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I've not yet looked at the article but I need to reply. I have just commented about this in an email conversation. And in exactly the same context that led you to a search. Bingo! Or ... great minds ...?A friend who is a historian has alerted me to the dangers of reading the past with modern understandings!
Thank you. Her name is Philomena!Now retired, I made my living as a historian - your friend is a very wise man indeed!
Fortunately we do change, in fits and starts.Oh dear! A friend who is a historian has alerted me to the dangers of reading the past with modern understandings!
There are so many kinds of pilgrimages and motivations for them, in all faith traditions.This website appeared first. Any contributions that will help expand knowledge and understanding is bound to be useful.
Now and again you come across a church where Santiago Matamoros has been removed. With a conspicuous blank space left behind. Or an image where the unfortunate Moors are made invisible with strategically placed flowers. It is a challenging image for 21st century sensibilities. But like it or not it was the idea of a triumphant militant Santiago Matamoros which built the town as an international pilgrimage destination - not the much loved and far more approachable Santiago Peregrino we see so much today. A lot of Christian history leaves a sour taste in modern mouths but it cannot simply be airbrushed away.Political correctness has its place in C20 and C21.
Santiago, Matamoros? Oh dear!
Very true.A lot of Christian history leaves a sour taste in modern mouths but it cannot simply be airbrushed away.
I agree. My concern is that we modern humans have a remarkable gift for self-deception and anachronistic thinking. So it becomes very easy to assume that today's inclusive "non-judgmental" Camino is the way things have always been. It is very easy to project an idealised and sanitised notion of history into the past. Especially if by doing so you paper over present day consequences. Sometimes we just have to face unpleasant facts head on.Very true.
At the same time I am glad we are putting those statues away someplace less conspicuous. And inclining our pilgrimages to connection instead.
There is enough hatred in the world without glorifying it.
A couple of years ago my all-time favourite Facebook post appeared on an American Camino group. It missed the point that the church's claims on the Camino were several hundred years earlier. But that was the least of the issuesWe now know that some thousands of years ago the tribes from what is now northern Scotland and the islands made their way south to the great stone henge near Salisbury.
There is no such thing as non-judgmental…beliefs, values and the “correctness “ change and peoples judgments follow them.I agree. My concern is that we modern humans have a remarkable gift for self-deception and anachronistic thinking. So it becomes very easy to assume that today's inclusive "non-judgmental" Camino is the way things have always been. It is very easy to project an idealised and sanitised notion of history into the past. Especially if by doing so you paper over present day consequences. Sometimes we just have to face unpleasant facts head on.
One good place to start is the pilgrim mindset in the middle ages, which is inspired by Catholic theology of the time. The concepts of heaven, hell, and the process for gaining either were ... a little different from our modern perspective. Cluny Abbey financed much of the pilgrimage infrastructure, and an excellent history is "Cluny: In Search of God's Lost Empire" by Edwin Williams. Also Amazon has a long list of titles from academic historians if you search on "pilgrimage in the middle ages". Some of those titles might be available through your local library.the above idea.
The first paragraph of your link sums up “pilgrimage” definition pretty well I think:Reading @vanrobin's post about the present location of a statue of Santiago Matamoros in SdeC Cathedral led me to search for the above idea. This website appeared first. Any contributions that will help expand knowledge and understanding is bound to be useful. Political correctness has its place in C20 and C21.
Santiago, Matamoros? Oh dear! A friend who is a historian has alerted me to the dangers of reading the past with modern understandings!
I look forward to learning from other forum members.
Discover British history
We are committed to preserving history and helping you discover Britain's beauty. Explore the rich natural history of Britain and learn about our work.www.nationaltrust.org.uk
Kitsambler,One good place to start is the pilgrim mindset in the middle ages, which is inspired by Catholic theology of the time. The concepts of heaven, hell, and the process for gaining either were ... a little different from our modern perspective. Cluny Abbey financed much of the pilgrimage infrastructure, and an excellent history is "Cluny: In Search of God's Lost Empire" by Edwin Williams. Also Amazon has a long list of titles from academic historians if you search on "pilgrimage in the middle ages". Some of those titles might be available through your local library.
