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No -- they were two completely separate Orders. The Hospitallers sort of still exist ...i.e. two sides of the same coin.
Not really -- and not sure where the "under cover" comes from !!It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.
The Hospitallers did set up many pilgrim hospitals on the Camino Francès, as well as seeking to provide protection for pilgrims ;
in Jerusalem
You do realise that the Templars are so called because they were established as guardians of Solomon's Temple - located somewhere around that neck of the woods - not necessarily the place that is called 'Jerusalem' today.
Solomon's Temple aka Temple Mount aka Mount Moriah - they all refer to the same thing.Oh dear. You do realize that the reference is to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
Do I get this right: The Templars travelled incognito and disguised as pilgrims from France and Germany over the Pyrenees to Santiago and from there through Portugal, over the Strait of Gibraltar to Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia, and Libya, to Egypt and I guess then to Jerusalem?
My first question would be: Where did they hid their swords and their knight's armors? In their pilgrim's satchels? Horses - I guess they did not hide them? They were pilgrims on horseback?
My second question would be: Why did they not join their comrade knights who travelled on ships from Italy to the Holy Land or on land through the Balkans as everybody else did?
And my third question - probably unanswerable because it is all hidden but: I guess at one point along this long journey they changed from Christian pilgrims to Muslim pilgrims, right? Because otherwise ... would the Muslim rulers in Iberia and North Africa have allowed them to travel through their empire?
Ah, I had already guessed that the Templars were in cahoots with the Almohad Caliphs and the Emirs and Whatnots. The Templars just smartly kept it a secret and left no trace for us in medieval documents.As to 'rulers', it is probable these were co-opted (if not established) by the Templars
So these images that we are presented with of Templar knights on a noble horse, with a mighty sword and a large shield painted with a red cross on it are wrong? We have to think of them more like Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan or even Mark Zuckerberg?On foot, they'd no doubt be lightly armed, but highly trained in the martial arts of those times
Ah, I had already guessed that the Templars were in cahoots with the Almohad Caliphs and the Emirs and Whatnots. They just smartly kept it a secret and left no trace for us in medieval documents.
What was the reason? Trade? Money? Smuggling?
So these images that we are presented with of Templar knights on a noble horse, with a mighty sword and a large shield painted with a red cross on it are wrong? We have to think of them more like Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan or even Mark Zuckerberg?
That could fall into the classification of 'lightly armed'.When you say "lightly armed" do you mean a wooden pilgrim staff?
Duly noted. :-/Theis my emotion free and expression free online discussion poker face.
No. The Templars were a Knightly Order, and presented themselves openly as Knights.I'd suggest that Templars tended to travel incognito, e.g. as pilgrims.
This rather academic book, translated to English might interest you.It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.
I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.
The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.
It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.
So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.
Oh @Tincatinker, you and your sense of humourto present an alternative here is the sort of errant nonsense so easily found on the internet https://www.franciscanmedia.org/st-anthony-messenger/april-2017/secrets-of-the-knights-templar/
Umberto Eco in his brilliant Lector in Fabula pointed out that irrational conspiracy theories all depend on a false notion that everything is secret.Secret indeed.
One of the first things I often do is look at who runs a website.For those interested in the Templiers/Hospitaliers, I recommend this link for some good background reading: https://knightstemplarorder.org/templar-order/templar-foundations/
The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram”It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.
I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.
The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.
It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.
So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.
The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram” gives an excellent history of the Camino, currently up to part 8. The following link will bring you to the part that deals with Knights Templar/Hospitaliers involvement with the camino. Their issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation to me.It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.
I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.
The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.
It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.
So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.
The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram”
The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram” gives an excellent history of the Camino, currently up to part 8. The following link will bring you to the part that deals with Knights Templar/Hospitaliers involvement with the camino. Their issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation to me.
