- Time of past OR future Camino
- Some in the past; more in the future!
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Many thanks, @jungleboy for your work in getting to this point. All the best to each one beginning today.Hi all,
This is the thread to discuss the first module - La Historia del Camino - of the online course titled El Camino de Santiago, Patrimonio de la Humanidad para un mundo global being offered by the University of Santiago de Compostela and MiríadaX.
The course is now live. Feel free to discuss the course content, any dudas you have may have with language or anything else relevant to the first module in this thread.
If you have not yet signed up at MiríadaX and registered for the course, see this general thread - Free online course about the camino (in Spanish) - that includes details and tips about how to join.
Happy studying!
Unfortunately the texts are PDFs of photocopies so they are not conducive to pasting into a machine translation. I read pretty well in Spanish so my plan is to read the texts and take notes in English for my own learning and to share here. I'm hoping to start with the first one tonight so we'll see!I am going to put the texts into translate & hope it makes sense
Thank you! Greatly appreciated. I've been trying to figure out a way to translate online, but as you say, not happening. If anyone has any ideas, please pass them along!Unfortunately the texts are PDFs of photocopies so they are not conducive to pasting into a machine translation. I read pretty well in Spanish so my plan is to read the texts and take notes in English for my own learning and to share here. I'm hoping to start with the first one tonight so we'll see!
Yes! I have downloaded the PDF, used Adobe Acrobat Pro to switch to landscape, and saved that version. Anyone who wants this version can send me a PM and I'll send it. (I don't want to post here, since it's not really my document to share publicly.)Anyone else here have trouble reading PDFs sideways?
Las peregrinaciones a Santiago durante la Edad Moderna, lejos de iniciar su etapa de decadencia definitiva, atravesarán un momento positivo, con años en los que sin duda se igualaron - sino los superaron - los períodos de prosperidad de la etapa medieval.
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My translation: Pilgrimages to Santiago in the Modern Age, far from being the start of a state of definitive decline, went through positive periods, with years which without a doubt equalled - if not surpassed - the prosperity of the medieval era.
You're welcome. I haven't looked at the videos yet as I figured they'd be the 'reward' for wading through the texts!Thanks a lot for this summary. It is generally consistent with the content of the videos, right?
Made me giggle as I share your approach. I’ve now struggled through the second text, the one written by Antón Pombo (he writes articles for the Gronze website, btw). I‘m looking forward to another of your summaries! The summary you posted about the text on the decline of the pilgrimage after the Middle Ages and before developments in the 19th century and beyond is excellent!You're welcome. I haven't looked at the videos yet as I figured they'd be the 'reward' for wading through the texts!
I sometimes take that approach too. However, sometimes it makes no more sense than wearing too-tight shoes for 25 km so that you will be rewarded with crocs at the end of the day.I haven't looked at the videos yet as I figured they'd be the 'reward' for wading through the texts!
Haha! My comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek as I generally enjoy reading in Spanish, although these texts are a bit more challenging than what I usually read.I sometimes take that approach too. However, sometimes it makes no more sense than wearing too-tight shoes for 25 km so that you will be rewarded with crocs at the end of the day.
I guess it's a win-win situation: you benefit from writing the summaries and we benefit from reading them.
Agreed. I am sure there is a copyright law that would prohibit them from transcribing into a readable PDF, but it would have been so much easier to read and translate.I am now on the third document. I have to say, I find it so annoying that they have chosen such poor reproductions of their documents, It is their first essay into a MOOC, if I have read correctly. I will, at an appropriate moment, comment, so they know they might have to upgrade the version of the material they propose, or at least the readability of that material. If this is a rant, take it as over!
@linksterI was able to scan (OCR), and translate La invención del sepulcro de Santiago y la difusión del culto jacobeo to English. I am sure it is not perfect. I am not sure I will have as much success with the others due to the quality of the original scans.
I do appreciate @jungleboy Jungle Notes.
Santa Eulalia — the same Santa Eulalia outside Lugo on the Primitivo where you can visit a spectacular Roman crypt? For those who haven’t heard of it, check here. Or here (good pictures).Further, the burial of the bishop of Iria in Santiago indicates that the episcopal seat was no longer in Santa Eulalia as it had been in the sixth and seventh centuries and was now in Santiago.
For 'rabbit-holers' such as yourself I should have specified that the contemporary name was Santa Eulalia but the text says it has been called Santa María since the 11th century and is near Padrón, so it's not the one you're thinking of.
I think that was all that was in the original PDF.@linkster
Of this text, only pages 59-68 have appeared in my copy of the the English translation. That gives me a good start. Thank you. I do not know whether others have received more complete English texts.
Thanks for the reply. I had checked earlier against the version that I downloaded that ended on page 68. I just redownloaded and can now see the full text. IDK what happened. but it was only partially complete. Thanks for being persistent, and sorry or any confusion.@linkster
Your English copy of "La invencion del sepulcro" ends at the bottom of page 68 of the original Spanish text, which ends at page 83. Page 68 ends with the word "Segun", translated into English as "According". This is the beginning of a new sentence, which continues on page 69 in the Spanish. I appreciate this translation, as far as it goes, but am just advising readers with little time or skill to read the Spanish of what is, and is not, available in the English text. I don't know how much of the Spanish of this text I shall end up reading. Thanks for giving me a good start in English.
