Templiers/Hospitaliers wrt the CdS pilgrimage?

[Crosbie]

It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.

 

[Tincatinker]

You are obviously relying on some very interesting historical sources. What you may not realize is that they are still running the world from their underground bunker in Jerusalem

 

[JabbaPapa]

The Hospitallers did set up many pilgrim hospitals on the Camino Francès, as well as seeking to provide protection for pilgrims ; the presence of the Templars is more accidental on the Camino, though some of their locations were coincidentally found there.

i.e. two sides of the same coin.

No -- they were two completely separate Orders. The Hospitallers sort of still exist ...

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

Not really -- and not sure where the "under cover" comes from !!

The Templars did have a stronger presence on the Way to Jerusalem, and on some of the various Ways in France.

 

[Crosbie]

The Hospitallers did set up many pilgrim hospitals on the Camino Francès, as well as seeking to provide protection for pilgrims ;

Thanks. Very interesting to know that the Hospitaliers did provide refuges/stations along the route.

I'd suggest that Templars tended to travel incognito, e.g. as pilgrims. And that the 'hospitals' may also have been presented as altruistic/religious missions, but were precisely intended to protect the former.

 

[Crosbie]

in Jerusalem

You do realise that the Templars are so called because they were established as guardians of Solomon's Temple - located somewhere around that neck of the woods - not necessarily the place that is called 'Jerusalem' today.

 

[Kathar1na]

Well, welcome to the forum, @Crosbie. New input for a stimulating discussion is always welcome. I am trying to wrap my head around your suggestion. Do I get this right: The Templars travelled incognito and disguised as pilgrims from France and Germany over the Pyrenees to Santiago and from there through Portugal, over the Strait of Gibraltar to Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia, and Libya, to Egypt and I guess then to Jerusalem? In the 10th and 11th century when pilgrimages in Europe blossomed and were in full swing?

How very interesting.

My first question would be: Where did they hid their swords and their knight's armors? In their pilgrim's satchels? Horses - I guess they did not hide them? They were pilgrims on horseback?

My second question would be: Why did they not join their comrade knights who travelled on ships from Italy to the Holy Land or on land through the Balkans as everybody else did?

And my third question - probably unanswerable because it is all hidden but: I guess at one point along this long journey they changed from Christian pilgrims to Muslim pilgrims, right? Because otherwise ... would the Muslim rulers in Iberia and North Africa have allowed them to travel through their empire?

 

[Tincatinker]

Oh dear. You do realize that the reference is to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

You do realise that the Templars are so called because they were established as guardians of Solomon's Temple - located somewhere around that neck of the woods - not necessarily the place that is called 'Jerusalem' today.

 

[Crosbie]

Oh dear. You do realize that the reference is to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

Solomon's Temple aka Temple Mount aka Mount Moriah - they all refer to the same thing.

 

[Crosbie]

Do I get this right: The Templars travelled incognito and disguised as pilgrims from France and Germany over the Pyrenees to Santiago and from there through Portugal, over the Strait of Gibraltar to Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia, and Libya, to Egypt and I guess then to Jerusalem?

And vice versa.

My first question would be: Where did they hid their swords and their knight's armors? In their pilgrim's satchels? Horses - I guess they did not hide them? They were pilgrims on horseback?

On foot, they'd no doubt be lightly armed, but highly trained in the martial arts of those times.

My second question would be: Why did they not join their comrade knights who travelled on ships from Italy to the Holy Land or on land through the Balkans as everybody else did?

The Hospitaliers/Templiers needed a network that would permeate Europe, and thus via multiple routes.

And my third question - probably unanswerable because it is all hidden but: I guess at one point along this long journey they changed from Christian pilgrims to Muslim pilgrims, right? Because otherwise ... would the Muslim rulers in Iberia and North Africa have allowed them to travel through their empire?

One need not necessarily be overtly religious to be a pilgrim, but of course, mere pilgrims would not draw attention to themselves, by appearing out of place.

As to 'rulers', it is probable these were co-opted (if not established) by the Templars.

 

[Kathar1na]

As to 'rulers', it is probable these were co-opted (if not established) by the Templars

Ah, I had already guessed that the Templars were in cahoots with the Almohad Caliphs and the Emirs and Whatnots. The Templars just smartly kept it a secret and left no trace for us in medieval documents.

What was the reason? Trade? Banking? Smuggling?

On foot, they'd no doubt be lightly armed, but highly trained in the martial arts of those times

So these images that we are presented with of Templar knights on a noble horse, with a mighty sword and a large shield painted with a red cross on it are wrong? We have to think of them more like Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan or even Mark Zuckerberg?

When you say "lightly armed" do you mean a wooden pilgrim staff? Or a big stone in their pilgrim's scrip to use it as a weapon that you could swing at an adversary? Aha, stone! Stone from home! Geddit?

 

[Crosbie]

Ah, I had already guessed that the Templars were in cahoots with the Almohad Caliphs and the Emirs and Whatnots. They just smartly kept it a secret and left no trace for us in medieval documents.

Secret indeed.

What was the reason? Trade? Money? Smuggling?

No doubt those who cooperated were richly rewarded.

So these images that we are presented with of Templar knights on a noble horse, with a mighty sword and a large shield painted with a red cross on it are wrong? We have to think of them more like Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan or even Mark Zuckerberg?

Equipped appropriate to the situation and means of travel. Sometimes, on horse back, sometimes on foot. And operatives wouldn't necessarily need to be masters of all modes of operation.

When you say "lightly armed" do you mean a wooden pilgrim staff?

That could fall into the classification of 'lightly armed'.

 

[Kathar1na]

The is my emotion free and expression free online discussion poker face.

 

[Crosbie]

The is my emotion free and expression free online discussion poker face.

Duly noted. :-/

 

[Kathar1na]

Last question: troll, sea lion, joker or from another universe? And I don't mean it in a derogatory sense, just another kind of universe where everyone is an expert and the experts don't know a thing and where the guidelines and expertise and experience of scholarly study and scientific rigour are suspended.

 

[Tincatinker]

I’ve assumed that the OP gleaned his information from the excellent and erudite writings of Paul Christopher https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/179886/the-templar-conspiracy-by-christopher-paul/9780241951200

to present an alternative here is the sort of errant nonsense so easily found on the internet https://www.franciscanmedia.org/st-anthony-messenger/april-2017/secrets-of-the-knights-templar/

 

[Crosbie]

For those interested in the Templiers/Hospitaliers, I recommend this link for some good background reading: https://knightstemplarorder.org/templar-order/templar-foundations/

I'm interested to hear from those who would support a connection between the Santiago de Compostela pilgrimage routes and the Templiers/Hospitaliers - as opposed to those who would ridicule it.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I'd suggest that Templars tended to travel incognito, e.g. as pilgrims.

No. The Templars were a Knightly Order, and presented themselves openly as Knights.

 

[sillydoll]

It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.

This rather academic book, translated to English might interest you.

 

[Kathar1na]

to present an alternative here is the sort of errant nonsense so easily found on the internet https://www.franciscanmedia.org/st-anthony-messenger/april-2017/secrets-of-the-knights-templar/

Oh @Tincatinker, you and your sense of humour . I nearly did not click on the link, based on your description. Glad I did. It is a good overview, written in an entertaining style and only 10 pages. Recommended for anyone with a serious interest who wants to freshen up their knowledge.

For the same reason, I read through The Templars in France: Between History, Heritage, and Memory, 37 pages, today. There is a general introduction which starts with the words "the Templars continue to fascinate [...] yet fiction has largely gained an upper hand over the historical reality". This started already in 1805 but snowballed in recent decades. The author also recognises that "as historians, we may easily be annoyed by this Templar mania, by the endless collection of absurdities that it often conveys".

But he also says that on the one hand, contemporary historians are reluctant to study the Templars, distanced by an entire body of esoteric literature whose 'fantasy is not even good quality fantasy.' On the other hand, the general public, unfamiliar with recent research and sometimes fearing that scholarship embodies an ‘official’ history that they consider biased, continues to give credence to works by storytellers and charlatans – who willingly deal with the subject of the Temple, but through the prism of secrecy, mystery and looking for who knows what kind of lost treasure.

