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Also three shots of orujo blanco (before breakfast, lunch and dinner) per day can't do any harm. On the contrary
Agree. Beer is liquid food anyway and much more than breakfast drinkYep, but I prefer Hierbas. And don't bother eating. Eating can be dodgy. Honest.
Davey
If God didn’t intend us to drink beer, she wouldn't have invented it.Agree. Beer is liquid food anyway and much more than breakfast drink
I believe there will come a dayI told you, Kinky, that that you and Davey should walk a camino together.
The Sevilliano refuse collectors seem to go for three shots before breakfast (and before operating unguarded heavy machinery) with no apparent ill effects.Also three shots of orujo blanco (before breakfast, lunch and dinner) per day can't do any harm. On the contrary
I believe there will come a day
Gin works too - as I discovered on my first CaminoYep, but I prefer Hierbas. And don't bother eating. Eating can be dodgy. Honest.
It happened to me and several others I met in September 2018 - almost all of those, including me, seem to have drunk, stupidly perhaps, from water fountains near Carrion de los Condes. While I was staying at an albergue there, they had quarantined off a complete dormitory block due to an outbreak of a gastrointestinal type infection (according to the nuns who run the albergue). But the others I met who had similar symptoms were staying at different albergues.Don’t know if this topic has already been beat to death but here goes. When I walked CF this Spring there were several peregrinos and even an albergue volunteer who said that it was well-known that some of the tap water in towns between Burgos and Leon is contaminated. This came up when a very fit and very healthy friend came down suddenly with a “stomach flu”. She was taken to the hospital in Burgos and given IV hydration and meds. She recovered and in 3-4 days was back on and finished. I was just wondering if people were just talking about the water or if this truly is a thing?
In April I became very sick from eating or drinking something in Carrion de los Condes. I also ended up in a clinic with an IV drip. I recovered after 2-3 days of resting.Don’t know if this topic has already been beat to death but here goes. When I walked CF this Spring there were several peregrinos and even an albergue volunteer who said that it was well-known that some of the tap water in towns between Burgos and Leon is contaminated. This came up when a very fit and very healthy friend came down suddenly with a “stomach flu”. She was taken to the hospital in Burgos and given IV hydration and meds. She recovered and in 3-4 days was back on and finished. I was just wondering if people were just talking about the water or if this truly is a thing?
It happened to me and several others I met in September 2018 - almost all of those, including me, seem to have drunk, stupidly perhaps, from water fountains near Carrion de los Condes. While I was staying at an albergue there, they had quarantined off a complete dormitory block due to an outbreak of a gastrointestinal type infection (according to the nuns who run the albergue). But the others I met who had similar symptoms were staying at different albergues.
My advice: bottled water only, no ice in drinks!
I'll probably get shot down for this post, but it's just my opinion, that I hope will help someone avoid what happened to me and many others.
It happened to me and several others I met in September 2018 - almost all of those, including me, seem to have drunk, stupidly perhaps, from water fountains near Carrion de los Condes. While I was staying at an albergue there, they had quarantined off a complete dormitory block due to an outbreak of a gastrointestinal type infection (according to the nuns who run the albergue). But the others I met who had similar symptoms were staying at different albergues.
My advice: bottled water only, no ice in drinks!
I'll probably get shot down for this post, but it's just my opinion, that I hope will help someone avoid what happened to me and many others.
Ok, very funny. I must admit I was expecting to get shot down worse than that.I got sick from tap water on a Saturday once so I never drink water on Saturdays now just to be safe.
Not really, I live in Spain and I've travelled all over Spain during more than 7 years. I've also been travelling back and forth to Spain since the 60s. There are places where water is not good quality. Some people, including locals, are more resistant to the waterborne bacteria, newcomers might not be.It's much more likely you had the stomach flu from being exposed to someone with the flu.
The water in Spain is excellent.
Not really, I live in Spain and I've travelled all over Spain during more than 7 years. I've also been travelling back and forth to Spain since the 60s. There are places where water is not good quality. Some people, including locals, are more resistant to the water born bacteria, newcomers might not be.
