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Excessively formal in most instances.I usually began with "Puedes ayudarme..."
I haven't the patience to learn how to extract a piece of your lovely post, but the second last line tells its own story!I too would like to know the real answer to this question. Even after six weeks on the Camino from September to November last year I'm still not sure.
I usually began with "Puedes ayudarme..."
I was ready to use, if necessary, "Puede usted ayudarme..." but it never really seemed required.
I often used a mixture of Spanish vocabulary with English grammar, for example: "Estoy buscando por..."
What I found was that everywhere I went the people were so very very kind and helpful with my attempts to communicate. My pronunciation and grammar was almost always wrong but everyone was so patient. When a local would express surprise that an American could speak some Spanish, I was ready to continue the conversation with: "¡Los niños in California estudian español porque estamos circa de Mexico!"
Just a little bit of Spanish will open the door to meeting many, many lovely people!
Vale. ¡Buen Camino!
Isn't that like the old days when new adult acquaintances first called each other Mr/Mrs/Miss, and then the recipient would say "Oh, please call me by my first name". So it was proper to start with the formal. I am curious what the practice is in France - Does a clerk in a store address an old person as "tu" or "vous"? In Spain, the "tu" is normal.When I used the formal ‘vous’ in France, I was gently corrected by a local that because I was a pilgrim, everyone was ‘tu’ to me.
Isn't that like the old days when new adult acquaintances first called each other Mr/Mrs/Miss, and then the recipient would say "Oh, please call me by my first name". So it was proper to start with the formal. I am curious what the practice is in France - Does a clerk in a store address an old person as "tu" or "vous"? In Spain, the "tu" is normal.
The French are far more formal, in my experience. And any young lady with a job, is Madam rather than Mademoiselle while at work. I find if I start any conversation with ‘Bonjour Madam’ (not just Bonjour), the entire exchange is easier.Isn't that like the old days when new adult acquaintances first called each other Mr/Mrs/Miss, and then the recipient would say "Oh, please call me by my first name". So it was proper to start with the formal. I am curious what the practice is in France - Does a clerk in a store address an old person as "tu" or "vous"? In Spain, the "tu" is normal.
If in doubt, the informal is never out of place in my experience anyway.
I haven't met the King yet, but might make an exception there.
Me too, on both counts.I'm at the age where I feel I can get away with tu anyway. But I do have problems not using the Latin American ustedes plural.
I long wondered why we do the same in English as thou is informal usage. Not long ago I Googled for an answer. Here is my short synopsis possibly with some things not quite correct.As the Spanish address God using the tu form
Yes, I only learned that a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been listening to the excellent ‘history of english podcast’ which goes into astounding detail about the evolution of English.I long wondered why we do the same in English as thou is informal usage. Not long ago I Googled for an answer. Here is my short synopsis possibly with some things not quite correct.
In older English thou was second person singular and you was second person plural. The king represented not just himself but the country as well so was addressed as you. Eventually usage changed so thou became used much as tu (or vos) is in Spanish (informal) and similarly you as usted. However you came to be used as both informal plural and formal singular and formal plural. So, when translating the bible the problem of God's address arose, thou or you. A translator (I forget which) decided to use thou because that emphasized that God was one god because thou was always singular. This seems to ignore the Trinity but I haven't gotten to that part yet.
Anyway, this shows language usage in flux.
Ahh! I remember that my high school Spanish teacher told us that this young man should be addressed as: "Señorito"....but sounded like a well educated 12 year old from the 19th century.
Ah, but they're following the teaching of Christ, who used the informal "Abba" (Dad, Papá) to address the Lord in the Our Father...frankly, the our Father should probably be retranslated...As the Spanish address God using the tu form, I’ve always considered myself on very safe ground indeed adopting the same practice in everyday conversation.
Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos Santificado sea tu Nombre Venga tu reino Hágase tu voluntad En la tierra como en el cielo Danos hoy el pan de este día y perdona nuestras deudas como nosotros perdonamos nuestros deudores y no nos dejes caer en la tentación sino que líbranos del malo. Amen.
Yeah, tutoyer versus vouvoyer is complicated in France.When I used the formal ‘vous’ in France, I was gently corrected by a local that because I was a pilgrim, everyone was ‘tu’ to me.