I find it a pity. Because the actual history, what we can glance of the life and mindset of those people who lived so long ago, and how we know about it and how we can learn more about, is more interesting than all this made up secrecy stuff. IMHO of course.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Secret indeed.

Umberto Eco in his brilliant Lector in Fabula pointed out that irrational conspiracy theories all depend on a false notion that everything is secret.

 

[Kathar1na]

For those interested in the Templiers/Hospitaliers, I recommend this link for some good background reading: https://knightstemplarorder.org/templar-order/templar-foundations/

One of the first things I often do is look at who runs a website.

I was a little taken aback when I saw that the website is Powered by the Holy Spirit and hosted by the Royal Alliance of Independent States (RAIS). But ok.

I read that Copyright is held by the Order of the Temple of Solomon. And also: Only small parts can be quoted, only with Attribution Credit and a Link to this official website, which should use this source reference: "Prince Judge Matthew of Thebes (Editor), [...] Grand Mastery, Order of the Temple of Solomon, Geneva (2020).

Given these restrictions, I don't think that I will quote even small parts.

 

[McSherry]

The Camino was already well established before the Templars came into being in the early 12th century (1118 is often given as the approximate date of formation...which meant they did not go on the earliest of the Crusades). The Templars were to protect pilgrims going to the Holy Lands...and to do this they had to make themselves known, and that is also how they attracted others to join. Keep in mind, they were knights, not mere foot soldiers (but they needed to have them join up). Also, the Hospitallers and the Templars had different goals and callings, and reported to different parties...and... most importantly, competed with one another for funding, basically.

Traveling incognito would not have made too much sense in that period. The idea of the Templar being incognito comes about when the order destroyed/outlawed/oppressed...then some of the knights not captured are thought to have gone underground.

 

[Kathar1na]

[Moved from earlier post]

@Crosbie, this forum is not meant as a forum for sharing and discussing Templar stuff as such. Surely, there must be plenty of other websites for this purpose?

So this idea that a network of 10th and 11th century pilgrimage routes in Europe was created by the Templars, in particular what is known as the Camino to Santiago, with the sole purpose of allowing for their secret overland travels from Europe via Galicia, Portugal and all of North Africa to the Holy Land and back, and all this in secret cooperation with the Hospitallers - is this idea somewhat elaborated on the website you quoted or elsewhere or is it a novel idea?

Before long, I fear you will need to establish some meaningful and convincing connection otherwise this thread will see the fate of similar threads: It will be closed by the moderators.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

This thread promises to be more fun than a barrel full of monkeys!

 

[Keyser]

It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.

The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram”

It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.

The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram” gives an excellent history of the Camino, currently up to part 8. The following link will bring you to the part that deals with Knights Templar/Hospitaliers involvement with the camino. Their issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation to me.

The Scholarly Pilgrim - History of the Camino de Santiago: S1 E7 - Templars and Hospitallers on the Medieval Camino de Santiago on Apple Podcasts

Show The Scholarly Pilgrim - History of the Camino de Santiago, Ep S1 E7 - Templars and Hospitallers on the Medieval Camino de Santiago - 16 Jun 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Crosbie]

The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram”

The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram” gives an excellent history of the Camino, currently up to part 8. The following link will bring you to the part that deals with Knights Templar/Hospitaliers involvement with the camino. Their issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation to me.

The Scholarly Pilgrim - History of the Camino de Santiago: S1 E7 - Templars and Hospitallers on the Medieval Camino de Santiago on Apple Podcasts

Show The Scholarly Pilgrim - History of the Camino de Santiago, Ep S1 E7 - Templars and Hospitallers on the Medieval Camino de Santiago - 16 Jun 2023

podcasts.apple.com

Thank you very much Keyser, this is the sort of thing I was after. Although I am very knowledgeable about the origins of the Templars (and their mission), I am quite a novice when it comes to the details of their subsequent proliferation. Shortly to embark upon my first Camino, I had a strong hunch there was a Hospitaliers/Templiers connection, hence my interest in remedying my considerable ignorance in this area - assuming there must be plenty on this forum who've already researched this aspect.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram” gives an excellent history of the Camino, currently up to part 8. The following link will bring you to the part that deals with Knights Templar/Hospitaliers involvement with the camino. Their issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation to me.

History rather than fantasy ...

 

[Lurch]

You are obviously relying on some very interesting historical sources. What you may not realize is that they are still running the world from their underground bunker in Jerusalem

That is where the gold horde is, right? I think I saw it in a movie, or maybe book, so it must be true!

 

[Kathar1na]

podcast “The Scolarly Pilgram”

That's quite good.

When he says that the castle in Ponferrada is the most iconic symbol of the Templars along the Camino and that it can be still visited today, he has either not done his homework or he glosses over the fact that there is nothing left from the Templars during their time there.

The only bit from the time of the Templar's presence in Ponferrada are some foundation stones at the bottom of one of the towers. Everything else that one sees dates from later periods.

The Castle is still worth a visit, and they have a library with Templar books and an exhibition with medieval costumes.

 

[Kathar1na]

The German Wikipedia article has a map of the Templar sites (encomienda in Spanish) in Spain at the height of their economic power around the year 1300.

As you can see there wasn't much of a Templar presence along the Camino Francés. Most of it was in Aragon with Monzón as a major centre and in Portugal around Tomar.

 

[Kathar1na]

And similar with the Knights Hospitaller (left, in red). Their sites, too, were not exactly lined up along the Camino de Santiago. Unlike the Templars, they were established in Santiago and they had a greater presence in the Kingdom of Navarra.

PS: Al-Andalus is already tiny!

 

[Lurch]

Come on folks…let’s not take ourselves too seriously, to the point that we can’t laugh at some silliness!

 

[Hermitanyo]

Just wait until he finds out the Templars invented modern banking and credit.

 

[dick bird]

It seems that the CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

The Hospitaliers were those who established secure places of refuge for travelling knights Templar, i.e. two sides of the same coin.

It is possible that the CdS route is simply one of the key routes for Templars travelling to/from Egypt via Morocco, Portugal, SdC, on to France, etc.

So, it is possible that 'pilgrimage' arose as a cover that Templars adopted when they travelled this key route - as it became established.

A few holes in this theory, I´m afraid.

1. First hole - the Knights etc etc were founded in the wake of the crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries, by which time the pilgrimage was in full swing and the Codex Calextinus had already been written.
2. The Camino Francés was an important trade route linking a chain of big cities from Santiago via Ponferrada through Léon, Burgos and Pamplona, capital of the Kingdom of Navarre which controlled a large area of France. There were colonies of French (or `Franks') all along it e.g. Estella. The pilgrims followed it because it was convenient. It was there even before the pilgrims, let alone the Knights Templar and Hospitalier.

3. I'd suggest that Templars tended to travel incognito, e.g. as pilgrims.

   People who build yomping great castles all over the landscape don´t need to travel in disguise. The Knights Templar were never a secret organisation - they had a very visible profile until they got the King of France offside. In fact, as a monk would not have been a good disguise since, until the Franciscans were formed, monks were discouraged from travel and only did so in groups or delegations.
4. If you were travelling to Egypt or Morocco or from France etc, why would you go via Santiago? It is not on the coast. It is not even on the way. You would take a boat from Marseille or somewhere else handily located on the Mediterranean, not risk a sea voyage around the Iberian peninsula through the Atlantic.

So is it possible? On the not very well hidden evidence (even I know all this without even having to look it up, but feel free to check), no. The Templars were a weird bunch, but they didn´t invent the pilgrimage to Santiago just to disguise whatever nefarious activities they might have been engaged in.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The German Wikipedia article has a map of the Templar sites (encomienda in Spanish) in Spain at the height of their economic power around the year 1300.

As you can see there wasn't much of a Templar presence along the Camino Francés. Most of it was in Aragon with Monzón as a major centre and in Portugal around Tomar.

