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I'm sitting here with my mouth hanging open.there is evidence that Neolithic and early Bronze Age “pilgrims” brought the remains of their dead for inhumation in Galicia from as far as the Danube Delta
Thanks, that's enough to go on - I'll do a search.The topic was discussed here but a few years ago (2013/2015?) and I believe I cited a couple of sources. I simply don’t have the facility to go hunting tonight.
Is there any evidence that the individuals had died in the region where they were born and then were transported to Galicia posthumously? Not simply migrants living in Galicia at the time of death?where Isotope analysis had identified the likely natal origins of those remains.
Here is a link to that thread, Pre Christian Tracks, which dates mostly to 2013. I have locked that thread - not to stifle discussion in any way, but to help us follow the discussion in a single thread, rather than having two parallel threads going. (If we don't lock that thread, we will certainly get new posts in both.)A search for “pre-Christian tracks” thread from 2013 might pay-off. I can see I put at least one citation in there.
Evidence? We are talking archaeologyIs there any evidence that the individuals had died in the region where they were born and then were transported to Galicia posthumously? Not simply migrants living in Galicia at the time of death?
It's not Pagan vs. Christian! It is that religions recycle ideas.
In Egypt, I saw Christmas tree string lights being used as Ramadan lights. Or was it the Christians copying candlelight processions of ancient Egyptians?
-paul
Thanks for your question, it is a topic that can be very interesting if pursued for curiosity rather than proof.Thank you everyone for your posts. They are very helpful. And thank you also for helping me clarify my search by using the term pre-Christian instead of pagan. Buen Camino!
I think its shocking what The Lizards did to Erich von Däniken. But that's probably a topic for a different forum; not this oneOther than perhaps ancient mankind was seeking away to find a way back to the planet that deposited us here in the first place?
I've wondered who to blame for the introduction of bagpipes to Galacia. Obviously it was the lizard people!I think its shocking what The Lizards did to Erich von Däniken. But that's probably a topic for a different forum; not this one
You may find this site usefulI appreciated the various dolmens and caves I encountered in September 2022 along the del Norte. Is there any data on neolithic or mesolithic areas along the Primitivo as I am hoping to walk this caminio sometime this year...
That's how you spot them. They can't resist a good pibroch.I've wondered who to blame for the introduction of bagpipes to Galacia. Obviously it was the lizard people!
I kind of like rabbit holes - it is amazing what I find sometimes LOL!!!You may find this site useful
Beware of rabbit holes
This story / typo still has me in giggles ... but if the writer's wife had herself walked with the druids from Stonehenge to Finisterra in one of her former lives who am I to question it ...The writer then went on to explain that he knew this to be fact because his late wife had been part of that group in one of her 70+ previous incarnations.
I have the same question and I am also a little confused about what we are talking about in this thread.Is there any evidence that the individuals had died in the region where they were born and then were transported to Galicia posthumously? Not simply migrants living in Galicia at the time of death?
Los orígenes del Camino de Santiago I: El megalitismo en Fisterratwelve articles that were published (in Spanish) under the title "The Origin of the Camino de Santiago", with one article translated by him into English
No, the earliest route was to Jerusalem.Furthermore, the earliest Camino routes followed the Christian pilgrim ways to Rome, that had existed for centuries, just in the opposite direction.
The links do work but the text description contains a typo because, in English, the correct spelling is ophiolatry.
In the Iberian peninsula, the routes to Rome and to Jerusalem are the same routes.No, the earliest route was to Jerusalem.
It might be more correct to say the earliest destination was Jerusalem, or at least the Holy Land, and there would have been any numbers of ways to get there.No, the earliest route was to Jerusalem.
Because the Seljuk Turks have forbidden this pilgrimage, and following the failure of the crusades to re-open it, the pilgrimage to Santiago was set.
Thank you for sharing the links and for your summary. It will be a pleasure to read the articles.So, summarising now, we agree that humans walked around in Spain in all directions, north, south, east, west, and every in-between direction, for really many years before the first pilgrims to Saint James in Galicia appeared on the scene.
I checked how long humans lived near Atapuerca - 1,200,000 years? That's quite a bit of time.
Question now is: Before they got the bad news from Jerusalem in the year 62 or the year 66 or thereabouts, did people walk in the direction of Santiago in a sort of pilgrimagy way?