The Scholarly Pilgrim - History of the Camino de Santiago: S1 E7 - Templars and Hospitallers on the Medieval Camino de Santiago on Apple Podcasts
Show The Scholarly Pilgrim - History of the Camino de Santiago, Ep S1 E7 - Templars and Hospitallers on the Medieval Camino de Santiago - 16 Jun 2023podcasts.apple.com
History rather than fantasy ...The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram” gives an excellent history of the Camino, currently up to part 8. The following link will bring you to the part that deals with Knights Templar/Hospitaliers involvement with the camino. Their issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation to me.
That is where the gold horde is, right? I think I saw it in a movie, or maybe book, so it must be true!You are obviously relying on some very interesting historical sources. What you may not realize is that they are still running the world from their underground bunker in Jerusalem
That's quite good.podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram”
A few holes in this theory, I´m afraid.It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.
I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.
The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.
It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.
So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.
People who build yomping great castles all over the landscape don´t need to travel in disguise. The Knights Templar were never a secret organisation - they had a very visible profile until they got the King of France offside. In fact, as a monk would not have been a good disguise since, until the Franciscans were formed, monks were discouraged from travel and only did so in groups or delegations.I'd suggest that Templars tended to travel incognito, e.g. as pilgrims.
Does look like a fairly strong Templar presence on the Portuguese Way to Rome though ...The German Wikipedia article has a map of the Templar sites (encomienda in Spanish) in Spain at the height of their economic power around the year 1300.
As you can see there wasn't much of a Templar presence along the Camino Francés. Most of it was in Aragon with Monzón as a major centre and in Portugal around Tomar.
View attachment 154684
I'd be curious to know whether this book sheds any light on the actual function of the Templar site in Ponferrada?This rather academic book, translated to English might interest you.
A few holes in this theory, I´m afraid.
- First hole - the Knights etc etc were founded in the wake of the crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries, by which time the pilgrimage was in full swing and the Codex Calextinus had already been written.
- The Camino Francés was an important trade route linking a chain of big cities from Santiago via Ponferrada through Léon, Burgos and Pamplona, capital of the Kingdom of Navarre which controlled a large area of France. There were colonies of French (or `Franks') all along it e.g. Estella. The pilgrims followed it because it was convenient. It was there even before the pilgrims, let alone the Knights Templar and Hospitalier.
People who build yomping great castles all over the landscape don´t need to travel in disguise. The Knights Templar were never a secret organisation - they had a very visible profile until they got the King of France offside. In fact, as a monk would not have been a good disguise since, until the Franciscans were formed, monks were discouraged from travel and only did so in groups or delegations.- If you were travelling to Egypt or Morocco or from France etc, why would you go via Santiago? It is not on the coast. It is not even on the way. You would take a boat from Marseille or somewhere else handily located on the Mediterranean, not risk a sea voyage around the Iberian peninsula through the Atlantic.
So is it possible? On the not very well hidden evidence (even I know all this without even having to look it up, but feel free to check), no. The Templars were a weird bunch, but they didn´t invent the pilgrimage to Santiago just to disguise whatever nefarious activities they might have been engaged in.
@Crosbie I followed your “source” with interest and curiosity. I was delighted to find the mixture of known historical facts and completely unsupported assertions that constitute so much of the “truth” available these days. For anyone stuck in a hospital bed as I am it really helps to pass the time. Have you read through to the bit where the Royal Alliance of Independent States traces it’s origins back to Atlantis? That is worth pursuing. However if you are hoping the Camino will bring you revelations of a mystic global network…. I feel the Camino may not be for you. Wherever you look you will not find it. That, the one proof there is that it is real1. The Templars (as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century if you know where to look, which is why they instigated the crusades, to bring to them much needed military assistance, to preserve their ability to guard Solomon's Temple and its environs.
2. The further projection of their power via military orders ('Knights') and consolidation of a gradually pervading 'communications network' (aka pilgrimage route) via key cities (whether pre-existing or created as a consequence) continued thereafter.
