- Time of past OR future Camino
- First: Camino Francés 2002; most recent: Norte/Primitivo 2019
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Yes, same proposal as I understand it; nope, I don't know about the privacy concerns.Thanks, Dave.
I am assuming this is the same law that was announced and then postponed last year? The thread ended with the news that the government had postponed implementation till Jan. 31, 2024.
Do you know if the privacy law concerns have been worked out?
I expect that the devil is in the detail, but I am a bit puzzled about what the significant changes are, in practical terms. Aren't these payment examples irrelevant in the case of donativos? And for other accommodations that accept credit cards, are they not required by the credit card companies to collect this data anyway?Data that far exceeds the information that has been required to date, and is as sensitive as the means of payment used in the reservation, the credit card number, the expiration date of the card or the bank account number of the headline.
On the thread last year, @Juanma posted a lot about the changes from his perspective as a private albergue owner. I have not re-read the whole thread, but did remember that one of the main concerns was that the albergue owners would have to keep CC number, IBAN number and other private financial info of each person for three years, AND transfer it to “the authorities.” As it is now, they don’t keep any of that, they swipe the card and let the CC company and bank figure it out.I expect that the devil is in the detail, but I am a bit puzzled about what the significant changes are, in practical terms. Aren't these payment examples irrelevant in the case of donativos? And for other accommodations that accept credit cards, are they not required by the credit card companies to collect this data anyway?
About the payment with card: if a pilgrim wants to pay with card in my albergue, I do not get to keep the card's details: I simply charge from the card with my device and that's it. I never get hold of any of the card's info such as its number, holder's name or expiry date. Now with this new regulation, I will have to collect those details!
I just filled in the space with xxx and it went through.I can't sign the petition because as an american I don't have a Dni. Is there any other way to show my support for donativos?
So far for putting your donation discreetly in a donation box?From the rather limited information cited in the petition it seems that similar requirements are proposed to be extended to donativos as currently apply to any other accommodation provider. Who stayed here, when and how much and how did they pay? It’s inconceivable that guests would have to provide any more information than is connected with their identity and actual means of payment. Cash, much to the chagrin of governments all over the world, remains an option.
Perhaps it’s the State finally getting round to assessing what - in more innocent times - might have been called the ‘black economy’?
In any case, the 50%+ of the current signatories choosing to be anonymous probably will not carry much weight, and the views of non-Spanish residents, about the same.
Cash still is king in Spain. The country has a huge black economy and paying with cash in shops, restaurants and for services is totally normal. So yes, if this law will indeed be introduced, I think a lot more people will pay their stay in hotels with cash if they can. And certainly in albergues.Cash will again become king if these regulations go forward.
Cash still is king in Spain. The country has a huge black economy and paying with cash in shops, restaurants and for services is totally normal. So yes, if this law will indeed be introduced, I think a lot more people will pay their stay in hotels with cash if they can. And certainly in albergues.
That is an exceptionally astute observation. Thank you.So far for putting your donation discreetly in a donation box?
Wow! This may fundamentally change the experience of the Camino. For me, this may change where my next Camino will be … perhaps from Puglia to Rome?Last week, there was an announcement related to the formation of the Acogida Tradicional Jacobea, with traditional pilgrim accommodations on the Caminos del Norte and Primitivo joining together in solidarity to promote this unique form of hospitality. This was driven in part by ongoing concerns about developing legislation that might pose a threat to donativo-based albergues.
Over the last few days, the Camino Francés Federación has raised an alert about Royal Decree 933/2021, which is poised to become law in January and require much more extensive information-logging/keeping in all accommodations in Spain. Here's their description of this, courtesy of Google Translate:
"Today, a new regulation threatens to endanger the very essence of this tradition. A Royal Decree, scheduled to definitively come into force in January 2024, could cause the disappearance of a large part of those who carry out this activity due to the disproportionate regulations it imposes, and the technical and human needs it demands.
