- Time of past OR future Camino
- Some in the past; more in the future!
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This second module looks more daunting ... there is also a encuesta with some of the questions looking a little out of place at this early stage. Is there a question about this on the foro? I don't understand all of the foro posts but I understood yoursThis is the thread to discuss the second module
Yes there is. Someone asked why it was in module II and the answer was that it's because that's the module of the course director, but he said we could do it at the end of the course if we prefer.This second module looks more daunting ... there is also a encuesta with some of the questions looking a little out of place at this early stage. Is there a question about this on the foro? I don't understand all of the foro posts but I understood yours.
¡Vamos a ver!Also, there's a tarea in the second module ... OK, we will cross this bridge when we get to it.
Ah, it now makes sense to me. Thank you so much, @jungleboy! What would we do without you ...Someone asked why it was in module II and the answer was that it's because that's the module of the course director, but he said we could do it at the end of the course if we prefer
It is a bit odd that the author (A. Pombo) chose to go back in time when describing pilgrim rituals. He starts with the 19th century and then goes backwards through travel reports from the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th century. OK, perhaps a welcome change in contrast to the usual approach of other authors but it took me some getting to used to at first.After that, it seems to go back in time starting in the 19th century telling anecdotes about pilgrims
My Spanish vocubulary is very limited so I shouldn't criticise the author for style and elegance of phrases and he hasn't written his text for a reader like me but I often feel that one could express things more simply and clearly ... so I majorly failed to grasp this restoration in the Baroque era. Does it mean that they equipped the statue of Saint James on the High Altar with a cape and a staff and a gourd to make him look more like a pilgrim and less like a bishop or an apostle?The statue was heavily restored in the Baroque era but its original form can still be seen in a famous AD 1324 miniature of Tombo B in the cathedral of Santiago.
At the very end of the text, there is a summary of the evolution of the pilgrim rituals at the Cathedral from the 13th century to today:(The final part of the text references other depictions of the apostle elsewhere in Spain and how they were influenced by this new projection of the apostle in Santiago.)
I updated the post with the correct link to the folder. I must have had one of the file names in the clipboard. Sorry for the confusion. I will continue to post updates to that folder, so additional files should become visible.Can you please check the link? I get an error message. Will delete this post when it's done. Thanks.
I also found it a bit unusual. The author specifically mentions doing this but as I read the sentence below on the last page, it sounds like he's saying that he did it in reverse order but now has to flip it back to actually see the conclusions, which would seem to make reversing the order in the first place a bit pointless.It is a bit odd that the author (A. Pombo) chose to go back in time when describing pilgrim rituals. He starts with the 19th century and then goes backwards through travel reports from the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th century. OK, perhaps a welcome change in contrast to the usual approach of other authors but it took me some getting to used to at first.
I found that a truly strange suggestion.The author suggests that limiting the access of mass tourism to some pilgrim rituals could be the best solution to avoid losing the sense of those rituals definitively.
I was also thinking that the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz was a very important one from my first pilgrimage, which didn't seem to have been discussed (going by the summary). It seemed to be one that had a long history (judging from the impressions in the column) and is one that has been discontinued only recently.I found that a truly strange suggestion.
I remember an earlier forum discussion where I got the impression (can be wrong of course) that this author views travelling to the Saint James site in Santiago as a kind of prerogative of the burdensome long distance pilgrimage on foot that, in his opinion, was "international" from day one, and not as a phenomenon that started locally and regionally and grew into an international (for most of the time European though not encompassing all of Europe in equal measure and now also reaching parts of other continents) phenomenon and a huge success story.
I also would love to share some comments on the history of the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz (middle column) of the Portico de la Gloria and on the Cartulaire de Tournai but I don't want to derail this thread into all sorts of directions as it is better when we concentrate on working through the course material as such. Perhaps at the end of this thread or in a general purpose thread at the end of the course?
I'm enjoying the course and I am now thinking of eventually doing Module IV, too.
I also know how important this aspect - the Patrimonio Histórico del Camino - had become for me. It wasn't as pronounced at the beginning of my long walk to Santiago as it became during the walk (which I did in sections over several years) and as it is now.
