Shakedown request: February on the Camino Frances, 35 pounds current weight

Former member 92300 · Dec 23, 2022

Rita Flower said:
Ditto re washing machines - although they cost €3+to use. And I think the cousin is on a budget.
Mid Camino this year when I ran out of my own supplies I purchased a small shampoo which I used to wash hair, body and clothes.
But I didn’t wash clothes every day (just daily socks and undies) as I had merino shirts and trekking pants that didn’t smell.
One of the gifts of the Camino is that you pat down everything to essentials and realise one needs very little to live and be happy.
Blessing to you and your cousin
PS Can’t praise merino tops enough - I had three layers of various weights. Temps went down to 1C. I was never cold when I saw others who were.

Yes - I just assume that he was probably wanting actual detergent specifically for washing machines and it sounds like he isn't planning to wash clothes daily - which is the only reason why you would need detergent and extra clothes in the first place. But again - a shampoo bar is great for handwashing - but as you mentioned, regular shampoo can be used too. I know I have used shampoo on occasion in washing machines.

And yes - I love my merino wool! I I use it for my shirts, mid-layer when needed, bras, underwear, and socks. And in winter - buff/hat too.

davebugg · Dec 23, 2022

dougfitz said:
I don't think this is particularly good advice for someone undertaking a winter camino. If there is anything I have observed here, it is that there is no 10% rule, and if you do want to use it at a rule of thumb, it is really only relevant for a summer camino. I wrote this back in 2015 when asked what I thought authoritative sources for pack weight might be, and more recently noted this in response to a similar question recently. The link to the CSJ advice is still live.

This appears to completely miss the point of using a from the skin out approach to weight targets. One great advantage of using an FSO target is that it doesn't change from season to season, unlike base weight targets, and the very fact that it includes consumables and worn items allows meaningful trade-offs to be made between the three, base weight items, consumables and worn items. It quickly becomes obvious what effect wearing a boot in winter might be if it weighs and extra four or five hundred grams, and whether reducing the amount of shampoo and conditioner might compensate for that if one needs to stay within one's FSO target.

There has been quite a lot of discussion about this over the years. Here is a link to other comments I have made over time. They are still as relevant today.

In all of this, if you want to walk far, fast, or both, make sure the weight you carry is kept as low as you can.

Was this not for March? If not, then you are correct.

C clearly · Dec 23, 2022

For most people, a pack volume in the range of 30-45 L and a base pack weight of about 5-8 kg will serve well without too much unnecessary stuff. A large person in winter would tend to be at the upper end, and even might go above, for particular reasons that they should be able to identify. However, that range provides a sensible reference range for newcomers to the Camino.

I recommend using scales to check the weight of items, but prospective pilgrims should not need to hunt down calculators, or embark on study of the scientific literature. Here is my advice:

Gather the stuff you think you need or want. Weigh it. If it is over 7 kg, make sure you are comfortable carrying that weight, and think hard about what causes it to be this heavy.
Find the most comfortable backpack in the range of 30-45 L. Check that your stuff will fit into it. If not, reduce quantity or get a larger pack.

davebugg · Dec 23, 2022

dougfitz said:
I don't think this is particularly good advice for someone undertaking a winter camino. If there is anything I have observed here, it is that there is no 10% rule, and if you do want to use it at a rule of thumb, it is really only relevant for a summer camino. I wrote this back in 2015 when asked what I thought authoritative sources for pack weight might be, and more recently noted this in response to a similar question recently. The link to the CSJ advice is still live.

This appears to completely miss the point of using a from the skin out approach to weight targets. One great advantage of using an FSO target is that it doesn't change from season to season, unlike base weight targets, and the very fact that it includes consumables and worn items allows meaningful trade-offs to be made between the three, base weight items, consumables and worn items. It quickly becomes obvious what effect wearing a boot in winter might be if it weighs and extra four or five hundred grams, and whether reducing the amount of shampoo and conditioner might compensate for that if one needs to stay within one's FSO target.

There has been quite a lot of discussion about this over the years. Here is a link to other comments I have made over time. They are still as relevant today.

In all of this, if you want to walk far, fast, or both, make sure the weight you carry is kept as low as you can.

The fact that seasonal changes in clothing are required really does not change my point. The assumption always is that one will wear clothing appropriate to the season. I am not wearing trail runners or shorts in snow and on ice. So my Skin Out with boots doesn't matter unless I would normally wear trail runners to travel thru snow or ice. What does matter is comparing boots to get the lightest weight given the same functionality. The amount of weight on the feet does make a difference in terms of energy output, but the choice is between boots, not sandals vs boots.

The base weight of the backpack will change due to the season, as lighter or heavier seasonally appropriate gear is added or subtracted. That still means that it is the base weight FOR THAT SEASON that is used as a comparative when gear choices are made.

My base pack weight for a Camino is what I compare when looking at gear for a Camino. . . If it is three season spring - fall. If a winter Camino, it would be useless to use my three season base weight to compare weights that include winter clothing and gear choices.

Same for wilderness backpacking. . . My base weight for a week long trip in the mountains will not see me using a Camino backpack baseweight as a comparative when deciding on a backpack baseweight that includes tent, heavier quilt, air mattress, larger first aid kit, when deciding on what goes into the backpack.

I fully agree that in order to achieve a lighter backpack during trips requiring carrying heavier clothing in the pack, that I will look at the various offerings and try to choose the lightest of everything that does the equivalent job I need it to do.

trecile · Dec 23, 2022

davebugg said:
Was this not for March? If not, then you are correct.

It's a Camino starting in February. March has been mentioned in regard to mosquito repellent.

davebugg · Dec 23, 2022

trecile said:
It's a Camino starting in February. March has been mentioned in regard to mosquito repellent.

