what it would be like during the first week of May.

 

[FourSeasons]

Erm … why are you discussing an observation that somebody made 5 years ago when waiting in line at the albergue in Roncesvalles? And in particular since these people, no matter what their accent was when speaking in English, apparently politely asked whether they could move ahead in the line and did not push through the crowd?

The answer to your question is in my post. Making a point, there is no need to stereotype anywhere, especially on this forum.

I haven’t read anything negative about Germans or the Irish, Aussies or Canadians, not even Koreans, or the local Spanards. But Americans are fair game?? NO!! It needs to stop.

 

[Molly Cassidy]

I haven’t read anything negative about Germans or the Irish, Aussies or Canadians, not even Koreans, or the local Spanards. But Americans are fair game?? NO!! It needs to stop.

I don't know about that. There were some comments about naked Germans not long ago!

 

[FourSeasons]

I don't know about that. There were some comments about naked Germans not long ago!

Perhaps but I’m sure it didn’t say anything about all Germans not knowing how to wear clothing while in public. The post I was replying to referred that Americans don’t know how to queue, not used to doing so. This based on their accents, not even fact.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

It’s always unfair to single out any group because of a few bad apples. Seems a bit racist like stereotyping to me. We Americans are very familiar with queues perhaps just like every other nation under the sun. Standing in line (queue) is a daily pastime in America. Here’s a quick Google search. It refers to humans, as in all peoples. “Human beings spend approximately 6 months (could be more) of their lives waiting in line for things, it means like 3 days a year of queueing up.”

I understand your frustration as I too would have not allowed any queue jumpers regardless of their nationality.

---

I am sure that you are correct.

However in 1982 I went to the Daytona speedway to watch the Daytona 200 motorcycle races. In a stroke of luck, Graeme Crosby (a Kiwi) won that year, riding a Yamaha. His team was managed by Giacomo Agostini who is/was my childhood hero and I got to meet Giacomo because I had a pit pass and I stalked him down .

Anyway, back to the subject, I purchased the pit pass over the phone (no Internet back then) and when I got to the raceway I had to find the place where I would pick it up from.

After asking a few people I found a queue of people outside the door that I thought was the correct one. I stood in line at the end of the queue but it didn't seem to be moving very fast and so I asked the guy in front of me "Is this the queue for pit passes?".

The guy looked at me as if I was from the Moon or something.

Of course, it could also have been my accent but I really, really got the idea that he had no idea what "queue" meant .

Eventually I said "Is this the line for pit passes" and got a "yes" out of him.

Of course, of course, it is really silly of me to generalise based on a single example.

I apologise.

 

[FourSeasons]

I am sure that you are correct.

However in 1982 I went to the Daytona speedway to watch the Daytona 200 motorcycle races. In a stroke of luck, Graeme Crosby (a Kiwi) won that year, riding a Yamaha. His team was managed by Giacomo Agostini who is/was my childhood hero and I got to meet Giacomo because I had a pit pass and I stalked him down .

Anyway, back to the subject, I purchased the pit pass over the phone (no Internet back then) and when I got to the raceway I had to find the place where I would pick it up from.

After asking a few people I found a queue of people outside the door that I thought was the correct one. I stood in line at the end of the queue but it didn't seem to be moving very fast and so I asked the guy in front of me "Is this the queue for pit passes?".

The guy looked at me as if I was from the Moon or something.

Of course, it could also have been my accent but I really, really got the idea that he had no idea what "queue" meant .

Eventually I said "Is this the line for pit passes" and got a "yes" out of him.

Of course, of course, it is really silly of me to generalise based on a single example.

I apologise.

No need to apologize, fun story. Honestly though, back in 1982 the only kiwi I knew of was the fruit in the grocery store, so yes we stand in lines, not queues. And technically, the naughty pilgrims cut the line, they didn’t jump it.

 

[David]

The last time I was there, to do first aid, it was packed, with some of the Dutch hospitelaros outside organising taxis to take distraught pilgrims down route to other places, including hotels.

I went inside and out the other side to see a coach appear with clean and energetic 'first day' tour group pilgrims arrive and then a minibus and van disgorged a party of cycling pilgrims, also fresh and 'first day'.