"We face not only a challenge that deeply affects our unique experience on the Camino, but also makes us reflect on our rights and those who visit us. Starting in January 2024, the places where we stay will be required to collect more than 30 personal data of all types, which must be kept for a period of 3 years and communicated to the security and protection forces of the State. Data that far exceeds the information that has been required to date, and is as sensitive as the means of payment used in the reservation, the credit card number, the expiration date of the card or the bank account number of the headline.
"The challenge is even greater in rural shelters, which often lack the technological resources necessary to comply with the new regulation. This implies that the collection of required data would be done manually, which could result in long queues and frustration for exhausted pilgrims."
In response to this, the CFF has organized a petition, accessible here, along with the full text of their announcement in the original Spanish.
Maybe so but keep it for 3 years and report it to the state?I expect that the devil is in the detail, but I am a bit puzzled about what the significant changes are, in practical terms. Aren't these payment examples irrelevant in the case of donativos? And for other accommodations that accept credit cards, are they not required by the credit card companies to collect this data anyway?
Sorry, maybe to clarify my comment. If the new law results in fewer of the quaint accommodations being available, then that may impact the authenticity of the Camino. That said, as one poster points out, the acceptance of plastic is now very common especially post COVID.Wow! This may fundamentally change the experience of the Camino. For me, this may change where my next Camino will be … perhaps from Puglia to Rome?
for other accommodations that accept credit cards, are they not required by the credit card companies to collect this data anyway?
I have no idea, which is why I asked. I am neither defending nor criticizing the proposals, as I don't know enough about them.Maybe so but keep it for 3 years and report it to the state?
All your information is still in someone's cloud. Vigilant? How?When I did Frances from St Jean Pied de Port to Santiago in September/October 2022, at every stop, either private or public albergue, my passport was scanned or photographed with a phone camera, noticing some operating systems using very out of date technology, ie not updated for security, wondered then how my data from my passport was going to be stored, is it still sitting in someone’s photo collection or on a piece of paper filed out the back, this still didn’t deter me from having an amazing time and planning the next. Data collection happens, we just have to accept this and be vigilant for any anomalies that may pop up. Sorry off topic a bit I guess.
And for other accommodations that accept credit cards, are they not required by the credit card companies to collect this data anyway?
Actually you can get around this, at least last year it was possible. When reserving I told them that I didn't have a credit card but could give my debit card number if necessary. They said no need and just took my reservations.I just contacted San Martín Pinario to ask about when they would open up reservations for spring 2024. I’ve been shut out my last two times into Santiago and wanted to try to snag a bed early. When I asked them about reservation procedure, they told me to send CC details to guarantee a bed. Since it’s a BAD idea to send CC details via email, I asked them - I’ve stayed there so many times, don’t you have my CC details?
Did they say specifically that next year it would change or are you assuming this?Their answer: “Los datos previos de teléfono y tarjetas de crédito no se guardan por seguridad.“ (The previous information of telephone number and CC number is not kept for reasons of security.)
That will change when this new law goes into effect. It’s funny that their explanation of the practice is that it is for security purposes, so I guess we know what they think of the new requirements that they store everyone’s data for three years!
I didn’t askk them, but I will when I call, once I know the days I want to reserve.Actually you can get around this, at least last year it was possible. When reserving I told them that I didn't have a credit card but could give my debit card number if necessary. They said no need and just took my reservations.
Did they say specifically that next year it would change or are you assuming this?
Ah! this was the UK media this morning which may interest you. I did a couple of trips to Australia last year totalling maybe 6 weeks and never used cash once. I am a major advocate of cashless (big and growing in Spain and UK too!) but do understand it brings challenges for certain groups, often those already struggling. In Australia, cash transactions were still 50-% just 10 years ago, 27% pre Covid which was a catalyst for hygiene reasons, but have against expectation post pandemic, continued to decline.As an adjunct, in Australia there’s a rapidly growing push to become a cashless society which is causing great concern. A recent 12 hour outage by a major telco threw commerce amongst other things into chaos and highlighted the dangers of such a policy. Fewer and fewer people here pay with cash….