Thanks for the clarification.

dougfitz · Dec 23, 2022

@davebugg, we clearly have quite different approaches to planning here. The very reason that the FSO approach gives greater consistency is that once one has settled on a FSO weight budget, let us say 20% of our walking weight, this allows one to analyse the effects of both large and small differences in weight between what is going into one's pack, what is being worn and what food, water and other consumables will fit into that total budget. The total FSO budget doesn't vary from season to season - it is a constant that one can use irrespective of season. What varies is the proportions allocated to base weight, consumables and worn items.

In your approach, you effectively have no real target other than what one writer called 'Unbearable Lightness'. That seems to be the mantra of the many ultralight enthusiasts here, but it's not really all that useful when advising someone who hasn't spent at least a little time working out how resilient they are, what their cold tolerance might be, and perhaps most of all, how much they are prepared to pay for the quite expensive ultralight gear that some might just find unaffordable.

davebugg said:
So my Skin Out with boots doesn't matter unless I would normally wear trail runners to travel thru snow or ice. What does matter is comparing boots to get the lightest weight given the same functionality. The amount of weight on the feet does make a difference in terms of energy output, but the choice is between boots, not sandals vs boots.

davebugg said:
The base weight of the backpack will change due to the season, as lighter or heavier seasonally appropriate gear is added or subtracted. That still means that it is the base weight FOR THAT SEASON that is used as a comparative when gear choices are made.

It's that uncertainty about which base weight might be most appropriate that an FSO approach removes completely. If you need to carry warmer, thus heavier, clothing, then you might have to reduce your consumables budget, and carry less food or water. Rather than stocking up on non-perishable items for several days when in the supermarket, it might only be for one or two days.

Water is one of the easy, but perhaps more risky items to look at, and many people already do that. In summer I can normally walk for three hours safely with a combination of bladder and a small bottle. When I have walked in spring, there is less risk of heat exhaustion, and only partially filling a bladder was my first response, followed by making sure that I never passed an open bar where I could refill my small bottle.

@davebugg, I must admit I am puzzled why you seem so hard over on others not using what is a more consistent and reliable planning approach. I can understand that you might not want to use it personally, perhaps because you do have the experience to balance some of these choices intuitively. But I don't see why that should prevent other people trying this approach, and if they do find it useful, incorporate it into their planning paradigms.

More, exceeding the weight budget is not going to create a sudden precipice where one can no longer walk. Walk times might increase, and one's average daily planning distances might also need to be reduced. Minimising these effects is still a good thing to do, but always in the context of being sufficiently well prepared for the weather conditions one is going to walk in.

C clearly · Dec 24, 2022

dougfitz said:
once one has settled on a FSO weight budget

I never settle on a FSO weight budget. It seems that the basic items that I "need" weigh 5 or 6 kg, or even 7 kg if you want to include what I am wearing. It isn't a budget. It is a recognition that those are the things I want to have, and the question is "Can I carry it?".

dougfitz said:
you effectively have no real target other than what one writer called 'Unbearable Lightness'.

That sounds like a good aspiration to me!

davebugg · Dec 24, 2022

dougfitz said:
@davebugg, we clearly have quite different approaches to planning here. The very reason that the FSO approach gives greater consistency is that once one has settled on a FSO weight budget, let us say 20% of our walking weight, this allows one to analyse the effects of both large and small differences in weight between what is going into one's pack, what is being worn and what food, water and other consumables will fit into that total budget. The total FSO budget doesn't vary from season to season - it is a constant that one can use irrespective of season. What varies is the proportions allocated to base weight, consumables and worn items.

In your approach, you effectively have no real target other than what one writer called 'Unbearable Lightness'. That seems to be the mantra of the many ultralight enthusiasts here, but it's not really all that useful when advising someone who hasn't spent at least a little time working out how resilient they are, what their cold tolerance might be, and perhaps most of all, how much they are prepared to pay for the quite expensive ultralight gear that some might just find unaffordable.

It's that uncertainty about which base weight might be most appropriate that an FSO approach removes completely. If you need to carry warmer, thus heavier, clothing, then you might have to reduce your consumables budget, and carry less food or water. Rather than stocking up on non-perishable items for several days when in the supermarket, it might only be for one or two days.

Water is one of the easy, but perhaps more risky items to look at, and many people already do that. In summer I can normally walk for three hours safely with a combination of bladder and a small bottle. When I have walked in spring, there is less risk of heat exhaustion, and only partially filling a bladder was my first response, followed by making sure that I never passed an open bar where I could refill my small bottle.

@davebugg, I must admit I am puzzled why you seem so hard over on others not using what is a more consistent and reliable planning approach. I can understand that you might not want to use it personally, perhaps because you do have the experience to balance some of these choices intuitively. But I don't see why that should prevent other people trying this approach, and if they do find it useful, incorporate it into their planning paradigms.

More, exceeding the weight budget is not going to create a sudden precipice where one can no longer walk. Walk times might increase, and one's average daily planning distances might also need to be reduced. Minimising these effects is still a good thing to do, but always in the context of being sufficiently well prepared for the weather conditions one is going to walk in.

Quite the opposite, I couldn't care less what others choose. My input is as an example, not as a Bible. As far as 'no real target', what does that even mean? My target, is to be as light as possible while maintaining all that is needed to stay comfortable and safe.

Base pack weight, in my judgement, is the most consistent of all measurements IF the goal is to do a comparative look at the addition or subtraction of gear or clothing to the backpack as to weight that will be carried. Again, I do not care someone wishes to carry, but I can provide an example of what works for me. If that is rejected, no biggie. What I puzzle over is why you or anyone would object to that. Your method is one I rejected a long time ago based on what I found to be confusing and full of guesses. But it seems to work for you, and I would not argue with that . The mistaken approach is to have only one packing list, which I do not. I have a Winter backpacking, a 3 season backpacking, a Camino list, a Mountaineering list, etc..

The only list I believe I have provided for gawking is for a Spring thru Fall Camino. That list is more than adequate for me, and there is no danger of my being ill prepared. If I were to go in Winter, that list changes. For a Winter backpacking trip, my list for that activity is an Excel spreadsheet, and allows me to look at any new clothing or gear I may wish to substitute, making it easy to see what weight penalties may be incurred or subtracted when changes are made.

