AnticoUomo
New Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- None yet. I hope to leave St. Jean Pied de Port, France on Good Friday (April 18, 2014)
For 2024 Pilgrims: €50,- donation = 1 year with no ads on the forum + 90% off any 2024 Guide. More here. (Discount code sent to you by Private Message after your donation) |
---|
Buon giorno!I flew into Italy on January 14th and planned to leave here on April 14th (at the end of my 90 day Visa) for France so that I could begin the Camino on Good Friday (April 18th). Now I am thinking I totally blew it and will not be allowed into France because my 90 days will be expired. I did a little research and found out that Spain is a lot more lenient than France (or pretty much anywhere else in Western Europe) regarding the 90 day rule, especially when leaving. So here is my question: If I leave Italy for France sooner (let's say the 5th of April), begin my Camino on the 7th, and cross into Spain BEFORE my 90 day Visa expires, will I be good to go for the remainder of my pilgrimage? This pilgrimage is just so important to me, and I feel like an idiot for not having realized this problem sooner, but it is what it is. PLEASE HELP!!! Thanks
Buon giorno!
Antico, even with an Italian "name" I'm assuming you're from outside the EU. Visa extensions always take time but that you have. If you're in one of the EU reciprocal countries then I think I'm correct in saying that if you depart the EU (get a stamp!) for a day or two you can reenter and another 90 day will start. Having said that if you have an "actual" (paper or stamped in your passport) visa then it get a little trickier. You might have to start the process all over again.
Anyone "along the Camino" could notice that you have overstayed and technically report you to the police and they could ask you to leave. That seldom happens but it's till a possibility.
If you're from one of the reciprocal countries I'd go and spend a day or two in Switzerland, ask them to stamp your entry, and then go to Spain. That way you would have reset the 90-day clock.
Anticouomo
Most definitely take Margaret's advice. Too critical. From recent info I've read on 'schengen' visa requirements for ozzies (not sure where you are from) leaving for another stamp doesn't cut it, as the 90 days for us applies to max period of 90 days within period of 6months. Any chance you could start Camino sooner ?
I'm definitely not an expert so again, go with Margaret advice ASAP. All the best , feel for you . Annie
Is there actually any passport control into Spain from southern France ???
I'm Dutch by origin, now Canadian citizen . . . In my experience, once you've entered the EU it'll be the last time they check your passport until you fly out of, or take other transport (bus, train) outside of the EU again . . .
CanPete... I have no idea. I would just hate for my Camino to be interrupted over this. It means too much to me, and I must do it during the time I had planned.
My understanding of the Schengen rules are that you will be allowed 90 days in 180. If this is applied in your case, you would not be able to re-enter the Schengen zone after you had left it after 90 days until a further 90 days had passed.Hi, and thanks! I am Italian-American and from the U.S.A. Okay, so if I leave the E.U. just for a short while I may be able to reenter and start the clock all over again?
What I cannot tell you is whether a flight from within the Schengen zone is treated as a domestic flight, and passengers not subject to immigration checks.
Since you have an American passport read this Schengen FAQ sheet from the US Embassy regarding travel within the Schengen states.
MM
Antico!
My advice was incorrect! It's 90 days within any 180 day period even for the US.
Do you have an "entrance" stamp on your passport? If you do, that's Day 1.
Having said that here's some added information. I'm not sure how logistically legal he is. http://www.nomadicmatt.com/travel-blogs/how-to-legally-stay-in-europe-for-more-than-90-days/
Beyond that the best way is to contact the Spanish embassy because that's where you'll be when it expires, but realize they can be VERY SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!
When I go to/from Norway to another country inside Schengen, I am always asked for my passport, even if I am inside Schengen, since I am crossing a country border (only in airports, that is).When you leave Italy to fly to France you will be still in the region. Most likely nobody will check your American passport at that time to confirm your validity to stay in the region, since a flight from Italy to France is considered a "domestic" flight within the region. ( in other words you will not pass through the Schengen passport exit controls. )
Overstaying a visa in any country is a gamble - but you might 'luck out' - here's my 'out of the box' thought/idea:The U.S.A.
Antico,
Here's the link for what the Spanish call a "long term" visa. One of the options appears to be "research"! http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Portal...tranjeros/Paginas/VisadosDeLargaDuracion.aspx
That might work for 7 -10 days overdue but not entering with only a few days to go.Overstaying a visa in any country is a gamble - but you might 'luck out' - here's my 'out of the box' thought/idea:
IF you get quizzed at the border/dougana leaving spain for the USA - you could explain that while in Italy you felt moved - for religious reasons - to undertake this pilgrimage to Santiago di Compostela. (you might even have a spanish speaker/writer compose a courteous letter intended for the border control folks that explains this circumstance)
- Get a "credential" for your camino in Italy
- Enter SPAIN well prior to your 90 days are over.
- Start walking on your pilgrimage - and get lots of 'sello's (timbre / stamps) of the pilgrim hostels etc.