From memory: The author of the article laments the fact that today's pilgrims are no longer allowed to place their hand on the portaluz. However, it will be difficult to find a report from a pilgrim who came to Santiago before say the 19th century who reports that this was a pilgrim ritual. More perhaps later ... Does anyone remember in which year this ritual was reported for the first time? Does the author even mention a date and a name? He cites a lot of years and names for the other rituals.I was also thinking that the ritual of placing one's hand on the portaluz was a very important one from my first pilgrimage, which didn't seem to have been discussed (going by the summary). It seemed to be one that had a long history (judging from the impressions in the column) and is one that has been discontinued only recently.
It seems so. Quoting from the third video of this module at the 6:10 mark: "...la misma escultura que todavía hoy esta dentro del cámara en barroco" (the same statue we find today in the Baroque alcove).And can someone confirm that the statue that is currently on display on the High Altar in the cathedral is indeed the one from 1211 and not a replica?
And the Google translations are interesting to compareIt is a bit odd that the author (A. Pombo) chose to go back in time when describing pilgrim rituals. He starts with the 19th century and then goes backwards through travel reports from the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th century. OK, perhaps a welcome change in contrast to the usual approach of other authors but it took me some getting to used to at first.
And another word of encouragement for those who struggle with Spanish as I do: it isn't 30 pages, it's less as the text consists of two language versions: Spanish and Galician.
@linkster did a fantastic job with producing ORCs of the text, then a machine translation from Spanish to English and then putting it all into searchable PDFs! I ran a search for hand through the Rituals text by A. Pombo.Does anyone remember in which year this ritual [placing hand on mullion] was reported for the first time? Does the author even mention a date and a name? He cites a lot of years and names for the other rituals.
The wonders of the internet: Project Gutenberg's Galicia, the Switzerland of Spain, by Annette M. B. MeakinHe also quotes a travel report published in 1909
Thank you so much for asking this question, @jungleboy! Does folio really mean the same as pagina, namely an A4 page? The number of pages suggested for the two tasks seems indeed high.I have asked if English is permitted too and will report back
I am really enjoyig it. GraciasHi all,
This is the thread to discuss the second module - El Patrimonio Histórico del Camino (Historic Heritage of the Camino) - of the online course titled El Camino de Santiago, Patrimonio de la Humanidad para un mundo global being offered by the University of Santiago de Compostela and MiríadaX.
This is the module that I've been looking forward to the most, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment. Feel free to discuss the course content, any dudas (doubts) you have may have with language or anything else relevant to the second module in this thread.
If you have not yet signed up at MiríadaX and registered for the course, see this general thread - Free online course about the camino (in Spanish) - that includes details and tips about how to join. The course is open until May 3 so it's not too late to join!
Happy studying!
That's really interesting. One wonders whether the imprint of the hand was carved there or whether there was an earlier custom of placing a hand on the pillar that created the imprint and then fell out of use, leaving the imprint to inspire later stories, only to be revived years later by women and pilgrims. Or whether women have always been doing it but the results of their actions were later attributed to God as in the reports from the 17th and 18th centuries above.@linkster did a fantastic job with producing ORCs of the text, then a machine translation from Spanish to English and then putting it all into searchable PDFs! I ran a search for hand through the Rituals text by A. Pombo.
Pombo writes in footnote 9: We do not know when this rite [of putting a hand on the column] arose. He quotes a text from clergyman Zádory who visited in 1868 and was told that pilgrims “put their five fingers on the stone ornaments of the column located in the middle to get the certificate of the pilgrimage with their prayers." I think this is the earliest mention of the hand ritual. He also quotes a travel report published in 1909 that says that women had put their hand on the column 'during centuries' to pray to God to have their wish fulfilled of getting pregnant and having a child. That must refer mainly to local pilgrimage, I guess.
Earlier pilgrims do not mention the hand ritual.
The same silence about such a ritual in all other reports before the 19th century although these same pilgrims report, sometimes with emotion, that they placed their hand on the apostle's staff, a relic that was on display in the Cathedral and that is gone now.
- 1726: Pilgrim Manier. One of the few travellers who says something about the configuration resembling five fingers on the column. However, Manier does not mention a pilgrim ritual of placing one's hand on it. Instead, Manier reports that it is an imprint of the hand of God/Christus who pushed the Cathedral building into a different orientation.