View attachment 154684

Does look like a fairly strong Templar presence on the Portuguese Way to Rome though ...

 

[Kathar1na]

This rather academic book, translated to English might interest you.

I'd be curious to know whether this book sheds any light on the actual function of the Templar site in Ponferrada?

My understanding is that Ponferrada was an encomienda which means an economic-administrative centre for managing their business interests and the income from their properties in the area - income that was then transferred to the Holy Land for the Order's financial and economic needs there. And not a garrison where knights in armour were galloping about and going on daily patrol up and down the Camino?

I had a look at the map for Al-Andalus. When the Templar order received the Ponferrada site as a donation in 1178, the border with the Muslim part of Spain was already far away to the south; surely there was no need for military protection from a potential aggressor in the Ponferrada area?

 

[Crosbie]

A few holes in this theory, I´m afraid.

1. First hole - the Knights etc etc were founded in the wake of the crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries, by which time the pilgrimage was in full swing and the Codex Calextinus had already been written.
2. The Camino Francés was an important trade route linking a chain of big cities from Santiago via Ponferrada through Léon, Burgos and Pamplona, capital of the Kingdom of Navarre which controlled a large area of France. There were colonies of French (or `Franks') all along it e.g. Estella. The pilgrims followed it because it was convenient. It was there even before the pilgrims, let alone the Knights Templar and Hospitalier.
3. 
   People who build yomping great castles all over the landscape don´t need to travel in disguise. The Knights Templar were never a secret organisation - they had a very visible profile until they got the King of France offside. In fact, as a monk would not have been a good disguise since, until the Franciscans were formed, monks were discouraged from travel and only did so in groups or delegations.
4. If you were travelling to Egypt or Morocco or from France etc, why would you go via Santiago? It is not on the coast. It is not even on the way. You would take a boat from Marseille or somewhere else handily located on the Mediterranean, not risk a sea voyage around the Iberian peninsula through the Atlantic.

So is it possible? On the not very well hidden evidence (even I know all this without even having to look it up, but feel free to check), no. The Templars were a weird bunch, but they didn´t invent the pilgrimage to Santiago just to disguise whatever nefarious activities they might have been engaged in.

1. The Templars (as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century if you know where to look, which is why they instigated the crusades, to bring to them much needed military assistance, to preserve their ability to guard Solomon's Temple and its environs.
2. The further projection of their power via military orders ('Knights') and consolidation of a gradually pervading 'communications network' (aka pilgrimage route) via key cities (whether pre-existing or created as a consequence) continued thereafter.
3. Templars and their agents were the original pilgrims. They would have travelled in a manner least likely to attract unwanted attention, and least likely to disturb the sensibilities of any communities they travelled through. Conversely, if it was desired to instill fear and submission, then the image of a supreme warrior may have been appropriate.
The mission of The Templars is secret, as is the full extent of their power. A visible profile in some respects does not conflict with this.
4. The routes are not A to B, but 'join the dots', or perhaps as in 'all roads lead to Rome'. The Templars' networks were about pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown. It wasn't simply about getting from one end of Europe to the other as fast as possible. Santiago could well have simply been an early commanderie, on the route from the Basques via Portugal and North Africa.

 

[Tincatinker]

1. The Templars (as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century if you know where to look, which is why they instigated the crusades, to bring to them much needed military assistance, to preserve their ability to guard Solomon's Temple and its environs.
2. The further projection of their power via military orders ('Knights') and consolidation of a gradually pervading 'communications network' (aka pilgrimage route) via key cities (whether pre-existing or created as a consequence) continued thereafter.
3. Templars and their agents were the original pilgrims. They would have travelled in a manner least likely to attract unwanted attention, and least likely to disturb the sensibilities of any communities they travelled through. Conversely, if it was desired to instill fear and submission, then the image of a supreme warrior may have been appropriate.
The mission of The Templars is secret, as is the full extent of their power. A visible profile in some respects does not conflict with this.
4. The routes are not A to B, but 'join the dots', or perhaps as in 'all roads lead to Rome'. The Templars' networks were about pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown. It wasn't simply about getting from one end of Europe to the other as fast as possible. Santiago could well have simply been an early commanderie, on the route from the Basques via Portugal and North Africa.

@Crosbie I followed your “source” with interest and curiosity. I was delighted to find the mixture of known historical facts and completely unsupported assertions that constitute so much of the “truth” available these days. For anyone stuck in a hospital bed as I am it really helps to pass the time. Have you read through to the bit where the Royal Alliance of Independent States traces it’s origins back to Atlantis? That is worth pursuing. However if you are hoping the Camino will bring you revelations of a mystic global network…. I feel the Camino may not be for you. Wherever you look you will not find it. That, the one proof there is that it is real

 

[dick bird]

if you know where to look,

Sorry, I don´t know where to look. It would be nice if you could tell us. The name Templars is generally believed to be derived from the fact that they protected the so-called Temple Mount, presumed site of Solomon´s Temple. They were established in 1119 (a precise date and not the vague 9th, or circa 10th) and were initially stationed in the Al Aqsa mosque. The First Crusade had captured Jerusalem from the Fatimid Caliphate in 1099. It is highly unlikely that prior to then, the Fatimid caliphate would have tolerated the presence of a bunch of Christian knights attempting to defend the Temple of Solomon and its environs and even less likely that local bandits and warlords would have. The establishment of the order is a matter of established historical record. The Templars emphatically did not create the trade routes across the north of Spain, even if they used them - in fact, they probably did, everyone else did. The Templars were not the ´original pilgrims´. Christian pilgrimage dates back to Classical times (well before the 9th century). There was absolutely nothing to stop any member of the order climbing on his horse and going where he wanted, with or without his armour and weapons, no questions asked, just another bloke on a horse. Their power was based on wealth, as was the power of the monasteries. They did not have to do anything clandestine to acquire or protect this wealth, they were the recipients of vast charitable bequests and patronage and the beneficiaries of some very clever financial instruments and accounting procedure. The Templars were about money, lots of it. And it was ultimately money that destroyed them - Philip IV of France owed them money and couldn´t pay so he got them disbanded.

Anyone passing through Santiago on the way to North Africa or the Near East is lost.

Medieval history is actually very interesting if you focus on the real life of real people. Their technology and mathematical expertise were impressive as were their accomplishments in building, metalwork and mechanics e.g. inventing the clock in the 14th century. They had extensive trade and communications networks and highly organised societies capable of huge projects of engineering and logistics - just take a look at the inside of a Romanesque cathedral and try to figure out how they managed to shape and move those stones around or look at a suit of armour and think about the ability to forge and work steel needed to make it. For me that is a lot more interesting and significant than putative secret societies with esoteric knowledge.

 

[chinacat]

@Crosbie

Do you have any contemporary sources with which to back up these assertions?

In the public domain, that is, and not of an arcane origin.

 

[chinacat]

@Crosbie I followed your “source” with interest and curiosity. I was delighted to find the mixture of known historical facts and completely unsupported assertions that constitute so much of the “truth” available these days. For anyone stuck in a hospital bed as I am it really helps to pass the time. Have you read through to the bit where the Royal Alliance of Independent States traces it’s origins back to Atlantis? That is worth pursuing. However if you are hoping the Camino will bring you revelations of a mystic global network…. I feel the Camino may not be for you. Wherever you look you will not find it. That, the one proof there is that it is real

May your recovery be a speedy one.

 

[Kathar1na]

The Templars' networks were about pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown

The Crown? You mean: ""The Government""? What on earth does this mean? It appears to be severely off kilter but I am sure you have an explanation.

I mean ... how many Crowns were there in Europe at the time? Surely more than one Crown. At a wild guess, 45 perhaps if that's enough? Probably much more as we are 30+ countries now although only with a handful of Crowns these days.

For those of us like me who have only a vague memory of their history classes in secondary school - and I am not even certain whether medieval European history is in the curriculum of our global audience here : I pulled out an ancient copy of The Times Atlas of World History, Third edition. It weighs 2.6 kilograms. The drawings illustrate the many medieval kingdoms in what became eventually Spain, Italy, France, Britain, and it does not even include the Holy Roman Empire which was always a political and organisational mess. 1150-1315.