We have established a time frame but no distance frame yet. My guess is: In order to count for the purpose of this thread, they must have come walking from north of the Pyrenees or would any point on the Iberian territory count? On foot only or do we include boats and ships?
Wow! THANK YOU! This is an amazing beginning of a long search into the Pre-Christian origins, practices, and peoples of Galicia. I am very grateful.Los orígenes del Camino de Santiago I: El megalitismo en Fisterra
Los orígenes del Camino de Santiago II: Los ligures y cultos solares
El origen del Camino de Santiago III: Los celtas y el camino de las estrellas
El origen del Camino de Santiago IV: Los nerios en Dugium, Citania Xacobea
El origen del Camino de Santiago V: Los fenicios, su teología solar y ofiolatría
The Origin of the Path of Santiago V: The Phoenicians, Their Solar Theology and Opioiatry
El origen del Camino de Santiago VI: Los griegos en busca del Ara Solis y el Paraíso en Finisterre - 1ª parte
El origen del Camino de Santiago VII: Los griegos en busca del Ara Solis y el Paraíso en Finisterre - 2º parte final
El origen del Camino de Santiago VIII: Los romanos llegan al fin del mundo, alea iacta est!
El origen del Camino de Santiago IX: Ara-Solis: historias de héroes, traición, muerte y resurrección
El origen del Camino de Santiago X: La romanizacion del Camino de las Estrellas
El origen del Camino de Santiago XI: El laberinto mítico en torno al apóstol Santiago
El origen del Camino de Santiago XII: Las invasiones bárbaras y San Martiño, el apóstol de los suevos
Fascinating! Thank you for the facts. Here is a narrative from the local turismo and a picture of the castro foundations. There is also the El Rocio in Andalusia, and I learned last year that there is also a local Spring romeria honoring The Lady in Roncesvalles.The only place that I know of massive pagan pilgrimage in Galicia is Monte Facho in Cangas de Morrazo , near Vigo, in honour of god Berobreo. I also read some theories about this god was also venerated in Santo André de Teixido. Both places near the sea. Berobreo was a Galaic god not clear if indigenous or celtic.
And this from Wikipedia about Berobreo.Fascinating! Thank you for the facts. Here is a narrative from the local turismo and a picture of the castro foundations. There is also the El Rocio in Andalusia, and I learned last year that there is also a local Spring romeria honoring The Lady in Roncesvalles.
“O Facho Mount is located at an altitude of 184 metres, in Costa da Vela. It takes its name from the look-out post erected on its summit. The archaeological interventions established that the first human settlement goes back to the Bronze Age (9th century B.C.E.). A fort and pre-Roman sanctuary was built in the 4th century B.C.E., which remained intact until the 1st century B.C.E. and whose ruins are still preserved. In the 3rdand 4th centuries, a Galician-Roman sanctuary was erected in order to cater to the ancient beliefs. Later on, in the 17th century, a military lookout was built atop of the mount. Throughout the centuries, Monte do Facho was home to many different life expressions, and all of them are part of Galician history. In addition, the top of the mount boasts glorious panoramic views of the Cíes Islands, the cliffs, and the rías.”
Be sure to check out Pelegrin’s post about Monte Facho, Santo Andrè de Teixido, and Berobreo. If you google any of these names you will find more of what you are looking for. I am glad you asked this question, I have learned a lot with more to go.Wow! THANK YOU! This is an amazing beginning of a long search into the Pre-Christian origins, practices, and peoples of Galicia. I am very grateful.
I'm afraid that is impossible for me to do. I see the great value in these articles by Juan Satti in the fact that he has compiled so many relevant historical sources and that he has enumerated and described them in chronological order. This provides a much better idea of what people did and said or believed (or believed to be true for that matter) or wrote at a certain period of time than the usual contemporary narratives about the past. And it greatly helps to find and go back to the original source of some quote or other and to check it out for oneself.summary please
Not exactly. SdC didn't actually exist at all until after the inventio. That is the point some of us are trying to make with regard to the so-called pagan origins of the camino. Pagans didn't travel to Santiago for any reason, sacred or secular, because it wasn't there.The roads and paths that lead to SdC were traveled and established long before and for reasons unrelated to James or Christianity.