Oh, that is just too wonderful!!!A couple of years ago my all-time favourite Facebook post appeared on an American Camino group. It missed the point that the church's claims on the Camino were several hundred years earlier. But that was the least of the issues
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Hmm, for me there is what is and what I am prepared to do about things that I can change in some manner. Hope is a fantasy, it is what I have when I buy a lottery ticket.But one thing we don't talk about much in this context is hope.
I get that you are hinting at learning and growth and a pilgrimage can concentrate opportunities for learning by placing ourselves in a constantly changing environment where we are outside of our regular companions.Hope for cure, hope for healing of the dark places of the heart, hope to find our better angels along the way.
I actually agree with you 100%.Hmm, for me there is what is and what I am prepared to do about things that I can change in some manner. Hope is a fantasy, it is what I have when I buy a lottery ticket.
It just goes to show that pilgrimage coalesces around a story, one that people can deeply relate to - and more often than not those stories are complete myths.As to history ... just a reminder. Some things did not happen:
- Santiago The Apostle: Very little is documented. It is doubtful that he was a missionary in Spain. I'll leave it at that: doubtful.
- Santiago The Pilgrim: Did not happen. The Apostle James was not a pilgrim with pilgrim shells on his hat on the way to himself in Santiago de Compostela.
- Santiago The Knight: Did not happen. The Apostle James did not return to earth some 800 years after his death. He did not ride a horse on earth. He did not kill anyone on earth with his sword.
Thanks.but focusing instead on possibility is incredibly freeing.
Oh, yes! On a kitchen table level, reading the past with modern understandings is one major reason some parents and grandparents can’t understand or tolerate the activities of their kids who are simply creating a new history of their own generation.Reading @vanrobin's post about the present location of a statue of Santiago Matamoros in SdeC Cathedral led me to search for the above idea. This website appeared first. Any contributions that will help expand knowledge and understanding is bound to be useful. Political correctness has its place in C20 and C21.
Santiago, Matamoros? Oh dear! A friend who is a historian has alerted me to the dangers of reading the past with modern understandings!
I look forward to learning from other forum members.
Discover British history
We are committed to preserving history and helping you discover Britain's beauty. Explore the rich natural history of Britain and learn about our work.www.nationaltrust.org.uk
I think we're on to something here: Pilgrimage is a physical story.It just goes to show that pilgrimage coalesces around a story...
On the other hand, Santiago, who "provides" for pilgrims who walk the Camino today? I'm not going to say it happens. But I'm not going to dispute those who say that was their experience, either.As to history ... just a reminder. Some things did not happen:
I felt it needed to be said
- Santiago The Apostle: Very little is documented. It is doubtful that he was a missionary in Spain. I'll leave it at that: doubtful.
- Santiago The Pilgrim: Did not happen. The Apostle James was not a pilgrim with pilgrim shells on his hat on the way to himself in Santiago de Compostela.
- Santiago The Knight: Did not happen. The Apostle James did not return to earth some 800 years after his death. He did not ride a horse on earth. He did not kill anyone on earth with his sword.
. You can blame Christian history for a lot of terrible real events but not for these fictional events.
This definition is wrong.A pilgrimage is a devotional practice consisting of a prolonged journey, often undertaken on foot or on horseback, toward a specific destination of significance. It is an inherently transient experience, removing the participant from his or her home environment and identity. The means or motivations in undertaking a pilgrimage might vary, but the act, however performed, blends the physical and the spiritual into a unified experience.
In the Christian pilgrimage tradition, the practice revolves around visiting either sites significant in the Bible — particularly those concerning the life of Christ — or in the lives of saints, or paying reverence to holy relics.