- 1672: Pilgrim Jouvin. He reports that Christus walked through the Holy Door when he came to adjust the physical orientation of the Cathedral and “as the truth of this fact they showed us his hand, imprinted on the stone of one of the pillars that is at the entrance of the nave, where Our Lord pushed to move the building."
Thanks so much. I have been working on the 14 pages of the Spanish text, since I was unsure of what OCR meant. I have made it through more than half of the Spanish text, although it is desperately boring. I guess that my Spanish is not as bad as I thought. By sometime tomorrow, I hope to have finished reading it. But I don't know what to do about the missing text, or whether it is significant for the two compositions that I am supposed to make to finish Modullo II. I don't really understand the compositions, which apparently seem to be done in a group, as we are supposed to comment on others' compositions? I connot quite figure out whether my confusion is the result of my inadequate Spanish, or whether it is a result of a new online course being tried out on volunteers who don't have to pay for it if we don't like the muddle that it seems to be in.I just tried the other link that @Albertagirl referenced above, and I received the same message.
El registro con nº de control o id 3216 no existe.
2. I have tried to copy the text of the following: Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia por el emperador Carlos V (1524) y Constituciones… por el rey Felipe II (1590), Santiago: Sebastián Montero y Frayz, 1775 (reimpresión): http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3216 in any language, and I just get a message from the Galician library that id#3216 does not exist.
http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3214
I downloaded two pdf files. You need to click on Recurso electronico first and then on the link that lets you download the scanned pages in one whole document. The system then generates two documents (obra 1 and 2) which you can download.
Although I enjoyed the three modules, and while I have already forgotten much of it, I agree about the course being in a bit of a muddle, both technically and as to the content.the muddle that it seems to be in
Wow. This is technically far beyond my ability. So far, I have replied in my (very basic) Spanish, whenever required to do so, and managed to get through Modullo I. I think that I shall be able to respond to questions to finish Modullo II, but, being a stubborn sort who finishes what I start, I am beginning to wonder why I started. I do want to go on to Modullo III, in order to get from it any useful or interesting information about the pilgrimage. What is the minimum that I must do in order to complete Modullo II? How can I avoid or work around any technical challenges? I admit that I need all the help I can get.Although I enjoyed the three modules, and while I have already forgotten much of it, I agree about the course being in a bit of a muddle, both technically and as to the content.
I've completed the three modules, entered my two compositions, evaluated the compositions of six other participants and had my compositions evaluated by five participants so far. I am still waiting for the sixth person but fear that he/she may have abandoned the course and may never produce an evaluation.
Here are some replies that the lecturer, Miguel Tain Guzman, posted on the forum:
I assume that this means it is not necessary to submit own work to successfully complete the course and to obtain any of the two certificates and/or ECTS credits.
- The text [Constituciones], in old Castilian, is the regulation containing the rules for the operation of the hospital for the sick (enfermerias in the text), located on the first floor of the building, and the pilgrims' albergues, which was on the ground floor, towards the Obradoiro, and separated by sex. You have to look up the rules that applied to pilgrims.
- Remember that the two compositions are voluntary work (not compulsory) The idea is to locate which rules of the Hospital Real are dedicated to pilgrims.
- The course belongs to the University of Santiago de Compostela where, according to its regulations, the official languages are Spanish and Galician, and Portuguese is accepted for academic work. English is not accepted (for the moment). Officially we cannot accept it because of our regulations.
It also means that we cannot enter essays in English and must enter them as Spanish text. I cannot write more than very simple sentences in Spanish. However, it was doable to produce something that I felt was satisfactory, both to me and apparently also to my peers, with the help of Deepl/Google Translate and by repeated forwards and backwards translations and by adapting my original text when the machine translation into Spanish looked iffy to me and I didn't feel confident to be able to correct it properly in Spanish itself.
There are no requirements for starting Modulo III. It can be started independently of the other two modules.I do want to go on to Modullo III, in order to get from it any useful or interesting information about the pilgrimage. What is the minimum that I must do in order to complete Modulo II?