Well, quite likely there were some dirt tracks through fields at the location, and that formed the basis of the street layout and the original ways into town when it was first born. Those dirt tracks would have led towards the existing roads network, one way or another, much as dirt tracks today do as well.Not exactly. SdC didn't actually exist at all until after the inventio. That is the point some of us are trying to make with regard to the so-called pagan origins of the camino. Pagans didn't travel to Santiago for any reason, sacred or secular, because it wasn't there.
Here is an example of what I mean. Let's start with this: A BBC Travel online article, published in 2019, about The Camino de Santiago's ancient secret:[Juan Satti's compilation is better] than the usual contemporary narratives about the past. And it greatly helps to find and go back to the original source of some quote or other and to check it out for oneself.
The first part is easy.Now who is Galician historian Benito Vicetto and what did he actually have to say about this.
Thank you for this fascinating information! You explained already where this place is but since there is also a Monte Facho at Cabo Fisterra an additional look at the map may be helpful to keep them apart. At least it was helpful for me.The only place that I know of massive pagan pilgrimage in Galicia is Monte Facho in Cangas de Morrazo, near Vigo, in honour of god Berobreo.
This is a description of tourism, not pilgrimage.travellers began making their way to Cape Finisterre to see the site for themselves
And:The only place that I know of massive pagan pilgrimage in Galicia is Monte Facho in Cangas de Morrazo , near Vigo, in honour of god Berobreo
Os seus escavadores enmarcan Ventosiños no contexto atlántico europeo e vincúlano aos ringworks do SE de Inglaterra, datados entre o 1100 e o 800 cal BC) (Cano Pan et ao. 134, n. p. 4).
This is of course not about Finisterre, but it's not far away, easily traversed on foot.O carácter excepcional dos materiais localizados no interior levou a algúns autores para suxerir que os ringworks eran high status centers (McOmish 2011).
It gets very interesting.O arqueólogo Xurxo Ayán leva anos estudando a paisaxe arqueolóxica da súa parroquia, Cereixa, onde desde 2016 dirixe o proxecto do castro de San Lourenzo (Ayán 2021).
Todos os datos dispoñibles na actualidade, á espera do desenvolvemento de sondaxes e escavacións, fannos expor a posibilidade que este círculo de Vilarello correspóndase cun tipo de estruturas de carácter cultual que comezan a ser localizadas e estudadas en Galicia nos últimos anos. Estas rodas, rodelas, henges (máis propiamente cremos que se debería falar de ringworks, se atendemos aos paralelos británicos) presentan unha serie de características comúns: non se integran no imaxinario colectivo a través de lendas e referencias folclóricas, non son identificadas como estruturas doutro tempo polos paisanos, non se emprazan no alto de montes ou outeiros, senón en ladeira, en zonas intermedias próximas ás rupturas de pendente, presentan unha visibilidade directa sobre o terreo circundante, teñen sempre forma circular e un diámetro que oscila entre os 40 e 60 m (Gago Mariño 2021).
It's totally fascinating, and there's a lot now coming to light, eg.:o xacemento destas características que achega máis información é o de Ventosiños (Coeses, Lugo), escavado en área durante o transcurso das obras da autovía A-54 Lugo-Santiago entre 2011 e 2013 (Cano Pan et ao. 2015). O lugar, próximo ao veciño castro de Ventosiños, serviu claramente de espazo cerimonial durante a transición do Bronce Final ao Hierro I (séculos XI-IX cal. BC). Segundo os seus escavadores, o sitio seguiu sendo frecuentado ata o século IV a.C. (Cano Pan et ao. 2015: 130). A construción anular (máis recente) alcanza un diámetro interno de 40 m e de 60 m o externo e está rodeada por un foso. Ao norte esténdese un espazo delimitado por un enclós (máis antigo). Neste espazo localizáronse 32 fosas, moitas delas con material cerámico no seu interior correspondente na súa maioría a vasillas cilíndricas e bitroncocónicas. É reseñable tamén a aparición dun bo número de placas líticas perforadas (de lousa) e de elementos de orixe fenicio como unha fíbula tipo Huelva e unha conta de colar oculada de pasta vítrea.
Os seus escavadores enmarcan Ventosiños no contexto atlántico europeo e vincúlano aos ringworks do SE de Inglaterra, datados entre o 1100 e o 800 cal BC) (Cano Pan et ao. 134, n. p. 4). Defínense pola súa morfoloxía anular e pola presenza dun parapeto exterior e un foso. Os diámetros das devanditas estruturas oscilan entre os 40 m e os 120 m de diámetro. Os fosos alcanzan profundidades de ata 4 m e os parapetos elévanse en ocasións ata 3 m. Poden presentar máis dun van no parapeto. No interior aparecen compartimentaciones internas e numerosas fosas. O carácter excepcional dos materiais localizados no interior levou a algúns autores para suxerir que os ringworks eran high status centers (McOmish 2011).