That is to seriously underestimate the importance of Fátima, Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mount Athos, Montserrat, and other major shrines, both East and West.The three main destinations of Christian pilgrimage are Jerusalem, Rome, and Santiago de Compostela
Literacy was less uncommon than you suppose, though of course it was not near universal as it is now in the West. What practically nobody had was personal ownership of written texts -- not even monks living among books every day owned those volumes themselves, but they belonged collectively to monastery, Abbey, or Church.How can we understand a past world in which practically nobody was literate
Actually, that's more from the invention of the printing press than from literacy per se.But today literacy is more common and as a result a wider variety of POVs are accessible to each of us, bringing many different opinions which are often in conflict.
on organised pilgrimages, those who know each other through parish or diocese can travel together as a group,
Do you hear that often? That Santiago "provides"? Or that Saint James "provides"?On the other hand, Santiago, who "provides" for pilgrims who walk the Camino today? I'm not going to say it happens. But I'm not going to dispute those who say that was their experience, either.
I have heard people saying that the saint is looking out for them in the same types of situations that bring forth "the Camino provides".Do you hear that often? That Santiago "provides"? Or that Saint James "provides"?
I usually hear or read that the Camino provides.
I never know who that Camino is for them. The road? The Apostle? God? The Universe? Angels? The municipalities, regional governments and taxpayers? People working and living in the vicinity? The unique and glorious combination of small towns, nature, food, climate, and the whole infrastructure that has been created not so much to provide social benefits, health benefits and charity for global travellers but to give positive impulses and stimulate the local and regional economy?
Ah, the shifting goalposts in online discussionsI have heard people saying that the saint is looking out for them in the same types of situations that bring forth "the Camino provides".
You'd have to ask the people saying it, but I doubt they're the same thing, since people who contend the camino provides often say they are not religious.I wondered what "The Camino provides" means. Obviously not the same as "Santiago provides" or does it?
Excellent summaries! Excellent link!In between tasks, here is another link. I thought the second box on the left, of six boxes on screen near the beginning, could have been written for the Forum!
This:Agreement is not the point. Expanding the topic is.
You'd have to ask the people saying it, but I doubt they're the same thing, since people who contend the camino provides often say they are not religious.
The Camino provides? As if it is a god or a sentient entity who knows what we need? It's quite a paradox if you ask me, since a way - a path - is an empty space between things where people and animals can walk. It is an absence rather than a presence.
But people like it and repeat it. Certainly saying that is a convenient way to quell the discomfort of how vulnerable we can feel when we throw caution to the wind and just trust that we will cope with whatever comes. Or not.
I think many people who walk the Camino have a sense that they are provided for. Of course, they are in many cases and the person or organization directly providing is clear and visible. But many have a sense that things work out or will work out beyond the obvious and physical. To whom or what they attribute that depends on the nature of their overall beliefs and inclinations.Ah, the shifting goalposts in online discussions. I had wondered whether one hears it often, or which version one hears most often. I do know that the faithful are assisted by their saints. But aren't we discussing the views and beliefs of the contemporary global international all-faiths and none and everything-in-between members of the Camino Pilgrimage Community?
If someone says with confidence that "Santiago provides" they mean, in all likelihood, that Saint James will look after them. I wondered what "The Camino provides" means. Obviously not the same as "Santiago provides" or does it?
On the forum, I mostly read this slogan of being provided for by some higher authority or power on the Camino in the context of concerns about finding a bed for the night in a timely manner, sometimes during pilgrimage peak season.We hear stories of St. James providing a well or stream for thirsty pilgrims, or saving the life of a pilgrim boy unjustly hanged for a crime he did not commit. Many of the faithful have the idea that the saint is still active in protecting his pilgrims.
Fundamentally, God.Do you hear that often? That Santiago "provides"? Or that Saint James "provides"?
I usually hear or read that the Camino provides.
I never know who that Camino is for them. The road? The Apostle? God? The Universe? Angels? The municipalities, regional governments and taxpayers? People working and living in the vicinity? The unique and glorious combination of small towns, nature, food, climate, and the whole infrastructure that has been created not so much to provide social benefits, health benefits and charity for global travellers but to give positive impulses and stimulate the local and regional economy?
A much better source for the basics of it.So far, so good! At least I have not yet forgotten I started off this thread!
In between tasks, here is another link. I thought the second box on the left, of six boxes on screen near the beginning, could have been written for the Forum!
I can be slow to digest some information and points made. I do really thank each one for your contributions. Agreement is not the point. Expanding the topic is.
