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I think - not certain - you can still get indulgences for a person who has died but not for a living person.
The Compostela has nothing to do with indulgences.
Another way of getting out of an obligation to go on pilgrimage was possible during a certain period in the Middle Ages when secular or clerical courts ordered a pilgrimage as a form of punishment. In this case, however, one could often pay a fine to the court or the church instead of actually going. I don't recall having ever read that one could use a proxy instead.
I'm not an expert of current Catholic teaching on indulgences. I checked a few internet sources that were easily accessible and looked reliable and they all said the same: for yourself or a deceased person but not another living person.You can seek an Indulgence for a living person -- typically, the sponsored pilgrimages are financed by those unable to make the walk themselves.
I thought of mentioning that in my earlier long exposé but then decided against it as it has nothing whatsoever to do with proxy pilgrimage. I dislike the association that is often evoked between these contemporary programs and medieval practices. The contemporary programs are programs for social reintegration. They do not replace punishment or incarceration for a crime.even today there is a Dutch youth delinquency reformation programme whereby young delinquents can have civil sanctions on them lifted by accomplishing the Camino on foot.
I'm not an expert of current Catholic teaching on indulgences. I checked a few internet sources that were easily accessible and looked reliable and they all said the same: for yourself or a deceased person but not another living person.
I dislike the association that is often evoked between these contemporary programs and medieval practices. The contemporary programs are programs for social reintegration. They do not replace punishment or incarceration for a crime
Copy-paste this exact text sequence "carlos gil" rent a pilgrim into Google and you get articles from 2006 and 2017 about Carlos Gil who has styled himself as a "payer-off of promises". His fee is about 2,500 € for a trip from Lisbon to Fatima which is some 100 miles/150 km. He also does Santiago. You have to take Carlos' word for it that it is all true. He had a website but it appears to be out of commission or has been moved to another provider.A few years ago, there was a flurry of articles about a Portuguese man who walks for a considerable payment to Santiago. However pays him, sees meaning in it ("Pray for me in Santiago"?) but I don't think this kind of proxy pilgrimage aligns with current views of the Catholic Church.
There must be a Go Fund Me opportunity there...Camino and have other people pay me loads of money to do so.
I think that any comparison between motives of today and earlier times leads us astray.
One huge difference is that medieval pilgrims were primarily concerned about their wellbeing after death while contemporary pilgrims are primarily concerned about their wellbeing in the here and now.
It's not amateur psychoanalysis, it's based on what I have learnt. But I will leave it at that as the question is about whether people today "fund a hiker of El Camino in exchange for their mental/spiritual weight being lifted" and not about the mindset and worldview of the people in medieval Europe.That is to say that I think Mediaeval pilgrims had a very similar combination of concerns about their well-being in the afterlife as well as in the here and now as pilgrims can have today -- and that it's a non-starter to try and psychoanalyse people who have been dead for centuries in comparison to those who are alive today.
An important date to be sure. Perhaps you could expand a bit on the relevance to this particular discussion because I must confess that I'm missing the connection.Luther's 95 Thesis c1517. Formation of Protestantism.
I'm not going to try and reiterate the excellent discussion above about the possibility of getting a Compostela or an Indulgence for someone else, either living or deceased. But I think there is another possibility that may come into play and may still be valid in current Catholic thinking. I am not Catholic myself, so I will ask anyone more knowledgeable than I to step in and correct me if I get any of this wrong.
It seems to me that one of the things behind any visit to s saint's shrine, whether made official through a certificate or special offer of indulgence or not, is the opportunity to, through prayer, request the intercession of the saint in heaven. The idea that I've heard (and may be wrong about) is that saints are currently in heaven and have more access or influence with the Almighty than us poor sinners here on Earth. Through asking them to intercede for us, we put that power behind our prayers. And while, theoretically, one can pray to a saint from anywhere, praying from a place particularly associated with the saint is more efficacious.
If I have correctly stated the theology, and it is still accepted by the Church as correct, I'm not seeing anything that would prevent someone from, when kneeling before the relics of St. James in the crypt in the Cathedral of Santiago, requesting St. James intercede in a particular way on behalf of some poor sinner, still alive, and back home. Such am intercession would have more power than the prayer of the sinner alone. And surely it would not be against Church doctrine for someone to assist the person in getting to Santiago to Compostela to request the intercession.
