- Time of past OR future Camino
- Too many and too often!
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Why do they call this route "Bentartera"?.Here is yesterday's tweet from the Bomberos Navarra (rescue team):
https://twitter.com/BomberosNavarra/status/841352938140372993/photo/1
This large sign cannot be overlooked and should be comprehensible for anyone after elementary school.
I agree, but anyone visiting the Pilgrim's office in SJPdP would be told to take the Valcarlos route at this time of year. Brierkey's guide (and probably all others) mention it as well, being the lower, more safe route. I think there is plenty of information available on the perils of the Napoleon route. I surprisingly have read on this forum that even in May some have encountered snow!No, the problem is that, in recent times, there are more and more pilgrims who get into trouble and need rescuing. I hope that threads like this will help to spread the word. I feel more could be done to inform and warn people long before they have finalized their plans and arrived in SJPdP.
I don't know about other Asian and South American countries, @Sparrow in Texas, but I do know there are guides available in both Korea and Brazil.How do pilgrims from, say Asia or South America, get specific information about the Camino if their ability to read the particular guides that most of us use is limited?
At the Pilgrim's office I was given a sheet of paper with map showing both routes out of SJPdP, and a volunteer in the office went over it with me. Also, I believe I remember a larger size of this map on the wall. In my opinion, it's a rather simple "universal" map that should be able to be interpreted by sight by anyone who takes the time to study it.I don't know about other Asian and South American countries, @Sparrow in Texas, but I do know there are guides available in both Korea and Brazil.
I guess we'll never know for sure if the people rescued were ignorant of the facts, or over confident with the thought they could power through any weather situation!The blanket ban (November-March) is only into its second year and less widely known.
I think that most Brazilians although speakers of Portuguese would be able to make a reasonable stab at interpreting information in Spanish which is after all the predominant language of the Camino. Also in the tweet from the Bomberos which @Kathar1na mentions above there is this image of the warning closure sign which is mainly graphic and intended to be understood by all:Pilgrims from North America and the EU are generally aware of various cultural expectations and other specifics of the Camino such as stopping in with the pilgrim's office and checking the weather. How do pilgrims from, say Asia or South America, get specific information about the Camino if their ability to read the particular guides that most of us use is limited? I ask this sincerely, not as a cultural criticism.
Well said @Kathar1na. Hollywood and the blogosphere have certainly added to a grand tradition of hype that goes back 1000 years.And another disappointment: So Roland did not drink from this spring?
I took the Valcarlos route on my first Camino in 2015 as I was too late to get a reservation at Orrison. Plus I was pretty fearful to tackle the Napoleon on my first day out of SJPdP on April 13th (being early 60's), and around the dinner table at Corazon Puro the night before a Spanish couple said they were forced to spend the previous night in that hut up top! Another English man said he encountered snow and slipped. Well, that solidified for me that I was going to take the Valcarlos route! I was so glad I did. I have wonderful memories of mild weather with almost no wind and lovely landscapes.When I reached Roncevalles, most everyone arriving off the Napoleon had muddy shoes and pants and very disheveled looking... I say "You don't miss what you don't know." And "If it aint broke, why fix it." I return in 30 days and will once again choose the Valcarlos route.Here is an article that summarizes last year's winter season and rescue actions (in Spanish). It also lists the hourly costs you may get billed if you need rescuing. One pilgrim received a 5360 EUR bill last year - also in March.
There is also this comment (my translation effort):
But why do some chose this route in winter when there is an easier alternative [via Valcarlos]? It seems that the French have initiated a campaign to lead the pilgrims onto the Route of Napoleon [I am not certain about the following: changing local place names such as the "Bentartea spring" into "Roland's spring"?]. Pilgrims therefore believe that this route is more authentic and will be experienced as an adventure. What they do not know is that in wintery conditions the difficulties change radically. In fact, most of those who cross are not well equipped or able to orient themselves when way markers and other orientation signs are covered by snow. Instead, they are confident when they leave Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port (165 m) and see the sun shining, without knowing anything about what they are going to find at an altitude of 1430 meters on the Lepoeder pass.
I don't think that "the French" are to be blamed alone but this route is heavily promoted and glorified in blogs, books, articles, movies. And that is what I mean: some people are so geared up to not wanting to miss this supposedly extraordinary once-in-a-lifetime experience of walking the route Napoleon that it may appear too late for them to change their plans when they learn only the day before that they are not supposed to take this road (in March/during the winter months).