I am familiar with the tu/usted/vosotros, du/Sie/ihr and tu/vous/vous conundrum in various languages/cultural backgrounds. The development in Spain from usted to a more frequent use of tu during the last decades surprised me. Has there been a similar development in Portugal and Italy? I think that it happened also in the Nordic countries and to some extent in Germany but there not as strongly as in Spain (I know only about the cultural shift in Germany during the last 30 years or so but not about Austria and the German speaking parts of Switzerland).I offer this link that I've been using... it has several lesson videos and the one covering Tu and Usted I found easy to follow and very helpful. I hope you do, as well:
Or you could do what I usually do when I am a little uncertain about appropriate behaviour and language when meeting or interacting with someone for the first time: I simply avoid using any grammar constructions with usted / vous / Sie in the sentence and wait to hear what my interlocutor uses …So, I'll work to use Usted/ Ustedes during all first meetings, regardless of anything else.
Yes of courseAh, but they're following the teaching of Christ, who used the informal "Abba" (Dad, Papá) to address the Lord in the Our Father...frankly, the our Father should probably be retranslated.
Now the "padre nuestro" says " perdona nuestras ofensas como nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden". The word " deuda" was changed for " ofensa".Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos Santificado sea tu Nombre Venga tu reino Hágase tu voluntad En la tierra como en el cielo Danos hoy el pan de este día y perdona nuestras deudas como nosotros perdonamos nuestros deudores y no nos dejes caer en la tentación sino que líbranos del malo. Amen
I’d be curious to know whether you, or others living in Spain, would use “tu” or “usted” in situations like these: owner or reception staff in a casa rural or in a small hotel on the Camino Francés; check-in staff at the Hospederia San Martín de Pinario in Santiago; older woman in a small grocery shop - more or less same age as you; staff serving you at a bar or in a restaurant; middle-aged person you meet on the street to ask for the way to the church?I, as an Spanish, always use "tu" and " vosotros" with other pilgrims. I don't like to be treated with " usted" by other pilgrims, but I understand it if the pilgrim is young, Latinoamerican, or not Spanish speaker.
In Portugal, people use " tu", but I don't know if it is like in Spain. I think that in some regions of Portugal they use " tu" and "vocês" ( third person plural) in informal. In Brasil is always "você" and "vocês" in both cases.. Has there been a similar development in Portugal ?
Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
In Galicia depends on if my conversation is in Galego or in Spanish. In the first case, I would use "ti" more than " vostede" in all the cases. If the conversation is in Spanish, I would use "usted" in my first contact with hotels and also with the old woman. With staff serving me at a bar I would use "tu" or " usted" depending on the age and finally with the middle-aged person on the street I would use "tu" in Galicia ( but not in Aragón ( f. ex) where they are more formal).I’d be curious to know whether you, or others living in Spain, would use “tu” or “usted” in situations like these: owner or reception staff in a casa rural or in a small hotel on the Camino Francés; check-in staff at the Hospederia San Martín de Pinario in Santiago; older woman in a small grocery shop - more or less same age as you; staff serving you at a bar or in a restaurant; middle-aged person you meet on the street to ask for the way to the church?
That's pretty surprising coming from a Spanish teacher. In all the Spanish classes I've taken I've been told that vosotros is used in Spain. But here in North America it's generally not taught.Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
Duolingo does not teach the verb forms for vosotros (2nd person plural) either and I thought that is fine for me, I will probably need to use it rarely and can work around it - or just use a wrong verb form, they’ll understand me …That's pretty surprising coming from a Spanish teacher. In all the Spanish classes I've taken I've been told that vosotros is used in Spain. But here in North America it's generally not taught.
This is because in Latinoamerica they say "tu" and "ustedes" in informal, I think in all countries. In Spain informal is "vosotros".That's pretty surprising coming from a Spanish teacher. In all the Spanish classes I've taken I've been told that vosotros is used in Spain. But here in North America it's generally not taught.
YesLet me just clarify something before it gets too complicated. In Spanish in Spain, they say for “you all talk …”:
- vosotros habláis
- ustedes hablan
Correct?
