- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2015-2023 walked all or part of CF 11 times
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that depends on how high up the window is, and what's down below.
At my house, where pilgrims sleep on the ground floor, a window left open means the room fills up with flies and other insects once the sun gets high.
Windows on higher floors don't usually have those issues, but sometimes the alley down below has a full garbage bin, or a collection of stray cats or dogs creating fragrances.
It doesn't really matter what you do with your windows, but lower the blind or close the drapes if they are there and accessible.
Yes, I always opt for a window open if possible. But I'm not sure how leaving the window open when I depart would help with airflow if the cleaner is closing it before the next occupant arrives, which could be a few hours?My general impression has been that housekeeping opens the window while cleaning the room, but then, likely closes the window(s) when they are finished cleaning…15-20 mnutes. Many of the windows are small and there is not always a lot of airflow. So, to help the next pilgrim out might we leave a window open when we depart so there is more opportunity for fresh air exchange?
Most of us pilgrims are out of the rooms rather early (relative to non pilgrims). It may be as much as two hours or more before housekeeping gets to that room. In the meantime, the room without any pilgrims in it will have been receiving fresh air for sometime.Yes, I always opt for a window open if possible. But I'm not sure how leaving the window open when I depart would help with airflow if the cleaner is closing it before the next occupant arrives, which could be a few hours?
I agree, weather permitting.Keeping room cool is a good idea but leaving a room unattended with an open window can lead to a lot of water damage if it rains. I deal with this in my work and even a poorly shut window, not locked and just ever slightly ajar, can let in a lot of water.
??? I'm unclear as to how this statement relates at all to the OP's post.arguing that a window should be open just because Dr. Fauci says so isn't a good argument.
My suggestion to leave the windows open is based upon science …WHO …May I respectfully say that you are imparting your cultural beliefs onto a country where they have different ones? If the norm in Europe and specifically Spain is to close the window, then close the window. If after a year of Covid the cultural norm hasn't shifted, then it is not going to and arguing that a window should be open just because Dr. Fauci says so isn't a good argument, any more than trying to change dinner hours.
Thanks for telling what those outside blinds are called @KangaI love the Spanish persianas - fabulous for security, keeping out the heat and for privacy. ———-
We had something similar when I lived in Europe and in Florida but they were called Rouladen (?Rolladen). Not sure the purpose in Europe but Florida it was a combination of keeping out heat and protecting windows during hurricanesThanks for telling what those outside blinds are called @Kanga
I hadn’t realised it had a specific name, so I had to look it up.
Just in case anyone hadn’t heard the term before - here’s the definition I brought up.
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Many Spanish homes are fitted with outside roller blinds that can be dropped from inside the house. In Spain these are called persianas. The main object is to keep the house cool, and you will see many spanish houses with their persianas shut during the heat of the day.
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Im always learning something new on this forum.
they were called Rouladen (?Rolladen)
Many europeans on farms know exactly when the optimal time is to reduce unwanted pests. While living abroad, I learned their methods and rationals. I am certainly not faulting the maids or criticizing anyones culture. I am asking everone, from every culture, while walking caminos, if possible, when you leave your room, use common sense, and if weather and conditions permits, leave the windows open a bit
just a few short remarks from this European:
Rouladen is a meat dish - yummy, btw. Rollladen or Rollos is the name for the roller shudders.
It is not about fresh air, it is about Covid-19 particles in the air in a room where people stay. A standard way to assess this is measuring the carbon dioxide content, CO-2 expressed in ppm. From another thread:But really, do we need to talk and worry about this? A bit more overthinking I suspect.
Oooooohhh yesss, that is yummy, too!Sorry, not relevant(?) for this thread, just a small "cultural" remark: In my part of Europe 'roulade' normally refers to a cake made with a thin layer of dough rolled around different kinds of filling
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That’s an awfully large interval. It’s either well under or way over the limit. Willing to bet a small n.It is not about fresh air, it is about Covid-19 particles in the air in a room where people stay. A standard way to assess this is measuring the carbon dioxide content, CO-2 expressed in ppm. From another thread:
A pilot test carried out in albergues in Galicia to check the air quality of the rooms where pilgrims sleep, with continuous measurement of the level of carbon dioxide (CO-2), showed measurements ranging from 404 ppm (parts per million) of CO-2 to 3246 ppm, with a median of 1161.5 ppm at 00:00 hours, and from 405 ppm to 4632 ppm, with a median of 1294 ppm at 4:00 hours, indicating that the limits at which it is considered necessary to ventilate (800 ppm) are exceeded.
That’s why it’s an individual risk assessment about staying in a dorm room on Camino. That said, droplets settle within minutes to a few hours depending on the size. They aren’t going to hang forever in the air waiting for the next occupant in a single room. That person in that room can deal with concerns they might have by opening windows on checking in and going somewhere else for a short time period but it’s highly unlikely particles are in the air from the previous occupant at that point. If anything they are on surfaces. However, depending on the HVAC system and the room layout, air from the rest of the building may enter later. Window open throughout stay may help some, or may pull air into room from rest of building. Everything is a risk assessment these days and no matter what CO2 levels are it is reasonable to think the more people in the room the greater the risk—mitigated somewhat by lower occupancy.It is not about fresh air, it is about Covid-19 particles in the air in a room where people stay.