Just another idea to throw into the mix of this discussion on walking on behalf of other sinners.
One of the first books about a modern pilgrimage on foot from France to Compostela was published in 1978. It was translated into Galician, Castellano, Dutch and German and had a big impact on the development of the contemporary pilgrimage as we know it today. The title: Priez pour nous à Compostelle - Pray for us in Compostela.Just another idea to throw into the mix of this discussion on walking on behalf of other sinners.
One of the first books about a modern pilgrimage on foot from France to Compostela was published in 1978. It was translated into Galician, Castellano, Dutch and German and had a big impact on the development of the contemporary pilgrimage as we know it today. The title: Priez pour nous à Compostelle - Pray for us in Compostela.
It is still my understanding that the violation of these forum rules happens when the discussion gets personal or comments are interpreted as an attack on the beliefs or non-beliefs of others.Wiki "In the first few theses Luther develops the idea of repentance as the Christian's inner struggle with sin rather than the external system of sacramental confession. "
And I think I am dangerously close to violating Forum rules on religious discussion--so will stick to just the historical.
An interesting concept for the modern day. I’m currently reading Sinning Accross Spain by Ailsa Piper
Sinning Across Spain is the story of Ailsa Piper's 1300 kilometre walk from the southern city of Granada to Galicia, "the bathtub of Spain", in the far northwest, carrying an unusual cargo. Aside from 10 kilograms of practicalities, she also lugged a load of sins in her swag.
In the tradition of medieval believers, or scammers, who paid others to carry their sins to holy places, and so buy forgiveness, Ailsa asked her colleagues and friends to donate a sin. She then shouldered them across country, being taunted and tempted by them along the way, and trying to discover the mysteries of faith. What is faith? Did she have it? Could she get it? Would she know it if she saw it?
Sinning across Spain celebrates the call of the road, the possibilities for connection, and the simple act of putting one foot down – and then the other, and repeat – for more than a thousand kilometres of dusty road.
Really enjoyed her book, also "The Attachment"An interesting concept for the modern day. I’m currently reading Sinning Accross Spain by Ailsa Piper
Sinning Across Spain is the story of Ailsa Piper's 1300 kilometre walk from the southern city of Granada to Galicia, "the bathtub of Spain", in the far northwest, carrying an unusual cargo. Aside from 10 kilograms of practicalities, she also lugged a load of sins in her swag.
In the tradition of medieval believers, or scammers, who paid others to carry their sins to holy places, and so buy forgiveness, Ailsa asked her colleagues and friends to donate a sin. She then shouldered them across country, being taunted and tempted by them along the way, and trying to discover the mysteries of faith. What is faith? Did she have it? Could she get it? Would she know it if she saw it?
Sinning across Spain celebrates the call of the road, the possibilities for connection, and the simple act of putting one foot down – and then the other, and repeat – for more than a thousand kilometres of dusty road.
I am a Protestant and a repeat pilgrim to Santiago de Compostela. Oddly, I think that my view of praying for sinners may be closer to what the OP is discussing than what is presented here by pilgrims of other traditions. I know that my choice of repeated pilgrimages is a selfish choice on my part. But I wish to share any spiritual benefit for the journey with others, some of whom would not make it or have never heard of it. I carry stones for special friends, pray for them, and lay down their burdens, in intention at least, at the Cruz de Ferro. But I also feel called to pray for persons whom I know, or know of, who seem to have chosen a way contrary to the way of faith or to any decent human life. I do not do this for money, or for any other personal gain, but as an acknowledgement that people who have turned towards a totally selfish and sinful life need spiritual help. I cannot become the person whom I was created to be through my own strength and wisdom. Nor can persons who have chosen evil ways. So I ask for help for them as well as for myself, when I am on pilgrimage.
This post is intended to reply to the original post, but if it is too religious for the forum, I am content that it should be deleted.
It is still my understanding that the violation of these forum rules happens when the discussion gets personal or comments are interpreted as an attack on the beliefs or non-beliefs of others.