Later I asked the hospitelaros about this - they were unhappy, and told me that the diocese reserve a large number of places for these groups, almost like a hotel, which sometimes left them too few beds for those weary pilgrims who had just walked over the mountain.

It may have changed since then, but I doubt it.

 

[Antnix1]

The last time I was there, to do first aid, it was packed, with some of the Dutch hospitelaros outside organising taxis to take distraught pilgrims down route to other places, including hotels.

I went inside and out the other side to see a coach appear with clean and energetic 'first day' tour group pilgrims arrive and then a minibus and van disgorged a party of cycling pilgrims, also fresh and 'first day'.

Later I asked the hospitelaros about this - they were unhappy, and told me that the diocese reserve a large number of places for these groups, almost like a hotel, which left them too few beds for those weary pilgrims who had just walked over the mountain.

It may have changed since then, but I doubt it.

I know the galicia albergues don't permit reservations but technically have a pecking order.. i believe it goes disabled, walker, horseback, cyclist, with vehicle assistance, and finally first day.
Reservation systems can't capture the nuances.
Also ppl can lie and many hospitaleros won't argue.

 

[Ianinam]

The last time I was there, to do first aid, it was packed, with some of the Dutch hospitelaros outside organising taxis to take distraught pilgrims down route to other places, including hotels.

I went inside and out the other side to see a coach appear with clean and energetic 'first day' tour group pilgrims arrive and then a minibus and van disgorged a party of cycling pilgrims, also fresh and 'first day'.

Later I asked the hospitelaros about this - they were unhappy, and told me that the diocese reserve a large number of places for these groups, almost like a hotel, which left them too few beds for those weary pilgrims who had just walked over the mountain.

It may have changed since then, but I doubt it.

Yes, much to our regret it is like that. 183 of the 245 beds can be pre-booked, and in busy times (like these first weeks of May) they are all booked, every day. That is why I always recommend to make a reservation.
And yes, groups often prebook and sometimes they arrive with a minibus or they come with the regular bus from Pamplona.
And yes, we hospitaleros are very sad, every day, to have to send away the tired, exhausted, undercooled and wet pilgrims who actually walked over the mountain.
Believe me, this is by far the hardest job of the day, we are feeling really sad. But ... it is what it is ... if hundreds and hundreds of pilgrims arrrive without realising they walk in the busiest time of the year, we simply cannot provide everybody with a bed when there isn't.

 

[Bradypus]

But ... it is what it is ... if hundreds and hundreds of pilgrims arrrive without realising they walk in the busiest time of the year, we simply cannot provide everybody with a bed when there isn't.

Paying more attention to public holidays and planning travel dates to avoid them would prevent quite a lot of this hopefully short-lived issue. The May holiday is a permanent fixture and large numbers associated with it are nothing new and quite predictable. I remember seeing a post online earlier this year from someone puzzled why accommodation and transport should be in short supply on the weekend of 31 March. It seems that the concept of Easter simply hadn't occurred to them or they did not think it would be relevant to a pilgrimage journey.

 

[Kathar1na]

know the galicia albergues don't permit reservations but technically have a pecking order.. i believe it goes disabled, walker, horseback, cyclist, with vehicle assistance, and finally first day.
Reservation systems can't capture the nuances.
Also ppl can lie and many hospitaleros won't argue.

But Roncesvalles is not in Galicia and not subject to Galician pilgrim albergue rules, or is it?

Roncesvalles is special in many aspects. It is neither a parochial albergue nor a municipal albergue. Their "administration" or "Camino pilgrim policy maker" is neither the parish priest nor the townhall nor a local pilgrim association nor a foreign based pilgrim association. As far as I understand it, it is the Prior (they still have a prior at Roncesvalles) and it is the Archdiocese of Pamplona y Tudela (they own the property).

I guess that Roncesvalles is not only seen as the second stage post of a Camino Francés that starts in France, it is also seen as the starting point of a Camino de Santiago that starts in Spain.