I would like to say that although I also prefer to finish what I start, i know my limitations. The timing of this course is not the best for me. Also, I do not need it, in terms of a step on any ladder. I am very interested in any new knowledge connected with the Camino (multi-faceted) but on my own terms. I will keep the links, and read the documents in my own time. There are learning curves for those producing the course, and this experience will be very useful for them.Wow. This is technically far beyond my ability. So far, I have replied in my (very basic) Spanish, whenever required to do so, and managed to get through Modullo I. I think that I shall be able to respond to questions to finish Modullo II, but, being a stubborn sort who finishes what I start, I am beginning to wonder why I started. I do want to go on to Modullo III, in order to get from it any useful or interesting information about the pilgrimage. What is the minimum that I must do in order to complete Modullo II? How can I avoid or work around any technical challenges? I admit that I need all the help I can get.
You might want to check that you have completely watched all the videos to the very end. Mine says Terminado even though I haven't done the writing tasks.In fact, although I have done everything I can possibly do, my module 2 is still shown as "not finished" because one of the peer evaluations is still missing and I may never receive it. Needless to say that seeing this "not finished" tag each time I sign in annoys me mightily. I just like to see the "Terminado" tag, whether it matters in the greater scheme of things or not.
Oh yes, you are right of course, my memory had failed me, tsk tsk tsk. I, too, see "Terminado" on my screen and all the dots are green when I open module 2 but there is a tag in my mind and that one says "not finished". As to the videos, I had already watched them all, and attentively, and yet one or two dots remained yellow. So I fired up the videos again and let them run unattended, just to see the dots change from yellow to green.You might want to check that you have completely watched all the videos to the very end. Mine says Terminado even though I haven't done the writing tasks.
Have a lovelyI shall have very little time for this today, since it is my birthday and will be the first time that I have been with my family (barring one drop-in visit from a brother) since Christmas. But I do want to go on with it. I was up for a while about 4 am and tried to download the text in Old Castilian. For some reason, I had challenges with the download, and doubt if I shall have time to go through all of it bfore the third of May. Would anyone like to give me a hint and tell me on what pages the relevant information (about regulations for the pilgrims and the local sick) can be found. I know a little already, from reading Pobres, Peregrinos y Enfermos. Separate dormitories by gender for the pilgrims, who may only stay three days. I am finding this article, although somewhat tedious to read in Spanish, has some interesting historical information. It appears that the authorities in Santiago were not nearly as interested in housing and caring for pilgrims as were the Reyes Católicos. I shall return to this later, probably tomorrow, and thanks to all for help.
Exactly my sentiments. I dropped out of active participation in this thread, but am glancing at it each day. I hope to get some more of the materials covered before the course closes, so all these tips are helpful.I would like to say that although I also prefer to finish what I start, i know my limitations. The timing of this course is not the best for me. Also, I do not need it, in terms of a step on any ladder. I am very interested in any new knowledge connected with the Camino (multi-faceted) but on my own terms. I will keep the links, and read the documents in my own time. There are learning curves for those producing the course, and this experience will be very useful for them.
I hope you manage to reconcile yourself to the demands of the course, and succeed in getting to the end of unit 3.
Happy birthday, @Albertagirl, and may you have many caminos in you yet!since it is my birthday
Here are the trnalted documents. No that was not a typo, but a simulated OCR error. This document did not translate as well as the others. It might be like speed reading.The correct link was posted in the forum. Here it is via @Kathar1na:
Wow, you attempted to OCR and machine translate the Regulations of the Hospital that is now the Parador hotel next to the Cathedral in Santiago. Bravo!Here are the trnalted documents. No that was not a typo, but a simulated OCR error. This document did not translate as well as the others. It might be like speed reading.
Same Google Drive folder as the others.
OCREN - Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia.pdf
OCRES - Constituciones del Gran Hospital Real de Santiago de Galicia.pdf
Somewhat belatedly, I have now discovered that there is a link that lets you download a pdf file without going through the hoops described above. Why the course organisers did not provide this link is a question I cannot answer.http://biblioteca.galiciana.gal/gl/consulta/registro.cmd?id=3214
I downloaded two pdf files. You need to click on Recurso electronico first and then on the link that lets you download the scanned pages in one whole document. The system then generates two documents (obra 1 and 2) which you can download.