I think the owner of the property should probably be 'allowed' to determine if they want windows open or closed when the rooms are vacant. There could be 101 reasons to keep them closed when not occupied or otherwise.
Security, pests, keeping the place warm, cool, keeping weather out, prevailing winds/weather, ....
I deleted my post because I felt that it didn't contribute much to the discussion. You make a good point: Even if there are tiny virus-laden aerosols floating around in the room when an infected pilgrim leaves his or her room in the morning - where, based on currently accepted scientific studies, it is totally unknown whether there would ever be a high enough concentrated virus load to infect the next guest - they will have floated to a surface by the time the next guest arrives, and there is nothing left to breath in.And to reply to post that happened while I wrote this, the long time is hours for the fine aerosol. Not saying don’t open windows but people are forgetting these rooms will be empty at some point and the particles will drop to surfaces
In Leon, I left the windows open in my pensión only to find an hour later an unexpected rain storm came through and it was wet inside.We have just finished from Leon to SdC staying in private rooms in private albergues, and hotels in mainly nice weather. What I found was in the vast majority of cases the wndow(s) were closed when we arrived.
My general impression has been that housekeeping opens the window while cleaning the room, but then, likely closes the window(s) when they are finished cleaning…15-20 mnutes. Many of the windows are small and there is not always a lot of airflow. So, to help the next pilgrim out might we leave a window open when we depart so there is more opportunity for fresh air exchange?
That is what I would try to do. While someone is in the room, they may open or close the window as desired - that is why it is openable and closable.I would do what I have always done. Put the window and any curtains and shutters into the state in which I found them.
Reminds me of the night we spent in a mountain hut in France with about thirty French hikers, we opened all the windows so one of them got up and closed them, so one of us got up and opened them again so one of them................well you get the idea and so it went on. I seem to remember ending up asleep outside in the end.Window etiquette on the camino can be very fraught, as many an antipodean battling with a continental over if the windows should be open or closed overnight in the alburgue will attest. We are used to windows open for fresh cooling air, but in Spain they tend to keep them closed to shut out the heat and other nastys, it may be more productive to leave the door open to show that the room is empty and allow for airflow thatway.
I agree.May I respectfully say that you are imparting your cultural beliefs onto a country where they have different ones? If the norm in Europe and specifically Spain is to close the window, then close the window. If after a year of Covid the cultural norm hasn't shifted, then it is not going to and arguing that a window should be open just because Dr. Fauci says so isn't a good argument, any more than trying to change dinner hours.
I am so glad this thread exists! Covid is such a tricky topic: so many people disagree with doing x or y, and countries have acted at different rates and in different ways. I pointedly avoided talking about it with other pilgrims during our section of the CF this summer, partly out of embarrassment, which I’ll explain below. We were staying in private rooms throughout, for my own health reasons as well as because of Covid. But Covid was a regular topic between myself and my partner.
The ventilation issue bothers me for personal reasons. I’ll explain this in case it helps anyone else, or maybe casts light on how people such as myself are still affected. I both know that my situation is far from typical at this stage, and know that it isn’t unique. Although I’m double vaccinated and only at moderate risk myself, I live with someone who, even after three vaccines (two plus a booster last week) is still very much at risk, being currently unable to breathe well because of a lifelong condition (we’ve had a recent hospital trip: low oxygen). I’ve been doing everything I can to protect this person since March 2020. It’s difficult in the U.K. now because so many people think everything is ‘normal’. Maybe it needs to be, for most people. In my household, we are trying to judge what we do cautiously, waiting for case numbers to drop very low, when we may dare to venture into restaurants again. We shop online or at local farms, and wear FFP3 (N99) masks in any necessary public indoor spaces, (although in Spain we sometimes used N95 types instead because everyone else wore masks too). Maybe our approach is extreme, but for us it is sensible. I felt and still feel really uncomfortable about it: it’s a strangely taboo subject.
But I felt free when walking in Spain! And far safer than here in the U.K. What a relief it was, to be outdoors for so long! To be able to eat outside fairly easily everywhere we went. We didn’t eat indoors at any point, because of lack of ventilation, as well as because… well, when in Spain, it’s nice to eat outdoors if you’re from the U.K. where it’s usually too cold! (albergue’s where the only difficult places for meals; we were sad to miss some of this aspect of the Camino).
We aired our rooms as best we could before spending time in them. I was surprised that so many rooms had the windows or balcony doors shut, no ventilation, but hoped that perhaps this had been taken care of before we arrived. I based this partly on my twice-weekly conversations with people in Spain; they’ve often talked of how they’re aware of precautions such as ventilation. Another factor was that it’s been common in the U.K., until recently, that guest houses and hotels have early check-outs and late check-ins, to allow time for ventilation as well as for cleaning. Obviously this isn’t the case in Spain now, perhaps as others have said, because of mosquitos, heat, etc. We did enter one or two rather musty private rooms on the Camino, but they aired out fairly well.