And another disappointment: So Roland did not drink from this spring?
I say Amen to that!I hope these people are made to pay the FULL cost of their rescue. It is more expensive than most people realize to maintain and operate a rescue service like this, not even including the risks run by the people doing the rescue. In my younger days I was a backcountry ranger for the National Park Service in the USA and based upon this experience I understand there are young (usually men) who think they are superman and can do what nobody else can. Then the professionals and the local people have to bail them out. I doubt it was lack of information in this case. Look at that sign and the field of snow behind. Any competent adult would have realized this was suitable only for well equipped winter mountaineering, if that, not a walk between beds on the Camino. Last year I crossed from SJPP into Spain in March, via Valcarlos. It is the only reasonable route at this time of year.
I say let's stop making excuses for these people and call a spade a spade. Call it the rush of adrenalyn, the effect of fresh air on the brain.
Lots of my friends would call "spade for a spade" a racist connotation. I still don't believe this kind of bravado is anything but stupidity.I say let's stop making excuses for these people and call a spade a spade. Call it the rush of adrenalyn, the effect of fresh air on the brain.
From the article it appears that they used the emergency radio system installed in the shelter rather than comms they brought with them. I haven't been over the Route Napoleon myself since 2002. No idea what mobile phone coverage there is like.At least they had comms and enough sense to call for help when they found themselves out of their depth. Doing so from Izandorre refuge hut meant they had a good reference point for the rescuers too.
... but this route is heavily promoted and glorified in blogs, books, articles, movies. And that is what I mean: some people are so geared up to not wanting to miss this supposedly extraordinary once-in-a-lifetime experience of walking the route Napoleon that it may appear too late for them to change their plans when they learn only the day before that they are not supposed to take this road (in March/during the winter months).
Why a racist connotation? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spadeLots of my friends would call "spade for a spade" a racist connotation. I still don't believe this kind of bravado is anything but stupidity.
Lots of my friends would call "spade a spade" a racist connotation.
The link you posted answers your question. Did you read the entire article?Why a racist connotation? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade
No, I read a good portion of it and saw ot was not issue. Something to keep in mond south of the border, but not applied elsewhere apparently.The link you posted answers your question. Did you read the entire article?
The slur is in American English usage; apparently the phrase does not have the same connotation in the UK or Canada.
@biarritzdon Thanks for learning me something new. That is what I like about this forum.
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade
See this Wikipedia article about the phrase, which originated long before the word "spade" had developed another meaning in the USA.Lots of my friends would call "spade for a spade" a racist connotation.
I must really have my head in the sand as I'm from the USA and have never heard the word "spade" as slang referring to African Americans. But I think I will start using "call a cat is a cat". Hopefully that will not be offensive to anyone...but then again, hmmm.See this Wikipedia article about the phrase, which originated long before the word "spade" had developed another meaning in the USA.
The last sentence says "The phrase predates the use of the word "spade" as an ethnic slur against African Americans, which was not recorded until 1928; however, in contemporary U.S. society, the idiom is often avoided due to potential confusion with the slur."
How awful and so very sad! Yes, rescue efforts are sometimes as dangerous as those individuals they are trying to help.This happened today and is a reminder that no rescue/recovery is without risk.
The selfish few who insist on recklessly ignoring warnings should learn this.
http://www.10news.com/news/u-s-world/4-killed-in-mexico-helicopter-crash-during-hiker-recovery
This is verbiage that definitely existed unfortunately in what I refer to as my homogenized part of the country. It is like all things a bad habit of use,because it is used also to describe things other than our brothers & sisters of color. That is in fact a way to dehumanize. In order to eliminate it from local speech best never to use it. Even if it was used in daily language from childhood.I must really have my head in the sand as I'm from the USA and have never heard the word "spade" as slang referring to African Americans. But I think I will start using "call a cat is a cat". Hopefully that will not be offensive to anyone...but then again, hmmm.
Will be sure not to use the term when acroos the border. Bit what a sad reflectionon how the ise of language can go sideways and cause such uneasiness jist like that.This is verbiage that definitely existed unfortunately in what I refer to as my homogenized part of the country. It is like all things a bad habit of use,because it is used also to describe things other than our brothers & sisters of color. That is in fact a way to dehumanize. In order to eliminate it from local speech best never to use it. Even if it was used in daily language from childhood.