Base weight is for non-consumables. You add consumables TO that base weight to see what the TOTAL backpack weight may be.

FSO? What isn't in or on the backpack is not counted. As I said, unless my normal activity state of being is nude, their is no real advantage to counting it. That is apart from the fact that while adding weight in clothing will affect energy output, that weight is also carried differently than carrying a backpack.

The actual method used to determine what is in the backpack or on the body is a matter of how one perceives its usability, which is why your post contains kernels of truth.

Texas Walker · Dec 24, 2022

peregrino_tom said:
Hi Julio
I’ve just been looking at the three questions you’ve raised on the forum so far, on behalf of your cousin, who plans to walk the camino Norte for the first time starting 1 February.
While it’s great that you are trying to help him, your cousin is the one who needs to own and drive this - not you, or this is not going to end well.

If your cousin is a fit tough Spanish-speaking guy with plenty of money and a cool temperament, able to think on his feet and happy to spend many cold nights alone... then true, he may be able to rock up on the Norte with a hefty pack prepared by you and do it. But I think that would be highly untypical!

Packing and trying out ideas and options is a really important part of preparing for the camino - as is researching routes and working out which ones are viable in winter. Your cousin needs to be doing this. A winter camino is never an easy option, it will take much fortitude and a bloody-minded determination to succeed. His engagement in preparation can help him overcome many of the challenges.

My advice -
1 your cousin needs to starting working all of this out for himself. You can advise him a little but he needs to own all of this - with or without input from this forum.
2 IMO his starting point should be appreciate that this is going to be tough. He needs to minimise the considerable challenge of a full length winter camino by focussing ruthlessly on what it will take to achieve it. And that is going to be a lot more do-able if he opts for the Camino Frances not the Norte and only carries what he needs to complete the camino, not a great big bundle of other stuff for leisure time or subsequent travels.
Cheers, tom

What he said. For someone who has never been a pilgrim, the Camino is tough. Even the Frances in late spring/early summer is tough. We have seen many posts by folks who have been discouraged beyond continuing by blisters.

And maybe the question Julio needs to ask is this: who is being called to the Camino? His cousin, or him? I know in my personal experience that my spouse was called first, and then he called me...but you know, when that calling happens, it's never really your friend or relation who is inviting you. (Enough said, I will respect the rules of the Forum, I think this is enough of a hint.)

I was very nervous about the Camino when it was first mentioned to me. Doing my own research especially including the guidebook and the Forum were very helpful to me. Possibly the cousin needs to look for him/herself. It will become clear over time whether the call is there or not. (When we first walked, we couldn't understand why anyone would do it more than once. Then, two weeks after our return home, we couldn't wait to return. Being a pilgrim can grow on a person, or the things the person needs to experience may happen all in the first walk. No one can know ahead of time.)

I wish Julio's cousin all the best and buen camino!

henrythedog · Dec 24, 2022

My personal last word on the topic - I’ve never posted a packing list on here as it is so comprehensive as to invite ridicule. When I have weighed ‘everything’ I really mean that. During lockdown I went so far as to confirm that a €20 note weighs less that 2x€10.

Over many years of backpacking -not only ‘on Camino’, there are other options - I’ve refined what I carry to my personal balance between weight and comfort.

I’ve been at both ends of the scale. In my youth the army decreed that I should carry unfeasible loads from A to somewhere uncomfortably beyond B. In later life I have competed without distinction in mountain marathons where ridiculous safety compromises are made to achieve the least weight carried.

The solution is somewhere in between, and unlikely to be found in a formula.

The CF is probably one of the most benign environments in which to learn what to carry. If you get your footware right, you’ll be OK. The climate is good, there is plentiful decent accommodation and there’s a taxi-number on every second lamp-post.

I might actually get around to posting my list over Christmas. I’ll have to type it out again in plain English.

Texas Walker · Dec 24, 2022

dougfitz said:
@trecile is right, this is at best a rule of thumb. It might work well enough for a summer camino, but is unlikely to be a good guide for pack weight in the other seasons.

There are good sources that suggest that winter walking could require anything up to double the volume of gear compared to summer. Like others, I think I could pack for a winter camino in less than that, but I doubt I could get it down to the point where it fits into a 34 litre pack. There are just too many unknowns for me to even bother commenting in detail.

What I would suggest is the following pattern for clothing, where I suspect there is considerably more than might be required:

things to take three of: base layers, ie underwear and socks

things to take two of: mid-layers, ie trousers and shirts (T or otherwise)

things to take one of: everything else, ie warm, wind and waterproof, gloves, beanie, tube scarf

concessions to comfort: I take a pair of shorts and an additional long sleeve base layer top to wear in bed, and I have a medium brimmed hat as well as a beanie. I do take a light pair of shoes for use in the evening, but they could also be used during the walking day if conditions were suitable. I normally have walking mitts as well as warm gloves, although for a winter camino I might just take good gloves instead.

for a winter camino, I would consider taking full length gaiters in addition to rain pants to keep mud/slush/snow out. Having walked at the end of winter, there were days when one didn't want to be encased in full waterproof gear, but needed some more protection around the legs than trekking pants alone might offer.

The art of layering here is to select clothing that is going to offer more insulation, ie heavier weight base layers and mid layers, than one might do in summer. Taking extra garments should be unnecessary if you can get this right. More, and it has already been said, don't pack things just to 'look nice' in the evening. Wear the next day's clothes and warm layer, or even your ever so stylish waterproof jacket. No one really cares how you look!

ps @JulioCesarSalad, if your cousin is so debilitated in undertaking their own research in planning and preparing for a camino, I am wondering how they will survive on the camino without you. Do you really think that they are capable of doing this without having done some of the basics here themselves?

