- Time of past OR future Camino
- To Santiago + back
2400 km + 950 nmi
160 days
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "Camino". We certainly know that human habitation in Spain goes back a very long time indeed. So the land was there and there were people there. Does that make a Camino? Of that I'm not so sure. I doubt very much that your Homo Neanderthalis dodging Mastodons was walking from the Pyrenees to the coast (or the spot some 90 km inland where Santiago is now to be found). He or she probably never left the Meseta. Would one thus say he was on the Camino?I have no doubt the Camino pre-dates Christianity by a considerable time. Homo Neanderthalis was probably dodging Mastodons on the Meseta.
On it, but not of it perhaps? And by the time they got to Atapuerca it had been a long walk (and a lot of personal development) since they left AfricaWould one thus say he was on the Camino?
I don't know. For me just being on the Meseta where the Camino would one day be doesn't put them on the Camino any more than being on the piece of land in the middle of Spain where Madrid would one day in the future be wouldn't put someone in Madrid.On it, but not of it perhaps? And by the time they got to Atapuerca it had been a long walk (and a lot of personal development) since they left Africa
Depends on whether you believe in ghostsI don't know. For me just being on the Meseta where the Camino would one day be doesn't put them on the Camino any more than being on the piece of land in the middle of Spain where Madrid would one day in the future be wouldn't put someone in Madrid.
Samten,Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.
Thanks so much and Buen Camino!
Just text to 666. All responses can be disregarded as mythical at bestWhere's the Spanish Inquisition now that we really need them? You never know when you need an Inquisitor. Is there a phone number we can call when we meet an unrepentant pagan pilgrim?
And "pagar" would be to walk from village to village, especially when done with a tour operator.I learnt in this thread that pagan comes from paganus the one who lives in a pagus ( a village, an area ). In Spanish the word " pago" is payment, but another meaning is the same as latin pagus. This meaning is today referred almost only to "vino de pago", that is an special denomination of high quality wines that only twenty wineries in Spain have. Some people in Spain think that a "vino de pago" is an "expensive wine" ( payment) because they don't know the second meaning.
And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.
The Spanish Inquisition mostly persecuted people they suspected as secretly being Jews or Muslims after the forced conversions. Other heretics, I believe, were a distant third place.And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.
The last "auto de fe" against witches was in 1610 in Zugarramurdi (Navarra). The famous Salem (Massachusetts) trial was in 1692.And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.
Yes, I remember that we discussed this some time ago. Really interesting. I think that whole protocols of interviewing "witnesses" such as servants or maids in the households of people who had voluntarily or under coercion converted from the Jewish faith to the Christian faith have been preserved.Jews, Food, and Spain by Hélène Jawhara Piñer. One of the main sources of our knowledge of medieval Sephardic food practices is records of the Inquisition when people were accused of secretly being Jewish based on the foods they prepared and ate.
I have no idea. I read that Spanish Inquisition had jurisdiction only over Christians. Therefore, only those who self-identified as Christians could be investigated and trialed by it. And also, that the King of Spain ordered that that the inquisitors should never proceed against the Indians (in the Spanish colonies) - at the time the only "pagans" in the Spanish empire.The Spanish Inquisition mostly persecuted people they suspected as secretly being Jews or Muslims after the forced conversions. Other heretics, I believe, were a distant third place.
Thanks for yours words, but the articles are 16 and the others more complet the history of finisterre and not in these serial. Searching!I got sidetracked ....
In any case, if I have not yet made it clear enough: I am less interested in what they would call "original research" or "own research" on Wikipedia which is not allowed there, at least in principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
What I am interested in are the actual historical sources, over centuries, that contain claims about anything that could be classified as a pilgrimage of some sort to the region around today's Santiago and how these authors contributed to the narratives that we hear today and that are often presented as facts while they are largely based on fiction when you actually look at the sources. I find that quite fascinating for more than one reason.
From this point of view, Juan Satti's twelve articles are a real treasure trove because he has compiled so many details about these sources, what they say in the original version and in a Spanish translation and in particular, unlike so many other contemporary articles, books and websites, he provides sufficient information (authors, titles of their books, etc) that makes it possible to find and access such sources directly. And with the World Wide Web being the marvellous tool that it is, these sources are now accessible to all of us who have an interest in this topic!
That last sentence reverberates with me as it forms one of the roots of my poetry in the thread Poems for Seekers.I saw this thread going sideways as soon as it was posted. I hope Tinca can bring back some sense and order to it.
Are we discussing "pagans" or are we researching "pre-historic" migrations?
There were immigration trails worldwide since creation and these immigrants/pilgrims followed certain stars or a constellation in the galaxy of stars to what they thought might be the end of the world. It always seems to be westward for some reason, perhaps to follow the sun? The Native Americans, the Basque, the Celts were all the same.