Thanks Don - I was thinking along the lines of "crazy" but maybe your term is closer to the truth. I have not read the newspaper article - have they been fined or made to pay the rescue costs??Is the word "IDIOTS" allowed on the Forum without offending certain people who can not read or follow simple rules and signage. Guess what, closed means: closed.
No, the problem is that, in recent times, there are more and more pilgrims who get into trouble and need rescuing. I hope that threads like this will help to spread the word. I feel more could be done to inform and warn people long before they have finalized their plans and arrived in SJPdP.
Me thinks that fancy snow mobile will be paid in no time!Someone please correct me - but if I recall correctly when the Government of the Navarra Province posted this notice - closing the route from 1 Nov to 31 March - it implied that anyone needing to be rescued(?) would be charged the cost of the rescue. Have our friends been charged?? If not then they should have - I am sure that the pilgrim office in St Jean would have told them the route was closed.
The expression was used for 1000 years without any connection at all to race, direct or indirect. It referred to a common item - a shovel. Only recently, coincidentally, the word "spade" has become associated with race, but many of us English-speakers grew up without that new association. So, I'd argue that it is not a "bad habit of use" or "dehumanizing" by the people who innocently use it. It is not one of those nasty phrases that is built into our language until its nastiness becomes almost invisible. Rather the unpleasantness is a new meaning that crept in.This is verbiage that definitely existed unfortunately in what I refer to as my homogenized part of the country. It is like all things a bad habit of use,because it is used also to describe things other than our brothers & sisters of color. That is in fact a way to dehumanize. In order to eliminate it from local speech best never to use it. Even if it was used in daily language from childhood.
Thank you, C clearly for your comment. You speak for me, as well!The expression was used for 1000 years without any connection at all to race, direct or indirect. It referred to a common item - a shovel. Only recently, coincidentally, the word "spade" has become associated with race, but many of us English-speakers grew up without that new association. So, I'd argue that it is not a "bad habit of use" or "dehumanizing" by the people who innocently use it. It is not one of those nasty phrases that is built into our language until its nastiness becomes almost invisible. Rather the unpleasantness is a new meaning that crept in.
I accept that it is therefore unwise to use the phrase anymore. But it is not a phrase that stems from racism.
I agree with you when using in a positive way. Unfortunately I have witnessed bad people use it to express their hate. Unfortunatly after the use of a weapon.We all have unique life experience so I simply do not use it. If I insulted you it was not intended.The expression was used for 1000 years without any connection at all to race, direct or indirect. It referred to a common item - a shovel. Only recently, coincidentally, the word "spade" has become associated with race, but many of us English-speakers grew up without that new association. So, I'd argue that it is not a "bad habit of use" or "dehumanizing" by the people who innocently use it. It is not one of those nasty phrases that is built into our language until its nastiness becomes almost invisible. Rather the unpleasantness is a new meaning that crept in.
I accept that it is therefore unwise to use the phrase anymore. But it is not a phrase that stems from racism.
I have to agree - I have never heard the word "spade" applied to any person or racial group. Whilst not American I consider myself across most "slang"terms. It sounds as if someone as gone off "half-cocked". Still if others consider if offensive I will not use it on this forum.I must really have my head in the sand as I'm from the USA and have never heard the word "spade" as slang referring to African Americans. But I think I will start using "call a cat is a cat". Hopefully that will not be offensive to anyone...but then again, hmmm.
No, no. I was not insulted. I wanted to point out that this phrase is the victim of changing times, but people who use it are not necessarily aware that it is becoming unacceptable (for reasons that are not its fault).If I insulted you it was not intended.
Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
Someone please correct me - but if I recall correctly when the Government of the Navarra Province posted this notice - closing the route from 1 Nov to 31 March - it implied that anyone needing to be rescued(?) would be charged the cost of the rescue. Have our friends been charged?? If not then they should have - I am sure that the pilgrim office in St Jean would have told them the route was closed.
The only time that there was some kind of official or public information about the recovery of costs for a rescue action during November to March was last year (March 2016) for a rather spectacular and difficult rescue when it was announced that the two pilgrims concerned will receive a bill, one for several thousand euros and the other for a much lower sum.