I find it beneficial to learn about the religious beliefs of other faiths. For example, we've all probably learnt at school that you could buy indulgences once and now you can't anymore. That was the extent of my knowledge about partial and plenary indulgences. I probably learnt only through this forum and assorted links that plenary indulgences are alive and well, so to speak.
Which brings me to a question in view of the Jacobean Jubilee Year 2021. When exactly can you get a plenary indulgence in the Cathedral of Santiago? Not the conditions for it, just the date(s). I think it is every day of 2021, as it was every day of 2016 but 2016 was not specific to Santiago; that was a global option.
So let me rephrase: When is it possible to obtain a plenary indulgence specifically and only in Santiago?
If I may end with a bit of humour to make a connection to the original question: After all, we don't want a paid proxy carry someone else's sins to Santiago in vain.
It is still my understanding that the violation of these forum rules happens when the discussion gets personal or comments are interpreted as an attack on the beliefs or non-beliefs of others.
Thank you for this comprehensive post, @t2andreo. I’ve bookmarked it. I suppose this topic may come up more often with the approach of the year 2021 and its good to have such clarification. It’s a serious topic for those concerned."Neither the Grace of the [Plenary Indulgence] nor the pilgrimage are linked, in themselves, to the Compostela. The [Plenary Indulgence] can be won by traveling by any means and it is possible to receive the Compostela without winning the [Plenary Indulgence]."
An interesting concept for the modern day. I’m currently reading Sinning Accross Spain by Ailsa Piper
Sinning Across Spain is the story of Ailsa Piper's 1300 kilometre walk from the southern city of Granada to Galicia, "the bathtub of Spain", in the far northwest, carrying an unusual cargo. Aside from 10 kilograms of practicalities, she also lugged a load of sins in her swag.
In the tradition of medieval believers, or scammers, who paid others to carry their sins to holy places, and so buy forgiveness, Ailsa asked her colleagues and friends to donate a sin. She then shouldered them across country, being taunted and tempted by them along the way, and trying to discover the mysteries of faith. What is faith? Did she have it? Could she get it? Would she know it if she saw it?
Sinning across Spain celebrates the call of the road, the possibilities for connection, and the simple act of putting one foot down – and then the other, and repeat – for more than a thousand kilometres of dusty road.
Totally right, David, and in fact we practicing Catholic pilgrims will typically spend as long as we dare (with that queue waiting behind us…) in front of the relics of Santiago, praying for MANY special intentions, and special people, whom we carried with us on the Camino (and for whom we prayed every day, all along the Way). It is "technically" not the same as the indulgence (which means freeing ourselves, or the deceased person, from the otherworldly penance that they must fulfil, before final salvation, for the sins they committed in this world), but we believe it is a very special, powerful prayer.I'm not going to try and reiterate the excellent discussion above about the possibility of getting a Compostela or an Indulgence for someone else, either living or deceased. But I think there is another possibility that may come into play and may still be valid in current Catholic thinking. I am not Catholic myself, so I will ask anyone more knowledgeable than I to step in and correct me if I get any of this wrong.
It seems to me that one of the things behind any visit to s saint's shrine, whether made official through a certificate or special offer of indulgence or not, is the opportunity to, through prayer, request the intercession of the saint in heaven. The idea that I've heard (and may be wrong about) is that saints are currently in heaven and have more access or influence with the Almighty than us poor sinners here on Earth. Through asking them to intercede for us, we put that power behind our prayers. And while, theoretically, one can pray to a saint from anywhere, praying from a place particularly associated with the saint is more efficacious.
If I have correctly stated the theology, and it is still accepted by the Church as correct, I'm not seeing anything that would prevent someone from, when kneeling before the relics of St. James in the crypt in the Cathedral of Santiago, requesting St. James intercede in a particular way on behalf of some poor sinner, still alive, and back home. Such am intercession would have more power than the prayer of the sinner alone. And surely it would not be against Church doctrine for someone to assist the person in getting to Santiago to Compostela to request the intercession.
Just another idea to throw into the mix of this discussion on walking on behalf of other sinners.
The penalty of having to be perfected in Purgatory, even for forgiven sins, is wiped away.