Gosh, do we really want to start yet another discussion about what is a pilgrim and what is a pilgrimage in various people's various minds? In the context of THIS thread? And btw, this is a description in a 2019 online article on a BBC website. Wait and see whether it is even based on historically sound knowledge ... of course, you can do your own online research into this if you don't want to wait. It's easy to do. Look at context instead of picking out a single word or sentence for comment.This is a description of tourism, not pilgrimage.
No, it is a comment about what is said in that piece.Gosh, do we really want to start yet another discussion about what is a pilgrim and what is a pilgrimage
Oh mate. Please don't start a True Pagan debate.Yeah, this is all good, but were there any true pagan pilgrims?
Who knows? There probably aren't any, and how would we find out anyway? One of those links I posted above noted that there isn't integration of old sites into present-day folklore. They've been forgotten:I am still waiting for some definite link between pre-Christian pilgrimages and ritual journeys and the medieval pilgrimages to Santiago de Compostela. Similarities, yes; links, not yet.
presentan unha serie de características comúns: non se integran no imaxinario colectivo a través de lendas e referencias folclóricas
@VNwalking, when I read these lines, I had no idea just how much time it would take. It is very much like the narrative of Saint James in Spain. Every other century or so an author or two or more come along and add something to the narrative and expand and embellish it but what they contribute rests on a very flimsy or fictive basis that would not pass the criteria of our contemporary standards for scientific and documentary research. At the end of two thousand years of this, we have a vast narrative, partly contradicting itself, that usually gets condensed into a few appropriate, and seemingly convincing, lines for the guidebook or the Camino book or the blog.What he actually said takes more time... But it's in Tomo Segundo - beginning on page 5. At least that's what the index linked above says.
I got sidetracked ...The suspense is killing me!
If my recent DNA origin result counts for this matter : 87 % ( paleolitic+ neolitic), 1% Italian, 10% (UK, France, Germany) (celtic+germanic) , 2% Malta ( Italian, Greek, Phenician, North Africa).For him, and the one BBC article writer cited earlier, the multitudes apparently came from the Greek and Roman world to the distant shores of Galicia while, in contrast to this, I detect, among our contemporary output, a clear preference for multitudes from other pagan worlds, generally from the Celtic-Gallic-Neolithic-Megalithic world, all of them combined. It just fits better into the mysticism that is associated with Galicia I suppose.
If this is the English language article in your list, it doesn't seem to have been translated by the author of the article but rather by the author of the website on which it has been posted.with one article translated by him into English
Hi Jabba,This Ara Solis stuff sounds dubious :
https://concellofisterra.gal/turismo/info_lendas/en/45
Tells the tradition that romans found in that place an altar to the sun (Ara Solis) built by the phoenicians and which Apostle Santiago ordered to destroy a little later.
But suppose such an altar did exist -- where ?
Tha Ancients considered the Promontorium Artabrum to be the whole of that coastline, not the specific location where modern Finisterra is to be found -- either just the western coast, or also the northern coast.
And I cannot help but find the 19th Century origin of this story as being untrustworthy in principle, as many scholars of the period sought, quite erroneously, to find "pagan origins" in all manner of Christian traditions.
At best, one might suppose that there may have been a mariners' cult attached to some location near Finisterra, with some similarity to the mediaeval and modern maritime pilgrimages to Santiago ; but that's not "The Camino", which is primarily a foot pilgrimage route.
I don't really have the materials available to properly answer that question -- interwebs don't cut it, I'd need access to a decent University library -- but even so, that would be a serious research question answerable only with a fairly lengthy paper, longer than just a dissertation, and so unsuited to this place.Hi Jabba,
Any citations you can share of many 19th C scholars who sought for those origins in any manner of Christian traditions?
I am not an specialist but Gigurri and Seurri (Sarria) sound Preindoeuropean, similar to Euskera. According to this map I could be Baedyi, but I never heard this name before.One map I didn't post is this one, which shows various place names in Roman Galleica :
View attachment 141740
Note that some of the names are Celtic/Gaulish, others Roman, and some Greek -- also modern towns and modern names are provided for reference, towns with white circles such as Santiago de Compostela are not Roman era ones.