Has anyone ever reported that this relatively remote 5 km stretch of the route Napoléon is policed or a fine of any kind was ever issued? I don't think so!!! The number of the applicable Spanish law (a resolucion) is on the sign that is posted at altitude (see link and photo in earlier messages in this thread). You can google it and then google translate it but there is no explicit mention of cost recovery or the amount of a potential fine in this text.
Which is again my point: clear and accurate information (about the closure during November to March and the risk of a large bill) provided to potential pilgrims long before their last night or first and only half day in SJPP may act as a deterrent for some.
Two Brazilian pilgrims crossing the Route Napoleon ran into difficulties with the weather and contacted the emergency services by radio from the Izandorre refuge hut. They were rescued using an off-road vehicle - probably the one mentioned in a press article yesterday. In a post yesterday which has since been removed from the APOC Facebook group one young man described the treacherous conditions which he and a companion encountered crossing the high-level route despite it being officially closed and his companion's hypothermia symptoms. It appears there are still people ignoring the closure and running into dangerous situations.
http://navarra.elespanol.com/articu...ndorre-roncesvalles/20170313192457102257.html
http://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/20...quieren-un-vehiculo-para-rescates-en-la-nieve
Sometimes people only get a clear understanding or education when they make a choice in the backcountry. I doubt very much this father & son will forget how quickly the elements or weather (nature)changed their situation. They survived so it turned out good. Nature does educate. This will not be the last situation of people ignoring or making a choice to take this route in the winter.I don't quite understand this last sentence. I am still a (perhaps delusional) believer in education. Many here are members of camino associations, give talks to future pilgrims, write books and pamphlets read by future pilgrims. I hope that they do not only extol the wonders of walking the camino but also provide solid and accurate information. That's why I'm often interested in how and why something happened and how it can be prevented in future. It's more helpful than just expressing indignation, in my humble view.
For those of us who purchase good quality travel insurance, including heli rescue if needed, do you think the cost of rescue would still be covered by said insurance for someone choosing to ignore sign posted warnings?Found something on the costs that is neither anectodal nor a news article. Nothing on fines, though. So the costs that may be billed to you for a rescue operation can hit you anywhere and in many situations, not only on the top stretch of the route Napoleon. It is covered by an extensive and long law for Navarra (other regions have something similar) and you find it here http://www.lexnavarra.navarra.es/detalle.asp?r=28015 - LEY FORAL 7/2001, DE 27 DE MARZO, DE TASAS Y PRECIOS PÚBLICOS. This is the original version, without any later amendments. Mark it for future reference.
Article 51bis has the whole list of items that may be billed to you for a rescue operation, ranging from 30 EUR/h for each member of the rescue staff taking part to the 1400 EUR for your helicopter evacuation.
Para 1c is the clue: Rescate en zonas de riesgo o de difícil acceso, cuando sea debido a conductas imprudentes o temerarias del beneficiario - which is something like "may be imposed/billable for rescue in areas that are risk-prone or difficult to access and when due to imprudent or reckless behaviour [of the person to be rescued].
For those of us who purchase good quality travel insurance, including heli rescue if needed, do you think the cost of rescue would still be covered by said insurance for someone choosing to ignore sign posted warnings?
I'm disappointed in you. It is obvious that people often don't bother to read subsequent replies in a thread or click on a link and read up on it but to paraphrase Cesar: Et tu, Felipe? .
It's like those skiers who fancy off-track and have no idea of the dangers of avalanches. "Me la juego!" I'll risk it. That's where the shoe hurts.
Even in the movie The Way the Route Napoléon was shown to be a dangerous place.The Way is not a movie. It can be a dangerous place to be.
I think you misunderstood me. I was not referring to myself, but thinking of the father/son in that rescue situation, just wondering if the rescue cost billed to them would possibly be covered if they had purchased insurance. Personally, I always take the Valcarlos route. My insurance is for peace of mind if I'd break my foot!You should not think this question let alone ask it or expect a reply on a public forum. Seriously, don't worry about it, don't do it, now that you are a well informed traveler.
Simple advice for anyone who believes their life is not complete if they have not walked the route Napoleon in the Pyrenees:
- Don't start on any day in Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar.
- If in Apr, May, Jun, Jul, Aug, Sep, Oct, the route is closed or the weather so bad that you are advised not to walk, wait until the conditions have improved.