3. Templars and their agents were the original pilgrims. They would have travelled in a manner least likely to attract unwanted attention, and least likely to disturb the sensibilities of any communities they travelled through. Conversely, if it was desired to instill fear and submission, then the image of a supreme warrior may have been appropriate.
The mission of The Templars is secret, as is the full extent of their power. A visible profile in some respects does not conflict with this.
4. The routes are not A to B, but 'join the dots', or perhaps as in 'all roads lead to Rome'. The Templars' networks were about pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown. It wasn't simply about getting from one end of Europe to the other as fast as possible. Santiago could well have simply been an early commanderie, on the route from the Basques via Portugal and North Africa.
Sorry, I don´t know where to look. It would be nice if you could tell us. The name Templars is generally believed to be derived from the fact that they protected the so-called Temple Mount, presumed site of Solomon´s Temple. They were established in 1119 (a precise date and not the vague 9th, or circa 10th) and were initially stationed in the Al Aqsa mosque. The First Crusade had captured Jerusalem from the Fatimid Caliphate in 1099. It is highly unlikely that prior to then, the Fatimid caliphate would have tolerated the presence of a bunch of Christian knights attempting to defend the Temple of Solomon and its environs and even less likely that local bandits and warlords would have. The establishment of the order is a matter of established historical record. The Templars emphatically did not create the trade routes across the north of Spain, even if they used them - in fact, they probably did, everyone else did. The Templars were not the ´original pilgrims´. Christian pilgrimage dates back to Classical times (well before the 9th century). There was absolutely nothing to stop any member of the order climbing on his horse and going where he wanted, with or without his armour and weapons, no questions asked, just another bloke on a horse. Their power was based on wealth, as was the power of the monasteries. They did not have to do anything clandestine to acquire or protect this wealth, they were the recipients of vast charitable bequests and patronage and the beneficiaries of some very clever financial instruments and accounting procedure. The Templars were about money, lots of it. And it was ultimately money that destroyed them - Philip IV of France owed them money and couldn´t pay so he got them disbanded.if you know where to look,
@Crosbie I followed your “source” with interest and curiosity. I was delighted to find the mixture of known historical facts and completely unsupported assertions that constitute so much of the “truth” available these days. For anyone stuck in a hospital bed as I am it really helps to pass the time. Have you read through to the bit where the Royal Alliance of Independent States traces it’s origins back to Atlantis? That is worth pursuing. However if you are hoping the Camino will bring you revelations of a mystic global network…. I feel the Camino may not be for you. Wherever you look you will not find it. That, the one proof there is that it is real
The Crown? You mean: ""The Government""? What on earth does this mean? It appears to be severely off kilter but I am sure you have an explanation.The Templars' networks were about pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown
That wasn't what we were told when we visited the castle. Certainly the vast bulk of the castle is from a later date. But I distinctly remember reading in the signage that the part of the castle in the picture below was what remained of the original Templar castle.....the fact that there is nothing left from the Templars during their time there.
The only bit from the time of the Templar's presence in Ponferrada are some foundation stones at the bottom of one of the towers. Everything else that one sees dates from later periods.
You are exemplar, whatever about Templar...I just have to share this. I don't even know how I found it but it is just what anyone would want to read who is seriously interested in the specific topic of Templar Order and Camino Francés in particular and ways to Santiago more generally. I may be the only interested person on this forum though ... It's in French.
It is stored on a website called www.templiers.net. This website appears to have an enormous amount of links to historical documents. The real stuff. And also to studies that deserve this name. Plenty of sources are indicated and by that I mean original historical sources and not links to yet another website labelled ""source"". That's my initial impression, I have not yet explored it much.
The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).
My work here is done.
Fantastic site, Kathar1na. The links to "read more" are broken, with 404 error messages. Easy enough to fix as a reader: just delete the extraneous beginning URL, which is doubled in the site's code (https://www.templiers.net/), and voila - success. Lots of great material, thank youI just have to share this. I don't even know how I found it but it is just what anyone would want to read who is seriously interested in the specific topic of Templar Order and Camino Francés in particular and ways to Santiago more generally. I may be the only interested person on this forum though ... It's in French.