In Argentina, people do not use [tu] at all ever - instead [vos] is used for the 2nd person singular. The conjugation of verbs for 2nd PS is totally different for [vos] compared to [tu] - it is similar to but not the same as the [vosotros] conjugation.Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
Well, that is really debatable.That's pretty surprising coming from a Spanish teacher. In all the Spanish classes I've taken I've been told that vosotros is used in Spain. But here in North America it's generally not taught.
I grew up in an area of Northern England where Thee/Thou/Thy/Thine was and is still in everyday use. I never actually considered what was the formal or familiar version it was just natural from learning from my parents/peers.I long wondered why we do the same in English as thou is informal usage. Not long ago I Googled for an answer. Here is my short synopsis possibly with some things not quite correct.
In older English thou was second person singular and you was second person plural. The king represented not just himself but the country as well so was addressed as you. Eventually usage changed so thou became used much as tu (or vos) is in Spanish (informal) and similarly you as usted. However you came to be used as both informal plural and formal singular and formal plural. So, when translating the bible the problem of God's address arose, thou or you. A translator (I forget which) decided to use thou because that emphasized that God was one god because thou was always singular. This seems to ignore the Trinity but I haven't gotten to that part yet.
Anyway, this shows language usage in flux.
Still common in Lancashire and Yorkshire; although in Yorkshire Tha’ predominates.I grew up in an area of Northern England where Thee/Thou/Thy/Thine was and is still in everyday use. I never actually considered what was the formal or familiar version it was just natural from learning from my parents/peers.
I may be wrong, but I seem to notice a difference in Spoken Spanish between the older generation and millennial speakers. The older generation seem to speak slightly slower and enunciate more clearly.
I still drop back into dialect when I vist my family and my wife and children finds it hard to understand!
That is correct.Let me just clarify something before it gets too complicated. In Spanish in Spain, they say for “you all talk …”:
- vosotros habláis
- ustedes hablan
Correct?
We have an older French lady friend (we are 75 and she is 96). I inadvertently addressed her as 'tu', and she sharply reminded me that I should refer to her as 'vous' until invited to tutoyer. That was several years ago, and to this day there has not been an invitation. So vous it continues to be! (By the way she is a former primary school teacher and most of our conversations involve her correcting my French and making me say it again correctly! This even happens in Facebook messages!!)Yeah, tutoyer versus vouvoyer is complicated in France.
But between pilgrims and hospitaleros, only by exception will it be vous. And most often, out in the sticks, if you're a pilgrim it's nearly always tu.
We have an older French lady friend (we are 75 and she is 96). I inadvertently addressed her as 'tu', and she sharply reminded me that I should refer to her as 'vous' until invited to tutoyer. That was several years ago, and to this day there has not been an invitation. So vous it continues to be! (By the way she is a former primary school teacher and most of our conversations involve her correcting my French and making me say it again correctly! This even happens in Facebook messages!!)
I, too, have noticed that it is easier to have conversations with older people in Spain. Especially very old people in Galicia. I was wondering if it is because their first language is Galician and Spanish is their second language. So they speak a simpler version of Spanish. But, you might be right, maybe they just speak more slowly and carefully.I grew up in an area of Northern England where Thee/Thou/Thy/Thine was and is still in everyday use. I never actually considered what was the formal or familiar version it was just natural from learning from my parents/peers.
I may be wrong, but I seem to notice a difference in Spoken Spanish between the older generation and millennial speakers. The older generation seem to speak slightly slower and enunciate more clearly.
I still drop back into dialect when I vist my family and my wife and children finds it hard to understand!
I have heard “o senhor” and “a senhora” as the ultra formal singular in Portuguese. NGL, I looked around to see *which* one they were talking about and -lol- I was the one!In Portugal, people use " tu", but I don't know if it is like in Spain. I think that in some regions of Portugal they use " tu" and "vocês" ( third person plural) in informal. In Brasil is always "você" and "vocês" in both cases.
Hola is informal. Buenos días or buenas tardes (until it’s dark outside!) is formal. When going into a store or a room full of people I usually say “Buenas” as kind of a formal-informal combination. Actually usually it’s “buenas, buenas”. Sounds kind of funny maybe but that’s what we say!Is it the difference between using say "buenos dias" and "hola", ie, formal vs informal?