- Come back another time for a bit of vacation in SJPP or any of the lovely places near it and go for your walk.
Found something on the costs that is neither anectodal nor a news article. Nothing on fines, though. So the costs that may be billed to you for a rescue operation can hit you anywhere and in many situations, not only on the top stretch of the route Napoleon. It is covered by an extensive and long law for Navarra (other regions have something similar) and you find it here http://www.lexnavarra.navarra.es/detalle.asp?r=28015 - LEY FORAL 7/2001, DE 27 DE MARZO, DE TASAS Y PRECIOS PÚBLICOS. This is the original version, without any later amendments. Mark it for future reference.
Article 51bis has the whole list of items that may be billed to you for a rescue operation, ranging from 30 EUR/h for each member of the rescue staff taking part to the 1400 EUR for your helicopter evacuation.
Para 1c is the clue: Rescate en zonas de riesgo o de difícil acceso, cuando sea debido a conductas imprudentes o temerarias del beneficiario - which is something like "may be imposed/billable for rescue in areas that are risk-prone or difficult to access and when due to imprudent or reckless behaviour [of the person to be rescued].
Whilst my knowledge of ALL travel insurance policies is incomplete, my travel insurance does mention in the exclusions - and breaches of civil laws (as in the case of our Brazilian friends) would render the policy null & void. So I doubt your insurance company would pay up to cover your fine or the cost of you calling in a civil helicopter to evacuate you. Anybody who has had dealings with insurance companies will be aware that they will always try to find a way of not paying up!! CheersFor those of us who purchase good quality travel insurance, including heli rescue if needed, do you think the cost of rescue would still be covered by said insurance for someone choosing to ignore sign posted warnings?
You didn't miss much. After two chapters I ditched it and put it back on the donativo table where I found it. I quickly learned why it looked so unused.The two Brazilian pilgrims who were rescued were probably fans of Paulo Coelho. Following his description of taking four days to wander between SJPDP and Roncesvalles (if I have it right, I never had the patience to read the book).
Probably the nice new rescue vehicle is all paid for now by the hapless Brazilians.
The insurance I purchased probably has a clause in it like that, too. Now I wonder if I (and others) wouldn't be covered in a rescue operation on the Camino for an accident we could have. Possibly they would consider walking the Camino reckless and risk taking in and of itself!Whilst my knowledge of ALL travel insurance policies is incomplete, my travel insurance does mention in the exclusions - and breaches of civil laws (as in the case of our Brazilian friends) would render the policy null & void. So I doubt your insurance company would pay up to cover your fine or the cost of you calling in a civil helicopter to evacuate you. Anybody who has had dealings with insurance companies will be aware that they will always try to find a way of not paying up!! Cheers
He didn't. Fake news.I read somewhere he later admitted he didn't even walk the entire Camino Frances.
The first option would have been me. I didn't know and didn't know what I didn't know. I made the mistake of trusting the folk who supposedly did know to let me know what I didn't know. Lesson learned. I value the kind folk in the pilgrim office at SJPdP and would never walk without consulting them. As for anyone else..."
He who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know, is a fool; Avoid him.
He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't know, is hopeful; Teach him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, is wise; Follow him.
"
Old Chinese saying.
I'm sure many people do and have walked it successfully in bad, winter conditions and it's far from certain death. I would just have to wonder why would you want to? I'm sure the pilgrims of old (medieval, etc) didn't. They knew better. The journey was enough of a risk without hypothermia.Is anyone keeping statistics on the number of people who follow route Nappie (ignoring the closure) in the winter and are successful?
Or is it certain death?
It's that hype. The myth seems pretty intransigent that the Napoleon Route is the 'real' Camino and anything else is not. The idea has the same stickiness as the other ridiculous myth of a 'whole camino.'I would just have to wonder why would you want to? I'm sure the pilgrims of old (medieval, etc) didn't. They knew better. The journey was enough of a risk without hypothermia.
I bet some people watch the movie and want to walk the Napoleon in the snow like the character "Daniel" did (unsuccessfully).It's that hype. The myth seems pretty intransigent that the Napoleon Route is the 'real' Camino and anything else is not. The idea has the same stickiness as the other ridiculous myth of a 'whole camino.'
Thanks Hollywood.