It is stored on a website called www.templiers.net. This website appears to have an enormous amount of links to historical documents. The real stuff. And also to studies that deserve this name. Plenty of sources are indicated and by that I mean original historical sources and not links to yet another website labelled ""source"". That's my initial impression, I have not yet explored it much.
The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).
My work here is done.
Sorry, but this is ahistoral. Some people claim them to date back to Egypt and the Pyramids.1. The Templars (as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century if you know where to look, which is why they instigated the crusades, to bring to them much needed military assistance, to preserve their ability to guard Solomon's Temple and its environs.
Makes no sense, sorry.2. The further projection of their power via military orders ('Knights') and consolidation of a gradually pervading 'communications network' (aka pilgrimage route) via key cities (whether pre-existing or created as a consequence) continued thereafter.
This is straightforwardly false.3. Templars and their agents were the original pilgrims.
Complete nonsense sorry. Have you even met Tomás ??They would have travelled in a manner least likely to attract unwanted attention, and least likely to disturb the sensibilities of any communities they travelled through.
And this is just paranoid.Conversely, if it was desired to instill fear and submission
What a load of rubbish !!The mission of The Templars is secret, as is the full extent of their power.
Are you a devotee of Dan Brown's ?pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown.
OK just for fun, I'll quote a little of the earliest pilgrim journal that I have in my collection. Turn of the 4th and 5th Centuries, and a pilgrimage to Mount Sinai :The earliest Christian Pilgrimage routes predate the Templars by hundreds of years, if not more than a thousand.
The Templars reworked the vast gold mining area south of Ponferrada at Las Medulas, once the largest in the Roman Empire. Many sources claim that at the beginning of the 12th century, the Templar knights took possession of the fortress and reinforced and extended it to use it as an inhabitable palace and for protection, on the route of the pilgrims on the way to Santiago de Compostela.I'd be curious to know whether this book sheds any light on the actual function of the Templar site in Ponferrada?
My understanding is that Ponferrada was an encomienda which means an economic-administrative centre for managing their business interests and the income from their properties in the area - income that was then transferred to the Holy Land for the Order's financial and economic needs there. And not a garrison where knights in armour were galloping about and going on daily patrol up and down the Camino?
I had a look at the map for Al-Andalus. When the Templar order received the Ponferrada site as a donation in 1178, the border with the Muslim part of Spain was already far away to the south; surely there was no need for military protection from a potential aggressor in the Ponferrada area?
View attachment 154697
Serious question: Templars or no Templars, is there any credible indication that mining at the Medulas gold mines was restarted in the High Middle Ages (1000-1350) after it had ended over a thousand years earlier? Or is that yet another myth of Templars and their gold?The Templars reworked the vast gold mining area south of Ponferrada at Las Medulas
The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).
That was merely a link to background reading material - it is not my 'source' (even in part).I followed your “source” with interest and curiosity.
Yep, this game can be played endlessly. Pick a quote from somewhere, interpret it in a specific way, and voilà, you have proven your point. Wait for a rebuttal and start your game moves again. I am rarely playing though these days and try to distance myself from these forum games."Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus."
One should understand the difference between 'pilgrim' as 'a foreign traveller, passing through' and 'an independent person embarked upon a personal spiritual/religious journey'. The former are therefore in service, e.g. as emissariess of the Templiers, or the organisation that formed them in the 9th century.
It was precisely this communications network (of emissaries) that enabled a relatively prompt discovery and response to the desecration of Solomon's Temple in the 9th century - previously considered impregnable. The first responders were thus the first Templars. During and/or after the crusades, the Knights Templar would have arisen.