The Roncesvalles booking website allows bookings for groups of up to 40 people.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I oversee operations at the municipal albergue in Najera. There is often a queue there during high season. We will sometimes move particular pilgrims to the front of the line -- elderly people, handicapped people, and those traveling with small children. It is rare to hear complaining, but it's usually the young and strong who whine the loudest!

 

[Pafayac]

nor a foreign based pilgrim association.

I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...

 

[Kathar1na]

I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...

I will leave it to @Ianinam to explain who sets the policy. As I understand it, the policy and organisational responsibilities are different than for example in the case of the Paderborn albergue in Pamplona or the Gaucelmo albergue in Rabanal. At Roncesvalles, they do accept people who arrive on buses. Who don't have to hide it and who don't have to lie about it.

 

[David]

I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...

No, they are volunteer hospitaleros and must obey the rules set by the diocese.

 

[Ianinam]

I was thinking that Roncesvalles albergue was run by a dutch pilgrim association...

No, the albergue belongs to the Real Colegiata de Santa Maria de Roncesvalles, and the prior is the final decision maker. The volunteers are all member of the 'Nederlands Genootschap van Sint Jacob' (Dutch Confraternity of Saint James), the largest Saint James association in the world (more than 15,000 members).

We are with approx. 135 volunteers working there from the beginning of March until the beginning of November, every two weeks in a new group of 8/9 hospitaleros. Some hospitaleros do this one year, other hospitaleros do this several years, and quite a lot hospitaleros come again and again, every year, sometimes twice a year. We train all new hospitaleros before they start the job, and every group consists of 4/5 experienced hospitaleros and 4/5 new hospitaleros, so after the training/introduction in the Netherlands new hospitaleros always work together with experienced hospitaleros.

 

[Antnix1]

But Roncesvalles is not in Galicia and not subject to Galician pilgrim albergue rules, or is it?

I was addressing points earlier in the thread, namely the pros and cons of a reservation system (someone earlier in the thread preferred more spaces for those who don't reserve), and the response i replied to indicating the opinion of the roncevalles volunteer hospitaleros.

If you genuinely thought i was suggesting that roncevalles is in galicia, well I'm sorry for the confusion.

My view is that any albergue or authority has 100% the right to implement whatever policy they want, and people are 100% entitled to have their opinion on those policies.

You go on to say Roncevalles is special. It is to many but there's nothing particularly special about the status of it that impacts on it's policy to allow bookings or not. This is easily demonstrated by the fact they changed their policy recently.

Fyi, when I stayed in Roncevalles i had booked in advance.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

there is ALWAYS a solution. Spain is a civilized country deeply invested in keeping pilgrims from freezing. If you're really stuck, use your AlertCops app to get help. You might not get the Instagram-ready suite you imagined, but you won't be left on the street.

 

[Bradypus]

Paying more attention to public holidays and planning travel dates to avoid them would prevent quite a lot of this hopefully short-lived issue.

An example of lack of planning. This post appeared on Facebook this evening. Someone who arrived in Santiago on a Saturday in the week of a major public holiday. Surprised to find that they cannot simply jump on a bus or train on a Sunday in a holiday week without reservations and be in Barcelona - 1000km away on the far side of Spain - tomorrow. And rather optimistically posting late in the day on an English-language group in the hope that a member might be driving there tomorrow and offer them a lift. I'm all for keeping travel plans flexible but there are practical limits...

 

[VNwalking]

I'm all for keeping travel plans flexible but there are practical limits.

Sheesh. Ignorance is not bliss in this context.

Edit: but on reflection it's easy to understand in the camino context. Anyone walking without booking probably knows how quickly one can get into the timeless zone. I can completely lose track of what day of the week it is and the date.

 

[David Tallan]

I will leave it to @Ianinam to explain who sets the policy. As I understand it, the policy and organisational responsibilities are different than for example in the case of the Paderborn albergue in Pamplona or the Gaucelmo albergue in Rabanal. At Roncesvalles, they do accept people who arrive on buses. Who don't have to hide it and who don't have to lie about it.