Speaking of contingencies that don't weigh much, I had Dirtygirls gaiters for my last camino. They're lightweight gaiters that keep the random debris out of the hiking shoes. I can't recommend them strongly enough. https://dirtygirlgaiters.com/ But if you're not interested, they're not essential.

Buen Camino!

trecile · Dec 24, 2022

My "rule" is: Carry what makes you comfortable, so long as you can comfortably carry it.

AussieWayne · Dec 24, 2022

JulioCesarSalad said:
Hello everyone, my cousin is planning to do the Camino de Santiago in February, starting February 1 on the Camino Frances. Could you all please help me with a shakedown? It's his first time

Most lists I've found are for summer Caminos, so there's a bunch of extra stuff for winter that I had to include

I’ve listed out his equipment below, but would appreciate help with a shakedown.
Lighterpack available here, starred items are weight estimates
Things I am unsure of are listed at the bottom:

TOTAL WEIGHT: 35 pounds
BASE WEIGHT: 21 pounds

HYGEINE
- Toothbrush
- Toothpaste
- Shampoo
- Conditioner
- Picaridin mosquito repellent (for March)
- Soap
- Detergent
- Quick dry towel

CLOTHES
- 4 pairs of wool socks
- 4 pairs of underwear
- Thermal pants, 2
- Thermal shirts, 2
- Mid-layer warm (like a Patagonia fleece)
- Vest (Columbia down vest)
- Puffy warm jacket (like a Patagonia Nanopuff)
- Gloves (not waterproof, should they be?)
- Hiking pants, 2
- Weatherproof pants, Fjallraven Vidda Pro, waxed for wind resistance
- Hiking shirts, 2
- Relaxing shirts, 2

SHOES
- Flipflops (shower)
- Tennis shoes (hanging out/relaxing shoes)
- Hiking boots

RAIN
- Rain Jacket (goretex)
- Rain pants (goretex)
- Dry bag, 5L
- A safety net for phones and electronics during a rainstorm
- Backpack rain cover

SLEEPING
- Sleeping pad (foam)
- Sleeping bag 15F (30F comfort)
- Camping pillow
- Hammock
- He wants to go camping afterward and will have to carry the hammock throughout, even if he doesn’t use it during the pilgrimage itself

ELECTRONICS
- Phone
- Phone charger
- Portable battery
- Headlamp
- Lantern

KITCHEN
- Eating bowl
- Spork

EMERGENCY KIT
- First aid kit
- Whistle
- Thermal blanket

BACKPACK
- 34L backpack

WATER
- Nalgene 1L
- Backpack hydration 3L

Medical
- Blister bandages

TOOLS
- Swiss Army knife
- Light cord
- Accessory cord
- Carabiners

THINGS I WONDER ABOUT
- 1 flannel shirt
- for warmth and to have a collared shirt for the post-hike travel
- Medium dry bag
- Is it useful? The backpack already has a rain cover

The best advice I received was - look at every item in your pack. Ask yourself is it absolutely necessary? What will I do if I don't have it? My instinct is your pack and contents is way to heavy but that's a personal thing.
I started from SJPDP in mid-March with a lot of snow on days 1 and 2. Then another day of snow a few days later. I was carrying 6 kg (approx 13lb). Very pleased I didn't carry more weight. Remember you can easily launder in the shower and many albergue offer laundry services. Remember its not a beauty parade.
Hope that is useful

dougfitz · Dec 24, 2022

davebugg said:
Quite the opposite, I couldn't care less what others choose.

Thank you for explaining that. I apologize for misinterpreting your earlier comment, quoted below, as indicating that you were advising others not to use a FSO approach.

davebugg said:
Skin Out weight is meaningless in terms of how the body handles a backpack load vs what is worn ON the body itself. Besides, unless one backpacks stark raving naked, there is no need to count clothing as part of the backpack load.

For planning, what counts is the backpacks Base Weight (everything in the pack + the pack, but not consumables). I CAN carry up to three liters of water, but I only count the weight of the device that HOLDS the water, since the water I add will vary and be consumed, therefore less weight, as the day progresses.

davebugg · Dec 24, 2022

No

dougfitz said:
Thank you for explaining that. I apologize for misinterpreting your earlier comment, quoted below, as indicating that you were advising others not to use a FSO approach.

I can understand how my writing confused the issue by leaving out "To me...." The American backpacking community has had rabid discussions on the value of FSO for years. Merry Christmas, Doug.

RRat · Dec 24, 2022

JulioCesarSalad said:
Yes! The backpack will be purchased when he is in DC visiting me, so we can just put everything in mine, go to REI, and find a backpack he likes that will hold everything

AS to shoes, I'm thinking of sending him with the three pairs, shower shoes and super light sneakers in the backpack, and if it's too much he can just mail his sneakers ahead

A mug: I have to check how much the bowl actually weights because it's very light. Would a mug be useful outside of food? I'm assuming coffee would be from a cafe, and as such would have its own mug

Microwave safe. Handy when having a drink from a fountain. Essential when you pop open a bottle of wine and no one has a glass. Wine fountain a must.

Karl G · Dec 24, 2022

JulioCesarSalad said:
Hello everyone, my cousin is planning to do the Camino de Santiago in February, starting February 1 on the Camino Frances. Could you all please help me with a shakedown? It's his first time

Most lists I've found are for summer Caminos, so there's a bunch of extra stuff for winter that I had to include

I’ve listed out his equipment below, but would appreciate help with a shakedown.
Lighterpack available here, starred items are weight estimates
Things I am unsure of are listed at the bottom:

TOTAL WEIGHT: 35 pounds
BASE WEIGHT: 21 pounds

HYGEINE
- Toothbrush
- Toothpaste
- Shampoo
- Conditioner
- Picaridin mosquito repellent (for March)
- Soap
- Detergent
- Quick dry towel