I am not a Spanish speaker beyond the basics. But if I pass someone and am in a friendly mood, I usually use "buenos dias", especially if that person is older than me. In French when at school, we were taught to always use the formal unless you know the person. Rightly or wrongly, I apply the same to all languages. But my level is kind of good day, good night, how much, thank you, etc. Complex conversations, not a chance.
When there's about a generation or so of age difference, or more, the elder can ALWAYS insist on the "vous" (except young children of different generations) -- including the elder using tu, whilst being addressed by the younger as vous.We have an older French lady friend (we are 75 and she is 96). I inadvertently addressed her as 'tu', and she sharply reminded me that I should refer to her as 'vous' until invited to tutoyer. That was several years ago, and to this day there has not been an invitation. So vous it continues to be! (By the way she is a former primary school teacher and most of our conversations involve her correcting my French and making me say it again correctly! This even happens in Facebook messages!!)
First time I lived in Spain was 1986-87, then 91-92, then 2000-2001. Now I go back pretty often and have spent long chunks of summers there. When I first went, as a college student, Ud./Uds. was used for anyone who was older than you (by more than a few years) and who you were just meeting. Things have gotten way less formal over the years, but I still use Ud. if someone (like hotel desk people) "Ud."s me first. And if I have to go into a bank for some transaction or something. Basically, for interactions that are of a business nature. But even there, if they "tu" (can't do accents on this screen) me first, then I use "tu" back to them. A few years ago, I saw an older hotel receptionist wince and grimmace when a student of mine addressed him as "tu." So I wouldn't say it's true that as a visitor you will never use it, but "tu" will be the form pilgrims use with other pilgrims. (Actually, if I encounter a fellow pilgrim, no matter what the person's age, who expects Ud. from me, I'll actually purposely not use it because that would violate the whole "we're all here on an equal footing" spirit of the Camino, and I'd be offended!) Also, vosotros IS widely used. I do a lot with the Central American population in the U.S., and they don't have that, so it's Uds. for everything. I STILL have to keep reminding myself to use Uds. with them because it doesn't feel natural to me. If you use Uds., Spaniards would certainly understand, and they're used to foreigners' Spanish. Most Spaniards are pretty gracious people. I think it's great, by the way, that you're trying to review your Spanish ahead of the trip there. I wish more people bothered, even just to get pronunciation of towns (and the Camino names!) right. It's a respect thing. Good for you.I'm reviewing my Spanish (learned in high school) in the hopes of communicating effectively while on the Camino. One book does not cover the 'tu' form of the verb because as the book says "as a visitor, you will never use it". Another reference book only gives the 'tu' form of address and never mentions the 'usted' at all. Can someone help me out here? How should I talk to people on the Camino - formal or informal?
Right, there are many things to take care about..First time I lived in Spain was 1986-87, then 91-92, then 2000-2001. Now I go back pretty often and have spent long chunks of summers there. When I first went, as a college student, Ud./Uds. was used for anyone who was older than you (by more than a few years) and who you were just meeting. Things have gotten way less formal over the years, but I still use Ud. if someone (like hotel desk people) "Ud."s me first. And if I have to go into a bank for some transaction or something. Basically, for interactions that are of a business nature. But even there, if they "tu" (can't do accents on this screen) me first, then I use "tu" back to them. A few years ago, I saw an older hotel receptionist wince and grimmace when a student of mine addressed him as "tu." So I wouldn't say it's true that as a visitor you will never use it, but "tu" will be the form pilgrims use with other pilgrims. (Actually, if I encounter a fellow pilgrim, no matter what the person's age, who expects Ud. from me, I'll actually purposely not use it because that would violate the whole "we're all here on an equal footing" spirit of the Camino, and I'd be offended!) Also, vosotros IS widely used. I do a lot with the Central American population in the U.S., and they don't have that, so it's Uds. for everything. I STILL have to keep reminding myself to use Uds. with them because it doesn't feel natural to me. If you use Uds., Spaniards would certainly understand, and they're used to foreigners' Spanish. Most Spaniards are pretty gracious people. I think it's great, by the way, that you're trying to review your Spanish ahead of the trip there. I wish more people bothered, even just to get pronunciation of towns (and the Camino names!) right. It's a respect thing. Good for you.