Seems to be a good balance in Spain though I think nothing will stop the significant rise of cashless as we move forward. I have just come back from 3 months there and used card >95% of the time as that’s my preference, but cash was still accepted in the vast majority of outlets.Cash still is king in Spain. The country has a huge black economy and paying with cash in shops, restaurants and for services is totally normal. So yes, if this law will indeed be introduced, I think a lot more people will pay their stay in hotels with cash if they can. And certainly in albergues.
FWIW: This new Spanish law is simply a new and extended version of the previous law about the registration of guests. Those who volunteered at an albergue or own(ed) an albergue will be more familiar with this Spanish registration system and its requirements than most of us.EU Privacy laws
Every albergue I worked at was donativo, and that means cash only. I suspect it will stay that way for a while so presumably no data to collect or store.FWIW again: The new Spanish decree 933/2021 has nothing to do with income and taxes. The decree does not require any collection of data concerning what, if anything, a pilgrim or other guest pays for their stay. The law states clearly which departments of government keep these data and who has access to them and for which purposes.
One can of course freely speculate about all sorts of sinister forces at work and hidden motives that are obvious to the initiated but in my humble opinion that is best kept out of any meaningful discussion about decree 933/2021.
The main concern is the amount of additional work, investment and time for volunteers at albergues that are run by volunteer associations and for owners and staff at other albergues and small hotels, casa rurales etc.
The other concern is for pilgrims and other guests who are doubtful about how securely their extensive personal data set is kept at these places of accommodation.
Just curious, if you don't mind sharing: Did you have to keep a guest register (registro de huéspedes or de viajeros - I am not sure of the exact name) and if so did you submit the data electronically to the police forces?Every albergue I worked at was donativo, and that means cash only. I suspect it will stay that way for a while so presumably no data to collect or store.
I have volunteered in several donativo albergues. Yes we kept a guest register written by hand. We were not required, nor did we have the means, to submit this to the police forces. They were welcome to stop in and inspect the register and copy any information that they needed. In six years of volunteering the police forces never stopped in. There was not a way to accept a credit card. In some albergues we did not have wifi. None had a computer. Not all had a phone on the premises.Just curious, if you don't mind sharing: Did you have to keep a guest register (registro de huéspedes or de viajeros - I am not sure of the exact name) and if so did you submit the data electronically to the police forces?
Indeed, seems a violation of GDPR—as did the old system, which did not change when GDPR took effect. As for the usage of the old system, occasionally, we got a call from la Guardía asking if we had hosted a pilgrim named (whatever). We always wondered, why don’t they just check their database that we updated faithfully instead of expecting us to remember the names of all the pilgrims we ever hosted?This information is way beyond what the Guardia Civil needs (name, ID, date checked in/out) to apprehend someone in case of foul play.
I have volunteered in several donativo albergues. Yes we kept a guest register written by hand. We were not required, nor did we have the means, to submit this to the police forces. They were welcome to stop in and inspect the register and copy any information that they needed. In six years of volunteering the police forces never stopped in. There was not a way to accept a credit card. In some albergues we did not have wifi. None had a computer. Not all had a phone on the premises.
Waiting to see if other hospitaleros experienced submitting info to the police forces on a daily basis, electronically or otherwise.
Phil
Thanks, I just signed it and sent a link to a whole lot of friends to ask them to sign it.Last week, there was an announcement related to the formation of the Acogida Tradicional Jacobea, with traditional pilgrim accommodations on the Caminos del Norte and Primitivo joining together in solidarity to promote this unique form of hospitality. This was driven in part by ongoing concerns about developing legislation that might pose a threat to donativo-based albergues.
