Rod Murray
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2016 CF 2019 PC
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I am Episcopalian, and always took communion along the route and in Santiago. Sometimes, I announced my Protestant faith and was usually told Bishops made allowances for non-Catholic pilgrims. I am sorry to hear Santiago's announcement that only RCs can receive. Kinda like walking a path of faith yet, having door slammed in your face at end-of- line.
We are one Quaker, one Anglican. As a Quaker I don't take part in the Eucharist, but my Anglican husband does, even in Catholic churches. He was a bit taken aback by the announcement in SdC in the cathedral, that only baptised Catholics could participate - even though this is probably technically accurate, it seemed a bit unfriendly, especially as he was made welcome at other small churches on our two caminos so far. His comment on this suggestion is that an Anglican centre in SdC doesn't seem "quite right" as part of the joy of the Camino is sharing in the tradition.
The complicated and highly emotive issue of communion for non-Catholics has been discussed at some length on this forum before. A difficult problem which I would respectfully suggest is far more involved than "seemed a little unfriendly" would imply. While setting up an Anglican chaplaincy to offer a sacramental ministry to Protestant pilgrims may at first sight seem a retrograde and divisive step I think that it would simply be a practical pastoral response to a sad reality. Like it or not the division exists - so how should the various churches best deal with it?
I really do not know where they got the notion that the majority of pilgrims, even English-speaking pilgrims, were Protestant. I spent an hour or two trying to figure out the likely proportion of Protestants against Catholics (for the sake of argument, I included the Anglicans among the Protestants, although there are many Anglicans who would contest this) and came up with 20-25% for Protestants, about 65% for RCs, and 5% for other religions (among which I put Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and the increasing numbers of Orthodox), and the remainder of no affiliation whatsoever. I took the numbers of pilgrims from each country, and then simply applied the census figures for religion to each one--- it's a method which can be fairly criticized, but it will give us rough figures. I know the makeup of Canadian pilgrims quite well, and I estimated a majority of RCs there.
In any case, the cathedral and diocesan authorities in Santiago have been hospitable in providing chapels for the use of groups of Anglican pilgrims-- I'm really not sure where this initiative comes from.
Setting aside any complex theological debates for me personally there is a very simple moral issue here. As an Anglican I am always aware of being to some extent a guest when in a Catholic church. If I receive the many precious gifts which I am freely and generously offered there with thanks then I am a friend and a brother. If I take something precious which I have been refused or denied then I am a thief.
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Thank you Saint Mike! We live in the UK and we know that High Anglicans are very like Catholics. And even though I am a Quaker, I enjoy Catholic Mass whenever I do attend. (I am also a Lutheran, as well as a Quaker, as it happens.)Hola Barbara - I am a very poor Catholic & my Spanish is even less but I have never actually been asked if I was a Catholic before I was allowed to take communion. I doubt the Cathedral could cope if every single person seeking communion was asked "are you a baptised Catholic??" My advice - if you (or your husband) are practicing Christians, in good standing with your home church then you are able to participate fully in the mass. (BTW - if you get to England - go the Canterbury Cathedral - you will notice that there is very little difference between "High Church of England" services and a Catholic Mass!) Cheers
I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way, but where we live in the UK, a lot of people at the grass roots are quite relaxed about Anglican / Catholic communion-sharing. Obviously if it is made clear that the particular church does not welcome this, it doesn't happen. We all come from different backgrounds and are used to different approaches.Absolutely agreeing with Bradypus.
Why oh why would any one take something that has no meaning to you (the Protestant Church turned away from the belief in transhumance) and is sacred to others? Because the ritual is similar? If instead of eating a wafer or piece of bred, the Catholic Church did something different, something unpleasing for example, would non Catholics be hearing the calling to participate?
Has the Camino not taught people about respect, about generosity, about checking egos at the door? So why oh why take communion in a Catholic church unless you have been invited to, and especially when you have been asked not to? Must people insult the very same organisation/faith that has given them the Camino?
"It's my Camino" until the very end. Alas the penny has not dropped.
@JohnnieWalker1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability.
And, of course, we still don't know if Anglican numbers warrant a presence- so I am interested to see if the Camino Chaplaincy can do a pilot project and how that works out. Perhaps if Albertagirl could give us an idea of what more might be involved than liturgical support to Anglicans?? This could be a helpful start to a discussion.
Hi Tia this is totally correct, as an Anglican priest in N Ireland I have often been required to supply confirmation of baptism, for weddings, to my brothers in the Roman Catholic Priesthood and this is because Anglicans/ Episcopalians are Catholic whilst not Roman Catholic.As far as I am aware Anglican and Catholic churches recognise one another's baptism so that in itself is not a barrier. The need to be baptised is a requirement of both to receive the sacrament, and in the Anglican church you also have to have been confirmed or awaiting confirmation.
but my Anglican husband does, even in Catholic churches.
He was a bit taken aback by the announcement in SdC in the cathedral, that only baptised Catholics could participate - even though this is probably technically accurate, it seemed a bit unfriendly, especially as he was made welcome at other small churches on our two caminos so far.
His comment on this suggestion is that an Anglican centre in SdC doesn't seem "quite right" as part of the joy of the Camino is sharing in the tradition.
It is probably worth observing that the Anglican eucharist is open to Christians of other traditions. Lutherans, Methodists, Reformed and many others are welcome to receive the sacrament and I can see no reason why an Anglican chaplaincy should not welcome them too. The potential pool of those to be served is therefore considerably wider than Anglicans alone.