I will admit that in 2016, with my son, we arrived in Roncesvalles by bus and stayed there. We were coming from Pamplona and starting from Roncesvalles. I don't think they were turning people away that day in July, though. I also started from Roncesvalles in 1989, but didn't stay there, just picked up my credencial and started off right away.

 

[Bradypus]

I also started from Roncesvalles in 1989, but didn't stay there, just picked up my credencial and started off right away.

I started from SJPDP in August 1990 and picked up a credencial in Roncesvalles too. I spent the night there. At the pilgrim mass that night there were 7 priests and a server in the sanctuary and a congregation of 8 - with 3 pilgrims including myself receiving a blessing. There may have been a few more pilgrims about the place as I seem to remember there being 9 in the dormitory that night - the largest number of pilgrims I saw in one place for the whole journey.

 

[David Tallan]

There may have been a few more pilgrims about the place as I seem to remember there being 9 in the dormitory that night - the largest number of pilgrims I saw in one place for the whole journey.

It was a bottleneck, even then.

 

[Margaret Butterworth]

On the topic of long queues to get into the Albergue at Roncesvalles: this is my observation: I was there a few years ago, cold and tired and with a reservation. The problem was that only ONE official was processing people. This accounted for the slow-moving queue. The volunteers could do nothing but sympathise with us.

 

[Anniesantiago]

On the topic of long queues to get into the Albergue at Roncesvalles: this is my observation: I was there a few years ago, cold and tired and with a reservation. The problem was that only ONE official was processing people. This accounted for the slow-moving queue. The volunteers could do nothing but sympathise with us.

That was my experience two years ago. We stood out the cold for the longest time waiting.

 

[Ianinam]

On the topic of long queues to get into the Albergue at Roncesvalles: this is my observation: I was there a few years ago, cold and tired and with a reservation. The problem was that only ONE official was processing people. This accounted for the slow-moving queue. The volunteers could do nothing but sympathise with us.

This has changed since May last year. Before that date, we only had one scanner for the passports/ID-cards, so only one pilgrim at a time could be checked-in and this takes a lot of time. Last year a second scanner was installed, so in busy times we now have two check-in desks.
Scanning the passports/ID-cards is mandatory for the Guardia Civil.
And older people from Italy often still have an old fashioned paper ID, which cannot be scanned; then we have to enter the date of their ID in ther computer by hand. If you have a group of 12 Italian people you can imagine how much time this takes!

 

[Anniesantiago]

This has changed since May last year. Before that date, we only had one scanner for the passports/ID-cards, so only one pilgrim at a time could be checked-in and this takes a lot of time. Last year a second scanner was installed, so in busy times we now have two check-in desks.
Scanning the passports/ID-cards is mandatory for the Guardia Civil.
And older people from Italy often still have an old fashioned paper ID, which cannot be scanned; then we have to enter the date of their ID in ther computer by hand. If you have a group of 12 Italian people you can imagine how much time this takes!

I have been booking myself in several apartments where they use some app which allows me to scan my own passport in. Maybe they should look into something like that- it may make things go a little quicker? They don’t give me the key or the door code until they get the passport scan and a selfie.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Pilgrims need to remember they are not customers. Nobody owes them anything, including a trouble-free breezy check-in, or even a bed. The people working at Roncesvalles are volunteers, and should be treated with respect and kindness, no matter who else is in line.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Pilgrims need to remember they are not customers. Nobody owes them anything, including a trouble-free breezy check-in, or even a bed. The people working at Roncesvalles are volunteers, and should be treated with respect and kindness, no matter who else is in line.

Of course staff should be treated with respect at all times, whether paid or volunteers, but surely pilgrims are paying guests, assuming they have a reservation, and therefore customers? What are they then? Sorry if I am missing something?

 

[Pafayac]

"Customer requires
Pilgrim thanks"

It is not because you are paying that you are a customer.
You become a customer when you pay a sufficient amount to give benefit to the provider.

 

[davejsy]

Pilgrims need to remember they are not customers.

I agree with this - if the Albergue is operating on some kind of not-for-profit basis. You are a guest.

But anywhere that is operating on a pre-booking basis to maximise profit is automatically providing a service where the person booking is a customer.