The source of the map is Alain Tranoy's book La Galice Romain. Without context (it is a recent publication and not accessible online) it is difficult to say what it is based on. To me, it looks like a visualisation of the compilation of names listed by ancient authors like Ptolemy and Pliny but it would take a bit of time and effort to find the exact spot in their work. They did not draw maps in those days so we can only try to put their words into such cartographic visualisations.According to this map I could be Baedyi, but I never heard this name before.
Thank you @Kathar1na. So the "St der Baedyi" was Betanzos and therefore the Baedyi were Celtic ( the Brigantini). Not sure that those people lived in my place (up in the hills).Note:
St. der Beadyi = Stamm der Baedyi, i.e. tribe of the Beadyi.
alle von Ptol. genannt = all mentioned by Ptolemy.
View attachment 141754
This is all your opinion, except the one citation from OED.I don't really have the materials available to properly answer that question -- interwebs don't cut it, I'd need access to a decent University library -- but even so, that would be a serious research question answerable only with a fairly lengthy paper, longer than just a dissertation, and so unsuited to this place.
And quite off-topic. Briefly though, IT-assisted scholarship since the 1990s has debunked many of the assumptions that were set in place concerning religions in the 19th and early to mid 20th Centuries, among them, as to the case in point, that Christian traditions were just transformed and repackaged pagan ones, which was predicated on some notion of oral traditions and written texts shifting and changing over the Centuries, which is now established not to have been the case at all.
There's also the problem that "pagan" has two different meanings -- the second one being "local, rustic" -- which led to some misleading confusions in the older scholarly work.
As OED puts it :
The explanation of L. pāgānus in the sense ‘non-Christian, heathen’, as arising out of that of ‘villager, rustic’, (supposedly indicating the fact that the ancient idolatry lingered on in the rural villages and hamlets after Christianity had been generally accepted in the towns and cities of the Roman Empire: see Trench Study of Words 102, and cf. Orosius i Præf. ‘Ex locorum agrestium compitis et pagis pagani vocantur’) has been shown to be chronologically and historically untenable, for this use of the word goes back to Tertullian c 202, when paganism was still the public and dominant religion, and even appears, according to Lanciani, in an epitaph of the 2nd cent.]
Christianity did adopt here and there some local pagan traditions, and to this day continues to use "pagan" in the sense of "local, rustic" for some local Christian cults and practices, traditional European village feast days for example, but the 19th Century notion that Christian Religion and its practices are in general transformed pagan ones is "historically untenable".
The practices and traditions of even the earliest Christianity were very different to those of the contemporary paganism. And I could go no further than that without getting completely off-topic, though I would hope that the pertinence of this to some so-called "pagan origins" of the Camino will be apparent.
I found new treasures.
As mentioned, I am not so much interested in finding "proof" for or against a pre-Christian or non-Christian Camino or pilgrimage to the Santiago area in Galicia before the year 1100 or so as I am interested in understanding how the contemporary narratives of such a Camino developed, where it all comes from. Because there are today obviously such narratives. Of course I have a personal opinion about the "whether or not" but personal opinions are largely irrelevant.
Much of these narratives, both now and in the more recent past of the last 200 years or so, are focused on Cape Finisterre and on general social and religious contexts for the larger area in northwest Spain throughout hundreds if not thousands of centuries. So here we go:
This is a thesaurus of historical geographical names in Spain - a database maintained by the Spanish Ministry for Culture. Ara solis is not in it but it contains the various ancient names for (presumably) Cape Finisterre including the relevant ancient sources. And in particular: A specific settlement known in Roman times that is listed under the name Assegonia as one of the many stopovers on the Roman Road XIX of the Itinerario de Antonino and under the name of Aseconia as a stopover on the Itinerario de Astorga II (with details for both names so that you can find check them out in the initial sources). Quote: Although Assegonia is traditionally related to Santiago de Compostela (it must have been fairly close to where the Cathedral now stands) there is no absolute certainty, but the place denotes an important communications hub in this area of the northwest peninsular.
