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We have a "Camino Crime" section in the forum here:Someone on the American pilgrim site posted this. I read that the police has been talking to various women who said they had been molested. Has any of you had this kind of experience? http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias/provincia/mes-muchos-interrogantes_976412.html
I'm very glad you cleared that up, I speak no Spanish and took the literal meaning of the word molested when I read the translated newspaper articles, and in the process I frightened the life out of myself. Thank you!Remember "molestar" in Spanish does not mean the same as the English word. English speakers will automatically assume the worst but it has much milder meanings in Spanish. Ie pestered, bothered, humbugged...
It is a serious thread but it is also a thread where we can reflect upon the fact that we aren't always hearing/seeing what we think we are, and that language and cultural differences can result in misunderstandings.Lo siento. Shouldn't have included that in such a serious thread.
Shall I metion the translation for "Coger" - "To take", as in to "take a right or left" with the google translation on the tourist information kiosk by the Irache monastery that translates "coger" in a most vulgar way? By a monastery no less! In all seriousness, enough with so called journalists who cannot be bothered to check what they are saying.It is a serious thread but it is also a thread where we can reflect upon the fact that we aren't always hearing/seeing what we think we are, and that language and cultural differences can result in misunderstandings.
Not from me!Coger "to grab" is my new word of the day! That could make for some really interesting sentences.
Any other words that have normal meanings in one Spanish country but which could raise eyebrows elsewhere?
Thank you. I think your request was just perfect. This has been such a hard time, and it is important to remain sensitive to the situation.May I please make a gentle request? I mean no offence, but I feel that we may be poised here to veer off into lightheartedness. Normally, that would be fine, but this thread started off seriously, in connection with Denise's disappearance, and I wouldn't feel comfortable if it were to turn jocular. The direction the conversation is taking could still make for a very interesting discussion but perhaps, out of respect for Denise and her family, we could continue this discussion on another thread. I remain still quite upset about this situation and continue to pray for a happy outcome. Again, this is a very gentle request. Thank you.
But this thread is not about Denise. That thread was, if I recall properly, somewhere along the lines of "Help, I think my sister is missing', and the poor OP was quickly equated by veterans on this forum as being perhaps not very straight forward, not to be trusted, told that no info would be given to him, but if she was seen she might be told about him searching for her.May I please make a gentle request? I mean no offence, but I feel that we may be poised here to veer off into lightheartedness. Normally, that would be fine, but this thread started off seriously, in connection with Denise's disappearance, and I wouldn't feel comfortable if it were to turn jocular. The direction the conversation is taking could still make for a very interesting discussion but perhaps, out of respect for Denise and her family, we could continue this discussion on another thread. I remain still quite upset about this situation and continue to pray for a happy outcome. Again, this is a very gentle request. Thank you.
Mea culpa. Perhaps Ivar can work his magic.The direction the conversation is taking could still make for a very interesting discussion but perhaps, out of respect for Denise and her family, we could continue this discussion on another thread. I remain still quite upset about this situation and continue to pray for a happy outcome. Again, this is a very gentle request. Thank you.
Can you please shed some light on acronyms such as APOC and OP? Thank youIf you check the OP, and then the third post down, you will see that it is initially about a post on APOC, and then the OP refers explicitly to a post about Denise. So without making a fuss, or getting too snooty about it all, it is about her.
It is in direct reference to an APOC post about her. Just saying.
@Peregrinopaul, in all honesty, I was not referring to any post of yours; I was thinking wholly of the probability of what was to come. Peace ....Mea culpa. Perhaps Ivar can work his magic.
Coger "to grab" is my new word of the day! That could make for some really interesting sentences.
Any other words that have normal meanings in one Spanish country but which could raise eyebrows elsewhere?
... At the same time, if I had been molested/harassed/bothered on the Camino by a man because I am a woman I wouldn't feel welcome to post about it in this thread and maybe not in this forum.
Well, in this thread in particular because the subject was quickly diverted. Overall, I think the tendency lately has been to offer encouragement to women who are frightened and to curb hysteria--which, like I said, I think is good, but also might have the unintended affect of not welcoming stories we don't want to hear.Why not??? SY
I perceive that the facts are always welcome. Sometimes the editorializing that accompanies them may irritate some readers.not welcoming stories we don't want to hear.
I saw it more as some were trying to get others to share their fear. There is a lot of hand-holding in the Forum to help nervous pilgrims. That hand-holding becomes twisted when there is a persistent demand to share the fear. I think veterans mostly urge perspective; keep the dangers in proportion. Those who have been victims may want the rest of us to show empathy by feeling the victimhood. I think we can assure everyone that we understand victims when we read the facts of the event. Scaring the horses may not be useful.I have seen a marked tendency to dismiss concerns
Mark from what the reporter wrote I understand that they have come across some "weird accidents", recently and on that particular stretch.