- In Santiago de Compostela get your 'compostela' - and then leave Spain presto - do not linger or have some beach-time
Other consideration is: your flight back out of Europe. Have something booked BEFORE you enter Spain ... that way it 'proves' your intention to leave immediately after you arrived in Santiago.
Again, it's a gamble, and only you can decide how to proceed or intuit how you might fare. Appeal to your Saint of choice might help as well ?!?!
Those things can be done - and you might be surprised (in the positive sense) how paths can open up for you in this matter.
Again - I am not advising anything, just sharing 'out of the box' way of thinking which has for me, opened solutions where before it looked liked there were none.
Tanti saluti e auguri - Spero che tutto andra' bene per te!
C
Antico!
My advice was incorrect! It's 90 days within any 180 day period even for the US.
Do you have an "entrance" stamp on your passport? If you do, that's Day 1.
Having said that here's some added information. I'm not sure how logistically legal he is. http://www.nomadicmatt.com/travel-blogs/how-to-legally-stay-in-europe-for-more-than-90-days/
Beyond that the best way is to contact the Spanish embassy because that's where you'll be when it expires, but realize they can be VERY SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!
That might work for 7 -10 days overdue but not entering with only a few days to go.
The concept of a long term Schengen visa sometimes called a Visa D is really a country specific visa. In other words if you want to stay in the Schengen region beyond 90 days then you must apply to a specific Schengen country like Spain or Italy and obtain a visa for that country under what ever program you believe you would meet the requirements. Spain is more difficult than Italy while France is generally considered easier for both Americans and Canadians.
Wanting to walk camino and travel around Europe before or after beyond the 90 day period, does not meet any of the requirements for any of the Schengen countries that I am aware of.
Furthermore the process of getting a long term visa for any Schengen country is lengthy, reqiuring police checks, independent medical coverage, sufficient financial resources, documentation, etc. And in the case with most people it must be initiated in your home country like Canada or the USA.
When crossing borders by plane, even within EU, a passport is required for identification. That is, a flight from Italy to France/Spain, etc. is viewed as an international flight, controlwise.
Antico, you will have no problems crossing borders inside the EU. Seldom/never is there a passport control when traveling on land (bus/train). By air, it is another matter, due to severe security measures in airports.
Your problem is that you have a passport with a visa glued inside. As you most likely have experienced, all hotels ask for your passport when checking in. Some even keep it for control/checking with the police. These may cause you trouble. Also, quite a few albergues ask for passports. And finally, when you leave for home, the airport check-in will control your passport. On any of these occations you risk ending up in trouble, given meeting "the right" people. I advice you to go legal on these matters, as others have suggested. Perhaps a solution is, as another suggested, to go to Switzerland ASAP (get stamps), and stay there until you start your Camino?
I hope it will sort out for you,
Buen Camino!
When crossing borders by plane, even within EU, a passport is required for identification. That is, a flight from Italy to France/Spain, etc. is viewed as an international flight, controlwise.
If you are really worried about this, consider my advice and save yourself a lot of bureaucratic headaches:
When you leave Italy, walk across the border into France on a GR hiking trail, or get a ride in a car. Then get a bus or train to the French town nearest the Spanish border. Walk a GR trail, or ride in a car over the border into Spain. (I recommend the Canfranc trail down to Jaca, where you can start the Camino in style.)
I have crossed these borders many times in cars or on foot, and no one has ever asked me for ID. Trains, planes, and buses are another matter.
Hotels make passport copies, but it´s rare for anyone to look at them unless a dangerous criminal is on the loose. As hospitalera I have sometimes looked at passports for name, nation etc., but I have never scrutinized entry dates.
Leaving Spain via airport is not troublesome. It´s coming in that is getting more problematic!
I would NOT get embassies and consulates involved unless an emergency came up. Don´t ask, don´t tell.
In recent years, an increased number of U.S. citizens have been refused entry because they failed to comply with and/or satisfy Spanish immigration laws, including because they overstayed on previous visits to Spain or other Schengen countries.
The Spanish government scrutinizes visitors who overstay their visas or their visa-free entry per the Schengen Agreement. Immediate deportation after spending a number of days in detention is not uncommon. You should leave Spain promptly at the end of the 90-day visa-free travel period, or at the end of the time stated on your visa.
When I go to/from Norway to another country inside Schengen, I am always asked for my passport, even if I am inside Schengen, since I am crossing a country border (only in airports, that is).
If you are really worried about this, consider my advice and save yourself a lot of bureaucratic headaches:
When you leave Italy, walk across the border into France on a GR hiking trail, or get a ride in a car. Then get a bus or train to the French town nearest the Spanish border. Walk a GR trail, or ride in a car over the border into Spain. (I recommend the Canfranc trail down to Jaca, where you can start the Camino in style.)
I have crossed these borders many times in cars or on foot, and no one has ever asked me for ID. Trains, planes, and buses are another matter.