Not your fault. But lesson learned.The first option would have been me. I didn't know and didn't know what I didn't know. I made the mistake of trusting the folk who supposedly did know to let me know what I didn't know. Lesson learned. I value the kind folk in the pilgrim office at SJPdP and would never walk without consulting them. As for anyone else...
I'm sure many people do and have walked it successfully in bad, winter conditions and it's far from certain death. I would just have to wonder why would you want to? I'm sure the pilgrims of old (medieval, etc) didn't. They knew better. The journey was enough of a risk without hypothermia.
In Afghanistan the Taliban (Al Queda etc) stop almost all offensive actions when winter arrives. The country is quite the rugged wilderness and a lot of high elevations. Heavy snowfall, blocked mountain passes. They know to stay out of the cold. Come the spring thaw, it's back to work. The "fighting season" as they call it.
Having been to both places I realize that the Pyrenees at the Spanish Border by no means resembles in most ways (and elevation) the mountains of Ghazni Province, Afghanistan, but they do both have their risks whilst walking in bad weather. That doesn't change.Why? Mountains covered in snow are beautiful. Cold clean air is a fantastic experience as is getting sunburn on the roof of your mouth from reflected sunlight.
Risk zone for Hypothermia is 40 - 60 F, well above freezing. Sure you can get it at lower temperatures ... but people who go out in such temperatures usually at least wear a coat. The risk zone is where people usually get into trouble.
Napoleon is not 'high elevation'. Pretty much all of Afghanistan is at a higher elevation. I've not experienced winter in that part of Spain but my impression is that winters are 'mild' at least by my 'standards'. Napoleon doesn't get 'heavy snow' enough to cause 'blocked passes' as per the 'high elevations' of Afghanistan. It doesn't get 'cold' as I understand 'cold' to mean in Afghanistan (and here in Canada). You are comparing oranges to onions ... yeah they are both fruit but there the comparison ends.
Pilgrimage isn't a military campaign. You rely on that which you carry and the fixed services at SJPdP and Roncesvalles instead of military logistics that get stopped by a few snowflakes and deliver shorts in winter and parkas in summer.
I could make a couple of other observations in that the people who are getting into trouble are from places such as Brazil and Korea where there is not much opportunity for exposure to harsh winter conditions. Koreans in particular have a 'reputation' on the big mountains such as Aconcagua and Everest.
Having said all this ... next time I go out into the woods for a 'three hour tour', I'll find myself in trouble ... and justice will be served, as it were.
I'm sure the 'at sea' rule applies at sea but there was no sea within sight and also there was 'no doubt' when we set off either. We had done all our homework, packed accordingly and consulted all available oracles. It was scary but we actually had the resources within our packs to survive a night in adverse conditions at that time of year on the mountain. Certainly, we would not have been comfortable but chances are we would have survived.Not your fault. But lesson learned.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
At sea, we have a golden rule: If you are in doubt, act as if there is no doubt. Has saved many lives.
Having been to both places I realize that the Pyrenees at the Spanish Border by no means resembles in most ways (and elevation) the mountains of Ghazni Province, Afghanistan, but they do both have their risks whilst walking in bad weather. That doesn't change.
Again, my point is why do it when the local government says the route is closed? If you want to go risk your arse, go do it somewhere that if you do get in trouble due to poor judgement, nobody's life is risked going to rescue you. Pick a more remote spot and head off. Maybe the griffon vultures dine, maybe they don't.....
I see it as a blanket rule that has to be applied. The local government has to assume the worst. Look at everyone as being at an unnecessary risk. That might hurt a few feelings, but it has to be that way.This is a sea change from the theme so far in this thread about 'boldly and stupidly going where no man ought to go'.
I am asking whether the risk is being overstated because of a few unprepared people getting in over their heads.
When do you get fined? Before you get into trouble or after you get rescued?
Waka, You read my mind on that one !!!!!!!!There will always be people that will ignore signs. What annoys me is that they are putting the rescue services lives at risk because of their own stupidity.
Enough said, go and have a coffee and calm down.
I see it as a blanket rule that has to be applied. The local government has to assume the worst. Look at everyone as being at an unnecessary risk. That might hurt a few feelings, but it has to be that way.
Why are there warning stickers on objects such as electric fans, that say not to put your finger in it while its in use? It's there because someone has put their finger in one.
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