From the moment we complete all the required activities, the Church teaches that we are perfected again and prompted for immediate entry to Heaven on our death.
Gosh, David, kudos! That is the best definition of discussion versus argument that I have ever heard in my life. Is it your own, or did you get it from somewhere?Agree - but all forums seem to have the same rules to stop arguments - this, I find, is because many people don't understand the difference between and argument - a contest to see who is right - and a discussion - that is to see what is right
Yes for the medieval images. That is exactly the function of an indulgence.Thank you t2andreo, I have been curious about whether it would be acceptable for me to earn an indulgence for a deceased family member when I'm a baptized but not practicing Catholic. I appreciate you taking such care to explain a pretty confusing topic.
I found this in a guide to the Camino San Salvador, a plenary indulgence available annually for one week in September in Oviedo:
La Perdonanza is a week long festival or Jubilee, from the 14th to the 21st of September every year in Oviedo. During these days, believers may obtain a plenary indulgence, which brings a pardon of all sins. Unlike Santiago, in which the faithful must wait for a Holy Year to obtain an indulgence, in Oviedo it is available every year.
This indulgence, given by Pope John VIII on the request of Alfonso II, will be granted to anyone who goes into the Cathedral, prays before the statue of El Salvador (Christ the Savior) and before the relics of the Holy Chamber (including the Holy Shroud, the Holy Chest, the Crosses of Victory and of the Angels, and the agate chest). The Jubilee is always celebrated on the same dates, tied to the festival of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross and the Holy Days of San Mateo (Saint Matthew). The presence of a pilgrims’ hospital and a pilgrims’ cemetery in Oviedo gives us an idea of its importance as a religious center.
I've seen a few images in my camino guide books and medieval art history classes depicting souls waiting to be freed from purgatory. Is this the function of an indulgence when earned for the deceased?
Is there anything tangible associated with an earned indulgence, any way it is officially submitted or delivered?
Well, that's a bit of a general question…I noticed that the text quoted from the guidebook left out the part about the necessity of confession and communion.
There‘s another question on my mind but I’m not going to ask it as it can be seen as „discussing religion“ which is against forum rules.
But this question should be ok: The guidebook text states that you can get a Plenary Indulgence in Oviedo every year in September but only in specific years in Santiago. Which is of course a correct statement. So my question is this: Are Catholics aware of the changes since the Middle Ages and are they aware of the many more opportunities to gain a Plenary Indulgence for themselves or a deceased person in 2019?
Thank you for your reply, @BPG2017. Interesting in this context may be the option of gaining a Plenary Indulgence for a deceased person by visiting a cemetery each day between November 1 and November 8 plus fulfilling the other usual conditions.there are many ways to gain Plenary indulgences - the "easiest" by far is watching the Easter and New Year Papal blessing on TV - but the condition of Confession, Communion and prayers for the intentions of the Pope, is always (and WAS always) attached
As a practicing Catholic, you don't do the Camino to gain a plenary indulgence. As you say, there are easier ways to gain that. You go as a special, once-in-a-lifetime major devout act, for whatever intention, or (as in my case) for no specific intention other than to grow in faith and pray for all those whom I usually pray for. The plenary indulgence is, so to speak, a side benefit. (I did my Confession in Burgos, making it a general life confession, after many days meditating on the road. Communion many times along the way, of course.)Thank you for your reply, @BPG2017. Interesting in this context may be the option of gaining a Plenary Indulgence for a deceased person by visiting a cemetery each day between November 1 and November 8 plus fulfilling the other usual conditions.
If I understand correctly, and this is rarely mentioned, for a Plenary Indulgence to take effect so to speak one has to have a genuine intention and attitude which also involves the intention to live closer to faith and God (I'm expressing this badly, I know). It certainly isn't a formal transaction - I do this and then I get it in return - and as you pointed out one doesn't receive a paper or other material token. Obtaining a Plenary Indulgence also doesn't require a pilgrimage, whether on foot or otherwise. This is one of several major differences between now and then: in earlier times people could get a Plenary Indulgence only at special places and they had to travel there, often on foot as they had no other means.
So the question is why even go to Santiago or Oviedo or Rome today to obtain a Plenary Indulgence when you might as well get it at home? Surely there's no difference in value depending on the location? I suppose the answer would be that a special environment may help to increase one's inner commitment, intention and attitude.