Hotels make passport copies, but it´s rare for anyone to look at them unless a dangerous criminal is on the loose. As hospitalera I have sometimes looked at passports for name, nation etc., but I have never scrutinized entry dates.
Leaving Spain via airport is not troublesome. It´s coming in that is getting more problematic!
I would NOT get embassies and consulates involved unless an emergency came up. Don´t ask, don´t tell.
There is no predictability of the official response to violating the Schengen visa requirements. Penalties may be draconian, or you may get away with it. I guess I don't understand an unwillingness to abide by the visa terms. On the surface it seems self-indulgent and immature to me. In light of the false passports in Indonesia recently, there may be a sudden enforcement of currently ignored law. Getting caught up in that might be more than interesting. Can someone offer a reason to ignore the express wishes of the Schengen Treaty countries? Just because one might get away with it?It is one thing to give "silent" assent to something which one knows is either illegal or marginally legal. I think everyone on this Forum needs to give serious thought if they post something which could be considered "abetting".
Hi, AnticoUomo, First I want to send my sympathies to you as well, the death of a child must be an unbearable tragedy. I hope that walking the Camino will bring you some comfort and strength.
In terms of your passport situation, do you not have a return plane ticket?
This is one of those situations in which the rules and the reality MAY differ. First of all, no police officer in Spain and no hospitalero in Spain will be looking to see the dates on your passport. That's an immigration question, and it's the immigration officials at the airports, maybe on trains sometimes, etc, who will be the ones with the authority to question you and who know the visa rules. The others are just using it for ID.
I don't think anyone is trying to help you commit a crime, but rather just describe the risks you will be taking. You know what the law says, and you will be violating it by staying in the EU for more than 90 days.
My son once stayed for a year in Spain without a visa. He even left Spain during the year period for a week trip home to the US. At the airport going out, the immigration official asked him about why he didn't have a visa and told him it could cause him problems, but that official didn't cause him any problems (you have to wonder whom the immigrations official was referring to if not himself!) and a week later my son returned to Spain and finished out the year. Again no problems, and this time no problems at the exit. This wasn't a smart thing to do, he could have easily gotten a visa since he was studying, but being a stupid young male he didn't. We didn't know about it at the time and assumed he had gotten all the visas through his university program but he hadn't. I certainly don't recommend it, don't condone it, but that was his experience. As falcon says, though, this lax attitude may change at any moment (his experience was about 4 years ago).
As others have said, your main risk is when you leave the country. I know stories of people who have had problems at the exit, they weren't as lucky as my son. If you transfer at London, you should be prepared for a real problem. If you are going straight back to the US without a European transfer, it will depend on the attitude of the immigration official who looks at your passport as you leave Spain. In hindsight, it's clear what you should have done, but you didn't do it and now the rest is up to you since you're already there. Like leaningforward says, for me it would be a huge cause of anxiety, but since you have no way to get a visa to authorize an extension, I guess you'll have to decide how risk averse you are and go from there. Being banned from the EU for five years would be a horrible thing for me, maybe not for you. There is no good decision here, I suppose that's the real kicker. Buen camino, Laurie
Busted.
So I was detained. I was provided a lawyer, and I was interviewed. I was held in airport jail for 24 hours, all of my belongings locked up. I was escorted onto the next returning flight to D.C. that following morning by two very kind police officers, who told me I could return, in 9 months.
Only 9 months, I was lucky! They could have banned me for much longer, for years!
Yes, it was very stupid of me to overstay a tourist visa that I knew was illegal. Should I have followed the laws of the Schengen area? Yes, absolutely. But the reason for writing this article is for those of you trying to find out where the truth in all the conflicting information online is. It doesn't matter how "strict" you hear one country is over another. The truth is, they are enforcing this law everywhere. Will you still get away with it? Yes. I am sure. Sometimes. (When I called the US Embassy from airport jail, they told me that Spain had only started detaining Americans in the past two months).
There seems to be a lot of support for the proposition that it is OK for a person to break the law if the law happens to be inconvenient. Anarchy lives...on the Camino!!
If you are really worried about this, consider my advice and save yourself a lot of bureaucratic headaches:
When you leave Italy, walk across the border into France on a GR hiking trail, or get a ride in a car. Then get a bus or train to the French town nearest the Spanish border. Walk a GR trail, or ride in a car over the border into Spain. (I recommend the Canfranc trail down to Jaca, where you can start the Camino in style.)
I have crossed these borders many times in cars or on foot, and no one has ever asked me for ID. Trains, planes, and buses are another matter.
Hotels make passport copies, but it´s rare for anyone to look at them unless a dangerous criminal is on the loose. As hospitalera I have sometimes looked at passports for name, nation etc., but I have never scrutinized entry dates.
Leaving Spain via airport is not troublesome. It´s coming in that is getting more problematic!
I would NOT get embassies and consulates involved unless an emergency came up. Don´t ask, don´t tell.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?