Turning away someone who's walked 26km over a mountain range in favour of having the maximum amount of beds pre-booked by people who potentially haven't even walked there is not really in the spirit of what I think/thought the Camino is/was.

But I am a hopeless romantic and am prepared to be shot down.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

But anywhere that is operating on a pre-booking basis to maximise profit is automatically providing a service where the person booking is a customer.

I agree, but I do not believe that that is the case here. As I understand it Roncesvalles does not aim to maximize profit, simply to ensure that they meet their costs whilst providing a much needed service to Pilgrims. If profit was the key motivation they would hardly be attracting volunteers to staff it.

And pilgrims come in many shapes and forms, including those that arrive by vehicle.

I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.

I do understand your sentiment, I too would much prefer that preference was given to those who had walked rather than arrive as part of a transported group. Who could just as easily be transported elsewhere. (I'm sure there are many reasons for this).

 

[davejsy]

I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.

This is where my maximise profits comment came from, which granted does sound a bit too corporate and could have been better worded. Like you say there could be many reasons for this, and maybe it's a necessity to cover their costs. It just doesn't seem in the spirit of what I can only assume Roncesvalles was originally there for.

 

[Bradypus]

I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.

There has been a very marked change in approach in recent years. People have become far more risk-averse and unwilling to walk without reservations - often months in advance and for every night of their walk. And so often we read that the places which do not accept reservations have spare beds while many are still anxious about no availability on booking websites. We regularly see panicky posts from people unable to find timetables online or make bookings months in advance even for local trains and bus services between Santiago and Sarria. It seems that having larger amounts of information and services available online is a two-edged sword: it provides people the opportunity to make their travel arrangements independently but it also seems to foster anxiety and the desire to micro-manage every aspect of their journey in advance. Perhaps those running the Roncesvalles albergue have calculated that if they do not accept reservations and only offer beds on a first come, first served basis then the worried and inexperienced will simply book elsewhere or decide not to walk at all?

 

[davejsy]

Perhaps those running the Roncesvalles albergue have calculated that if they do not accept reservations and only offer beds on a first come, first served basis then the worried and inexperienced will simply book elsewhere or decide not to walk at all?

Maybe there is a degree of that, but the impression I've got from the some of the above responses is that a large percentage of people booking are not those that are walking from SJPdP, but people and groups who are arriving by bus etc to start at Roncesvalles.

If this is the case then it also begs the question of how many of these people who stay there actually have any intention of walking the path as opposed to what is in effect having a cheap overnight stay at Roncesvalles and all that entails (mass, pilgrim meal etc).

 

[Bradypus]

@davejsy Roncesvalles has traditionally been regarded as the starting point of the Camino Frances by Spanish pilgrims - though these days the numbers who do actually begin their walk there are fairly small. It probably would never occur to most Spanish pilgrims to travel to SJPDP just to turn around and walk back over the hills into Spain. I don't think it is unreasonable that Roncesvalles should accommodate people who arrive there by vehicle to begin a walking pilgrimage the following morning. I think that very few of those who turn up at Roncesvalles by vehicle would be using the albergue as the base for a cheap holiday locally or just to experience the albergue.

 

[Ianinam]

Reservations are made by all sorts of pilgrims; many, many pilgrims walking from SJPdP, but also pilgrims starting their camino in Roncesvalles (arriving by bus from Pamplona: Spanish pilgrims but also pilgrims from all over the world who came to Pamplona by train, plane, bus), sometimes groups of Spanish schoolchildren (like yesterday we had 77 16-17 year old teenagers with their teachers), groups of scouts, church groups ... And the next morning we say Buen Camino to them all, when they walk away from the Monastry.
The prior of the Colegiata believes it is not for us to judge who is, and who is not a 'real' pilgrim.
Anyone with a Credential is welcome in the albergue according to good Christian traditions.

 

[davejsy]

It probably would never occur to most Spanish pilgrims to travel to SJPDP just to turn around and walk back over the hills into Spain. I don't think it is unreasonable that Roncesvalles should accommodate people who arrive there by vehicle to begin a walking pilgrimage the following morning.