Over the last few days, the Camino Francés Federación has raised an alert about Royal Decree 933/2021, which is poised to become law in January and require much more extensive information-logging/keeping in all accommodations in Spain. Here's their description of this, courtesy of Google Translate:
"Today, a new regulation threatens to endanger the very essence of this tradition. A Royal Decree, scheduled to definitively come into force in January 2024, could cause the disappearance of a large part of those who carry out this activity due to the disproportionate regulations it imposes, and the technical and human needs it demands.
"We face not only a challenge that deeply affects our unique experience on the Camino, but also makes us reflect on our rights and those who visit us. Starting in January 2024, the places where we stay will be required to collect more than 30 personal data of all types, which must be kept for a period of 3 years and communicated to the security and protection forces of the State. Data that far exceeds the information that has been required to date, and is as sensitive as the means of payment used in the reservation, the credit card number, the expiration date of the card or the bank account number of the headline.
"The challenge is even greater in rural shelters, which often lack the technological resources necessary to comply with the new regulation. This implies that the collection of required data would be done manually, which could result in long queues and frustration for exhausted pilgrims."
In response to this, the CFF has organized a petition, accessible here, along with the full text of their announcement in the original Spanish.
The managers where I volunteered said that one day la Guardia Civil came up and angrily demanded an explanation for them not sending it in. https://boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2003-13865 says computer entry is not required. But section two does require keeping the records, organizing them, and making them available to la Guardia for three years. It also requires the guest to sign the record. I do not know whether this is the most up-to-date requirement..I have volunteered in several donativo albergues. Yes we kept a guest register written by hand. We were not required, nor did we have the means, to submit this to the police forces. They were welcome to stop in and inspect the register and copy any information that they needed. In six years of volunteering the police forces never stopped in. There was not a way to accept a credit card. In some albergues we did not have wifi. None had a computer. Not all had a phone on the premises.
They demand things until they don't. And it seems like the demands vary greatly from one Guardia Civil comandante to another, and/or one region and another. It makes our lives interesting.The managers where I volunteered said that one day la Guardia Civil came up and angrily demanded an explanation for them not sending it in. https://boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2003-13865 says computer entry is not required. But section two does require keeping the records, organizing them, and making them available to la Guardia for three years. It also requires the guest to sign the record. I do not know whether this is the most up-to-date requirement..
Section 3.1–3.1.4 requires providing the data to "las dependencias policiales” by hand, mail, in person, fax, internet, or magnetic media.
For those that prefer computer entry, the database is https://hospederias.guardiacivil.es/
Well, like I've said more than once, in Spain, the "law" is what the guy you're talking to thinks it is (or wishes it is). I got my NIE two months after I gave them a copy of the law that said they must give it in five days. Houston Embassy said they'd take four months to grant a visa when the official law said within ninety days.They demand things until they don't. And it seems like the demands vary greatly from one Guardia Civil comandante to another, and/or one region and another. It makes our lives interesting.
Off topic but I assume that's because you are an American citizen? Just to clarify for our readers, this is not the case for EU citizens. I received mine on the same day of applying.Well, like I've said more than once, in Spain, the "law" is what the guy you're talking to thinks it is (or wishes it is). I got my NIE two months after I gave them a copy of the law that said they must give it in five days. Houston Embassy said they'd take four months to grant a visa when the official said within ninety days.
You got me confused there. I now know that NIE is a Spanish tax identification number.I got my NIE two months after I gave them a copy of the law that said they must give it in five days
We kept a book and meticulously registered everyone in it. I´m not sure of the name either, we just called it ´the book´. As for submitting the data electronically, no. None of the 3 albergues I have worked in had a landline let alone a computer. We couldn´t have taken credit card payments even if we´d wanted to, there was no equipment to do it on so all payments went in cash into the box.Just curious, if you don't mind sharing: Did you have to keep a guest register (registro de huéspedes or de viajeros - I am not sure of the exact name) and if so did you submit the data electronically to the police forces?
Can you be a bit more specific about this? What are the new details that were not required before? And if payment is in cash, does the establishment still have to collect and store bank details?the places where we stay will be required to collect more than 30 personal data of all types,
My NIE is a residency card.You got me confused there. I now know that NIE is a Spanish tax identification number.