But there are several Catholic priests who are members of the forum. I invite them to correct any errors I made, or to flesh out anything that calls for a better explanation. Knowledge is good.
This is such a great discussion, but I'm also feeling myself in danger of veering off into a few potential 'no-go' religion questions, like how to confess and commune as a first-timer. I should work this in to my other preparation so it can come from a sincere place. Rule 2 does acknowledge the Camino and Religion are closely linked & so the fuzziness is unavoidable.
Are there other places (other forums, other sites, dial-a-sister...) where these questions are welcome? I would be happy to put a sort of external referral list to share under the 'Resources' tab here. When people have these types of questions they can be sent in a helpful direction, outside this community and perhaps toward a one-on-one discussion. This will send a message that the questioning is fine - encouraged, in fact - here is just not the right place for it
You say you are a "first-timer". Does that mean you have never been to Confession and have not received First Communion? How well are you aware of their meaning and importance, and of the conditions for receiving them worthily?
That's very clear, thank you. I did exactly that for a good friend who was ill. He died a few days after I returned home, but he had a copy of the Compostela that I emailed to him. His widow has the original, she collected it from me a couple of weeks ago.Simple answer to the OP is NO. Each person seeking a Compostela must present themselves and their evidence of completion (a properly stamped credencial).
For example, a couple comes to the Pilgrim Office after completing their Camino. One person leaves the partner in line while they go off to their hotel, have lunch, etc. The partner CANNOT obtain both their Compostela and the Compostela for the absent partner. The absent person MUST return to the other partner in line BEFORE they accede to the front of the queue... PERIOD!
I cannot tell you how many times I have to tell the left behind partner to call, text, or go fetch the wandering pilgrim. It happens every day. The rules are simple. One present and eligible face, one Compostela...
The SOLE EXCEPTION is that a living pilgrim may obtain their Compostela, in their name (the one one the credencial), but with the name of a second person appended to it at the bottom. This is called 'In Vicare Pro." It is Latin and colloquially means "in place of." It is used to dedicate a Compostela and all spiritual rights thereunto appertaining (if any) to both the person obtaining the Compostela AND the named person.
The second person, not present, and named "In Vicare Pro" MUST be either deceased OR living, but in a physical condition that makes their ability to do their own pilgrimage a non-issue. For example, I have done "In Vicare Pro" pilgrimages dedicated to both my deceased brother and father, as well as my living but 86-year old mother.
I have, on several occasions, encountered surviving children, siblings or spouses in the Pilgrim Office queue who have TWO fully stamped credencials, one for themselves and one for another person who is deceased. They ask me if they can obtain a second Compostela for the deceased person.
The answer is always a polite NO. However, I explain the "in Vicaro Pro" provision. This usually accomplishes their purpose, to dedicate the pilgrimage, and obtain whatever spiritual benefits that may accrue, to the deceased person.
NOTE: Catholic Church dogma specifically allows for a living person to accomplish the pilgrimage and obtain a Compostela In Vicare Pro to the benefit of a deceased or invalid person.
NOTE - 2: This is a one-at-a-time thing. One living pilgrim can only obtain one In Vicare Pro dedication on one Compostela. To obtain the In Vicare Pro dedication for two or more deceased or invalid persons, you would have to do two or more pilgrimages...
Hope this is clear and helps the dialog.
That makes it a little complex. Catholic and Methodist understandings of the nature of Communion are slightly different, and Methodism does not recognize Confession to a priest. In your own heart, would you be able to approach these two Sacraments in a Catholic spirit? More precisely,Thank you for taking the risk!
I was baptized Catholic but received First Communion in the Methodist church (parents divorced and my religious upbringing changed in the process) and spent summers at a born-again-Christian summer camp. Now 46, I've pieced together a regular spiritual practice that feels personally authentic. While I've had no formal Catechism, I sense the importance of these things and desire to receive them worthily on behalf of my family member. I suppose I'm just not sure how to get started.
Last time I walked the Camino Frances, the Holy Door at the cathedral in Santiago was open. As one who has never sinned, I walked through it and now I have Credit to use for any potential future sins. I feel so free.