I would contest that particular religious view of things as being pertinent to this Christian pilgrimage Way as it exists.The universe is one thing and there are no separate parts. True, there are different shapes but it is only one thing - we cannot be separate from it in any way ... add in consciousness and we have what the Hindu describes as "not one, not two" - the illusion of being 'separate' .... the universe manifested is one thing and our seeing ourselves (or anything else) as separate is an illusion, a delusion.
And this philosophy.we flow into an awareness of how the universe actually works
I do?The mistake you are making is that you think you are an isolated 'you' and 'out there' is somehow a separate thing
David, we may have to agree to disagree.there are just too many stories of this happening on Camino for it to be ignored or brushed off, don't you think?
Some of us, when we are on pilgrimage, are inclined to attribute to God, or Saint James, or "the camino" events which we might casually attribute to community spirit, or not even think about, when we are not on camino.
David thanks for sharing your comments which are good healthy food for thought.The mistake you are making is that you think you are an isolated 'you' and 'out there' is somehow a separate thing .. therefore that 'religious' people believe that a God on a rope can drop down and 'do something' ... but it is not your "absence rather than a presence" on Camino, it is the exact opposite.
The universe is one thing and there are no separate parts. True, there are different shapes but it is only one thing - we cannot be separate from it in any way ... add in consciousness and we have what the Hindu describes as "not one, not two" - the illusion of being 'separate' .... the universe manifested is one thing and our seeing ourselves (or anything else) as separate is an illusion, a delusion.
St Paul put it well "We live and move and have our Being within God" - is the same thing but described differently, his awareness that the Universe (which he sees as God - as do I) is one thing.
What may happen on Camino is that with everyone away from their homes and worries and ties we flow into an awareness of how the universe actually works, that oneness, that moving and living within this extraordinary manifestation .... and how it can work, if allowed, is to fill a vacuum so need can be answered .... there are just too many stories of this happening on Camino for it to be ignored or brushed off, don't you think?
As for your "the discomfort of how vulnerable we can feel when we throw caution to the wind and just trust that we will cope with whatever comes" Again, I do not see it like this. Everyone I meet out there has been empowered and become brave by that very throwing caution to the wind - the unhappy and fearful ones being the ones who found themselves unable to do that, to let go and trust that all will be well.
If one lives one life, one's awareness, of how the universe is .. well, these things happen off Camino too - all the time.
Here is a tiny thing. I wanted/needed a Vegetarian cookbook. Not a fancy '50 recipes' one but a real 'complete' Vegetarian cookbook. So yesterday I trawled the charity shops, then Waterstones bookshop (way TOO expensive and not the right style either). This morning I thought "oh, what about that charity shop that is at the other end of town, I forgot about that one" - Aww, but it is a long way to walk - Go There. Aww, but it is raining - Go There ... so I went there. On the bookshelves the cookery books had been stacked horizontally. On the top of the stack was "The Complete Book of Vegetarian Cooking", ready for me to pick up .. was the only Veggie book there too - so went home with exactly what I wanted/needed. Now this serendipity can be brushed of as coincidence, but it wasn't. it was co-incidence, and this is exactly how the universe works. So on Camino? Of course, how else could it be???
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I do?
Haha. Hardly. Just the opposite.
David, we may have to agree to disagree.
Human beings naturally have a confirmation bias that makes connections where there actually are none. While someone may subjectively experience a coincidence as meaningful, this alone doesn't give any objective meaning to it. Magical thinking finds patterns everywhere that simply don't exist.
If we come to the camino with preconceived ideas about its potency, we may actually be undervaluing the simple but profound human kindness that is actually playing out. As @Albertagirl quite perceptively points out:
I'm not discounting mystery, but have no interest in making more of it than it is, trying to package it as a 'something,' or even to explain it.
Wondering aloud: Isn't that just another (very useful) kind of conformation bias?While I agree with VN that much of the things described as "the Camino provided" is simply serendipity and confirmation bias, I think that the expectation of "a helping hand" probably has it show up more often.
Absolutely.From personal experience I know that mystery exists. I am not interested in packaging it up or explaining it but I am interested in accessing it more consistently. Here, I am referring to things that are well beyond explanation.
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