This website contains, among other stuff, links to Greek and Latin Texts - 61 complete works or authors from Antiquity (some of them bilingual with English translation). Florus, Pliny, Ptolomy, Strabo, Tacitus - they and their major texts are all there and accessible to all of us here.LacusCurtius • A Gateway to Ancient Rome
Major site on ancient Rome: 6000+ pages, 130 maps/plans, 1200+ images of Roman monuments; texts of Pliny, Dio, Polybius, Appian, Vitruvius, Diodorus…penelope.uchicago.edu
A fully fledged Springer International Publishing edition that has been put online in digital form by a national academic library and is accessible free of charge !!! This deals with various aspects of Heritage, Pilgrimage and the Camino to Finisterre. 222 pages in English and published in 2015. Although the focus is not on ancient history and I've only just glanced through it I am confident that I am going to find one or the other pearl.
I believe there are subtle and sometimes not so subtle links between pre-Roman practices and Christianity, if you are prepared to see them. I believe there are still Pagan influences on many of the Churches and architecture that are still visible, but fading and sometimes they've been purposely removed as the religious practices appear move forward across time and culture. Just my opinion. But it's an opinion held by others too. The Way of the Wild Goose was an interesting read by the author of the Moon Guide to the Camino de Santiago. Beebee Bahrami is a cultural anthropologist who has been writing about this area for years. I saw many people physically carrying her Moon Guide in September on the Camino Frances.Were there pre-Christian pilgrimages? Absolutely: pilgrimage, in the sense of a visit or journey to a religious site, is still an important part of all the major world religions and many pre-date Christianity. So were there pre-Christian pilgrimages? Yes. To Santiago de Compostela? Almost certainly not since it wasn't a sacred site until Christianity made it one in the ninth century. As for any link between pre-Roman religious practices and post Classical Christianity, I think that is unlikely. That doesn't mean Celto-Iberian culture isn't a fascinating area of study, just don't expect any blinding insights into the Camino de Santiago.
Like Iago, you may be a son of thunder.I believe there are subtle and sometimes not so subtle links between pre-Roman practices and Christianity, if you are prepared to see them. I believe there are still Pagan influences on many of the Churches and architecture that are still visible, but fading and sometimes they've been purposely removed as the religious practices appear move forward across time and culture. Just my opinion. But it's an opinion held by others too. The Way of the Wild Goose was an interesting read by the author of the Moon Guide to the Camino de Santiago. Beebee Bahrami is a cultural anthropologist who has been writing about this area for years. I saw many people physically carrying her Moon Guide in September on the Camino Frances.
I carried both books and other guides with me in the kindle app on my phone... no extra weight. Although, I only opened them a couple of times in 37 days. I did my reading before the Camino and then walked. I may go back on my own "goose" chase of some sort one day. Although I do not identify as a "moon-bather," it was a rewarding experience to kick up our pace and make it to Finisterre for the sunset and the full-moon rising in October, right before the rains of the remnants of Hurricane Ian reached La Costa Morte. I've been noticing many links, coincidences, and synchronicities lately in my life. I think I could come up with my own cult. But I don't believe anyone would join. While my son was riding the "Ian" storm out in our home in Florida, we had our only two days of rain on the entire Camino Frances. Up and over O'Cebreiro and the next day on through Samos to Sarria from Tricastela, we slipped and slid, walking in the Rain and rivers of cow #$$%^. I will admit that I am a self-identified hurricane-bather, two typhoons in Okinawa and several hurricanes here in Florida. I just haven't found a mystical hurricane believing tribe to join yet. There are some parallels to the Camino. After quite a bit of work, you can come together and cook up a feast, and enjoy each other's company, at least until the lights go out.
Us pagans have a lot to live up to....Something I've posted before. Probably my all-time favourite Facebook post. From the American Pilgrims on the Camino Facebook group several years ago. The writer then went on to explain that he knew this to be fact because his late wife had been part of that group in one of her 70+ previous incarnations. Despite polite suggestions from other group members he never amended the post so it may not be the typo that most of us assumed at the time...
View attachment 141430
www.megalithicportal.com is a brilliant site for finding ancient sites - from holy wells to stone circles - all over the world. If you enjoy suchlike - you can add sites and photos too!I appreciated the various dolmens and caves I encountered in September 2022 along the del Norte. Is there any data on neolithic or mesolithic areas along the Primitivo as I am hoping to walk this caminio sometime this year...
Oh dear - that could be a typo or Freudian slip too - Us pagans or US pagans...!! Sorry y'all....Us pagans have a lot to live up to....