CLOTHES
- 4 pairs of wool socks
- 4 pairs of underwear
- Thermal pants, 2
- Thermal shirts, 2
- Mid-layer warm (like a Patagonia fleece)
- Vest (Columbia down vest)
- Puffy warm jacket (like a Patagonia Nanopuff)
- Gloves (not waterproof, should they be?)
- Hiking pants, 2
- Weatherproof pants, Fjallraven Vidda Pro, waxed for wind resistance
- Hiking shirts, 2
- Relaxing shirts, 2

SHOES
- Flipflops (shower)
- Tennis shoes (hanging out/relaxing shoes)
- Hiking boots

RAIN
- Rain Jacket (goretex)
- Rain pants (goretex)
- Dry bag, 5L
- A safety net for phones and electronics during a rainstorm
- Backpack rain cover

SLEEPING
- Sleeping pad (foam)
- Sleeping bag 15F (30F comfort)
- Camping pillow
- Hammock
- He wants to go camping afterward and will have to carry the hammock throughout, even if he doesn’t use it during the pilgrimage itself

ELECTRONICS
- Phone
- Phone charger
- Portable battery
- Headlamp
- Lantern

KITCHEN
- Eating bowl
- Spork

EMERGENCY KIT
- First aid kit
- Whistle
- Thermal blanket

BACKPACK
- 34L backpack

WATER
- Nalgene 1L
- Backpack hydration 3L

Medical
- Blister bandages

TOOLS
- Swiss Army knife
- Light cord
- Accessory cord
- Carabiners

THINGS I WONDER ABOUT
- 1 flannel shirt
- for warmth and to have a collared shirt for the post-hike travel
- Medium dry bag
- Is it useful? The backpack already has a rain cover

What the heck, I’ll give it a shot:
Get a combined shampoo/conditioner or ditch the conditioner. Make it a small bottle and buy new if needed to refill
3 pairs of socks and underwear Is plenty - you could argue you only need two
Go down to one pair of thermal pants and shirt. Not sure the thermal pants are needed at all, seriously considering not taking them
Ditch the vest - you already have base layers and a jacket
Skip the weatherproof pants. I have a pair of Fjallraven - heavy and good for camping in the woods but not particularly waterproof even when waxed. Substitute the pair of rain pants if concerned - they’ll cut the wind and rain. Or skip one of the pair of hiking pants if you really want to keep these
Are the foam pad, pillow, lanterns, and hammock all for camping after the camino? If so, ship ahead and have stored, otherwise ditch these
Drop the sneakers and use lightweight crocs to double as shower shoes and casual wear - something like these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DGR9PWK/?tag=casaivar02-20

Just opinions - everyone is different - hope the ideas are helpful!

AlwynWellington · Dec 24, 2022

henrythedog said:
I’ll have to type it out again in plain English.

You might get your human companion to use the LighterPack app.

trecile · Dec 24, 2022

Karl G said:
Go down to one pair of thermal pants and shirt. Not sure the thermal pants are needed at all, seriously considering not taking them

The thermal pants might be useful occasionally, but not enough to warrant two pairs.
The weather in Northern Spain is similar to the weather where I live in Southern Oregon, and I go out for a long walk just about every day all winter. Sometimes I wear a pair of leggings underneath a pair of lightweight pants, but often after a couple of miles I remove the lightweight pants and I'm perfectly comfortable in just the leggings - and I get two hot with both pairs of pants.
I think that the thermal pants might be used to sleep in most nights.

Lurch · Dec 25, 2022

I think your cousin forgot the rice cooker! Are you sure he is not hiking the Pacific Coast trail?

dougfitz · Dec 25, 2022

Texas Walker said:
Speaking of contingencies that don't weigh much, I had Dirtygirls gaiters for my last camino. They're lightweight gaiters that keep the random debris out of the hiking shoes. I can't recommend them strongly enough. https://dirtygirlgaiters.com/ But if you're not interested, they're not essential.

Buen Camino!

my thinking behind recommending full length gaiters is my experience in wet and muddy conditions crossing the Pyrenees at the end of winter. There and further west there were regular muddy sections, but it was late enough so that when I walked, there was no slushy snow on the ground. I had one day where the bottom of my trouser legs were caked in mud, and I couldn't avoid washing them. After that, if I wore the gaiters I was able to avoid that. The alternative was to wear rain pants instead, which wasn't always necessary, and which tended to slow me down more than just wearing gaiters.

Using gaiters, as I suggested earlier, is entirely optional. I have both lightweight and heavier gaiters, and defer to taking the lighter ones on a pilgrimage walk. The heavier ones come into their own when scrub-bashing here on bushwalks. None of the camino walks I have done have needed that extra physical protection.

klinker · Dec 26, 2022

JulioCesarSalad said:
Hello everyone, my cousin is planning to do the Camino de Santiago in February, starting February 1 on the Camino Frances. Could you all please help me with a shakedown? It's his first time

Most lists I've found are for summer Caminos, so there's a bunch of extra stuff for winter that I had to include

I’ve listed out his equipment below, but would appreciate help with a shakedown.
Lighterpack available here, starred items are weight estimates
Things I am unsure of are listed at the bottom:

TOTAL WEIGHT: 35 pounds
BASE WEIGHT: 21 pounds

HYGEINE
- Toothbrush
- Toothpaste
- Shampoo
- Conditioner
- Picaridin mosquito repellent (for March)
- Soap
- Detergent
- Quick dry towel

CLOTHES
- 4 pairs of wool socks
- 4 pairs of underwear
- Thermal pants, 2
- Thermal shirts, 2
- Mid-layer warm (like a Patagonia fleece)
- Vest (Columbia down vest)
- Puffy warm jacket (like a Patagonia Nanopuff)
- Gloves (not waterproof, should they be?)
- Hiking pants, 2
- Weatherproof pants, Fjallraven Vidda Pro, waxed for wind resistance
- Hiking shirts, 2
- Relaxing shirts, 2

SHOES
- Flipflops (shower)
- Tennis shoes (hanging out/relaxing shoes)
- Hiking boots