I'm not suggesting they be banned if they don't walk from SJPdP, only that the current system for bed booking/allocation leaves little room for those who actually need the accommodation most.

though these days the numbers who do actually begin their walk there are fairly small

This would not seem to be the case given it seems a large number of the bookings are not people walking from SJPdP.

@Ianinam who is a current volunteer there:

And yes, groups often prebook and sometimes they arrive with a minibus or they come with the regular bus from Pamplona.
And yes, we hospitaleros are very sad, every day, to have to send away the tired, exhausted, undercooled and wet pilgrims who actually walked over the mountain.

 

[C clearly]

those who actually need the accommodation most

They only "need" it so much because they insist on starting from SJPP to fufill an artificial criteria. Since accommodation is so limited, it makes sense to have it reserved, and if you don't get it, start further down the line where availability is better.

 

[Ianinam]

Spanish pilgrims are approx. 25% of the total of pilgrims who sleep in Roncesvalles.

 

[Bradypus]

They only "need" it so much because they insist on starting from SJPP to fufill an artificial criteria. Since accommodation is so limited, it makes sense to have it reserved, and if you don't get it, start further down the line where availability is better.

If albergues should only offer beds to those who have walked some significant distance to get there then no-one would be able to spend the night in one before beginning their pilgrimage. Should the albergues in SJPDP refuse people who did not walk there from Ostabat or Bayonne? Or the Sarria ones insist that people start in Triacastela? How far back down the line would that logic lead? All the main starting points are essentially arbitrary.

 

[OldHands]

If albergues should only offer beds to those who have walked some significant distance to get there then no-one would be able to spend the night in one before beginning their pilgrimage

If you decide to start your Camino del Norte in Deba, they will not let you stay at their municipal albergue - unless you have walked for at least one stage. This is their policy: the first night in private accommodation. They will even ask you to show the pictures you took on the way to Deba to prove you haven't arrived from your previous albergue by train, bus or a taxi, but walked there.

 

[David Tallan]

I'm not sure why Roncesvalles changed their policy to allow bookings, let alone such a high percentage but I'm certain that they had very good reasons for doing so.

Maybe they changed their policy so that people who are not as fit, and not capable of racing across the Pyrenees, could still stay there in the busy season and could walk at their own pace.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Maybe they changed their policy so that people who are not as fit, and not capable of racing across the Pyrenees, could still stay there in the busy season and could walk at their own pace

An excellent point.

 

[EmmaHikes]

For those are you that are wondering how it’s looking further down the Camino (and apologies if anyone has given an update already). Arrived in Burgos today at 5pm due to a long journey. The public albergue right by the cathedral is busy but not full - I easily still got a spot.

 

[EmmaHikes]

Another update - hornillos was very busy and multiple people couldn’t find any beds and were sent onwards. The next stop down also didn’t have beds so I don’t know where they ended up finding spaces.

After running to get a bed today I’ve actually made the decision to hike and travel tomorrow and commence the Camino Norte as it’s just looking rather busy.

 

[CWBuff]

The World went upside down!
In 3-days everyone will abandon CF and commence CN....
PS!
and then the reverse happens but probably good for thos who is coming up behind on CF

 

[EmmaHikes]

The World went upside down!
In 3-days everyone will abandon CF and commence CN....
PS!
and then the reverse happens but probably good for thos who is coming up behind on CF

Right you are! I’ve slept on it and decided to come into the Norte at llanes - when the primitivo then comes up on the left I’ll either take that or continue Norte based on how I’m feeling and other pilgrims. At least gives me a choice

 

[jungleboy]

They will even ask you to show the pictures you took on the way to Deba to prove you haven't arrived from your previous albergue by train, bus or a taxi, but walked there.

What if you didn’t take any pictures?

(Because it was raining / you don’t have a camera/smartphone / you are not a picture-taking type / you didn’t see anything that merited a photo etc)

Maybe they should smell you up and down instead?

 

[jungleboy]

It just doesn't seem in the spirit of what I can only assume Roncesvalles was originally there for.

Isn’t the original spirit to provide shelter for pilgrims? Is that now invalidated because they allow reservations? I wouldn’t have thought so, personally.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

What if you didn’t take any pictures?