No it isn't. But let's not derail the topic.This is all your opinion, except the one citation from OED.
I had a closer look at Chapter 3 of this Springer Publishing book.Heritage, Pilgrimage and the Camino to Finisterre. 222 pages in English and published in 2015. Although the focus is not on ancient history and I've only just glanced through it I am confident that I am going to find one or the other pearl.
page 84 of 222:without further context, two quotes from this chapter
Highly unlikely, given that the Meseta as such did not exist -- forested wilderness existed there instead.Homo Neanderthalis was probably dodging Mastodons on the Meseta.
I have some issues with the term "Pagan", it is a negative, pejorative connotation from a purely Christian point of view, traditionally often used as a snooty insult.The origins of the Camino de Santiago are wholly Christian.
That some of the routes followed pre-date the Camino and may have been used by pre-Christians is fairly well established. Roman Mithraism invited “pilgrimage” to sacred sites including Finis Terre and there is evidence that Neolithic and early Bronze Age “pilgrims” brought the remains of their dead for inhumation in Galicia from as far as the Danube Delta. In my own traditions is the belief that the soul would migrate to the far-west and the sundering sea.
A search for “Pagan” in thread titles using the forum facility will lead you to some interesting discussion. Very few fact
I am not a native speaker of English and I can't tell what people associate with the word pagan or heathen for that matter. I was intrigued to learn today that the first known use of the word pagan appeared in the English language quite late - 15th or 16th century. This made me curious and I had a search in online King James bibles. No pagan appeared in a search of older versions but plenty of heathen, and in newer versions this is replaced by the word Gentiles.the term "Pagan"
That may be so, @Tincatinker, but as an agnostic, I take offense to being called a pagan.@pepi, words get used in ways that change their meaning and context over time. Pagan, in its Latin root, just meant one who dwelt in the countryside as opposed to those who dwelt in cities. Paganus / Urbanus. Possibly, later, used in a pejorative sense by those sophisticated urbanites who, even then, had forgotten where their food came from.
The OED has “a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main or recognized religions.” as a definition for pagan but that is a later interpretation in my view. I call myself a pagan because my belief systems do not concur with the monotheistic constructions. I’ve been described as anything from Animist to Heathen including “nutter” none of which matters a jot to me. As a child I was called a “Ditch Pig” I’m happy to “own” that one.
“Nochri”? I could offer atheist, un-believer, infidel. Eventually, I think, we’ll all just have to accept that belief is just that, faith is something we can have and our roads are how we get there
Hi. I found this book fascinating, The Hidden Camino by Louise Sommer. Here's an Amazon link...Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.
Thanks so much and Buen Camino!
14th Century -- OED has a 1375 example.I was intrigued to learn today that the first known use of the word pagan appeared in the English language quite late - 15th or 16th century.
That's because the King James Bible was a translation: in some sections, a translation from texts that were in themselves translations of translations. Later bible translators have had access to earlier sources. According to Wikipedia (and they do give references and links for those assiduous enough to check):I was intrigued to learn today that the first known use of the word pagan appeared in the English language quite late - 15th or 16th century. This made me curious and I had a search in online King James bibles. No pagan appeared in a search of older versions but plenty of heathen, and in newer versions this is replaced by the word Gentiles.
Not necessarily pejorative, like many once derogatory terms it has been 'reclaimed' by people who happily apply it to themselves. It is also used more neutrally nowadays to describe pretty well any non-mainstream belief system, particularly if it has mystic or animistic or traditional roots or connections. Words change their connotations as social attitudes change.I have some issues with the term "Pagan", it is a negative, pejorative connotation from a purely Christian point of view, traditionally often used as a snooty insult.
Jews for example, use the term "nochri" (נכרי) which does not carry the same negative connotations as the English word "pagan" Rather, it simply refers to those who are not part of the Jewish community or who do not share the same religious beliefs as Jews.
I wished that there would be an alternative, neutral term to describe any number of religious traditions that do not fall under the umbrella of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), as well.
In lack of such a neutral term, I yield to accept the word "pagan" as a simplification referring to any belief system that does not recognize the Abrahamic God or adhere to their religious texts.
Nevertheless and in the consciousness of its roots, why not avoid the word, when other terms may just as easily be used, for example in the title of this thread, like "Non-Christian origins of the Camino"?
Or am I overly woke?
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