RAIN
- Rain Jacket (goretex)
- Rain pants (goretex)
- Dry bag, 5L
- A safety net for phones and electronics during a rainstorm
- Backpack rain cover

SLEEPING
- Sleeping pad (foam)
- Sleeping bag 15F (30F comfort)
- Camping pillow
- Hammock
- He wants to go camping afterward and will have to carry the hammock throughout, even if he doesn’t use it during the pilgrimage itself

ELECTRONICS
- Phone
- Phone charger
- Portable battery
- Headlamp
- Lantern

KITCHEN
- Eating bowl
- Spork

EMERGENCY KIT
- First aid kit
- Whistle
- Thermal blanket

BACKPACK
- 34L backpack

WATER
- Nalgene 1L
- Backpack hydration 3L

Medical
- Blister bandages

TOOLS
- Swiss Army knife
- Light cord
- Accessory cord
- Carabiners

THINGS I WONDER ABOUT
- 1 flannel shirt
- for warmth and to have a collared shirt for the post-hike travel
- Medium dry bag
- Is it useful? The backpack already has a rain cover

Try to cut the clothing list in half. 2 pair of underwear, 2 pair socks (only merino wool! Unbound Merino has great stuff expensive but worth it. Darn tough socks) plan on doing laundry almost daily rather than carrying the weight. Very light tennis shoes (saurony, or wool allbirds very comfortable). I agree on two many pants. (prana – very comfortable/tough/light). Better to have outer pair like prana and then layer of light thermal then trying to get pants to cover both needs.

Thermal underwear – artilect systems baselayer merino wool blend for during day. Other pair – that could be for day but not as built for activity Smartwool (company name) thermal merino 250. Don’t forget BodyGlide for chafing – you should use every day. Sea to Summit bags and cube for clothing. Get all different colors. Everything in your backback should be in a smaller bag for organization.

Silk sleeping bag liner (use in albergue beds), no pillow (air) unless you really can sleep on one well. I bought a silk pillow case from Bissy (get the long one as pillows at albergues tend to be the long European ones) and put my soft fleece in it to make a pillow every night. Someone else might have an opinion on the puffy vest. I am more about layering like you would when skiing.

Tough outer shell (many out there), fleece under that, then depending on how cold – merino wool tee shirt, thermal shirt, maybe a fleece shirt if really cold. Layers easier to interchange and don’t need so many versions of things (can’t wear nanopuff in rain) good shell would replace need for rain protection if right thickness. If you go with shell – get the LIGHTEST running jacket you can find you can wear on warmer days with fleece to cut the wind.
Cut relaxing long shirt down to one.

There are different thoughts on getting a poncho that covers backpack too and using the ones now built into most good backpacks you can find. I found I used my backpack built in and had a good gortex rain jacket I could use independent (just for walking around) that wouldn’t be right if I only had the rain poncho.

Most of the time if you book one really good hotel at the end of the trip (not cheap) you can ask and send a package in advance to hotel (I did this) so you don’t carry the Hammock and lantern the whole way for the camping trip.

I really like my Deuer futura 32 (I think it is two small for all you have on your list). I looked very dorky but integrated two small front packs (reworked connections so it connected to my pack straps. Revamp Gear Front pack.

I used two 500ml Nalgene bottles (one in each side) and had room for sunglasses, phone and smaller stuff right upfront. I don’t like the blatter systems (I never know how much I drink or is left) and found I rarely needed to go to my reserve Nalgene bottles in the pack).

To find out how much space/or pack size you need - get a moving box, figure the dimensions and convert into cubit liters (the way packs are sized). Put all your stuff in the box you are taking and see how big you need the pack to be. I think you have way too much stuff but this can help to figure it out. Get a kitchen scale and weigh everything. Everything on my list is not cheap but as my Northern Camino was a bucket list item I tried to do it right. Hope your cousins trip is amazing! Eric

dick bird · Dec 26, 2022

davebugg said:
No

I can understand how my writing confused the issue by leaving out "To me...." The American backpacking community has had rabid discussions on the value of FSO for years. Merry Christmas, Doug.

Am I right in assuming 'FSO' stands for 'from skin out'? Google has offered me a number of other possibilities, none of which make a lot of sense in this context.

dougfitz · Dec 26, 2022

dick bird said:
Am I right in assuming 'FSO' stands for 'from skin out'? Google has offered me a number of other possibilities, none of which make a lot of sense in this context.

generally in this context it refers to From the Skin Out, a planning approach to pack weight or volume that includes all worn and carried items.

Its utility harks back to the notion that the total weight being carried determines an individual's speed and endurance, and that when planning any load carrying activity, knowing the trade-offs between these attributes allows one to make sensible decisions about the viability of a particular trip.

Without going into the details, using this approach, it would be barely possible for me to do a solo crossing of the Overland Track in Tasmania under standard conditions that included carrying all my food in addition to a tent. I could do that walk with a companion sharing the load and reducing our individual loads by sharing a range of common items between us.

Unless one is prone to collecting additional items of any substance, such as that nice handbag from Zara in Burgos, it establishes the viability of a particular combination of base weight, worn items and consumables at the outset of one's camino. Also, I think it is more relevant to individuals planning to walk in autumn, winter and spring. The conventional guidance, eg from CSJ and elsewhere about base pack weights seems perfectly adequate for walking in summer. When one has to contemplate warmer clothing or more reliable wind and rain protection, there is greater risk of reaching a FSO weight that will reduce one's speed, endurance or both.

Anecdotal evidence here is that many of us start out with packs we find too heavy, and one way or another, pare down our loads. I remember carrying items on my first Camino that I thought I would require crossing the Pyrenees. I didn't, and some ended up in albergue donation bins and others were posted to a friend in England. I might have avoided that if I had a better understanding at that time of the impact the total weight of what I was wearing and carrying was going to be.