Enjoy - there is not much reading to do, it is mainly images.

 

[SabsP]

I am enjoying this so much! Do not know if this is my Orval trappistbeer speaking or not after a hot walk. Nevertheless cheers for the laughs @Crosbie. To everyone else here : also cheers for the laughs and the scientific replies.
@Tincatinker : speedy recovery.

 

[David Tallan]

....the fact that there is nothing left from the Templars during their time there.

The only bit from the time of the Templar's presence in Ponferrada are some foundation stones at the bottom of one of the towers. Everything else that one sees dates from later periods.

That wasn't what we were told when we visited the castle. Certainly the vast bulk of the castle is from a later date. But I distinctly remember reading in the signage that the part of the castle in the picture below was what remained of the original Templar castle.

 

[Kathar1na]

I just have to share this . I don't even know how I found it but it is just what anyone would want to read who is seriously interested in the specific topic of Templar Order and Camino Francés in particular and ways to Santiago more generally. I may be the only interested person on this forum though ... It's in French.

It is stored on a website called www.templiers.net. This website appears to have an enormous amount of links to historical documents. The real stuff. And also to studies that deserve this name. Plenty of sources are indicated and by that I mean original historical sources and not links to yet another website labelled ""source"". That's my initial impression, I have not yet explored it much.

The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).

My work here is done.

 

[Kirkie]

I just have to share this . I don't even know how I found it but it is just what anyone would want to read who is seriously interested in the specific topic of Templar Order and Camino Francés in particular and ways to Santiago more generally. I may be the only interested person on this forum though ... It's in French.

It is stored on a website called www.templiers.net. This website appears to have an enormous amount of links to historical documents. The real stuff. And also to studies that deserve this name. Plenty of sources are indicated and by that I mean original historical sources and not links to yet another website labelled ""source"". That's my initial impression, I have not yet explored it much.

The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).

My work here is done.

You are exemplar, whatever about Templar...

 

[lalaone]

I just have to share this . I don't even know how I found it but it is just what anyone would want to read who is seriously interested in the specific topic of Templar Order and Camino Francés in particular and ways to Santiago more generally. I may be the only interested person on this forum though ... It's in French.

It is stored on a website called www.templiers.net. This website appears to have an enormous amount of links to historical documents. The real stuff. And also to studies that deserve this name. Plenty of sources are indicated and by that I mean original historical sources and not links to yet another website labelled ""source"". That's my initial impression, I have not yet explored it much.

The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).

My work here is done.

Fantastic site, Kathar1na. The links to "read more" are broken, with 404 error messages. Easy enough to fix as a reader: just delete the extraneous beginning URL, which is doubled in the site's code (https://www.templiers.net/), and voila - success. Lots of great material, thank you

For example:

https://www.templiers.net/https://www.templiers.net/librairies/index.php?page=templiers#121

-->

Librairie de Templiers.net

Ouvrages sur les Ordres Militaires, les Croisades, le Procès, les Romans

www.templiers.net

 

[JabbaPapa]

1. The Templars (as in the guardians of Solomon's Temple) can be traced back to the 9th century if you know where to look, which is why they instigated the crusades, to bring to them much needed military assistance, to preserve their ability to guard Solomon's Temple and its environs.

Sorry, but this is ahistoral. Some people claim them to date back to Egypt and the Pyramids.

2. The further projection of their power via military orders ('Knights') and consolidation of a gradually pervading 'communications network' (aka pilgrimage route) via key cities (whether pre-existing or created as a consequence) continued thereafter.

Makes no sense, sorry.

3. Templars and their agents were the original pilgrims.

This is straightforwardly false.

The earliest Christian Pilgrimage routes predate the Templars by hundreds of years, if not more than a thousand.

They would have travelled in a manner least likely to attract unwanted attention, and least likely to disturb the sensibilities of any communities they travelled through.

Complete nonsense sorry. Have you even met Tomás ??

Conversely, if it was desired to instill fear and submission

And this is just paranoid.

The mission of The Templars is secret, as is the full extent of their power.

What a load of rubbish !!

pervading their power throughout Europe - in parallel with that of The Vatican and The Crown.

Are you a devotee of Dan Brown's ?

Should we be in fear of visitations from albino monks ?

 

[thejoker]

Passing through Ponferrada yesterday, I did love the shop opposite the castle selling all sorts of goodies and picked up a Templar t-shirt, which was really timely as one of my quick-dry ones was finished having gotten ripped on the way down from Foncebadon. The Templars obviously took the time to make some fetching designs in terms of the cross and the two knights in the circle. There's also a nice ice-cream and soda shop near the castle entrance, indicating that the Templars were all sweet-toothed. The yoghurt flavour was lovely, so I also assume the Templars were avid yoghurt fans too.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The earliest Christian Pilgrimage routes predate the Templars by hundreds of years, if not more than a thousand.

OK just for fun, I'll quote a little of the earliest pilgrim journal that I have in my collection. Turn of the 4th and 5th Centuries, and a pilgrimage to Mount Sinai :

Interea ambulantes pervenimus ad quendam locum, ubi se tamen montes illi, inter quos ibamus, aperiebant et faciebant vallem infinitam, ingens, planissima et valde pulchram, et trans vallem apparebat mons sanctus Dei Syna. Hic autem locus, ubi se montes appariebant, iunctus est cum eo loco, quo sunt memoriae concupiscientiae.

In eo ergo loco cum venitur, ut tamen commonuerunt deductores sancti illi, qui nobiscum erant, dicentes : "Consuetude est, ut fiat oratio ab his, qui veniunt, quando de eo loco primitus videtur mons Dei." ; sicut et nos fecimus. Habebat autem de eo loco ad montem Dei forsitan quattuor milia totum per valle illa, quam dici ingens.

Plus ça change et plus c'est la même chose ...

The joy of finally seeing the Mount ; the joy of first setting eyes on the Cathedral.

Notice the complete absence of Templars in Egeria's "live from the Camino" post !!

 

[sillydoll]

I'd be curious to know whether this book sheds any light on the actual function of the Templar site in Ponferrada?

My understanding is that Ponferrada was an encomienda which means an economic-administrative centre for managing their business interests and the income from their properties in the area - income that was then transferred to the Holy Land for the Order's financial and economic needs there. And not a garrison where knights in armour were galloping about and going on daily patrol up and down the Camino?

I had a look at the map for Al-Andalus. When the Templar order received the Ponferrada site as a donation in 1178, the border with the Muslim part of Spain was already far away to the south; surely there was no need for military protection from a potential aggressor in the Ponferrada area?

View attachment 154697

The Templars reworked the vast gold mining area south of Ponferrada at Las Medulas, once the largest in the Roman Empire. Many sources claim that at the beginning of the 12th century, the Templar knights took possession of the fortress and reinforced and extended it to use it as an inhabitable palace and for protection, on the route of the pilgrims on the way to Santiago de Compostela.

 

[Kathar1na]

The Templars reworked the vast gold mining area south of Ponferrada at Las Medulas

Serious question: Templars or no Templars, is there any credible indication that mining at the Medulas gold mines was restarted in the High Middle Ages (1000-1350) after it had ended over a thousand years earlier? Or is that yet another myth of Templars and their gold?

The period of Roman mining that is usually given varies between 100 years and 250 years. The Unesco World heritage site says that there was no subsequent industrial activity. Apparently an environmental disaster at the time but a great place to visit today! Of potential interest for peregrin@s on the Camino Francés and the Camino de Invierno.

In the 1st century A.D. the Roman Imperial authorities began to exploit the gold deposits of this region in north-west Spain, using a technique based on hydraulic power. After two centuries of working the deposits, the Romans withdrew, leaving a devastated landscape. Since there was no subsequent industrial activity, the dramatic traces of this remarkable ancient technology are visible everywhere as sheer faces in the mountainsides and the vast areas of tailings, now used for agriculture.​

 

[David61]

Mr Dick Bird, you made me laugh. "they had a very visible profile until they got the King of France offside."
Virtually all Templars (within reach) were arrested on the same day which is why Friday 13th is considered unlucky. Certainly was for the Templars knights

 

[Crosbie]

The document that led me there is called Ordres du Temple et Hôpital sur les chemins de Saint-Jacques (XIIe-XIIIe siècles).

"Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus."

One should understand the difference between 'pilgrim' as 'a foreign traveller, passing through' and 'an independent person embarked upon a personal spiritual/religious journey'. The former are therefore in service, e.g. as emissariess of the Templiers, or the organisation that formed them in the 9th century.

It was precisely this communications network (of emissaries) that enabled a relatively prompt discovery and response to the desecration of Solomon's Temple in the 9th century - previously considered impregnable. The first responders were thus the first Templars. Subsequently, perhaps during and/or after the crusades, the Knights Templar would have arisen.

I followed your “source” with interest and curiosity.

That was merely a link to background reading material - it is not my 'source' (even in part).

 

[Kathar1na]

"Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus."

One should understand the difference between 'pilgrim' as 'a foreign traveller, passing through' and 'an independent person embarked upon a personal spiritual/religious journey'. The former are therefore in service, e.g. as emissariess of the Templiers, or the organisation that formed them in the 9th century.

It was precisely this communications network (of emissaries) that enabled a relatively prompt discovery and response to the desecration of Solomon's Temple in the 9th century - previously considered impregnable. The first responders were thus the first Templars. During and/or after the crusades, the Knights Templar would have arisen.

Yep, this game can be played endlessly. Pick a quote from somewhere, interpret it in a specific way, and voilà, you have proven your point. Wait for a rebuttal and start your game moves again. I am rarely playing though these days and try to distance myself from these forum games.

For example, the quote you have chosen is in a paragraph that starts with these words (translated from French): The first half of the 12th century saw an increase in the number of pilgrimages, which was part of a wider expansion in trade and communications.

I did not know for a long time, because context is rarely provided in many narratives, that this period in time was a time of great social and economic change. Agriculture became more productive due to technological advances which lead to a rapid increase of the population in Europe, greater wealth was generated, and subsequently urban centres started to appear and to develop. It is not surprising then, isn't it, that there was a wider expansion in trade and communications. Nothing to do with any military-monk orders. At best, they were the result of this development and not the cause.

At a later time - too lazy to look it up - the sea routes became safer because the attacks from Vikings ceased. Result: More Santiago pilgrims from the British Isles.

And so on.

This is why I often say that the history of factual events is more fascinating than the history of fictional events.

 

[Crosbie]

But he also says that on the one hand, contemporary historians are reluctant to study the Templars, distanced by an entire body of esoteric literature whose 'fantasy is not even good quality fantasy.'

JRR Tolkien is pretty good quality. Here's where he got the idea for 'Nine mortal men doomed to die':

*Access to the Temple of Solomon* – The prominent 19th century British Barrister and historian, Charles Addison, documented that the Templar Order was founded as follows:

“Nine Noble Knights formed a holy brotherhood in arms, and entered into
a solemn pact”, inspired by “the religious and military fervour of the
day, and animated by the sacredness of the cause to which they had
devoted their swords”.

King Baldwin II of Jerusalem then “granted them a place of habitation
within the sacred inclosure of the Temple on Mount Moriah”.

https://knightstemplarorder.org/templar-order/templar-foundations/

 

[sillydoll]

Legend is that after their last stand at the Castle of Cornatel in the Medulas, most the Templars in Spain managed to flee to Portugal where they were absorbed into local chapters. Some were given land and were allowed to continue their activities, many under the Knights of Christ.

 

[Crosbie]

Yep, this game can be played endlessly. Pick a quote from somewhere, interpret it in a specific way, and voilà, you have proven your point.

You could say that science was a game concerned with the discovery of knowledge, but even then, it's not about proving points, but about coming up with better theories that better fit the evidence. Scientific theories can be disproved, but they can't be proven.

Just as you have helped me, so I would help you.

 

[Kathar1na]

Legend is that after their last stand at the Castle of Cornatel in the Medulas, most the Templars in Spain managed to flee to Portugal where they were absorbed into local chapters. Some were given land and were allowed to continue their activities, many under the Knights of Christ.

Did you see my question to you in post #52 whether there is any credible indication that mining at the Medulas gold mines was restarted in the High Middle Ages (1000-1350) after it had ended over a thousand years earlier?

By credible evidence I mean documents from the 12th and 13th century: contracts about land purchases or donations, accounts of income, expenditure, transport of ore, melting gold into coins or similar. Did they pick up the hydraulic processes of the Romans? Did they have the technical know-how?

The internet is an amazing tool and numerous documents from this period of time have been digitised and are accessible to the general public. The French BNF has a lot of stuff, including Templar documents about their economic activities.

Since you brought this up - where did you get it from? You don’t have to translate any such documents from the Latin, I am willing to tackle it myself. Just precise details of the source documents, please. If there is any truth to it there must be numerous legal documents about one hundred years of gold mining near Ponferrada in the Middle Ages. No “legend has it” please. That is a waste of time in this context.

 

[AlwynWellington]

The CdS pilgrimage arose at about the same time as the formation of the Templiers and Hospitaliers, i.e. circa 10th, 11th centuries.

I am intrigued by what I suspect is a probable connection.

It is a POSSIBLE fascination that @Crosbie suggests.

But there might be simpler explanations.

The declaration of remains found near Compostela and asserted to be those of the Apostle James the Great occurred in the 9th century (Wikipedia), give or take a year or two. The same source suggests a pilgrimage route was formed shortly after,

A bishop of Le Puy-en-Velay, Godescalco (935-955) recorded the return, in 951, of his pilgrimage.

So, @Crosbie, in the interests of a fully rounded report, this might be another source of possible connection.

With, as @Kathar1na suggests, proper referencing of sources.

 

[JabbaPapa]

"Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus."

The second paragraph states :

C'est ainsi que l'archevêque Guillaume de Tyr (f 1186), qui constitue l'une des sources les plus détaillées — bien que fort partiale

The word "partiale" means "biased".

Les templiers exercent leur mission sur deux routes en particulier : celle du port de Jaffa, où débarquent les navires venus d'Occident, jusqu'à Jérusalem ; et la route de la Ville sainte à la vallée du Jourdain.

As I suggested earlier, the Knights Templar were primarily associated with the Way to Jerusalem and the Holy Land.

Rappelons en effet que l'ordre de l'Hôpital est né d'une confrérie charitable

The author is dishonestly subjecting the very existence of the Hospitallers, far more closely linked to the Camino, to the Templars. Unjustifiably IMO.

Les ordres militaires sont donc également des ordres hospitaliers, mais avec une nuance : le Temple exerce la charité par obligation, dans la droite file du monachisme bénédictin dont il est l'héritier.

This is extremely misleading !!

The Templars had no strict vow of poverty, unlike the Franciscans and the Hospitallers.

Indeed, the very cause of the destruction of the Order was its wealth and that of its Friars/Knights.

Beaucoup d'érudits ont eu tendance à broder à partir de représentations romantiques des ordres militaires et du pèlerinage, mais sans s'appuyer sur la moindre source médiévale.

This pretty much means that notions linking these military Orders with Pilgrimage as such are "romantic" fables having no basis in any Mediaeval sources.

i.e. Pure fantasy.

Contrairement à ce que l'on peut lire dans l'érudition locale, il n'y avait pas « d'itinéraires templiers » où les pèlerins se rendraient « d'étape templière en étape templière. »

i.e. contrary to various modern fantasies, there were no "templar routes" for pilgrims.

D'abord parce que ce que l'on appelle un « chemin de pèlerinage » est en réalité un écheveau de chemins possibles.

What some call a Pilgrimage Way was in fact a complex network of multiple routes leading to this Shrine or that.

And so on ...

 

[AlwynWellington]

Indeed, the very cause of the destruction of the Order was its wealth and that of its Friars/Knights.

Sir Walter Scott, in his romantic novel set near Nottingham about 1190, makes a very similar point.