But he also says that on the one hand, contemporary historians are reluctant to study the Templars, distanced by an entire body of esoteric literature whose 'fantasy is not even good quality fantasy.'
https://knightstemplarorder.org/templar-order/templar-foundations/*Access to the Temple of Solomon* – The prominent 19th century British Barrister and historian, Charles Addison, documented that the Templar Order was founded as follows:
“Nine Noble Knights formed a holy brotherhood in arms, and entered into
a solemn pact”, inspired by “the religious and military fervour of the
day, and animated by the sacredness of the cause to which they had
devoted their swords”.
King Baldwin II of Jerusalem then “granted them a place of habitation
within the sacred inclosure of the Temple on Mount Moriah”.
Yep, this game can be played endlessly. Pick a quote from somewhere, interpret it in a specific way, and voilà, you have proven your point.
Did you see my question to you in post #52 whether there is any credible indication that mining at the Medulas gold mines was restarted in the High Middle Ages (1000-1350) after it had ended over a thousand years earlier?Legend is that after their last stand at the Castle of Cornatel in the Medulas, most the Templars in Spain managed to flee to Portugal where they were absorbed into local chapters. Some were given land and were allowed to continue their activities, many under the Knights of Christ.
The CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.
I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.
The second paragraph states :"Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus."
Indeed, the very cause of the destruction of the Order was its wealth and that of its Friars/Knights.
JRR Tolkien wrote fiction. Not history.JRR Tolkien is pretty good quality. Here's where he got the idea for 'Nine mortal men doomed to die':
This is extremely misleading !!
The Templars had no strict vow of poverty, unlike the Franciscans and the Hospitallers.
Indeed, the very cause of the destruction of the Order was its wealth and that of its Friars/Knights.
Beaucoup d'érudits ont eu tendance à broder à partir de représentations romantiques des ordres militaires et du pèlerinage, mais sans s'appuyer sur la moindre source médiévale.
This pretty much means that notions linking these military Orders with Pilgrimage as such are "romantic" fables having no basis in any Mediaeval sources.
i.e. Pure fantasy.
Contrairement à ce que l'on peut lire dans l'érudition locale, il n'y avait pas « d'itinéraires templiers » où les pèlerins se rendraient « d'étape templière en étape templière. »
i.e. contrary to various modern fantasies, there were no "templar routes" for pilgrims.
D'abord parce que ce que l'on appelle un « chemin de pèlerinage » est en réalité un écheveau de chemins possibles.
What some call a Pilgrimage Way was in fact a complex network of multiple routes leading to this Shrine or that.
And so on ...
As I suggested earlier, the Knights Templar were primarily associated with the Way to Jerusalem and the Holy Land.
JRR Tolkien wrote fiction. Not history.
Most of us like to distinguish between the two.
I think this is fundamentally the premise of this thread.mythology trumps history
In fact, the Templars had their name from the (now almost entirely destroyed) Temple in Paris, which was their administrative headquarters (their military headquarters was elsewhere in France).The significance of Jerusalem/The Holy Land is entirely due to Solomon's Temple
Not really.I think this [Mythology trumps history] is fundamentally the premise of this thread.
Here’s a connection to get you started: The ‘mill’ of Hamlet’s Mill is depicted in the Templar Cross, as is the 'ring' in ‘one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them’.All that said, I do not see what connection the book Hamlet's Mill might possibly have with the Knights Templar. Let alone JRR Tolkien. I love imagination...it fails me here.
Moderator's note: We are drifting inexorably away from the original subject of the thread into topics of no real relevance to the camino e.g. J.R.R.Tolkien´s inspiration for his 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy. Please keep to the subject of the thread or we shall have to close it.Here’s a connection to get you started: The ‘mill’ of Hamlet’s Mill is depicted in the Templar Cross, as is the 'ring' in ‘one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them’.
Interesting story on the Smithonian's website about the review for a book about the history of cod fishing. I looked for a passage about faked historical documents but could not find anything. Then it dawned on me that you were referring to the passage where it says that "cod do find lots to eat, swimming with their huge mouths open, ingesting whatever goes in. In 1994 a Dutch fisherman caught a cod with a set of dentures in its belly."Poor Cod (the fish that changed the world) will swallow anything.