Some areas have very hard water others don't. Some water comes from mountain reservoir sources and others from coastal salt desalination plants. Some water has higher chlorine levels than others - I know, in 5 years from 2005 to 2010 I used to measure it as part of my job. I installed mains water treatment systems in a chain of health clubs, mainly to reduce risk of legionella.
Besides my own experience, what makes me a bit suspicious is the number of people I met at the time, and that I've heard of since, which appear to report almost identical symptoms and from the same place: Carrion de los Condes. There has to be a reason for that, surely. Or is it just coincidence do you think?
Then how do you explain the commonalities, such as drinking water from fountains near Carrion de los Condes and the quarantine in an albergue there? I think it's likely that there was contaminated water from somewhere rather than dirty hands transmitting a bug from arse to mouth. Could also have been vegetables or other foods rinsed with contaminated water. The same thing happens in the U.S. as shown by the numerous contaminations of packaged salads. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.I have drank countless litres of tap and fountain water while walking the Camino. Have never had any ill effects from it. The rumours you heard are no doubt BS.
Certainly do not buy bottled water. Waste of money and terrible for the environment.
A virus seems more likely.Then how do you explain the commonalities, such as drinking water from fountains near Carrion de los Condes and the quarantine in an albergue there? I think it's likely that there was contaminated water from somewhere rather than dirty hands transmitting a bug from arse to mouth. Could also have been vegetables or other foods rinsed with contaminated water. The same thing happens in the U.S. as shown by the numerous contaminations of packaged salads. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
Yeah, makes sense to me. They cleaned it up with paper towels??? The thing is I had a feeling on arrival that something was a miss when they mentioned the quarantined dorm. But at that point I was too tired to go elsewhere. In the end I just took it on the chin, and in other places ;-)Marky, I think it is coincidence. Too many pilgrims do NOT get sick in those places. The sickest I've been along the Camino was in Sahagun, and once in another village (Calzadilla de la Cueza) where a woman with a high fever refused to go to a private lodging. In that case, a week up the road, there were many pilgrims who were sick who had been exposed the two days she stayed there, upon investigating. I'd probably be looking at where those people ate or if there were people with the flu in the lodgings where they stayed within 3 days.
I have heard that when people vomited in the albergue in Carrion, that the hospitaleras cleaned it up with paper towels, not disinfectants. This could explain a lot if the place isn't being cleaned properly.
I agree, some people may be less resistant. Those people probably know who they are. But I just don't think it's an issue to worry about. I'd be more worried drinking the water in Fresno, California or even Hanford, where my mother lives, due to the chemicals that have been slathered on the land for generations.
But that's me.
It seems that the reason to quarantine a dorm would be because there were pilgrims with a virus, not because of a waterborne illness.Yeah, makes sense to me. They cleaned it up with paper towels??? The thing is I had a feeling on arrival that something was a miss when they mentioned the quarantined dorm. But at that point I was too tired to go elsewhere. In the end I just took it on the chin, and in other places ;-)
It was one of those Camino lessons I was due, and it kind of had its blessing a few days later.
I might be passing by Carrion de los Condes around 8th September, but my gut instinct (pardon the pun) will be to not stop there. This will mean a 16.5km walk until next village, Calzadilla de la Cueza. Or maybe I should drink the water in Carrion before carrying on, as a kind of mad pilgrim experiment.
Makes sense too, but not sure what they meant by quarantined anyway. It was off limits, put it that way. Maybe I was just unlucky or it was just my turn to get something nasty. Even so, I will approach Carrion de los Condes with extra care next time I'm passing through.It seems that the reason to quarantine a dorm would be because there were pilgrims with a virus, not because of a waterborne illness.
Absolutely agree. I have been drinking the water in Spain off and on for 48 years, and no ill-effects yet. I walked Burgos-Leon this year with the same result. However, I think some people are more sensitive to "foreign" water than others.I have drank countless litres of tap and fountain water while walking the Camino. Have never had any ill effects from it. The rumours you heard are no doubt BS.
Certainly do not buy bottled water. Waste of money and terrible for the environment.
Makes sense too, but not sure what they meant by quarantined anyway. It was off limits, put it that way. Maybe I was just unlucky or it was just my turn to get something nasty. Even so, I will approach Carrion de los Condes with extra care next time I'm passing through.