Ben detto.I saw it more as some were trying to get others to share their fear. There is a lot of hand-holding in the Forum to help nervous pilgrims. That hand-holding becomes twisted when there is a persistent demand to share the fear. I think veterans mostly urge perspective; keep the dangers in proportion. Those who have been victims may want the rest of us to show empathy by feeling the victimhood. I think we can assure everyone that we understand victims when we read the facts of the event. Scaring the horses may not be useful.
I can't wait to go. I know how off-topic my comment is, but seriously, I wish I were leaving tomorrow.This may be sexist or age-ist, but I only heard "creep" stories from the younger female pilgrims. Attractive young women attract attention anywhere. Humans are on the camino, but it feels to me far safer than any other kind of travel. A couple of times drunks were annoying, but that was it.
In order to get a true idea of reported crimes along the Camino Frances (SJPdP to SDC) and I use this route as an example because of its popularity, one would have to go to each individual law enforcement agency along the route and specifically pick out the incidents that occurred where a pilgrim was the victim, and then from there break it down into categories, such as assault, theft, etc. It's possible the Spanish government does that already and compiles an annual report on the matter.
For the reporter to just say the police were talking to various women who were molested without going into detail as to the specifics of the incidents is irresponsible. The old "who, what, when, where and how" is left out and the reader may be left with an impression that walking the CF is a dangerous thing.
The reporter may very well be poorly versed in police matters and not even familiar with the criminal or penal code of Spain and the different states there. I'm sure the reporter didn't even look at a single incident report prior to making that statement in his/her story.
You really have to take what you read in a media story with a grain of salt.
One of the saner summaries on this topic.Mark:
This whole conversation is based on an awful lot of assumption. Considering we do not have the facts, access to research or personally know the individuals who wrote the articles, I plan to refer back to what I know.
In 5 Camino's, I have witnessed an occasional minor theft and one situation where a Pilgrim attempted to molest a young woman. This was quickly dealt with by other men in the Albergue.
I believe the Camino is one of the safest places on the planet. Given Pilgrims come from all over the planet, there are lots of opportunity for misunderstanding. That said, Pilgrims, imo, present themselves in a better fashion than most groups of society I have encountered.
In regards to the Spanish people I have encountered along the way, they have always been supportive and helpful.
I have no interaction with Spanish authorities but suspect they are as professional as their peers worldwide.
Sorry for the preaching.
Ultreya,
Joe
i could supply you w/ one (creep story en camino) - and i am not in the 'younger female pilgrim' anymore (unless you'd be 110 yrs old or so, then i might still qualify for 'younger female pilgrim')This may be sexist or age-ist, but I only heard "creep" stories from the younger female pilgrims. Attractive young women attract attention anywhere. Humans are on the camino, but it feels to me far safer than any other kind of travel. A couple of times drunks were annoying, but that was it.
i could supply you w/ one (creep story en camino) - and i am not in the 'younger female pilgrim' anymore (unless you'd be 110 yrs old or so, then i might still qualify for 'younger female pilgrim')
I live in Spain. My view is that I am safer on the open road here (especially the camino) than in my own kitchen . I try not to let my irritation show but I do get "molested" (as in irritated/irked) about the perception of crime in Spain on this forum and especially the camino and even more so the implied hicksville abilities of the police forces here.
Spain is NOT perfect (60% youth unemployment in my town) but violence by person or persons unknown is minimal here compared to most countries in the world. Punto, pelota.
I thought the same thing, however I just returned from the Via De la Plata/Camino Sanabres and just after Orense I encountered a shepherd in an isolated place in the trees. We spoke briefly, he asked me where I was from, how old I was and where my husband was (I did say I was solo), and then he grabbed me and kissed me. I turned and walked away and he called after me and pointed to himself, then me and then the bushes! I said "no" and walked away as quick as possible. I am 61 years old...so that changed my ageist thinking! I was a little creeped out but decided maybe I was a little too friendly and he saw an opportunity. It was my 4th solo Camino and I still feel it is much safer than most other places I have traveled.This may be sexist or age-ist, but I only heard "creep" stories from the younger female pilgrims. Attractive young women attract attention anywhere. Humans are on the camino, but it feels to me far safer than any other kind of travel. A couple of times drunks were annoying, but that was it.
Shepards in Bushes or gun packing Vigilantes in Texas. . . where do I feel the safest? Where ever I am. I travel with myself, well prepared and situationally aware, but never frightened. I choose not to live frightened of the danger that is in our world. I flew for the airlines and after 9-11 you had to make up your mind to continue with life, unafraid. I read everything and love all the posts here and appreciate everyone's comments and perspective. We are all better together in a forum, having these conversations than alone with our fears. Humor counts. Sometimes you just have to be able to find the humor. There is real danger in our world, but life is amazing and the Camino is a Peak Life Experience for Pilgrims. Worth every step. I still pray for Denise every day.
I understand the desire for levity, as well as the need to head off any potential hysteria about crimes against women on the Camino. At the same time, if I had been molested/harassed/bothered on the Camino by a man because I am a woman I wouldn't feel welcome to post about it in this thread and maybe not in this forum.