Henry you always hit the nail on the head. The Spanish people, for the most part are gentle, loving people and apparently love, and are so accepting of pilgrims. The warm and loving form of “tu” one would use for a family member would seem most appropriate. Now when you check into the hotel and they’ve lost your reservation…all bets are off…I’m just sayin…As the Spanish address God using the tu form, I’ve always considered myself on very safe ground indeed adopting the same practice in everyday conversation.
Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos Santificado sea tu Nombre Venga tu reino Hágase tu voluntad En la tierra como en el cielo Danos hoy el pan de este día y perdona nuestras deudas como nosotros perdonamos nuestros deudores y no nos dejes caer en la tentación sino que líbranos del malo. Amen.
In Argentina (and several other countries), they use "vos" instead of tu. It is an older form and logical if you consider vos- singular and vos(otros) - plural. Vosotros to mean you all (ye) is only used in Spain. In all seven varieties of Latin American Spanish, ustedes is used for you plural.Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
I find it’s amazing that the country where the language comes from nowadays is an outlier in its use… but should we care about it? The Camino still is in the Spain, right?I would also add that Spain is an outlier in the almost universal use of tu.
Yes, Spaniards would use "vosotros" in that situation. (But not "nosotros" if it's just you, one person, and not a group in the first-person part of that.)Now I am confused: There is a group of 5 people and you address all of them by “tu”. Now you want to say something to the whole group, like “you go this way and I go that way”. Don’t you need “vosotros” in that case? Or nosotros do this and vosotros do that …
(I am not really confused because I am familiar with other languages that, like Spanish, have several distinctly different words for English “you” - not fair, is it)
I long wondered why we do the same in English as thou is informal usage. Not long ago I Googled for an answer. Here is my short synopsis possibly with some things not quite correct.
In older English thou was second person singular and you was second person plural. The king represented not just himself but the country as well so was addressed as you. Eventually usage changed so thou became used much as tu (or vos) is in Spanish (informal) and similarly you as usted. However you came to be used as both informal plural and formal singular and formal plural. So, when translating the bible the problem of God's address arose, thou or you. A translator (I forget which) decided to use thou because that emphasized that God was one god because thou was always singular. This seems to ignore the Trinity but I haven't gotten to that part yet.
Anyway, this shows language usage in flux.
Sure. And when I'm in Spain, I remind myself that even 20 something clerks will tutearme. My point to those who are learners is that it isn't that way in all Spanish speaking countries. In retirement, I volunteered in the Peace Corps and served in Panama. I basically dropped tú from my vocabulary - even with people that I knew very well. Teachers in Panamanian schools typically use usted even when talking to six year olds. A waiter would never tutear a graybeard. Just another thing to be aware of in different countries / situations.I find it’s amazing that the country where the language comes from nowadays is an outlier in its use… but should we care about it? The Camino still is in the Spain, right?
Usted is certainly not older than the Latin tu. Nor is it older than the similarly Latinate vos.In Argentina (and several other countries), they use "vos" instead of tu. It is an older form and logical if you consider vos- singular and vos(otros) - plural. Vosotros to mean you all (ye) is only used in Spain. In all seven varieties of Latin American Spanish, ustedes is used for you plural.
I can remember the tu/usted familiar/formal distinction being more prevalent in Spain in the 1970s, and even in the 1990s.I would also add that Spain is an outlier in the almost universal use of tu. Today, a grocery clerk responded "a ti" when I said thank you as she handed me my change. I would have expected "a usted", which would have been the standard response in Latin America.
My French teacher used to say that we should only use "Tu" to familly, children and criminals! She then set us a translation exercise of a French policeman arresting a robber to illustrate the informal method of address to criminals.We have an older French lady friend (we are 75 and she is 96). I inadvertently addressed her as 'tu', and she sharply reminded me that I should refer to her as 'vous' until invited to tutoyer. That was several years ago, and to this day there has not been an invitation. So vous it continues to be! (By the way she is a former primary school teacher and most of our conversations involve her correcting my French and making me say it again correctly! This even happens in Facebook messages!!)