Then how do you explain the commonalities, such as drinking water from fountains near Carrion de los Condes and the quarantine in an albergue there? I think it's likely that there was contaminated water from somewhere rather than dirty hands transmitting a bug from arse to mouth. Could also have been vegetables or other foods rinsed with contaminated water. The same thing happens in the U.S. as shown by the numerous contaminations of packaged salads. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
Good tip, thanks. I've noticed that Efren Gonzalez uses something similar on his regular Camino walks for his vlogs on YouTube.I have had no problems drinking tap water or water from public fountains in Spain on any of my caminos. When I walk on other routes where safe treated water is unavailable or public supplies are suspect then I use one of these very small filters which can be attached to a standard plastic drinks bottle. Been using it a great deal this year in Japan, Australia and rural Wales and so far have avoided any serious gut issues. While I believe that it is unnecessary on the main Caminos I think it is a better option for those who are still anxious about water quality than relying solely on bottled water which seems extremely wasteful and expensive.
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Something like a norovirus. Bunch of people sharing facilities such as bathrooms and kitchens. Questionable hygiene habits. Lots of grubby pilgrims on the Camino. Some downright skid row looking.Then how do you explain the commonalities, such as drinking water from fountains near Carrion de los Condes and the quarantine in an albergue there? I think it's likely that there was contaminated water from somewhere rather than dirty hands transmitting a bug from arse to mouth. Could also have been vegetables or other foods rinsed with contaminated water. The same thing happens in the U.S. as shown by the numerous contaminations of packaged salads. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
Point taken, good practical advice, thank you.Maybe this will be helpful, maybe not, but the crowd here is ever-changing though the Meseta and Carrion reps both keep getting smacked around.
I'm a former medical microbiologist and have experience on epidemiology teams. That's on top of 5 years of hospital work. I am NOT presenting an 'argument from authority' - - just establishing that I have some experience with the topic. And, it goes beyond "professional engagement" as I have had virtually every food or waterborne illness common to the Northern Hemisphere at least once. But NEVER on the Camino despite exclusive use of fountains for drinking water.
On multiple Caminos I have seen the "tummy bugs" strike as early as Puente and as late as Mazarife. Almost every instance presented as symptomatic of Norovirus with a mixed bag of Salmonella, and Bacillus cereus following on.
Okay, some tips on avoiding food-borne and/or water-borne illness. (And I am thinking in context of mid-Prairies North America as much as the Meseta.) I am not claiming the following is foolproof, it just improves your odds....and life is all about probabilities.
Rather than finger-wag about “Don’t” let’s examine the “Do” list.
DO!
1. ALWAYS. Do proper handwashing after toilet use. Drying them can be problematic in the common Meseta W/C but you have a kerchief or some tissues, no? I always have a packet of wet-wipes or similar handy for use. Lack of soap or handtowel is then no problem after flushing - - wipe your hands, use the towel to open the door back to the bar and dump the towel in the waste bin on the way out.
2. MINIMIZE EXPECTATIONS. I am not apologizing for shoddy food preparation, this an endeavor (however feeble) to protect you from it. Here is the restaurant/bar owners view: The financials of running my shop are all about reducing waste because, aside from alcohol sales, that is pretty much where MY margin comes from. (Translation: Keep portions under control and minimize the amount of food investment going to the landfill.) In Spain especially, the alcohol margin does not appear to be as great as is seen in other places. Thus...
3. BEFORE DECIDING WHERE TO EAT. Ask a few different locals the best place to get a meal. Then make sure that you see locals eating there before sitting down for more than a beer or vino.
4. WHEN CONFRONTED BY A MENU. As in you are not confident but there is nothing else open…
- stay as “local” as you can as far as food choice. For example, maybe seafood is not an excellent choice in the smaller towns on the Meseta. Personally, I do not order salmon, snapper, sole or oysters in “flyover North America” just for example – that is beef, swine or chicken country.
- Order ‘a la carte’ – just because you are a pilgrim does not mean that you must be stuck with the “bulk food” menu. Even so, assuming success on this point, the next few points still apply.