Chingona · Dec 26, 2022

jl said:
I am currently on the Camino Francés, 2 days out from Santiago. I will not bore you with a list of all that I carry, but just want to say I have one set of clothes for walking and one set of clothes to change into at the end of the day. Some get added or not depending on the cold (or rain). I have a puffer jacket for additional warmth, which has been worn most evenings, and a pair of thermal trousers, yet to be worn. I wish I had only brought 2 pairs of socks instead of the three. The albergues I have stayed in have been warm - too warm. There are not many bars open between villages, but I haven't starved, and I always have a back up of muesli bars should they be needed.

Do you think a puffer jacket is necessary in April? I was not planning on bringing one, or a sleeping bag. What do you think?

dougfitz · Dec 26, 2022

Chingona said:
Do you think a puffer jacket is necessary in April? I was not planning on bringing one, or a sleeping bag. What do you think?

I started from SJPP in late Mar on my first camino, and didn't carry a puffer jacket. I had a mid-weight quarter zip fleece that I used at the start of most days and in the evenings. If I needed more, I would put on my rain jacket.

I carried a +5 deg C sleeping bag. It allowed me to stay warm in several albergues where there were no or only one blanket per pilgrim. It was used every night. When I walked the CF again, starting in early May, I carried a similar bag, although my wife and I stayed more often in private albergues and B&Bs where I tended to open the bag up and use it as a quilt. I cannot imagine that I would not take it if I walked again around springtime.

Chingona · Dec 26, 2022

dougfitz said:
I started from SJPP in late Mar on my first camino, and didn't carry a puffer jacket. I had a mid-weight quarter zip fleece that I used at the start of most days and in the evenings. If I needed more, I would put on my rain jacket.

I carried a +5 deg C sleeping bag. It allowed me to stay warm in several albergues where there were no or only one blanket per pilgrim. It was used every night. When I walked the CF again, starting in early May, I carried a similar bag, although my wife and I stayed more often in private albergues and B&Bs where I tended to open the bag up and use it as a quilt. I cannot imagine that I would not take it if I walked again around springtime.

Thanks so much!

jl · Dec 26, 2022

I would never go on any of the pilgrimage Routes at that time of the year without a sleeping bag. In mid summer I have travelled with an inner sheet only, up until about mid September. It depends how cold you get as regards a puffer jacket. Mine is an uber light one and for the convenience of being warm when I need to be I don't mind the extra weight. It snows in some parts of the Camino in April, and it can rain a lot at that time too, and so you may need it for warmth if you have had a day out in wind and rain.

Former member 92300 · Dec 26, 2022

Chingona said:
Do you think a puffer jacket is necessary in April? I was not planning on bringing one, or a sleeping bag. What do you think?

I need my down puffy in late May, June, and July on chilly days/nights! Used it a LOT in 2021, a little less in 2022 - but still used it.

Same with the sleeping bag - I shipped mine home from Pamplona in 2021 and totally regretted it. The first few nights were warm so I figured I was safe to ditch it. Then the cold front hit and lasted all the way to Santiago. If you are a very warm sleeper may not be in issue - but everyone was cold at night in 2021 (again - June/July). I would rather have it and not need it than be way too cold every night affecting my ability to sleep.

Marbe2 · Dec 26, 2022

I have walked the CF in Winter, Feb and March. The weather ranged from 75 F in Pamplona to blizzard conditions two days out of it. We delayed a day in Puente La Reina. Leaving Astorga we encountered a fierce 75 km wind all the way to Rabanal del Camino with consistent sleet. Next morning we had to wait in Foncebadon for the plows to clear the road before walking to El Acebo. Most hikers stayed on the road as there was too much snow on the paths all the way down to Molineseca. The next several days were clear and sunny including our ascent to O’Cebreiro. Though the trail was open, the path from La Faba up to the top was knee deep snow for at least a third of way. It was slow going.

Now, I carried about 4kgs of clothing. Everything else I wore. I had arain/snow system which included a pair of rain pant and a rain/hooded poncho ( which functioned as a windbreaker as well) My vasque hiking shoes (not boots) were not waterproof, nor were they leather, but they held up well. .
I also wore a thin wicker sock and a winter sock. If we were going through a wet area then I put a thin plastic bag around my socks. My feet stayed warm even though my shoes got wet, but dried each night. However, our accommodations had sufficient heat. I had a winter hat, a baseball cap, a light balaclava, light weight plastic construction eye protectors which came in very handy when the sleet was hitting my eyes during a 75 mile headwind. Hiking poles, silk goves and mittens. As many have mentioned layer your clothing. A fleece zipper jacket , apair of pants, and a Patagonia lite weight base layer system were also part of my attire. Each camino conditions will vary, so flexible layering is key!

You will be hikng through manytowns and cities. Help on the CF is usually a taxi ride away accept in extraordinary weather conditions. You will not be, fot the most part in exteme mountain conditions. Call ahead and confirm your accommodations are open. Sometimes they close In bad weather.

In the 34liter bag I carried a 3 season sleeping bag, an emergency bag, a couple of lite patagonia LS shirts and an additional patagonia base layer pants (which I wore to bed) two sets of socks,two under pants, meds and IPad.

Former member 104145 · Dec 26, 2022

When preparing for The Field we would only pack what we needed, throw out half of it and then it would only be grub and ammunition.

He should visit his barber before departure and leave the requirement for shampoo and conditioner on the barber shop floor, by the time he returns, his hair will be two inches long again. Also, leave the razor behind, if he doesn't already have a beard, he'll have a fine start of one when he returns.

What you need and what you want are two different things.