I had wrongly assumed at first that NIE was the abbreviation for a sort of residency card or identification card in Spain because we are talking about the requirements for checking into accommodation. Hence my comment about how long it takes to get my own new card.
But ok I assumed wrong. NIE is a tax number. I am quite sure that we don't need to present a tax number for checking into pilgrim albergues in Spain.
From what I remember reading:Can you be a bit more specific about this? What are the new details that were not required before? And if payment is in cash, does the establishment still have to collect and store bank details?
Thanks for the info. I suspect this happens a lot less than you might expect. A lot of albergues simply don´t have the means to do this, especially the donativos. This new ruling may actually help donativos as people who only use cash (like Bristle Boy) will have more incentive to use them. But there will probably be a period of chaos as everyone tries to comply or enforce the new regulations until they are quietly forgotten or abandoned.name, ID number and country of residence which is normally sent digitally to the Guardia Civil on a daily basis.
I think you will find I posted that I don't use cash and have rarely had need to.Thanks for the info. I suspect this happens a lot less than you might expect. A lot of albergues simply don´t have the means to do this, especially the donativos. This new ruling may actually help donativos as people who only use cash (like Bristle Boy) will have more incentive to use them. But there will probably be a period of chaos as everyone tries to comply or enforce the new regulations until they are quietly forgotten or abandoned.
Oh yes, these old Italian ID papers that are still valid, I had forgotten about themIn Roncesvalles we scan every paspoort / ID-card and this info goes directly electronically to the Guardia Civil every day, so we are told. The data of the old-fashioned Italian ID-papers which cannot be scanned are entered by hand into the computer. The Valcarlos police drops in at the albergue on a regularly base.
The law I read did not offer different rules for different countries. It just said they must take five days or less to process an NIE application.Off topic but I assume that's because you are an American citizen? Just to clarify for our readers, this is not the case for EU citizens. I received mine on the same day of applying.
You don't. NIE is one of several ID methods acceptable for the Guardia Civil Hospederias database. I got it because I planned to spend a lot more time in Spain, and having a NIE makes certain tasks a bit easier.I had wrongly assumed at first that NIE was the abbreviation for a sort of residency card or identification card in Spain because we are talking about the requirements for checking into accommodation. Hence my comment about how long it takes to get my own new card.
But ok I assumed wrong. NIE is a tax number. I am quite sure that we don't need to present a tax number for checking into pilgrim albergues in Spain.
My NIE is a residency card.
Thank you for this link and summary about NIE and TIE in Spain, explaining what the abbreviations stand for and clearing up frequent misunderstandings.What is the difference between the NIE and TIE in Spain, and which one do you need?
NIE and TIE are two different documents that are often mismatched or confused. If you are a foreigner thinking of investing in Spain or going to live there, you have probably already heard of these and are looking for some clarification on the matter. In this article we are going to explain the...www.klevvera.com
I've never heard of the term TIE and never had one although I was a resident of Spain. After reading the article (see picture below) I now understand why. The TIE is for non-EU nationals, the NIE for EU citizens. The green colored card (not to be confused with the US green card) serves as the only document needed.What is the difference between the NIE and TIE in Spain, and which one do you need?
NIE and TIE are two different documents that are often mismatched or confused. If you are a foreigner thinking of investing in Spain or going to live there, you have probably already heard of these and are looking for some clarification on the matter. In this article we are going to explain the...www.klevvera.com
Our posts crossed. That's correct, the green NIE is a flimsy paper card without even a foto. Odd in this day and age.Thank you for this link and summary about NIE and TIE in Spain, explaining what the abbreviations stand for and clearing up frequent misunderstandings.
And although I had been aware of the fundamental difference between residency cards for EU residents and for non-EU residents in Spain, it was interesting to me to see copies of the two cards, where one is a permiso de residencia (for non-EU persons) and the other is a Certificado de registro (for EU citizens) which, in Spain, apparently does not even have a photo of the holder.