I am really sorry for being a nuisance, but I have just gone through all the versions of "La invencion del sepulcro" in this thread and somehow cannot find a text that goes further than the first two lines of page 6 in the English translation: the same as previously. Did you perhaps omit to save the full version? If a complete English translation is somewhere in this thread, could you please give me the number of the post, so that I can copy it?Thanks for the reply. I had checked earlier against the version that I downloaded that ended on page 68. I just redownloaded and can now see the full text. IDK what happened. but it was only partially complete. Thanks for being persistent, and sorry or any confusion.
The lid of Teodomiro's sarcophagus is currently in the small side chapel where Gambino's Matamoros statue with the concealing flower bouquet used to be, see news article here and photos below:I have now seen pictures of Teodomiro’s tomb, discovered in 1957, but have had difficulty finding its location in the Santiago Cathedral. I would definitely like to see it the next time I am in Santiago. Can anyone orient me?
I've been to Santiagüiño do Monte. A beautiful peaceful place, accessed turning right at Fuente del Carmen and then looking carefully for a small cobbled street on the left leading to the climb up 132 steps. I was completely alone when I visited. I missed the fountain where St. James is said to have caused water to flow when he thrust his staff into solid stone.Has anyone ever visited Santiagüiño do Monte outside of Padrón? I had known that St. James was reputed to have gone to Galicia after Jesus’ death, but I had no idea that there is an identified place, including the steps in which he was able to hide in times of danger.
Thank you so much for your summaries ! It help me to be able to go on with the book club at the same time ! Soon be ready for the first test .It s fun to be somehow a little bit back to student times with a challenge !Thank you @kirkie and @Kathar1na for your lovely comments. Too kind!
That was the hope! I haven't made as much time for the course so far as I should have, but hopefully I'll be done with the texts by tomorrow latest and can move on to the rest of the material.
Thank you Jungleboy that is so useful.Here are all my notes from the four texts of the first module in one PDF if that's helpful for anyone.
@jungleboy, did you get any sense about whether pilgrims with means also stayed in the albergues, or whether they went to private accommodations? I’m imagining that the tourist trade wasn’t very developed back then, unless there was one associated exclusively/predominantly with the camino as there is now.The infrastructure responded to the religious, economic, political and cultural needs of the camino and of pilgrims.
Thanks a lot !Thank you Jungleboy that is so useful.
Great question! Going back over the text, the answer is that the pilgrims with means did stay at the albergues, at least in their first iteration as monastic albergues in the 11th century. At the top of page 75, the article says that pilgrims in this era were still 'socially distinguished' people who arrived at the monasteries with money ('recursos económicos') and letters of recommendation from other monasteries. It mentions two pilgrim 'caravans' in particular from the second half of the 11th century, one that was led by a monk and another by the archbishop of Lyon, that stayed at albergues.@jungleboy, did you get any sense about whether pilgrims with means also stayed in the albergues, or whether they went to private accommodations? I’m imagining that the tourist trade wasn’t very developed back then, unless there was one associated exclusively/predominantly with the camino as there is now.
Fantastic. Thank you so much.Here are all my notes from the four texts of the first module in one PDF if that's helpful for anyone.
Thank you so much, @jungleboy. I have not read another word since I last posted, so I have to catch up, then will read your notes. Some clocks moved on during the night, and I just changed the hands on two that are dinosaurs, so i think that means I am an hour short of time today. Never mind, it is raining so instead of walking I will read this morning, and catch up a little! ( I did walk twice yesterdayHere are all my notes from the four texts of the first module in one PDF if that's helpful for anyone.
Since nobody has replied to this yet: The remains of the three skeletons, found during the excavation in the 19th century and believed to be those of Saint James and Theodore and Athanasius, are all kept together in the same silver reliquary box that is on display above the white marble altar in the crypt.I assume that the two disciples who brought Santiago’s body to Spain, Teodoro and Athanasius, are also buried in the crypt, but I have not been able to find pictures and confess that the last time I was down there I was not looking for those tombs
It didn’t surprise me. The authenticity of the remains had been questioned and even ridiculed at least since the Reformation, ie since 500 years ago, but I don’t think that the Priscillian theory played a great role then and in subsequent centuries. In essence, the question of the authenticity of the relics didn’t play a great role throughout history for the phenomenon of the pilgrimage to Santiago as such.And is anyone else surprised that there has not been any discussion of the debate over whether Santiago is actually buried in the cathedral? The Priscillian theory and all of that, so repeatedly discussed/debated on the forum years ago.
I don't remember any specific mention of that either. As I put in the notes, at certain times the albergues housed (and sometimes even preferred) local people who needed assistance, so even though people of other faiths would have been very unlikely to undertake the pilgrimage, it's possible that they could have stayed in albergues under this form. But as also noted, the albergues were always under religious (Christian) administration, so this may have impacted who was able to stay there. And while not directly related to albergues, the text also mentions that Muslim merchants were regularly seen on the camino with letters of safe passage from the king of Castile and León.One thing I noticed - always with the proviso that my Spanish vocabulary has tremendous holes and I guess more text than I can actually read - in the text about the albergues is the absence of any mention of non-Christians being cared for in the albergues or that they even stayed there.