No one is going to reveal much because there is nothing to be revealed.,
Other than perhaps ancient mankind was seeking away to find a way back to the planet that deposited us here in the first place?
I guess that is a reaction to my comment: a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further readingThanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.
@Gerard Griffin I would like to say this: literally? - hmm! How can we cope with that on a 'flat' forum? I am unfamiliar with a lot of nuances. Something I learned in a real space many many years ago was that humour isThanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.
Take it easy today. I will.Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.
Re-reading: pagan motives for Camino. What do you actually mean? The word camino means way, path.Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.
Sorry, I´m Juan G, Satti and I saw yesterday this forum. I´m so glad for your interest in my articles.I guess that is a reaction to my comment: a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading?
A comment which I see I ended with my poker face icon.
Let me start with a big. I love Monty Python, I enjoy funny remarks, whether absurdly witty, or erudite witty, or silly witty, or a clever pun, or just a good joke. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" is of course such an old joke that it has already gotten a long beard. Posted to death one might be tempted to say. I thought it was funny to turn it into an opportunity for a bit of further education. Anyway, what I don't enjoy so much are funny joke remarks (i.e. funny in the mind of the writer) that are plastered indiscriminately just anywhere in any thread where there is an empty space to be filled with typing and a "post reply" button to press. I cannot say whether I am the only forum member with such a reaction, there may be one or two others.
This is an old thread that has been dormant for more than half a year and I don't know why it surfaced yesterday nor do I quite understand content and purpose of yesterday's comment by @juanxxiii. He is apparently a new member, so welcome to the forum.
It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion
And I, a self-identifying pagan from generations in recollection of self-identifying pagan, with firm belief in our collection of old Gods and old ways - I sometimes get seriously pissed off that every aethiestic, agnostic and “can’t be arsed” gets classed as a pagan. Or worse still tries to wear our Tshirt.
Problem with this is, then we're discussing religion rather than History ...This brings up the obvious next stage of a camino discussion, who are the real pagans. ; )
It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine, ACTUALLY . But the "pagan" origin `cause other pilgrims walked first and marked the path. Like the Romans made the viarium , our streets of today. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.
Humanity history include the religions- The problem is believe that Truly religion is chistianism and the others RELIGIONS are "myths"Problem with this is, then we're discussing religion rather than History ...
There was no such place as Santiago de Compostela in pagan times.It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine, ACTUALLY . But the "pagan" origin `cause other pilgrims walked first and marked the path. Like the Romans made the viarium , our streets of today. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.
I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion
sorry i´m in europe: is PM ;DImmensely interesting to talk about Juan but take into consideration that one of the forumrules is that you cannot get too deep into discussing religion here.
It will end that people get into a tantrum and throw their toys out of the pram, start crying or get into endless discussions about the origins of the Christmas tree or the Transubstantiation.
Better to make some conversations through pm.
sorry i´m in europe: is PM ;D
exactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre, end to road, The catholic way is a fake completely anachronistic: you're rightThere was no such place as Santiago de Compostela in pagan times.
It did not exist, therefore there was no "pagan" "pilgrimage" to that place.
The entire notion is completely anachronistic.
No it isn't.exactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre
Exactly.But I cannot find evidences that there was a pagan pilgrimage before the Camino de Santiago. However the current pilgrimage has begun not before the VIIIe century: if some other pilgrimage has existed there, the History should have kept memory of it. Perhaps there was an ancient cult of stones in Muxia, but it was local.
I think that St James Way has begun for political reason: against the Moors and in order for Compostela to take precedence on Tolede church (which was the main church in Wisigothic Spain)
The way to St James from Pyrenees (Camino Frances) follow a previous roman way, the via Trajana, but it was an economical itinerary, not a religious one.
The true pilgrimage is to where? How can the pilgrimage to the bones of Santiago be to Finisterre? The bones of Santiago do not rest at Finisterre. They never have and they likely never will. @juanxxiii i think you are trying to cross hobble two traditions as if they were ever or ever could be one.Iexactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre, end to road, The catholic way is a fake completely anachronistic: you're right(read my explications in my articles. santiago is a city without beach, and the pilgrims' shell????
Have a good day
Be very careful with "facts" provided by local turismos. They propagate the most spectacular moonshine imaginable.Fascinating! Thank you for the facts. Here is a narrative from the local turismo and a picture of the castro foundations. There is also the El Rocio in Andalusia, and I learned last year that there is also a local Spring romeria honoring The Lady in Roncesvalles.