The NIE is the number, not the card that it is printed on. Número de Identificación de Extranjero. I never received a card; rather a letter telling me what my number is. Here is what the letterhead looked like:Our posts crossed. That's correct, the green NIE is a flimsy paper card without even a foto. Odd in this day and age.
The T in TIE is for Tarjeta (card). TIE is something a non-EU citizen gets when they register a legal residence in Spain. It tells the NIE, which is a number you can get even without residency. But you have to get it to be allowed residency if you are not EU². And ANYONE¹ not a Spanish citizen can get a NIE, whether EU or not. https://visaguide.world/europe/spain-visa/foreigner-identity-card/I've never heard of the term TIE and never had one although I was a resident of Spain. After reading the article (see picture below) I now understand why. The TIE is for non-EU nationals, the NIE for EU citizens. The green colored card (not to be confused with the US green card) serves as the only document needed.
Because I had been told that so often, even by bankers, I obtained my NIE. And before I got it, I opened a bank account and rented a piso using my passport as ID. Learned since that many people have used their passports for IDs to open bank accounts.I can only speak from experience but without a NIE you can't open a bank account, …
There will be exceptions I guess but don't bank on itBecause I had been told that so often, even by bankers, I obtained my NIE. And before I got it, I opened a bank account and rented a piso using my passport as ID. Learned since that many people have used their passports for IDs to open bank accounts.
If the person is a Spanish citizen and presents their ID carnet, we would enter the DNI and the system would check the government DB to ensure all the other fields are correct. For all the other ID types, we would enter a number from the ID and it will be accepted without checking. For the last one, that would most likely be the NIE. When I was the pilgrim and not the hospitalero, I showed the letter containing my NIE (which is a "documento de identidad") and they entered my NIE.Neither of these Spanish NIEs can be used as ID to check into an albergue in Spain - not under the old law and not under the new law.
Returning to the topic of the thread, namely future collection of more personal data than before and concerns for pilgrims and for albergue and hotel staff in relation to this: The organisers of the petition aim for 100,000 protest votes. Only around 1,000 persons or 1% of the target number have signed so far.In response to this, the CFF has organized a petition, accessible here, along with the full text of their announcement in the original Spanish.
If they are required to keep credit card numbers and addresses, this poses a security risk to people who own those credit cards. Yet another reason to pay in cash.Last week, there was an announcement related to the formation of the Acogida Tradicional Jacobea, with traditional pilgrim accommodations on the Caminos del Norte and Primitivo joining together in solidarity to promote this unique form of hospitality. This was driven in part by ongoing concerns about developing legislation that might pose a threat to donativo-based albergues.
Over the last few days, the Camino Francés Federación has raised an alert about Royal Decree 933/2021, which is poised to become law in January and require much more extensive information-logging/keeping in all accommodations in Spain. Here's their description of this, courtesy of Google Translate:
"Today, a new regulation threatens to endanger the very essence of this tradition. A Royal Decree, scheduled to definitively come into force in January 2024, could cause the disappearance of a large part of those who carry out this activity due to the disproportionate regulations it imposes, and the technical and human needs it demands.
"We face not only a challenge that deeply affects our unique experience on the Camino, but also makes us reflect on our rights and those who visit us. Starting in January 2024, the places where we stay will be required to collect more than 30 personal data of all types, which must be kept for a period of 3 years and communicated to the security and protection forces of the State. Data that far exceeds the information that has been required to date, and is as sensitive as the means of payment used in the reservation, the credit card number, the expiration date of the card or the bank account number of the headline.
"The challenge is even greater in rural shelters, which often lack the technological resources necessary to comply with the new regulation. This implies that the collection of required data would be done manually, which could result in long queues and frustration for exhausted pilgrims."
In response to this, the CFF has organized a petition, accessible here, along with the full text of their announcement in the original Spanish.
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