- Avoid “recyclable” starches. Rice is a good example. It is cheap and easily cooked once and re-heated for….how long? Pasta is a bit better but it is not a lock to be problem-free. The softer from 'al dente', the bigger the risk.
- Avoid “recyclable” sauces. Vinegar and oil are just fine. Anything requiring cream, milk and/or eggs can be dodgy. (Choose Salade mixta as opposed to Salade Rusa)
- I loathe “fried” or “well done” but… they are one’s safer bets when in doubt. Chicken, pork or beef for sure though fried seafood is not necessarily okay because refrigeration problems in transit may allow a small amount of bacteria to produce a lot of toxins.
- Not fond of bocadillos either but – trust your instincts – it may be the best move as long as you stick with cured meats such as jamon or salcichon. (Ignore the tortilla and tuna versions, imho.)
- Soups/stews are generally a good bet but if they come to your table anything less than hot then that is a warning sign. Safest ones are the sopa de ajo, lentejes or caldo Gallego - all the major veggie soups.
5. FOOD IS HERE – NOW WHAT?
- Trust your animal instincts – you do have them. If there is a little alarm going off in your head for any/all of the foods presented then leave them. Negotiating not paying the bill, in part or full, is up to you. Travel is not a safe endeavor. Never really has been until the last few decades and that condition is turning. One takes chances or one stays home.
6. ABOUT WATER. 'No potable' means “don’t drink”. So, do not.
B
Maybe this will be helpful, maybe not, but the crowd here is ever-changing though the Meseta and Carrion reps both keep getting smacked around.
I'm a former medical microbiologist and have experience on epidemiology teams. That's on top of 5 years of hospital work. I am NOT presenting an 'argument from authority' - - just establishing that I have some experience with the topic. And, it goes beyond "professional engagement" as I have had virtually every food or waterborne illness common to the Northern Hemisphere at least once. But NEVER on the Camino despite exclusive use of fountains for drinking water.
How are those judgypants feeling today - a bit tight, perhaps?Lots of grubby pilgrims on the Camino. Some downright skid row looking
An "unkempt" (and humble) pilgrim that I met on the Camino was someone who had sold his start up company to a very big company and was contemplating his next venture while walking the Camino. You know what they say about books and their covers...I've never seen anyone on the Camino who could be described as "skid row looking."
Thanks simply B for your informative post - it’s good to keep those thoughts in mind when making menu choices, not only on the Camino but everywhere.
On my recent camino, in a small town - I won’t say where - I saw an instance of questionable food storage practices. Two chest freezers were in the hallway of the albergue I was staying at which had two buildings for pilgrim accommodation. The freezers weren’t in the main building. I questioned their placement and concluded that there must have been nowhere else where the freezers could be stored ... but surely a locked garage perhaps would have been more appropriate.
The freezers weren’t padlocked (probably a good thing as I’m a fan of murder mysteries and have an overactive imagination!) so, being a sticky beak, I opened the freezers for a look at the contents - no dead human bodies on view thankfully - but I was surprised at the sight which did meet my eyes - here’s a photo:
View attachment 64091
That night there was no menu choice, as occasionally happens if you stay at some of the smaller albergues. I ate paella with chicken and hoped for the best!
Cheers from Oz -
Jenny
Apparently we have never met on the Camino, @Glenshiro! After the first 10 days I look thoroughly disreputable...at least that is the rumor.How are those judgypants feeling today - a bit tight, perhaps?
I've never seen anyone on the Camino who could be described as "skid row looking."
Hi Davey - anything in a freezer should be wrapped - in this case leaking chicken blood onto other items in the freezer (if the chicken was supplied fresh) could cause contamination.I have a feeling I might learn something here, and look like an idiot. But I'm gonna ask anyway.
What is wrong with this? Its just chicken in a freezer is it not?
(Already hiding under the table)
Davey
Hi Davey - anything in a freezer should be wrapped - in this case leaking chicken blood onto other items in the freezer (if the chicken was supplied fresh) could cause contamination.
Here in Oz I have everything in the freezer wrapped and the air expelled - makes for better freezer storage - no freezer burn for one thing.
Hop out from under the table - and maybe check your freezer!