“O Facho Mount is located at an altitude of 184 metres, in Costa da Vela. It takes its name from the look-out post erected on its summit. The archaeological interventions established that the first human settlement goes back to the Bronze Age (9th century B.C.E.). A fort and pre-Roman sanctuary was built in the 4th century B.C.E., which remained intact until the 1st century B.C.E. and whose ruins are still preserved. In the 3rdand 4th centuries, a Galician-Roman sanctuary was erected in order to cater to the ancient beliefs. Later on, in the 17th century, a military lookout was built atop of the mount. Throughout the centuries, Monte do Facho was home to many different life expressions, and all of them are part of Galician history. In addition, the top of the mount boasts glorious panoramic views of the Cíes Islands, the cliffs, and the rías.”
I am a pagan pilgrim! and I knows what I is and what I believes.... (yes - I is from Devon...)Debating the meaning of 'pagan'! Makes a very pleasant change from debating the meaning of 'pilgrim'.
I agree, some of it is quite amusing.I am a pagan pilgrim! and I knows what I is and what I believes.... (yes - I is from Devon...) But tis fun to read all the debating.....
Now that is definitely a topic for another thread. Maybe the Mods will oblige.How about the Christian origin of the Ways of Saint James, Saint Peter, and Saint Mary at Lourdes and Fátima ?
And countless other pilgrimage destinations throughout Europe ?
Do not forget than long before christianism, judaism has lead believers to Jerusalem: there was a single Temple for jews, and it was in Jerusalem. Several times a year, practicing jews were going to Jerusalem (most probably walking) for religious festivals.What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from?
The original pilgrimage to Jerusalem was clearly Jewish, and as to "Faith is all you need", it is a late 20th - early 21st Century notion of pilgrimage anachronistic with Antiquity.What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem?
Are you testing us and our knowledgeWhat occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem?
I’ve never, consciously, tried to shove my beliefs in anywhere. I think I fairly firmly stated around about #2 in this very enjoyable thread that there is absolutely no argument, let alone evidence, for any pre-christian or any archaic pilgrimage to Santiago. There’s no, or at least very little, evidence of any pre-christian or archaic pilgrimage to Fisterra, Muxia, Roman Finis Terre or anywhere else on this poor benighted planet.The original pilgrimage to Jerusalem was clearly Jewish, and as to "Faith is all you need", it is a late 20th - early 21st Century notion of pilgrimage anachronistic with Antiquity.
Regardless, Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem 2,500 + years ago were by by definition not "pagan". I'm quite dubious of this modern trend of shoving "paganism" into everything, including especially where it does not belong.
I have not claimed you were doing so, I talked in an impersonal manner of a "modern trend" by some third parties -- just clarifying, if that helps.I’ve never, consciously, tried to shove my beliefs in anywhere.
there is absolutely no argument, let alone evidence, for any pre-christian or any archaic pilgrimage to Santiago. There’s no, or at least very little, evidence of any pre-christian or archaic pilgrimage to Fisterra, Muxia, Roman Finis Terre or anywhere else on this poor benighted planet.
Now I'm genuinely confused.And petulant rejection of the topic gets us no further than “nothing to see here, move along, move along”.
Yes.But, surely, a deep dive into the origins of pilgrimage and, perhaps, our perceptions of pilgrimage is worthwhile.
Greetings Samten! I am a witch and my co-podcaster and I have been researching the pagan/preChristian/native practices the preceded the Christian Camino. My copodcaster is a researcher and a professor. I am a high school English teacher with a masters degree is Spiritual Psychology. We both have been practicing witches for decades so we bring different experiences to the table both personally as well as professionally. We have been researching this for about a year now and are starting to organize the information. We would love to share this information with you!Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.
Thanks so much and Buen Camino!
Please share!Hello
Greetings Samten! I am a witch and my co-podcaster and I have been researching the pagan/preChristian/native practices the preceded the Christian Camino. My copodcaster is a researcher and a professor. I am a high school English teacher with a masters degree is Spiritual Psychology. We both have been practicing witches for decades so we bring different experiences to the table both personally as well as professionally. We have been researching this for about a year now and are starting to organize the information. We would love to share this information with you!
Worth putting Cruz Ferro into the forum search engine for some good discussion down the days. The Hermes, Mercury attribution has had a fairly good thrashing, as has the suggestion it was Galician peasants on their way to the Meseta for the grain harvest. There are no comfirmative historical records yet discovered but there is lots of “it is said”.Having only scanned the comments I'm not sure if anyone brought up the "pre-christian" origin of Cruz de Ferro yet? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read in a few places that the tradition dates back to travelers tossing a stone at what may have been just a cairn to a shrine to Hermes. This was done for safe travel, being he was the god of such. Anyone have anymore pieces of this origin story? Thanks in advance!
Fair enough! Thanks Tincattinker! (Heading there now!)Worth putting Cruz Ferro into the forum search engine for some good discussion down the days. The Hermes, Mercury attribution has had a fairly good thrashing, as has the suggestion it was Galician peasants on their way to the Meseta for the grain harvest. There are no comfirmative historical records yet discovered but there is lots of “it is said”.
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