(Because it was raining / you don’t have a camera/smartphone / you are not a picture-taking type / you didn’t see anything that merited a photo etc)

Maybe they should smell you up and down instead?

My understanding is that they do this because the Albergue is very near the train station. They apparently have had a significant issue with a large number of people arriving by train and claiming shelter, including tourists who actually are not walking at all but have a credential.

A quick check revealed a recent post on Google Maps reviews which proves this policy: they initially refused entry to a woman because she arrived by train (she says she decided not to walk part? of the stage because of rain). She had to prove that she had previously been walking (photos, as mentioned above) .

I'm certain I have read about this on other threads over the past year.

 

[davejsy]

Isn’t the original spirit to provide shelter for pilgrims? Is that now invalidated because they allow reservations? I wouldn’t have thought so, personally.

You are off course correct. My original post was in response to the volunteer working there who said how upsetting it is that they have to turn away cold and tired pilgrims who have walked over the Pyrenees due to lack of beds, with a large majority booked up by tour groups arriving by bus to start from there.

 

[Mananath]

Right you are! I’ve slept on it and decided to come into the Norte at llanes - when the primitivo then comes up on the left I’ll either take that or continue Norte based on how I’m feeling and other pilgrims. At least gives me a choiceigj

Might be too late for this, but I would start a stage or two before llanes. The section between La Franca and Llanes was some of my favorite, for sheer beauty, on the Norte. Note, this was on the alternate route that runs closer to the the coast than the official Camino route. I would encourage you to use the mapy.cz app for the Norte as it has alternate routes which was much more enjoyable than the official route.

 

[Mananath]

Right you are! I’ve slept on it and decided to come into the Norte at llanes - when the primitivo then comes up on the left I’ll either take that or continue Norte based on how I’m feeling and other pilgrims. At least gives me a choice

Also, you could walk to Oviedo and then decide there to continue on the Primitivo or walk back to the Norte (avoiding the Gijon - Aves) section. This will add a day but I found it worthwhile.

 

[OldHands]

My understanding is that they do this because the Albergue is very near the train station. They apparently have had a significant issue with a large number of people arriving by train and claiming shelter, including tourists who actually are not walking at all but have a credential.

What if you didn’t take any pictures

Maybe they should smell you up and down instead?

Deba has always been a bottleneck and they are trying to save beds for pilgrims who arrive very tired after an exhausting stage. You can read negative comments on Gronze and Google Maps left by those who were refused a bed. "Tourigrinos" who abuse pilgrim hostels are much common on Camino del Norte than other caminos because of the seaside location of many albergues.

 

[William Garza]

Blessings on the Hospitaleros and staffers for their giving hearts. It must be hard to have to say no and that the pilgrims have to move on

 

[EmmaHikes]

Might be too late for this, but I would start a stage or two before llanes. The section between La Franca and Llanes was some of my favorite, for sheer beauty, on the Norte. Note, this was on the alternate route that runs closer to the the coast than the official Camino route. I would encourage you to use the mapy.cz app for the Norte as it has alternate routes which was much more enjoyable than the official route.

Thanks for the tip by the way - ended up doing this. Norte is super quiet, all albergues half full, very nice crowd!

 

[Margaret Butterworth]

If 25% of people staying at Roncesvalles (as suggested above), then it seems likely that they have NOT walked over the mountain, but arrived by some kind of transport.

 

[Kathar1na]

If 25% of people staying at Roncesvalles (as suggested above) (as suggested above), then it seems likely that they have NOT walked over the mountain, but arrived by some kind of transport.

25% of people?

What @Ianinam wrote is that Spanish pilgrims are approx. 25% of the total of pilgrims who sleep in Roncesvalles. She wrote anyway that individuals and groups arrive in Roncesvalles by motorised transport to start walking from Roncesvalles, so this is not in dispute.

But all these figures and percentages (one should always clearly state the base that a percentage refers to), while interesting, are fairly irrelevant for those who don't get a bed on peak days. They need to inform themselves about the fact that there are peak days and when they are likely to occur, and then either avoid walking from SJPP to Roncesvalles on such days or make arrangements for various scenarios - do I book an albergue bed, do I arrive super early, am I able to walk on, will I be severely disappointed or happy to take a taxi to a bed elsewhere.