That's how I read it too.I picked up another tiny nugget of information. It concerns the Compostelas whose monthly and annual numbers merece ser analizado con precaución por lo qui atañe a la presencia de ciertas peregrinaciones colectivas católicas a las que no se les han aplicado las normas estipuladas (realizar a pie los 100 ultimós kilómetros, o en bicicleta o a caballo los 200 ultimos).
Correct me if I am wrong but I take this to mean that the Cathedral authorities reserve the right to grant Compostelas to certain collective Catholic groups of pilgrims even when they had not strictly complied with the common rules (having to cover the last 100 km on foot or the last 200 km on bike or horseback). For future reference perhaps when a debate is in danger of heating up again.
I've been to Santiagüiño do Monte outside of Padrón. I made the climb on my last Camino.I have watched the videos and read @jungleboy’s excellent summaries of the texts and now have a few questions. I am pretty sure this is the right time to ask them, but if I’m out of order, let me know.
Has anyone ever visited Santiagüiño do Monte outside of Padrón? I had known that St. James was reputed to have gone to Galicia after Jesus’ death, but I had no idea that there is an identified place, including the steps in which he was able to hide in times of danger. It was interesting to hear that there was a little saying whose gist was if you go to Santiago and not Padrón you really haven’t done the pilgrimage. For those who have walked the Salvador, that’s immediately reminiscent of “Quien va a Santiago y no al Salvador (statue in the Oviedo Cathedral), visita al criado y no al Señor.“
I have now seen pictures of Teodomiro’s tomb, discovered in 1957, but have had difficulty finding its location in the Santiago Cathedral. I would definitely like to see it the next time I am in Santiago. Can anyone orient me?
I assume that the two disciples who brought Santiago’s body to Spain, Teodoro and Athanasius, are also buried in the crypt, but I have not been able to find pictures and confess that the last time I was down there I was not looking for those tombs.
And is anyone else surprised that there has not been any discussion of the debate over whether Santiago is actually buried in the cathedral? The Priscillian theory and all of that, so repeatedly discussed/debated on the forum years ago.
Thanks again to @jungleboy.
Wendy went on our CP last year. It was raining the day we were in Padrón so I skipped it but she said it was cool and it looked interesting on the video, so ... next time!Has anyone ever visited Santiagüiño do Monte outside of Padrón? I had known that St. James was reputed to have gone to Galicia after Jesus’ death, but I had no idea that there is an identified place, including the steps in which he was able to hide in times of danger.
I opened in Preview(Mac) and could then turn it around , print , download and probably translate separate pages elsewhere ? google. Will try that nextAnyone else here have trouble reading PDFs sideways?
I remember coming across a text (not in this course) about how the hospital in Roncesvalles cared for all, not just Christians but Jews and heretics and others as well. But aside from that, I'm not sure if there was much evidence of non-Christians being pilgrims, and the course texts (at least as reported in Jungleboy's notes) seemed to suggest that the albergues/hospitals limited themselves to pilgrims and locals (presumably ill locals or those affiliated with the brotherhood) and excluded "false pilgrims". I'm not sure if, in the Middle Ages, non-Christians would have been accepted as "true pilgrims".One thing I noticed - always with the proviso that my Spanish vocabulary has tremendous holes and I guess more text than I can actually read - in the text about the albergues is the absence of any mention of non-Christians being cared for in the albergues or that they even stayed there. I know about convivencia but since the major medieval pilgrimage routes were not in Al-Andalus, there cannot have been much convivencia to speak of anyway. There must have been Jewish travellers in particular in the Middle Ages. Is there anything about Camino albergues in this respect in any of the texts?
I've now posted five comments in a row. Let's have a bit of an exchange. Nobody is expecting a scholarly discussion ...
I am aware of the Roncesvalles poem ... some have described it as PR that paints a rosy pictureI remember coming across a text (not in this course) about how the hospital in Roncesvalles cared for all, not just Christians but Jews and heretics and others as well. But aside from that, I'm not sure if there was much evidence of non-Christians being pilgrims
A young woman I knew, recently departed from this life, set off from home in Zaragoza and relied on the welcome of locals along the Camino Frances. She offered whatever she could do for them in return. I refer to about 20 years ago. RIP, dear Pili.I am aware of the Roncesvalles poem ... some have described it as PR that paints a rosy picture. Muslim and Jewish inhabitants of Hispanic and elsewhere didn't go on pilgrimage to Santiago but they did travel for commercial and diplomatic reasons and must have stayed somewhere?
As to the medieval pilgrims, I read in other sources that there were three kinds of hospitality: monasteries; hospital/hostels funded by other institutions or by individuals, both ecclesiastical and secular; and individuals who provided accommodation in their homes, with or without payment from their guests. We seem to know next to nothing about the last group, apart from occasional references to dishonest inn keepers.
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