I now know who has been compensating for my many years of less than good behaviour!!As one who has never sinned, ...
I now know who has been compensating for my many years of less than good behaviour!!
As a practicing Catholic, you don't do the Camino to gain a plenary indulgence. As you say, there are easier ways to gain that. You go as a special, once-in-a-lifetime major devout act, for whatever intention, or (as in my case) for no specific intention other than to grow in faith and pray for all those whom I usually pray for. The plenary indulgence is, so to speak, a side benefit. (I did my Confession in Burgos, making it a general life confession, after many days meditating on the road. Communion many times along the way, of course.)
There are sometimes good discussions about this on the forum that go beyond the superficial but they are rare, for obvious reasons. I, in any case, have a much better understanding of current beliefs now that goes beyond the mantra of let's just be tolerant of each other's beliefs.I suppose the average Catholic will know more about today's rules than about the medieval ones.
I think that we need a better awareness of the difference between cultural awareness and religious propaganda. Unfortunately we seem to have developed a cultural "mental block" against knowledge about things Christian, and especially Catholic. The sorts of questions that would be perfectly legit, and interesting fodder for conversation, if they pertained to, say, Buddhist, Jewish or Pagan beliefs, are avoided as if they were explosive.There are sometimes good discussions about this on the forum that go beyond the superficial but they are rare, for obvious reasons. I, in any case, have a much better understanding of current beliefs now that goes beyond the mantra of let's just be tolerant of each other's beliefs.
During the course of my long walk to Santiago (long in time, less so in km, as I didn't walk it in one go) I developed an interest in Romanesque iconography, trying to understand what I see, and that inevitably led to questions about the core of Christian teaching past and present that I at least don't usually ask myself. So it was with interest that I learnt this: first of all, the fire of purgatory isn't the fire of hell. Hell and purgatory are two different places; souls may end up after death either in one or the other but not in both. Purgatory (and hence indulgence) isn't part of Protestant and Anglican thinking. The modern concept of purgatory doesn't include the idea of fire at all.
In medieval visual representations, one can usually distinguish between hell and purgatory as follows: The souls (human figures) in purgatory lift their hands and faces upwards towards heaven and God, begging for salvation. Those in hell have no hope for salvation and don't look upwards.
Culturally enriching for sure but not only culturally ...I am sure you found it interesting, and culturally enriching, to go into the meanings of the incredible variety of iconography!
So it was with interest that I learnt this: first of all, the fire of purgatory isn't the fire of hell. Hell and purgatory are two different places; souls may end up after death either in one or the other but not in both. Purgatory (and hence indulgence) isn't part of Protestant and Anglican thinking. The modern concept of purgatory doesn't include the idea of fire at all.
There are also lots of old weather sayings in German, Dutch and French for Saint James Day (25 July). They obviously are said to work for the area to which they are linked culturally, not for Punxsutawney in western PennsylvaniaAs to cultural traces, I’ve learnt recently that Jakobi is a German word. An Jakobi means "on the feast day of Saint James" (which is coming up right now, btw)
La Perdonanza is a week long festival or Jubilee, from the 14th to the 21st of September every year in Oviedo. During these days, believers may obtain a plenary indulgence, which brings a pardon of all sins. Unlike Santiago, in which the faithful must wait for a Holy Year to obtain an indulgence, in Oviedo it is available every year.
According to Xacopedia - which is not infallible, however - the historically special dates for obtaining a plenary indulgence in the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela are 25th July and 30th December, as mentioned above, and 21st April (consecration of the cathedral in 1211) of every year. But, as mentioned already several times, nowadays in principle possible on any day throughout any year anywhere.the plenary indulgence every year on 25th July (so today for those fulfilling the conditions !!) and reportedly also 23rd May and 30th December ; and I believe at the Easter Mass (either Vigil Mass or Sunday).
According to Xacopedia - which is not infallible, however - the historically special dates for obtaining a plenary indulgence in the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela are 25th July and 30th December, as mentioned above, and 21st April (consecration of the cathedral in 1211) of every year. But, as mentioned already several times, nowadays in principle possible on any day throughout any year anywhere.
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