I had what I will call a "creepy experience". A young man called to me from behind "Hola Perigrina". I turned saw the man ov about 25 years of age. I am 55 years old. He introduced himself as Jose from Burgos and asked my name. Then he shook my hand, pulled me close and stuck his tongue in my mouth. I pushed him away and said No and wiped my mouth. He tried one more time, then left when I refused. As he was walking away, I called "Jose". When he turned around I took his picture with my phone.Someone on the American pilgrim site posted this. I read that the police has been talking to various women who said they had been molested. Has any of you had this kind of experience? http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias/provincia/mes-muchos-interrogantes_976412.html
Good Lord. We didn't need to scratch the surface very much to start hearing the stories. It sounds to me like the women need to not take anyone's hand. I would report anything at this time.I had what I will call a "creepy experience". A young man called to me from behind "Hola Perigrina". I turned saw the man ov about 25 years of age. I am 55 years old. He introduced himself as Jose from Burgos and asked my name. Then he shook my hand, pulled me close and stuck his tongue in my mouth. I pushed him away and said No and wiped my mouth. He tried one more time, then left when I refused. As he was walking away, I called "Jose". When he turned around I took his picture with my phone.
Does this sound to any of you readers like something I should report? I am home now and this happened over two weeks ago just west of Puente de Reina along the river not far out of town.
Thanks
I'm glad you feel able to tell your story and in my opinion you should report it, and supply the photo you took also. A good kick up the rear and other things I'll refrain from saying is what he deserves!I had what I will call a "creepy experience". A young man called to me from behind "Hola Perigrina". I turned saw the man ov about 25 years of age. I am 55 years old. He introduced himself as Jose from Burgos and asked my name. Then he shook my hand, pulled me close and stuck his tongue in my mouth. I pushed him away and said No and wiped my mouth. He tried one more time, then left when I refused. As he was walking away, I called "Jose". When he turned around I took his picture with my phone.
Does this sound to any of you readers like something I should report? I am home now and this happened over two weeks ago just west of Puente de Reina along the river not far out of town.
Thanks
Snip...
Does this sound to any of you readers like something I should report? I am home now and this happened over two weeks ago just west of Puente de Reina along the river not far out of town.
Thanks
That's my view. At least, if I do shake hands I do it warily. I am suspicious of overly friendly strangers.It sounds to me like the women need to not take anyone's hand.
Why do females, in particular, feel that they need to be "friendly" or smile or shake someone's hand. Why? Men don't feel the need. I've had heard fellow crew members say to a passenger, "smile, it can't be that bad!" I told them, "how do you know? It might be that bad." It's one of the things people always hate or love about Americans. "you guys are so friendly, you're always smiling." I just want to say here that I'm very friendly, but if I don't know you I feel no need to engage. I don't walk up to someone and start talking or asking questions. Women are judged if we aren't "friendly". We need to learn to be a little more skeptical and keep our distance initially. If some guy grabbed my hand and stuck his tongue in my mouth he'd be lying on the ground looking up and one of us would be going to jail. That is just wrong on so many levels. I don't want to sound like I'm "Judging". I've been grouped too, but we need to be self-aware and more protective of our physical environment. Just one more reason I carry poles. They have sharp pointy ends.
I had what I will call a "creepy experience". A young man called to me from behind "Hola Perigrina". I turned saw the man ov about 25 years of age. I am 55 years old. He introduced himself as Jose from Burgos and asked my name. Then he shook my hand, pulled me close and stuck his tongue in my mouth. I pushed him away and said No and wiped my mouth. He tried one more time, then left when I refused. As he was walking away, I called "Jose". When he turned around I took his picture with my phone.
Does this sound to any of you readers like something I should report? I am home now and this happened over two weeks ago just west of Puente de Reina along the river not far out of town.
Thanks
I endorse that idea! Having been raised on John Wayne movies, I love instant justice as much as the next American, but none of these events are happening in the U.S., and the Spanish legal system is quite different. It is a civil law system based on Roman law, something quite different from the U.S. common law system. Ideas like trying to shame a perpetrator to his neighbors might work out quite differently than it does in the U.S.You really do not want to get involved with the Spanish legal system if you can avoid it.
Being a creep knows no financial, social or educational boundaries unfortunately. I was assaulted while hitch-hiking at the age of 16 by a wealthy, well spoken pervert driving a brand new Mercedes.Culturally speaking, what do Spanish men think women walking alone are up to? Think about that one. Not the educated Spanish men, I'm talking blue collar...
Being a creep knows no financial, social or educational boundaries unfortunately. I was assaulted while hitch-hiking at the age of 16 by a wealthy, well spoken pervert driving a brand new Mercedes.
To suggest that "Latvian or Lesbian" are just as likely to sexually assault is not helpful. In the camino context, this is a behaviour of Spanish males and a threat to solo female pilgrims. Please do not minimize it.
To suggest that "Latvian or Lesbian" are just as likely to sexually assault is not helpful. In the camino context, this is a behaviour of Spanish males and a threat to solo female pilgrims. Please do not minimize it.
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