Even with written docs one must consider the source. Just because it’s old does not make it reliable.
It was a response to JabbaPapa's use of "Codswallop".Interesting story on the Smithonian's website about the review for a book about the history of cod fishing. I looked for a passage about faked historical documents but could not find anything. Then it dawned on me that you were referring to the passage where it says that "cod do find lots to eat, swimming with their huge mouths open, ingesting whatever goes in. In 1994 a Dutch fisherman caught a cod with a set of dentures in its belly."
A very erudite response, and thank you !!It was a response to JabbaPapa's use of "Codswallop".
While I wonder if the OPs fantasy and fiction isn't just chumming the water, have we taken the bait - hook, line and sinker?
PS:
Kathar1na: I greatly appreciate the factual accuracy of your comments and input on this forum.
The first half of the 12th century is indeed characterized by a development of pilgrimages which is more generally part of a multiplication of exchanges and communications. Even if the road to Jerusalem was already heavily used before 1098, the first crusade opened the doors of the Holy Land to new flows of pilgrims. Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus. The influx of pilgrims was then such that it led to the writing of an exceptional work, around 1130, the Pilgrim's Guide to Saint Jacques. Since the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830,
Thanks, @Tincatinker. Thanks. Whatever was ailing you has focussed your mind.OK, @Crosbie. I think you are a fantasist, a troll or perhaps delusional. You seem to be stringing together a few facts, some random assertions and little else to create an alternative reality based on little other than a need for it to exist. Alternatively, you have some knowledge that you are unwilling to share but only to hint at. I’ve known priests and shaman who practiced in that manner.
You suggest that the Templar existed long before any record of them in history. You suggest that they were a secretive organization with a secret mission to carry out secret tasks secretively.
I have two questions. What was it that they we’re doing that was such that it had to remain secret?
If it was such a secret how come you know about it and yet historians down the centuries of recorded time have remained in ignorance?
One final thought. If their purpose was to protect and preserve the Temple of Solomon they made a pretty shite job of it really didn’t they. It’s been razed three times in recorded history and remains occupied and disputed.
The desecration of Solomon's Temple occurred just before 'the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830', and these relics were no doubt some of the damaged remains, especially of the Ark of the Covenant.
Are you sure you want to veer off the subject of pilgrimage routes, and jeopardise the future of this thread?I have two questions. What was it that they we’re doing that was such that it had to remain secret?
If it was such a secret how come you know about it and yet historians down the centuries of recorded time have remained in ignorance?
One final thought. If their purpose was to protect and preserve the Temple of Solomon they made a pretty shite job of it really didn’t they. It’s been razed three times in recorded history and remains occupied and disputed.
Can you remind us what that original question was supposed to be? I don't see any question in the OP.That is a pretty good answer to my original question
Can you remind us what that original question was supposed to be? I don't see any question in the OP.
I am curious, what does 'wrt' mean?
That is an extraordinary statement to make. Far from 'no doubt', there is absolutely no reason or evidence for it.'the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830', and these relics were no doubt some of the damaged remains, especially of the Ark of the Covenant.
So, haven't we established that there was some coincidence in time and place, and that's about all the connection that is supported by any evidence?Is there a connection between the Templiers/Hospitaliers and the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage/routes?
Exactly. Why do you want to pursue the fiction?Alrighty then, back to the fiction, that is so despised...
I am very pleased to be able to understand and explain this small piece of the thread - it means "with respect to".what does 'wrt' mean?
Exactly. Why do you want to pursue the fiction?
Or great fiction as if it were truth.to impart great truths in the form of fiction.
What a line to end on!I usually think, sure, the sun could perhaps rise in the west tomorrow morning.
This may be because at that time, as everyone knew, the world was flat.As you may therefore already know, at the time Solomon's Temple was being built, The Sun rose in the West.
It may have seemed flat from the perspective of a human being, just as it may have seemed that The Sun rotated about The Earth.This may be because at that time, as everyone knew, the world was flat.
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