 

[Tincatinker]

JRR Tolkien is pretty good quality. Here's where he got the idea for 'Nine mortal men doomed to die':

JRR Tolkien wrote fiction. Not history.
Most of us like to distinguish between the two.

 

[Crosbie]

This is extremely misleading !!

The Templars had no strict vow of poverty, unlike the Franciscans and the Hospitallers.

Indeed, the very cause of the destruction of the Order was its wealth and that of its Friars/Knights.

Beaucoup d'érudits ont eu tendance à broder à partir de représentations romantiques des ordres militaires et du pèlerinage, mais sans s'appuyer sur la moindre source médiévale.

This pretty much means that notions linking these military Orders with Pilgrimage as such are "romantic" fables having no basis in any Mediaeval sources.

i.e. Pure fantasy.

Contrairement à ce que l'on peut lire dans l'érudition locale, il n'y avait pas « d'itinéraires templiers » où les pèlerins se rendraient « d'étape templière en étape templière. »

i.e. contrary to various modern fantasies, there were no "templar routes" for pilgrims.

D'abord parce que ce que l'on appelle un « chemin de pèlerinage » est en réalité un écheveau de chemins possibles.

What some call a Pilgrimage Way was in fact a complex network of multiple routes leading to this Shrine or that.

And so on ...

I have been trying, gently, to intimate, that, whatever they may have claimed, The Hospitaliers/Templiers were not at all concerned with 'pilgrims' as in 'individuals of independent means, pursuing a personal, religious/spiritual mission', but that this was nevertheless a cover of convenience for their emissaries - and the commanderies (secure relays) built to consolidate their network of communications and influence.

There is a lot that is misleading, and due to the secret mission of the Templars, this is to be expected.

You have to ask yourself why the Vatican recognised The Templars as a power/principality answerable only unto themselves.

It helps if you understand the origins of the Templars, i.e. the significance of Solomon's Temple (and its desecration in the 9th century).

 

[Crosbie]

As I suggested earlier, the Knights Templar were primarily associated with the Way to Jerusalem and the Holy Land.

The significance of Jerusalem/The Holy Land is entirely due to Solomon's Temple, i.e. It is holy precisely because of the 'holy of holies' within The Temple. And again, 'The Knights Templar', whenever they arose (9th century or later), were so called because they were the militarised guardians of Solomon's Temple - and missionaries thereof.

 

[Crosbie]

JRR Tolkien wrote fiction. Not history.
Most of us like to distinguish between the two.

Tolkien wrote a mythology for England (having been long since disintegrated and lost due to cultural mixing), and mythology trumps history. Check out Hamlet's Mill for a glimpse of this. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hamlets_mill/hamletmill.htm

Further reading: https://thehistoryvault.co.uk/tolkiens-english-mythology/

 

[chinacat]

Shame there isn’t a ’raised eyes’ smilie () in the responses

 

[David Tallan]

mythology trumps history

I think this is fundamentally the premise of this thread.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The significance of Jerusalem/The Holy Land is entirely due to Solomon's Temple

In fact, the Templars had their name from the (now almost entirely destroyed) Temple in Paris, which was their administrative headquarters (their military headquarters was elsewhere in France).

The pseudo "esoteric" stuff that people have made up about the Order since its destruction is about 99% codswallop -- though it's true that some rare survivors of the French purge of the Order did turn bad.

 

[Kathar1na]

I think this [Mythology trumps history] is fundamentally the premise of this thread.

Not really.

It is a popular and "classical" method: Take tools from one trade (a well defined scientific subject area or subject matter) and use it, without sense or reason, in another trade. A bit like taking the methods of a cobbler of finding out what's wrong with a shoe and how to repair it and use these methods and tools to find out what's wrong with your computer software and how to repair it. You'll get a result, no doubt, when you work on your computer with a hammer, an awl and some spare leather but I bet it will be rubbish.

I had never heard of the two authors of Hamlet's Mill before and I knew Tolkien only as the author of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. Reading a bit up on them, I understand that they deal with the mythologies of ancient peoples - creation myths, story of supernatural beings, the belief system of a whole society.

This is not related in any way to the contemporary fantasy stories about the Templars that have been concocted by small groups of individuals in the 20th century about historical events merely a few hundred years ago during a period of time where there is plenty of written documentation left. Which, as I have said, is often more fascinating but of course not as exciting to read as the make belief contemporary Templar books and Templar movies and Templar websites.

De Santillana, von Dechend and Tolkien don't live anymore. What would they say if they knew that their name and their writing and books are used in attempts to provide some Templar fantasy stories with a fig leaf of authority? I shudder to think of it ...

 

[lalaone]

As historians of science in the 1950s, the authors of Hamlet's Mill's primary project seemed to be de-mythologizing that era’s ideals of Science (big “S,” science writ large) by identifying alterative origins in mythology. Similar projects continued through the next generations of academics, with emphasis turning from mythology to sociology during the 1970s-1990s. The late French philosopher Bruno Latour was generally among this school but in 2003 shocked academics by embracing the reality of empirical evidence. He was confronted with the excesses of some of the field’s scholars – the explosion of the US Challenger rocket, I believe, while guest lecturing at Harvard was a main impetus (he could not embrace that the explosion of a rocket was simply a social construct) – and he spent the rest of his career moving toward collaboration with empiricists and scientists.

Bruno Latour, 75, Philosopher on the Social Basis of Scientific Facts, Dies

A leading thinker of the postwar era, he became an ally of the science establishment in the face of attacks by climate deniers and conspiracy theorists.

www.nytimes.com

A long way of saying: I agree 100% Kathar1na. I don’t know what they would think. I would have to guess they’d fall closer to Bruno Latour after his latter-life turn, were they alive today. All that said, I do not see what connection the book Hamlet's Mill might possibly have with the Knights Templar. Let alone JRR Tolkien. I love imagination...it fails me here.

 

[Crosbie]

All that said, I do not see what connection the book Hamlet's Mill might possibly have with the Knights Templar. Let alone JRR Tolkien. I love imagination...it fails me here.

Here’s a connection to get you started: The ‘mill’ of Hamlet’s Mill is depicted in the Templar Cross, as is the 'ring' in ‘one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them’.

 

[Walkalong]

The rebuttal and clarification of this misinformed conspiracy theorist is very informative. Thanks for the facts.

Even with written docs one must consider the source. Just because it’s old does not make it reliable.

Poor Cod (the fish that changed the world) will swallow anything.

 

[dick bird]

Here’s a connection to get you started: The ‘mill’ of Hamlet’s Mill is depicted in the Templar Cross, as is the 'ring' in ‘one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them’.

Moderator's note: We are drifting inexorably away from the original subject of the thread into topics of no real relevance to the camino e.g. J.R.R.Tolkien´s inspiration for his 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy. Please keep to the subject of the thread or we shall have to close it.

 

[Kathar1na]

Poor Cod (the fish that changed the world) will swallow anything.

Interesting story on the Smithonian's website about the review for a book about the history of cod fishing. I looked for a passage about faked historical documents but could not find anything. Then it dawned on me that you were referring to the passage where it says that "cod do find lots to eat, swimming with their huge mouths open, ingesting whatever goes in. In 1994 a Dutch fisherman caught a cod with a set of dentures in its belly."

 

[Kathar1na]

Even with written docs one must consider the source. Just because it’s old does not make it reliable.

Of course. And not everyone can be a Renaissance woman or man these days and be highly educated and highly trained in every area of today's vast human knowledge. That is why we have experts who can tell whether a document is faked on material grounds (paper quality, age, ink, etc etc) or on content grounds because they know context and can put it in context. Of course anyone else, me included, can have opinions. Needless to say scientific and scholarly dispute is normal - that is how we humans have increased our knowledge.

There is one post (#25) that peeked my interest. The poster mentions the podcast “The Scolarly Pilgrim” and says that "[the Templars'] issue of the equivalent to letters of credit to allow pilgrims obtain services on the route without having to carry coins or precious objects was a revelation". I had been aware of their role as bankers to the kings of European countries but not really aware of a similar role for pilgrims. I got curious.