I ask myself whether I’d behave differently if my partner and I lived alone. We would probably take more calculated risks; I certainly felt easier toward the start of our time in Spain than I did when I knew I was nearing our return home. We’d probably at least eat in some restaurants. I’d still ventilate the rooms, I think, because it just feels fresher given the situation. I’d presume other people would also see this as a courtesy, but equally, I know that across cultures, presumptions are dangerous things to have!
I find it odd, and concerning, that ventilation hasn’t been given a more central focus, at least in the U.K., I don’t know about the US or elsewhere. But Belgium issued a carbon dioxide mandate back in July 2021. I researched this stuff obsessively at various points during the first year of Covid (some of the links people have posted above, etc, I won’t bore you!). But good masks, and ventilation. It should be so simple.
It’s a miserable topic, isn’t it? I’m sorry if the tone of the above isn’t ideal, and I don’t mean to upset people who’ve made different decisions. I’ve previously felt unable to talk about this aspect of my Camino. And the topic of ventilation… it should always have been at the forefront of what we think of in the fight against Covid. If it hasn’t been central, that’s probably a failure of messaging and of policy from government authorities. Anyway… let’s hope it’s a redundant topic soon!
I think a good position. Look after yourself and don't presume to look after others without their permission.The suggestion has nothing to do with changing cultural norms, but with good health/hygiene practices. However, I would leave the room as I found it. While I am occupying the room I will open or close the window according to my comfort.
I think the best articulated posting dealing with health and also allows for the proprietors and their staff to look after the place as they deem fit.This re fine aerosol (spoiler: 3 hours): https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2004973
FWIW (not much) as a physician who did public health before retirement, if I were walking now (and everyone’s risk varies, mine are age and some recent heart issues and a need to get home quickly for family so I wouldn’t walk now) I would stay in a private room if I had risk factors, I’d be vaccinated, I would open the window on arrival (only if there’s no room vents or I could close vents) and because it’s cold and flu season I would wipe down common touch surfaces. Then I’d wash my hands and know I’ve done all I can do. If I was uncertain how long the room had been vacant I might leave for an hour or two—sightsee, shop, sit in the sun and make vitamin D. I’d wear a mask inside the common areas.
Thanks to the op for such an interesting topic
Buen (and healthy) Camino!
Must disagree….we have learned more since this article was published in April of 2020 that provide more direction from governments worldwide to the travel industry.I think the best articulated posting dealing with health and also allows for the proprietors and their staff to look after the place as they deem fit.
All hoping it will be that simple but anti-vaxers in my home country won’t be hermits… and we have no idea of what is to come with the next variants.As the Delta variant is highly contagious with a vial load 1,200 times the original, and any possible new variant most likely to be more contagious to compete with Delta, and assuming the current vaccines are good "enough?" against any variant in the next few years, soon there will only be 2 types of people walking the Camino:
1. Those effectively vaccinated (ie it worked for them)
2. Those that have contracted COVID and are no longer contagious (noting the time to be contagious is between ~~ 10 - 20 days).
There are probably anti-VAXer hermits, and people in poorer countries living in remote villages but they won't be walking a Camino.
So chill out for a few months, and then travel with ease.
We agree cross ventilation is the best option. What I do when I have two windows is to leave them a bit open…It will be sufficient in most cases for cross ventilation based upon the article I posted. When I do not, and have direct access to outside, I open whatever window there is, and the door for a few minutes, before lleaving, while we can monitor the room..depending on the location. If there is only a small window ( like in the bathroom)I I try and l leave it fairly wide during our visit, circumstances permitting, when we leave. I leave it to housekeeping to decide when to close it.To expand on my post after reading the article posted by @Marbe2, all situations in article depend on someone being ill—which isn’t a given (but I understand the concern). windows open in dorm rooms even I would agreed with while freezing to death. But windows open doesn’t create good ventilation. It must be windows or doors on opposite sides of the room, or an HVAC system to really move air but windows on one side open is better than no windows open at all—while people are in the room. Again, particles settle and once pilgrims are gone, no new particles are in the room air until more arrive. HVAC syste move air around to other rooms so can also be a potential risk depending on the filter, occupancy, air volume etc.
Hoping not to labour the point / slight humour, the odds are nearly all of them in your country will be soon or already exposed to the virus, had COVID or soon will get sick to various degrees, and no longer be contagious. I guess it is their choice to play Russian roulette and have a lower priority for health care when triage is necessary.but anti-vaxers in my home country won’t be hermits
You can only know for sure what you do. And you can only control yourself. Trying to do otherwise will create unnecessary anxiety. You know for sure the room is ventilated if you open the window then leave for whatever period makes you comfortable, and know that the virus does eventually settle—it doesn’t linger forever in the air. I wrote that to comfort you. do as you wish. Buen Camino.Must disagree….we have learned more since this article was published in April of 2020 that provide more direction from governments worldwide to the travel industry.
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