Hi Johnnie Wonderful to hear Sign me up! My wife (A Parish reader) and I have walked from St Jean twice, Sarria once and next year, with our granddaughter , Ponferrada to Santiago. I reach retirement age in two weeks time!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:
1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability. We also have to resolve the debate on whether different religious traditions should have separate facilities or whether there may be a way and a place for them to work more closely together.
2 On the issue of intercommunion like Bogong I have never contributed to these discussions - they are almost too personal and the divisions articulated too painful. However I believe that whilst there are "rules" regarding these matters there is also a very respectable position held by many within the Roman Catholic Church and other traditions that the Internal Forum is supreme - and it is this Forum, the relationship with God which Bogong eloquently describes. I say be guided by the rules but decide on whether or not to go to communion according to your conscience.
As a Catholic, I would not be able to partake of such communions, regardless of the openness proposed.
I think that as a Catholic you should not find it difficult to find an acceptable alternative in a city like Santiago.
!!!!! erm ...
Far from being a "minor thing", the Real Presence of Christ in Eucharist is the very heart of the Holy Mass. Deny it, and you simply cannot take Communion.
Most of the offending posts have been deleted.With all due apologies to @JohnnieWalker....
The thread has lost all coherent content. The discussion has turned very personal and insulting.
The thread is being locked for that reason...not because of the subject matter.
Perfectly put, I wish I could give 100 likes for this.The biggest problem it seems to me is when the discussion moves drastically away from the original post. So a plea to my fellow members - can we all try to keep to the point and think twice about the words we use to disagree with each other especially in this area which often concerns personal religious beliefs? Respect for each other must be paramount.
I love the idea of having a Welcome Center in Madrid. Those getting off the plane could stop in, pick up their credencial, get a blessing and perhaps be briefed on the particuliarties of Catholics and the meaning communion has for them. They could also be informed of the services held at the Cathedral that are for non-Catholics, and perhpas even about Pilgrim House. More services for some, less disregard towards the requests of the Santiago cathedral, and perhaps other congregations along the Camino.
There have been many sincere and thought-provoking responses to the topic under discussion, but IMO Johnnie's response breaks down the two basic issues quite succinctly and hits the nail on the head on both.I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:
1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space. We suggest a trial period because in the absence of statistics we don't know whether there would be sufficient demand for this ministry to ensure its viability. We also have to resolve the debate on whether different religious traditions should have separate facilities or whether there may be a way and a place for them to work more closely together.
2 On the issue of intercommunion like Bogong I have never contributed to these discussions - they are almost too personal and the divisions articulated too painful. However I believe that whilst there are "rules" regarding these matters there is also a very respectable position held by many within the Roman Catholic Church and other traditions that the Internal Forum is supreme - and it is this Forum, the relationship with God which Bogong eloquently describes. I say be guided by the rules but decide on whether or not to go to communion according to your conscience.
Here is a link to an article appearing in the Anglican Church of Canada Journal from earlier this year about a proposal for an Anglican Centre in SdC.
http://www.anglicanjournal.com/articles/new-anglican-centre-proposed-for-santiago-de-compostela
In it the Secretary to the Anglican Bishop of Spain states that there are more Protestants than Catholics on the Camino and one of the intentions of such a Centre would be a place for Protestants to receive the Eucharist in SdC. Are there statistics available anywhere that would further substantiate this claim?
I am thankful for what I receive from the Camino as it is. You say it much better than I can. Thank you.Setting aside any complex theological debates for me personally there is a very simple moral issue here. As an Anglican I am always aware of being to some extent a guest when in a Catholic church. If I receive the many precious gifts which I am freely and generously offered there with thanks then I am a friend and a brother. If I take something precious which I have been refused or denied then I am a thief.
I agree with @JohnnieWalker that the idea of spending such a large sum on a dedicated Anglican centre seems ludicrous: a overpriced sledgehammer to crack a fairly small nut. The generous hospitality which the cathedral has shown in the past to visitors of other denominations suggests a simpler and more modest approach.
I'd like to make two points from the discussion above:
1 The Camino Chaplaincy has been trying to identify an Anglican priest who has made the pilgrimage to Santiago who with the support of the Anglican Bishop of Europe might be willing to come to Santiago for a trial period of 6 months. We would discuss with them how we might assist in finding accommodation and a worship space.
Hello Johnnie Walker,
I am a compostela-certified Anglican priest from Canada: Pamplona to Santiago (2014), Santiago to Muxia (2015), O'Cebreiro to Santiago (2016). I would be interested in hearing more about the possibility of coming to Santiago for a 6 month trial period. How can I find out more?
Apologies if this article was posted recently here on the Forum. It looks like they are still moving forward with plans for the center: https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2...h-an-anglican-centre-for-camino-pilgrims.aspx
Yup. That’s nuts that there’s not a collaboration. As a United Methodist clergy, myself, I’d love to see the rubric for chaplains to be expanded to include others of us not in the Anglican Communion but still in the broader Anglican tradition to help out.
I saw the article when it came out: I thought it puzzling that there was no reference to the existing Anglican chaplaincy at Santa Susana's, as many US Episcopal church members, including clergy and bishops, have participated in services there. US$23,594 is a fair distance from US$5 million.
There are two separate but complementary Anglican jurisdictions in Spain. The Church of England's Diocese in Europe provides English-language Anglican chaplaincies mostly for resident ex-pats and holidaymakers. There is also an independent Spanish-language province with permanent parishes for a relatively small number of Spanish Anglicans: the Iglesia Española Reformada Episcopal. The current Anglican Camino Chaplaincy is run in association with the Church of England Diocese in Europe while the project being proposed by the US Anglican group is intended to be a joint project of ECUSA and IERE.@SYates - are the two groups (yours and the US Anglicans) two different "streams" of the Anglican church?
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