I don't think that they were the equivalent of our ATMs today . But they did play a role in providing financial services to pilgrims, especially those travelling to Jerusalem in the 13th century (1200-1300). I looked for info on Santiago pilgrims in particular and found two names of such pilgrims. One was a Parisian with the name of Pierre Sarrasin. I managed to find the actual contract between him and the Templar organisation. Alas, it is in Latin and no complete translation into French, German, English or Spanish is online. It will be a struggle again but I am determined to read the original source and not rely on short quotes in books. What made it difficult to track down the original document is the fact that various authors use different spellings of his name including for his first name - Pierre, Pedro, Peter even, and in the Latin document he calls himself "ego, Petrus Sarracenus".

I had not bookmarked anything earlier and when I started googling again yesterday for his name (which I could barely remember) one of the Google hits led me to a 19th century book where the contract appeared to be mentioned as it had been offered for sale to a collector. The author said it was faked and he could easily recognise the fakery. I had a near heart attack - all this searching in vane and I would have made a fool of myself had I proudly posted my find on the forum. Luckily, it turned out that even I could have seen that it was a fake. The 19th century fraudster had copied the original 13th century contract word by word but had replaced the name of Petrus Sarracenus with the name of another person - in fact an ancestor of the person to whom he was planning to sell I think.

Yes, fraudsters are plentiful in this business as well as in the whole history of European pilgrimage including the pilgrimage to Santiago.

 

[Walkalong]

Interesting story on the Smithonian's website about the review for a book about the history of cod fishing. I looked for a passage about faked historical documents but could not find anything. Then it dawned on me that you were referring to the passage where it says that "cod do find lots to eat, swimming with their huge mouths open, ingesting whatever goes in. In 1994 a Dutch fisherman caught a cod with a set of dentures in its belly."

It was a response to JabbaPapa's use of "Codswallop".

Like many fishermen, the Basque kept the secret of their fishing grounds for as long as possible, before others figured it out, and eventually followed them, where they fished for many years (pp 24-29). And from whom Cristoforo Colombo learned of the New-Found-Land (Terre Neuve) (page 28). "But the Basque, wanting to keep a good secre, never claimed it for anyone." (page 29)

The Basque would likely have kept their secret much longer had they not been trading 'off the books' to reduce the levy (tax) payable to the church and crown (The Basque History of the World).

The Templars in Ponferrada and Castillo de Cornatel are fair, relevant, questions. Like the 6-7 year old touring an archeological dig who said "I'm confused! Why didn't they just write it down?"

While I wonder if the OPs fantasy and fiction isn't just chumming the water, have we taken the bait - hook, line and sinker?

 

[Walkalong]

PS:
Kathar1na: I greatly appreciate the factual accuracy of your comments and input on this forum.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It was a response to JabbaPapa's use of "Codswallop".

A very erudite response, and thank you !!

 

[Crosbie]

While I wonder if the OPs fantasy and fiction isn't just chumming the water, have we taken the bait - hook, line and sinker?

PS:
Kathar1na: I greatly appreciate the factual accuracy of your comments and input on this forum.

Clearly, being a mere newbie, my claims concerning the Templars are evidently regarded as codswallop, fantasy, or fiction, but perhaps they may obtain a modicum of plausibility if supported via the comments and input you regard as having factual accuracy?

Kathar1na refers us to: https://www.templiers.net/etudes/index.php?page=Ordres-Temple-Hopital-Chemins-Compostelle

The first half of the 12th century is indeed characterized by a development of pilgrimages which is more generally part of a multiplication of exchanges and communications. Even if the road to Jerusalem was already heavily used before 1098, the first crusade opened the doors of the Holy Land to new flows of pilgrims. Attested since the 9th century, the rise of the pilgrimage to Compostela is exactly contemporary with the birth of the two great military orders in the Holy Land, since it was in the years 1100-1120 that Archbishop Diego Gelmirez gave it a definitive impetus. The influx of pilgrims was then such that it led to the writing of an exceptional work, around 1130, the Pilgrim's Guide to Saint Jacques. Since the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830,

That is a pretty good answer to my original question.

The desecration of Solomon's Temple occurred just before 'the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830', and these relics were no doubt some of the damaged remains, especially of the Ark of the Covenant.

The proto-Templars, upon news of the desecration, would immediately respond with a military force to bring a halt to that desecration - ideally also remedying it as far as possible.

That occupying force would consume resources, and spur the indigenous (the desecrators) to form a counter-offensive. Eventually, the Templars would need to mobilise considerable defensive reinforcements, which is what gave rise to the crusades.

Throughout this period, the communications network (pilgrimage routes) would be ever more heavily used, especially in support of those travelling to join the crusades.

NB 'Jerusalem' is 'The Holy Land'. The Holy Land is Holy precisely because of The Holy of Holies within Solomon's Temple (which contained the Ark of The Covenant).

So, the pilgrimage routes to/from The Holy Land via Santiago (St. John/Jean/Jack/Jacques/Jacob/Iacobi/Iago - the Apostle - Eagle/Scorpio) may have existed in vaguer form prior to the 9th century, but will have been greatly consolidated and re-inforced (commanderies) as a consequence of the crusades, and would have been thereafter utilised to project Templar power throughout Europe.

Once no longer needed by The Templars, the tradition of their use would persist, in vestigal form, and give rise to a myth that they had always been about independent pilgrims on a personal spiritual/religious mission - to/from Santiago (The Holy Land having been long since forgotten).

 

[Tincatinker]

OK, @Crosbie. I think you are a fantasist, a troll or perhaps delusional. You seem to be stringing together a few facts, some random assertions and little else to create an alternative reality based on little other than a need for it to exist. Alternatively, you have some knowledge that you are unwilling to share but only to hint at. I’ve known priests and shaman who practiced in that manner.

You suggest that the Templar existed long before any record of them in history. You suggest that they were a secretive organization with a secret mission to carry out secret tasks secretively.

I have two questions. What was it that they we’re doing that was such that it had to remain secret?

If it was such a secret how come you know about it and yet historians down the centuries of recorded time have remained in ignorance?

One final thought. If their purpose was to protect and preserve the Temple of Solomon they made a pretty shite job of it really didn’t they. It’s been razed three times in recorded history and remains occupied and disputed.

 

[Kirkie]

OK, @Crosbie. I think you are a fantasist, a troll or perhaps delusional. You seem to be stringing together a few facts, some random assertions and little else to create an alternative reality based on little other than a need for it to exist. Alternatively, you have some knowledge that you are unwilling to share but only to hint at. I’ve known priests and shaman who practiced in that manner.

You suggest that the Templar existed long before any record of them in history. You suggest that they were a secretive organization with a secret mission to carry out secret tasks secretively.

I have two questions. What was it that they we’re doing that was such that it had to remain secret?

If it was such a secret how come you know about it and yet historians down the centuries of recorded time have remained in ignorance?

One final thought. If their purpose was to protect and preserve the Temple of Solomon they made a pretty shite job of it really didn’t they. It’s been razed three times in recorded history and remains occupied and disputed.

Thanks, @Tincatinker. Thanks. Whatever was ailing you has focussed your mind.

 

[Walkalong]

Codswallop is such a polite term.
Try reading Solomon's Temple, complete with references.

Buen Camino

 

[JabbaPapa]

The desecration of Solomon's Temple occurred just before 'the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830', and these relics were no doubt some of the damaged remains, especially of the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[rappahannock_rev]

Like I said (supra #24), more fun than a barrel full of monkeys!

 

[Crosbie]

I have two questions. What was it that they we’re doing that was such that it had to remain secret?

If it was such a secret how come you know about it and yet historians down the centuries of recorded time have remained in ignorance?

One final thought. If their purpose was to protect and preserve the Temple of Solomon they made a pretty shite job of it really didn’t they. It’s been razed three times in recorded history and remains occupied and disputed.

Are you sure you want to veer off the subject of pilgrimage routes, and jeopardise the future of this thread?

Alrighty then, back to the fiction, that is so despised...