Formality varies by country, but I would speak to business professionals such as shop owners using the formal and to other pilgrims using the familiar.Unless it's an elderly person or the King I use tu. This is based on advise from my teacher when I took a Spanish course in Barcelona.
The Peruvian was mistaken. In Argentina and Uruguay, they don't use vosotros; they use ustedes.Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
With apologies to your Peruvian teacher, vosotros is used only in Spain. In Argentina, Chile, and sometimes other countries, vos is used instead of tú.Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
It varies regionally, though that is the rule in Paris and that region, and so is the rule of "official" French.My French teacher used to say that we should only use "Tu" to familly, children and criminals!
You have to learn how to read the situation -- if it's formal, vous by default, and that rule never varies ; informal, the default varies regionally and according to a complex set of variables almost impossible for a non native speaker to understand -- but just follow local and situational example.Useful to remember that in some cultures (France and Germany) you have to be invited to use the informal methods address.
This post of mine has elicited several responses, so many that I’m finding it hard to follow, much less hope to apply if I ever get to speaking Spanish well enough not to offend someone. In defence of my Peruvian teacher, I can tell you that they [I would prefer to use the singular pronoun but apparently that is falling into disuse] have not lived in a Spanish-speaking country for twenty years and are volunteering their time [again no singular pronoun] in their retirement to teach us, for which we are extremely grateful. Perhaps things have evolved a bit in the last twenty years, or perhaps I misunderstood; I don’t know.Here in British Columbia I was told by a Spanish teacher (originally from Peru) that the only country where one might hear vosotros used, is Argentina. Now I’m hearing on this thread that vosotros is used in Spain.
Maybe those people in Catalunya prefer, like in Portugal, that you speak to them in English. When I visit Catalunya if I want to speak in Spanish and have problems, I say "Sisplau jo soc turista no parlo catalá" (Please I'm a tourist, don't speak Catalan) and after that in all cases the other person spoke Spanish with a smile.This is only my opinion /experience but with the exception of Catalunya, i have always found my efforts to speak Spanish always received graciously.
Maybe those people in Catalunya prefer, like in Portugal, that you speak to them in English. When I visit Catalunya if I want to speak in Spanish and have problems, I say "Sisplau jo soc turista no parlo catalá" (Please I'm a tourist, don't speak Catalan) and after that in all cases the other person spoke Spanish with a smile.
Yes, I noticed this soon after starting my Chemin last year. I speak French reasonably well but am clearly a non-native speaker and, in other contexts, would generally start out with 'vous.' But, observed 'tu' being used everywhere en Chemin. When I queried this with French pilgrims and hosts, I was assured that pilgrims use 'tu,' regardless of age or rank. So liberating!When I used the formal ‘vous’ in France, I was gently corrected by a local that because I was a pilgrim, everyone was ‘tu’ to me.
I studied the history of English from Old English onwards many decades ago. As mentioned above, in Middle English the second person singular and plural were used in English much like they are currently in French, with the singular to show informality and intimacy and the plural to show formality and respect. You can see this in action if you read Malory's Morte d'Arthur where towards the end Sir Gawain switches from "you" to "thou" when addressing Sir Lancelot to show disrespect when they are on opposite sides (Lancelot continues with "you").I long wondered why we do the same in English as thou is informal usage. Not long ago I Googled for an answer. Here is my short synopsis possibly with some things not quite correct.
In older English thou was second person singular and you was second person plural. The king represented not just himself but the country as well so was addressed as you. Eventually usage changed so thou became used much as tu (or vos) is in Spanish (informal) and similarly you as usted. However you came to be used as both informal plural and formal singular and formal plural. So, when translating the bible the problem of God's address arose, thou or you. A translator (I forget which) decided to use thou because that emphasized that God was one god because thou was always singular. This seems to ignore the Trinity but I haven't gotten to that part yet.
Anyway, this shows language usage in flux.
I find it interesting that English went in the opposite direction. The reason that thee/thou/thine became vestigal is that we all got consistently formal with each other.The original question was about the use of “tú” and “usted” in Spain and the shift (when directly addressing one person) from the more formal “usted” to the more informal “tú” during recent decades - a socio-linguistic development that also happens in other European countries with similar grammar/vocabulary.