People do start from Roncvesvalles; they are not "second class" pilgrims and those who walked from SJPP are not "first class" pilgrims with privileged access to beds at this iconic place with its fame and history. The issue are a few days or weeks per year when demand outstrips supply but there are taxis and buses to meet the demand for beds for the night. Why are there not more beds to be had in Roncesvalles? I don't know. Some years ago, there was talk of renovating a wing of the building where the current albergue is and also turn it into pilgrim accommodation. I guess that the proprietor (diocese) either sees no urgent need or does not have the funds for such a project. I vaguely remember that they were still paying off the mortgage for the major renovation work that had been undertaken at the beginning of this century or so.

For what it is worth, the Bureau d'Accueil in SJPP published their pilgrim numbers for January-April 2024 by nationality. The list is available on their Facebook page.

 

[Bradypus]

For what it is worth, the Bureau d'Accueil in SJPP published their pilgrim number for Jan-April 2024 by nationality. It is available on their Facebook page.

Just been looking at the statistics posted this morning. The number of Koreans who choose to walk the Frances in winter continues to surprise me - must have been at least 1/3 of the pilgrims I met in January 2023. I was also surprised at the number of Spanish pilgrims recorded. Perhaps they are coming to share in the belief that SJPDP is somehow special and the "real" start of the Camino Frances?

 

[Kathar1na]

I was also surprised at the number of Spanish pilgrims recorded. Perhaps they are coming to share in the belief that SJPDP is somehow special and the "real" start of the Camino Frances?

I guess that it is much simpler: Many peregrin@s these days will start where their Camino guidebook or their Camino app for the Camino Francés starts. And the idea of "walking over the Pyrenees" may also be attractive to those who live on the south side of this mountain range as it is for those who live far away to the east or west around the globe, i.e. neither north or south of the Pyrenees.

The Gronze.com website starts in SJPP; so does the Spanish Buen Camino app; and I guess so do other Spanish guidebooks like those by A. Pombo - I'd be curious to know, I can't see it online, the blurb only says that C. Navarro and C. Aragones are included.

 

[Bradypus]

The Gronze.com website start in SJPP; so does the Spanish Buen Camino app; and I guess so do other Spanish guidebooks like those by A. Pombo - I'd be curious to know, I can't see, the blurb only says that C. Navarro and C. Aragones are included.

There is a preview of a few pages available on his publisher's website. Including a contents page. Pombo does start his coverage of the Navarra route from SJPDP. Interestingly he follows the example of the 1980s Valiña guidebook and describes the Aragones route first.

https://www.guiasdeviajeanaya.es/guia/camino-de-santiago/el-camino-de-santiago-camino-frances-2-volumenes/

 

[trecile]

Why are there not more beds to be had in Roncesvalles?

I think that the answer is in your previous sentence.

The issue are a few days or weeks per year when demand outstrips supply but there are taxis and buses to meet the demand for beds for the night

They probably don't see the need to go to that expense for a relatively few days of the year. It might be something that they will need to revisit if numbers from SJPdP continue to rise.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

There is a preview of a few pages available on his publisher's website. Including a contents page. Pombo does start his coverage of the Navarra route from SJPDP. Interestingly he follows the example of the 1980s Valiña guidebook and describes the Aragones route first.

View attachment 170092

https://www.guiasdeviajeanaya.es/guia/camino-de-santiago/el-camino-de-santiago-camino-frances-2-volumenes/

He does that because the Aragonese pilgrim route predates the St. Jean/Roncesvalles one. The pilgrim shelter/monastery in Roncesvalles was founded by monks from the monastery at Santa Cristina de Somport, the Camino pilgrim center cited by Codex Calixtinus as equal to Rome or Jerusalem. Back in the day, Everybody walked over the pass at Somport and hung a right at Jaca -- what we call the Camino Aragonese. The ruins of Sta Cristina are still up there, a sad remnant of their former glory.