Cheers from Oz -
Jenny
Hilarious!Ah yes, I do wrap my dead bodies I mean chicken in cling film. I missed that bit.
Just banged my head on the table
Davey
Thanks simply B for your informative post - it’s good to keep those thoughts in mind when making menu choices, not only on the Camino but everywhere.
On my recent camino, in a small town - I won’t say where - I saw an instance of questionable food storage practices. Two chest freezers were in the hallway of the albergue I was staying at which had two buildings for pilgrim accommodation. The freezers weren’t in the main building. I questioned their placement and concluded that there must have been nowhere else where the freezers could be stored ... but surely a locked garage perhaps would have been more appropriate.
The freezers weren’t padlocked (probably a good thing as I’m a fan of murder mysteries and have an overactive imagination!) so, being a sticky beak, I opened the freezers for a look at the contents - no dead human bodies on view thankfully - but I was surprised at the sight which did meet my eyes - here’s a photo:
View attachment 64091
That night there was no menu choice, as occasionally happens if you stay at some of the smaller albergues. I ate paella with chicken and hoped for the best!
Cheers from Oz -
Jenny
I wonder if it's confirmation bias? People only reporting stomach problems from that area because that's the area they have heard about? You would need statistics from all the way along to see whether there is a genuine problem there. It would be interesting to do that but it isn't an easy task. Or of course there could be one water source that is a genuine problem, although the people in Spain are just as keen to have clean water as we are and I suspect it would be tested if they suspected a problem.Then how do you explain the commonalities, such as drinking water from fountains near Carrion de los Condes and the quarantine in an albergue there? I think it's likely that there was contaminated water from somewhere rather than dirty hands transmitting a bug from arse to mouth. Could also have been vegetables or other foods rinsed with contaminated water. The same thing happens in the U.S. as shown by the numerous contaminations of packaged salads. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea.
It happened to me and several others I met in September 2018 - almost all of those, including me, seem to have drunk, stupidly perhaps, from water fountains near Carrion de los Condes. While I was staying at an albergue there, they had quarantined off a complete dormitory block due to an outbreak of a gastrointestinal type infection (according to the nuns who run the albergue). But the others I met who had similar symptoms were staying at different albergues.
My advice: bottled water only, no ice in drinks!
I'll probably get shot down for this post, but it's just my opinion, that I hope will help someone avoid what happened to me and many others.
one of the 24 people in our albergue room has what sounds like a nasty case of bronchitis. I feel badly for her, certainly, but also concerned for the rest of us (especially those with a compromised immune system).
I refilled my bottles with tap water from faucets in restrooms where I stopped for coffee or food, or from the sinks in the albergues where I stayed. From SJPP to Santiago. Never used a fountain, never bought water, never had a problem.
Me pants feel great. Quite comfy. As always.How are those judgypants feeling today - a bit tight, perhaps?
I've never seen anyone on the Camino who could be described as "skid row looking."
I caught Legionella somewhere along the Camino Frances sometime in June this year. I thought that I had Influenza and kept walking until I collapsed just past O Cebreiro. I spent 8 days in hospital on IV antibiotics in Lugo. I don't know where I caught the Legionella, although it was clear that I got it from contaminated water. The public health team at Lugo suggested that I probably had the infection for 10 to 12 days and so that does put Carrion de los Condes in the frame but I can't say for sure that this is where I caught it.Not really, I live in Spain and I've travelled all over Spain during more than 7 years. I've also been travelling back and forth to Spain since the 60s. There are places where water is not good quality. Some people, including locals, are more resistant to the waterborne bacteria, newcomers might not be.
Some areas have very hard water others don't. Some water comes from mountain reservoir sources and others from coastal salt desalination plants. Some water has higher chlorine levels than others - I know, in 5 years from 2005 to 2010 I used to measure it as part of my job. I installed mains water treatment systems in a chain of health clubs, mainly to reduce risk of legionella.
Besides my own experience, what makes me a bit suspicious is the number of people I met at the time, and that I've heard of since, which appear to report almost identical symptoms and from the same place: Carrion de los Condes. There has to be a reason for that, surely. Or is it just coincidence do you think?
When I walked CF this Spring there were several peregrinos and even an albergue volunteer who said that it was well-known that some of the tap water in towns between Burgos and Leon is contaminated.