What to say instead of señor and señora?And when someone calls you 'señor' or 'señora' (and you're under 70)... they might as well give you a slap in the face! It has the same effect
I had a few weeks in Australia in 2019 and mostly stayed in backpacker hostels. Several times other younger guests in the places addressed me as "Sir". It made me feel every one of my 57 years...It makes you feel very old when someone calls you 'usted'.
Maybe this is a more delicate matter for people between the ages of 40 and 70, who are still afraid of the inevitable downhill progression. How would you feel nowadays?It made me feel every one of my 57 years...
For me, a person who is over 70, I am not sure how to interpret this. I have certainly passed the point of my age being relevant to me, for anything. I have no problem telling anyone how old I am, and I am certainly not offended by someone addressing me formally. I know that I am officially old, and I don't see anything wrong if people notice. However, I honestly consider myself ageless, and I would prefer that others treat me as such.And when someone calls you 'señor' or 'señora' (and you're under 70)... they might as well give you a slap in the face! It has the same effect
Another very good series is the Story of Human Language by John McWhorter. It is one of the Great Courses, so you might want to take advantage of a trial subscription to Audible or a similar service.I’ve been listening to the excellent ‘history of english podcast’ which goes into astounding detail about the evolution of English.
@MariaSP, what about the use of señorita in Spanish in Spain? I am always amazed when I hear “miss” on TV, especially in AE. In other languages, the equivalent has died out since about 1968 or so and when used nowadays it is close to an insult (in German certainly, perhaps also in French, don’t know about Italian).And when someone calls you 'señor' or 'señora' (and you're under 70)... they might as well give you a slap in the face! It has the same effect
I'm still well in that age range at 60. Having been both a commissioned Army chaplain and a school teacher (very briefly!) I have been very used to being addressed as "Sir" in the past. Both quite structured and hierarchical environments. I think what rattled my cage slightly in the backpacker hostel case was that the degree of formality seemed out of place in the very relaxed and informal setting.Maybe this is a more delicate matter for people between the ages of 40 and 70, who are still afraid of the inevitable downhill progression. How would you feel nowadays?
Good question. I have been very surprised to be called "señorita" upon occasion, as it seems rather mocking unless it comes from a 95-year-old.@MariaSP, what about the use of señorita in Spanish in Spain? I am always amazed when I hear “miss” on TV, especially in AE. In other languages, the equivalent has died out since about 1968 or so and when used nowadays it is close to an insult (in German certainly, perhaps also in French, don’t know about Italian).
You don't have to say anything.What to say instead of señor and señora?
You may still hear it occasionally, but definitely not as common as it used to be.@MariaSP, what about the use of señorita in Spanish in Spain? I am always amazed when I hear “miss” on TV, especially in AE. In other languages, the equivalent has died out since about 1968 or so and when used nowadays it is close to an insult (in German certainly, perhaps also in French, don’t know about Italian).
Maybe this is a more delicate matter for people between the ages of 40 and 70, who are still afraid of the inevitable downhill progression. How would you feel nowadays?
For me, a person who is over 70, I am not sure how to interpret this. I have certainly passed the point of my age being relevant to me, for anything. I have no problem telling anyone how old I am, and I am certainly not offended by someone addressing me formally. I know that I am officially old, and I don't see anything wrong if people notice. However, I honestly consider myself ageless, and I would prefer that others treat me as such.
Another very good series is the Story of Human Language by John McWhorter. It is one of the Great Courses, so you might want to take advantage of a trial subscription to Audible or a similar service.
Yes, I understand that and have adapted to using "tu" most of the time. It really doesn't offend me either way. I ask for forgiveness for using the overly formal "ustedes" upon occasion, or I alter my sentence constructions to avoid the need.My point was that nowadays, in Spain, the use of 'usted' has reduced drastically compared to 20, 30 or 40 years ago.
If you ever read Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur the use of thou/thy/thine is very nuanced. For example, when Lancelot is facing off against the Orkney brothers (Gareth, Gaheris, etc.) near the end, he always uses "you" to them to be polite and they use "thou" to be insulting.As for Thou/Thy/etc., since I only ever heard that usage in church, it always sounded very formal to me. I only realized that it was the old English familiar voice when I read "For Whom the Bell Tolls" by Hemingway. He used Thou in place of Tu in dialogs between the main character and his lover as an implied direct translation from Spanish.