‘Raiders of The Lost Ark’ isn’t far off the mark when it suggests that those who apprehend the message embodied in The Ark are liable to undergo meltdown.

Recall in the HHGTTG, that knowing that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42 doesn’t really mean much - without knowing the question. Similarly, knowing that The Covenant of The Ark is: “If the testimony of this ark is heeded, then mankind will never again be destroyed by a great flood”, doesn't mean much without knowing what the testimony of the ark is.

Both testimony and covenant can still be discovered. It is possible. It takes years of research of course.

Alternatively, you can join The Templars – and work your way up, until you are illuminated with this knowledge as a consequence.

But, otherwise, The Templars will keep the Ark's covenant and testimony to themselves, as well as their holy mission.

As for Solomon’s Temple, bear in mind The Templars were named after it, and the earliest traces of their existence (under that name) goes only as far back as the 9th century – when they became so named as a consequence of becoming its guardians. The Temple goes way back. So, it was still around in the 9th century, and despite desecration (but not destruction), still heavily guarded by the Templars throughout the crusades and thereafter.

The Templars may have been caught off-guard, but once they arrived on the scene they made a pretty good job of it (not a ‘shite’ one).

 

[VNwalking]

Right
Thanks for the correction, @Crosbie .
(I must say, Earth One is so boring...)

 

[C clearly]

That is a pretty good answer to my original question

Can you remind us what that original question was supposed to be? I don't see any question in the OP.

 

[Crosbie]

Can you remind us what that original question was supposed to be? I don't see any question in the OP.

Is there a connection between the Templiers/Hospitaliers and the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage/routes?

Which I contracted to: Templiers/Hospitaliers wrt the CdS pilgrimage?

 

[dick bird]

wrt

I am curious, what does 'wrt' mean?

'the invention of the relics of the apostle, around 830', and these relics were no doubt some of the damaged remains, especially of the Ark of the Covenant.

That is an extraordinary statement to make. Far from 'no doubt', there is absolutely no reason or evidence for it.

Yes, there is a connection. They protected them and used them when going about their usual business.

 

[C clearly]

Is there a connection between the Templiers/Hospitaliers and the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage/routes?

So, haven't we established that there was some coincidence in time and place, and that's about all the connection that is supported by any evidence?

Alrighty then, back to the fiction, that is so despised...

Exactly. Why do you want to pursue the fiction?

what does 'wrt' mean?

I am very pleased to be able to understand and explain this small piece of the thread - it means "with respect to".

 

[Crosbie]

Exactly. Why do you want to pursue the fiction?

Sometimes fiction (or fantasy) can shed light.

This has been part of mankind's tradition in story telling - to impart great truths in the form of fiction.

As Tolkien observed, most so called fairy tales are far from trivial, and were not invented with little thought, as ephemeral amusements for children.

I'm very grateful for the pointers that various commenters have provided me, regarding where I may find answers to my question.

In turn, I will try to answer questions put to me - even if tangential.

 

[C clearly]

to impart great truths in the form of fiction.

Or great fiction as if it were truth.

I am interested in both, but prefer to distinguish between the two.

 

[dick bird]

As Donald Rumsfeld remarked, 'There are known knowns, there are known unknowns ... etc etc'. What he failed to mention was ' then there's the stuff we just made up'. That's what fiction is , stuff that is just made up. It can be very illuminating as to how people see and understand the world around them, it may be inspired by or a re-imagining of what people see or hear around them, but it is still stuff we made up.

 

[Kathar1na]

I, too, wonder "if the OP's fantasy and fiction isn't just chumming the water, have we taken the bait - hook, line and sinker" ? And every post is an occasion to reply with more of the same ...

So the idea put forward in the thread is the idea that "sometimes fiction (or fantasy) can shed light and this has been part of mankind's tradition in story telling - to impart great truths in the form of fiction and as Tolkien observed, most so called fairy tales are far from trivial, and were not invented with little thought, as ephemeral amusements for children."

The fiction in question is: The Templars invented and built a huge net of roads that today are called pilgrimage roads and served a secret mission that lasted hundreds of years, starting in the Middle Ages (?) and (?) still going on or being revived now (?).

This fiction does not fall into the fairtytale category. The purpose of fairytales has been discussed by half a million authors, starting at least with Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm and not ending with Bruno Bettelheim and his well-known book published in the 80s. Oral tradition. The art of fairytale telling is immaterial world heritage in Germany and Austria. Long article in Wikipedia in various languages. Contain moral lessons and life lessons in addition to pure entertainment.

This fiction does not fall into the legend category. But at least here we are in the world of the pilgrimage to Santiago which is full of legends. A man appears on a horse in the sky. A world famous dead emperor has a dream. Grilled chicken fly. A man stays alive while hanging on the gallows for 36 days and supported by another man who had been decapitated a good thousand years earlier. These stories were taken for fact in a world where the laws of nature had not yet been explored in the way they were explored and discovered in subsequent centuries. Their purpose was manifold and in many cases politically motivated.

This fiction does not fall into the saga category such as the creation myths do. Again, oral tradition. Again, from a time when the laws of nature had not yet been explored in the way they were explored and discovered in subsequent centuries. This is how people - and they were not dumb people - explained the world they lived in and what they observed and those before them had observed. For example the Milky Way - it's spilled breast milk when Herakles was a baby; it's the visible path of the souls of the dead; it's the dust or the ashes of the trail of a man who rode a wagon over the sky. Ancient and medieval people did not know and could not see what we can see with the help of powerful telescopes: The Milky Way consists of distant stars, of suns actually. That was not known before the end of the Middle Ages and until astronomers with new technology came along, among them Herschel in the 18th century.

So what does it leave us with: The narrative is a fictional story, invented in the 19th, 20th or 21st century. It is not an old oral story. It wants to explain something that does not need such an artificial explanation: it is known how the system of roads that we call European pilgrimage roads came into existence. There is plenty of written historical documentation.

Just because some known ancient fairytales, legends, sagas and myths have a kernel of fact in them does not mean that this new fictional story has even a fraction of an atom of fact in it. That is the whole argument upon which it rests: It could perhaps be true .... when I hear this line of argumentation I usually think, sure, the sun could perhaps rise in the west tomorrow morning.

 

[thejoker]

@Crosbie, having read your latest posts I think you do really believe in much of what you're saying. Jim Jones followers fully believed in him too.
I get it that you're seeking, trying to find understanding, searching for meaning, reading the ramblings of marginal authors and feeling that you are 'in' on some special secret knowledge that is only available to those in the clique (sect, clan, cult, brotherhood, zombie club...). You have told us that you are 'very knowledgeable about the Templars and their mission'. Like MANY others before you, you have alluded to secret knowledge, yet, in your case, your only response to further probing has been to encourage people to join 'the Templars' to attain it. Ah, same old, same old. This is the 2020's not the 1960's or 70's. There must be more than 200 different groups calling themselves the rightful Templars, yet you have found the 'real' Templars. Congratulations.
In a few years, I am sure you will look back on this time as a time of growth for you, but a time when you were somewhat naive and gullible.
By the way, you could think things through by giving yourself 40 days or so to walk the Camino Frances. It's great for clearing the mind and gaining clarity.

 

[Kathar1na]

The HHGTTG was mentioned earlier. It reminded me of the Electric Monk. I found a suitable quote thanks to Google. It is a device that may come in handy:

​

“The Electric Monk was a labour-saving device, like a dishwasher or a video recorder... Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task, that of believing all the things the world expected you to believe.”​

― Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency​

 

[Crosbie]

I usually think, sure, the sun could perhaps rise in the west tomorrow morning.

What a line to end on!

As you may therefore already know, at the time Solomon's Temple was being built, The Sun rose in the West.

 

[dick bird]

As you may therefore already know, at the time Solomon's Temple was being built, The Sun rose in the West.

This may be because at that time, as everyone knew, the world was flat.

 

[Crosbie]

This may be because at that time, as everyone knew, the world was flat.

It may have seemed flat from the perspective of a human being, just as it may have seemed that The Sun rotated about The Earth.
If you pay a visit to the Total Perspective Vortex, all becomes clear.