Let's be serious. That is to say, the opinion of "some pilgrims and even a volunteer hospitalero" may have some importance ... and the real absence of mass complaints from citizens of "some cities between Burgos and Leon" has no influence? what are the names of those cities? What are the names of these pilgrims and that hospitalero? Where are the sick?
In a judicial process, abstract accusations are not accepted without well-proven evidence (names, witnesses, signed testimonies, places, times, etc etc.) And here "the problem" is already being treated as if it really exists, based on "some and some" ...
I insist, there is no problem with the water on the meseta. If there were, it would be a huge scandal and the disease would be devastating on the Camino de Santiago. It is something we would not have heard "some" but all.
Fortunately there are pilgrims with good sense who say they have never had any problems.
Roland49: If you are used to do the standard hygenic precautions (wash hands, rinse vegetables, etc.) than you have done all that you can do to avoid those symptoms. This is pure logic and common sense!
In my opinion, if someone, pilgrim or albergue, has knowledge of several cases of gastroenteritis, they have to notify the health services of Castilla y Leon, they are the first ones interested in discovering the origin of the disease and acting quickly. The health department phone number is 983413600. I know them and I know that they appreciate information of all kinds.
Not angry, just a little sad, I´m spanish.Sorry to make you angry. If you read my post I asked the group a question.
It's all well @gmag,Not angry, just a little sad, I´m spanish.
I have read your post and all the answers, you ask the group a question, I am part of it, and I give my answer. I hope I can do it ...
Rumors like that can easily spread and create problems.
In addition, I believe that the opinion of someone who lives on the meseta day by day, week after week, month after month, and who lives every problem, can be read by those who want to know not only anonymous rumors but opinions lived and grounded with data and with numbers. I usually get documented before writing.
I don't have to be believed, that's free, but I do think I can give an opinion.
Do not take my answer wrong, it is direct but friendly.
KinkyOne,It's all well @gmag,
Most of us love Spain, most of us never had any problems with water on any Camino or entire Spain, most of us completely understand your feelings about your love for your country and most of us know Spain isn't a third world (nothing bad about thrird world though!!!) country.
But you have to understand that some people are very easily scared because of their "homeland" circumstances and for many it seems almost impossible that somewhere in Europe it can be possible to drink from the public fountain, well or even (what a shock) mountain stream! You are lucky. We are all lucky to have opportunity to live in this still relatively healthy environment. And we should've all be more aware of the negative effect on the environment we put with buying bottled water where there's absolutely no need for that by spreading false-flags like Meseta water is no good...
I'd be concerned about using taps in a rest room more than taking water from a fountain. They are very likely to be contaminated, not least by people who have been to the toilet and then touched the taps with their hands before washing.I refilled my bottles with tap water from faucets in restrooms where I stopped for coffee or food, or from the sinks in the albergues where I stayed. From SJPP to Santiago. Never used a fountain, never bought water, never had a problem.
Legionella is more likely to come from something like a contaminated shower head, because the main mode of transmission is by breathing in infected water droplets. It's not impossible to catch it from drinking, but less likely.I caught Legionella somewhere along the Camino Frances sometime in June this year. I thought that I had Influenza and kept walking until I collapsed just past O Cebreiro. I spent 8 days in hospital on IV antibiotics in Lugo. I don't know where I caught the Legionella, although it was clear that I got it from contaminated water. The public health team at Lugo suggested that I probably had the infection for 10 to 12 days and so that does put Carrion de los Condes in the frame but I can't say for sure that this is where I caught it.
I've been coming to Spain for over 30yrs and never had an issue with water. Tap water is no problem at all if you stick to the cold tap.Don’t know if this topic has already been beat to death but here goes. When I walked CF this Spring there were several peregrinos and even an albergue volunteer who said that it was well-known that some of the tap water in towns between Burgos and Leon is contaminated. This came up when a very fit and very healthy friend came down suddenly with a “stomach flu”. She was taken to the hospital in Burgos and given IV hydration and meds. She recovered and in 3-4 days was back on and finished. I was just wondering if people were just talking about the water or if this truly is a thing?
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