Thank you so much for this!Below are some of the points that I highlighted. Be aware that I may have misunderstood some of what I tried to decipher. The numbers refer to the page numbers printed on the top left or top right corner of the pages of the Constituciones:
The text does not always make a clear distinction between the poor, the pilgrims and the patients, in my opinion. One of the essays I saw contained some actual analysis and drew comparison between then and now and found some of the attitudes towards patients and their treatment surprisingly modern. There are also instructions about religious acts to be performed at various times throughout the day and at special occasions and the obligation of pilgrims to participate.
- p. 59 - pilgrims can stay three nights in summer and five nights in winter; sick pilgrims who are not contagious and similar patients can stay until they are healthy again; contagious pilgrims (lepra, plague) are not admitted;
- p. 3 & 14 - the hospital must recruit chaplains who know foreign languages; details about how many chaplains and the foreign languages they must know; English is not among the required foreign language knowledge;
- p. 27 - one or two members of the staff have to go to the cathedral and through the streets of Santiago, at least twice per day, to look for sick pilgrims and take them to the hospital/albergue as they may not be aware of its existence and service for pilgrims;
- p. 28 - don’t let pilgrims wait during the night in front of the main door and find them dead in the morning;
- p. 33 - sick patients have to draw up a testament but are not obliged to donate any of their possession to the hospital;
- p. 39-42 - beds must be of good quality, chestnut or walnut wood, equipped with cushions and other material; necessity to have calmness and quietness in the hospital and albergue area; patients and pilgrims must be treated with respect, no bad words against them (each of them represents Jesus Christ);
- p. 12-13 - when a pilgrim dies, a member of the hospital staff must go through the streets of Santiago with a bell and announce the death so that those who wish to do so can attend the funeral; the funeral has to be a proper funeral with clergy staff present and religious ornaments in use.
OK Now I'm really lost. I completed Modelulo II thru Entrevista a Daniel Lorenzo and then can't seem to go on from there. I try to open "EL Hospital Real de la Plaza.." and it sends me to a strange page with a link to biblioteca.galiciana which is no good. Darn it! Then below is says Entregar tu tarea? What tarea was that. Geez and I was really enjoying this.I successfully completed Module 1 and 3 (very interesting!) and am now back to tackle this one which was interrupted by Easter. I am loving adding some historical depth to my Camino experience. I appreciate that is strengthening my Spanish skills ( poor to a little at best). Thanks all for the feedback and discussion I read here.
Somewhat belatedly, I have now discovered that there is a link that lets you download a pdf file without going through the hoops described above. Why the course organisers did not provide this link is a question I cannot answer.
Click on this link and you are done and have the complete text of the Constituciones on your computer and your screen.
Thanks but that doesn't help me continue with the lessons.Dinah, see @Kathar1na's solution:
The next 2 modules are the essays. I left these and did the test which I passed. I will start module 3 tomorrowThanks but that doesn't help me continue with the lessons.
OK. I'll try that.The next 2 modules are the essays. I left these and did the test which I passed. I will start module 3 tomorrow
It worked. I just took the test and passed with 75! On to Modulo 3.The next 2 modules are the essays. I left these and did the test which I passed. I will start module 3 tomorrow
There is an "Unsubscribe" link at the bottom of these emails. When you click on it, you are taken to a webpage where you see two buttons, one saying "Don't send me emails like this". Click on it to confirm.unsolicited and irrelevant email advertisements, some from academia.edu
Thank you. I have done so, although I am not sure about the email which came in under someone's name. And I am somewhat concerned that Academia.edu might also manage all the references which I receive for a journal on Ancient Near Eastern Studies. But as I never get around to actually reading these articles, it may be time that I admit to myself that I never will.There is an "Unsubscribe" link at the bottom of these emails. When you click on it, you are taken to a webpage where you see two buttons, one saying "Don't send me emails like this". Click on it to confirm.
The other button is labelled as "Manage all my email settings". It takes you to another webpage where you can remove the "ticks" for all other email notifications from Academia.edu.
Well, I got through all the modulos passing I and II. I flunked Modulo III three times even though I went back and listened to it. They only give you three tries. Damn! Well, there goes 40 Euros! I never was a good test taker. Bummer
Thank you. Yes I was very frustrated as I passed the other two practically guessing and reallyMy sympathies. I found Modulo III challenging, in particular, the multiple choice test. But I found much of the material interesting, and had no desire to go on beyond Modulo III, so the grade did not much matter. I can see how it would be frustrating to have paid for the course and not be able to get credit for it.
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