What he will need;

1 Fleece Jumper
2 T Shirts
2 Pairs of Underpants (Step Ones are excellent at preventing inner thigh scurge)
1 Pair of Shorts
1 Pair of Trousers/Shorts convertibles
3 Pair of Socks (change socks and dust feet half way in the day)
1 Pair of Walking Boots or Shoes
1 Pair of Walking Sandals
1 Set of Rain Gear
1 Good Umbrella
1 Hat (if he wears one)
1 Pair of Speedos

1 Something to sleep in

1 Bar of Carbolic or Coal Tar Soap (Lifebouy)
1 Bar of Washing Soap (Sunlight)
1 Microfibre Towel Large
1 Tube of Toothpaste (half full)
1 Toothbrush and Floss
1 Prophylactic (you never know)
10 Clothes Pegs
10 Nappy Safety Pins (to hang your washing on your pack)
1 Small Wet Wipes for when you're caught short
6 Zip Loc Bags to prevent valuables (credential, passport) from getting wet

1 Housewife (sewing kit)
1 First Aid Kit (plasters, adhesive dressings, ointment, salve, disinfectant, anti-biotic powder)
1 Foot Powder
1 .5 Litre Water Bottle
1 Bum Bag/Fanny Pack

1 Guide Book or the ability to make friends with someone that has a guide book

What he might want;
1 Phone c/w charger
1 Tablet c/w charger
1 Head Lamp
1 Hoop (just in case he meets anyone that would require him to jump through a hoop)
1 Handle (just in case he needs to Fly off the Handle)
1 Conclusion (if one has to jump to a conclusion, it is preferable to have a conclusion close to hand)
1 Ball of String
1 Deck of Cards (you never know when a game of Don, Hearts, A 110 or Lives might happen)
and finally and I can not stress this enough;

1 Good Attitude
1 Friendly Disposition

On getting into the Albergue, first shower and change clothes, wash clothes and hang to dry. If they are not dry and the next day is good, safety pin them to your pack to dry as you walk. If the next day is to be wet put them into a plastic bag and take them into the sleeping bag to warm them up and change into the damp ones and hit the road immediately. Keep a set of clothes dry to change into when you're finished walking for the day. Sitting in wet clothes in the evening will wreck you. If the boots are wet, ask in the bars for old newspapers to dry the boots. Though, in this day and age, newspaper might be in short supply
Everyone here is advising you and you not going anywhere. You're just going to send him on his way with a pat on the back telling him he'll be grand, the Camino will provide, aren't ye?

Kerrnell · Dec 27, 2022

JulioCesarSalad said:
Yup, if you follow the lighter pack link it subtracts the weight of worn clothes and water, bringing it down to 22 pounds. I would still like some feedback on what may be necessary or not

https://lighterpack.com/r/22gj61

Reduce the clothes to half. We only carry one set. One on, one off. Post everything for the after holiday to Ivar. I carry around 8kgs total.

Former member 92300 · Dec 27, 2022

Liam the Barber said:
What you need and what you want are two different things.

What he will need;

1 Good Umbrella
1 Pair of Speedos

1 Something to sleep in

1 Bar of Carbolic or Coal Tar Soap (Lifebouy)
1 Bar of Washing Soap (Sunlight)
10 Clothes Pegs
1 Small Wet Wipes for when you're caught short

1 Housewife (sewing kit)
1 First Aid Kit (plasters, adhesive dressings, ointment, salve, disinfectant, anti-biotic powder)
1 Foot Powder
1 Ball of String
1 Deck of Cards (you never know when a game of Don, Hearts, A 110 or Lives might happen)
and finally and I can not stress this enough;

Even your list has some items I would consider "want" and not "need"

Speedo and Umbrella definitely optional.
You can sleep in your clean day clothes - so sleepwear is optional (but please don't go naked in a dorm lol)
Again - 1 soap for EVERYTHING including hair, body, laundry
10 clothes pegs? Well - you could easily go with half of that. Or better yet - multpurpose your safety pins - I used safety pins to drain blisters (sanitized them first), pin clothes to bag, AND to hang clothes on clothes lines.
Yes to toilet paper for emergencies - but wet wipes are optional. Being wet - they end up weighing more.
Sewing kit isn't needed and I wouldn't ever thread my blisters - and instead of sewing needles the safety pins can drain the blisters. See above.
Foot powder - well - men seem to "need" it more than women - but I have no need for foot powder
Ball of string isn't needed either. If I need to fix something, there are plenty of stores.
Deck of cards is certainly optional. But of course if it adds to entertainment, then fine. But I just talked to other pilgrims.

dick bird · Dec 27, 2022

jeanineonthecamino said:
Even your list has some items I would consider "want" and not "need"

Speedo and Umbrella definitely optional.
You can sleep in your clean day clothes - so sleepwear is optional (but please don't go naked in a dorm lol)
Again - 1 soap for EVERYTHING including hair, body, laundry
10 clothes pegs? Well - you could easily go with half of that. Or better yet - multpurpose your safety pins - I used safety pins to drain blisters (sanitized them first), pin clothes to bag, AND to hang clothes on clothes lines.
Yes to toilet paper for emergencies - but wet wipes are optional. Being wet - they end up weighing more.
Sewing kit isn't needed and I wouldn't ever thread my blisters - and instead of sewing needles the safety pins can drain the blisters. See above.
Foot powder - well - men seem to "need" it more than women - but I have no need for foot powder
Ball of string isn't needed either. If I need to fix something, there are plenty of stores.
Deck of cards is certainly optional. But of course if it adds to entertainment, then fine. But I just talked to other pilgrims.

Wet wipes do not biodegrade.

JulioCesarSalad · Dec 27, 2022

This thread has obviously run its course and the past couple days of comments have not been productive. I'm gonna ask the moderators to lock it

Former member 92300 · Dec 28, 2022

dick bird said:
Wet wipes do not biodegrade.

Yep - another point against wet wipes. Of course - I prefer people pack out their TP and wipes either way... bring an extra baggie for trash.

Kanga · Dec 28, 2022

Closed at the request of the original poster, who considers his question has been answered and the thread is no longer useful. Anyone who is interested in packing for a winter camino might find these threads helpful and, of course, anyone is welcome to start a new thread with their questions.

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Shakedown request: February on the Camino Frances, 35 pounds current weight

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