Yeah, but that was written in 1485 and usage has changed a bit in the last six centuries. I'm speaking from 21st century experience.If you ever read Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur the use of thou/thy/thine is very nuanced. For example, when Lancelot is facing off against the Orkney brothers (Gareth, Gaheris, etc.) near the end, he always uses "you" to them to be polite and they use "thou" to be insulting.
That was when the you/thou usage was (a) active and (b) determined by formality.Yeah, but that was written in 1485 and usage has changed a bit in the last six centuries. I'm speaking from 21st century experience.
After reading this I have to say that I was a bit offended at being addressed as señora and usted this past year. I'm not over 70 (though approaching it faster than I'd like), nor do I look old or infirm (I hope).As a Spaniard, can I just say that these days most of us don't like being addressed as 'usted'. There some situations where it sounds OK, and even more appropriate. But, in general, we don't like it. It makes you feel very old when someone calls you 'usted'. So, unless the other person is clearly much older than you, or is some kind of authority figure, 'tú' is preferred.
And when someone calls you 'señor' or 'señora' (and you're under 70)... they might as well give you a slap in the face! It has the same effect
Well, I have to say that I was a bit taken aback by being called señorita, by a young person. It just felt silly. I think it is largely a case where some people choose to be formal in the way they address others - for example, in a business situation some people will address people as Ms X or Mr X, while others will use first names. I remember the woman responsible for the keys to a church on the Lana giving us an informal tour inside, and she used the "usted" form quite distinctly. (I noticed because it was unusual, and I think even my companion, L, responded to her in kind, which I had never heard before.) Perhaps in her capacity as church caretaker, she was formal with all visitors. I liked it!After reading this I have to say that I was a bit offended at being addressed as señora and usted this past year.
Now that this thread has come alive again: @MariaSP and any other Spanish speakers living in Spain, what would you use or advise a foreign pilgrim with only a smattering of Spanish to use in these situations as personal address: tu or usted?As a Spaniard, can I just say that these days most of us don't like being addressed as 'usted'. There some situations where it sounds OK, and even more appropriate. But, in general, we don't like it. It makes you feel very old when someone calls you 'usted'. So, unless the other person is clearly much older than you, or is some kind of authority figure, 'tú' is preferred. And when someone calls you 'señor' or 'señora' (and you're under 70)... they might as well give you a slap in the face! It has the same effect
Just before Covid struck I made a trip to Australia. Doing it on a tight budget and staying in backpacker hostels quite often where at 57 I managed to bump the average age up quite a lot. Very disconcerting to be addressed as "sir" a few times by my fellow punters. That really made me feel every one of those years!Interesting subjective replies. I recently had asked the question on google of what age is a person considered "elderly". Surprisingly nearly all of the answers said 65 years old...that's a low blow for many of us regular posters on this forum. I assumed I had a whole decade left before walking down that road.
"Disculpe" = excuse me, as in "may I interrupt you" as opposed to an apology, although it means that as well. Waving a hand. My Spanish is Latin American, but to me, "chico/a" does not sound respectful. Perhaps a native speaker from Spain on this list would chime in that it's not the same in Spain, but I'd avoid that term.While we're "off" the subject - any views on the use of Chico/a to attract the attention of wait staff and bar tenders? I here it frequently in the sorts of bars where the staff are generally on the youngish side (should probably still be in school). It would seem totally inappropriate when the camarero is dressed in black trousers, white shirt and waistcoat and is probably my contemporary. "Atención" kind of works but I'm never sure whether there's a better alternative to the traditional "Oi!"
"Oye, tío!" might be too informal.While we're "off" the subject - any views on the use of Chico/a to attract the attention of wait staff and bar tenders? I here it frequently in the sorts of bars where the staff are generally on the youngish side (should probably still be in school). It would seem totally inappropriate when the camarero is dressed in black trousers, white shirt and waistcoat and is probably my contemporary. "Atención" kind of works but I'm never sure whether there's a better alternative to the traditional "Oi!"
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