- Time of past OR future Camino
- Frances 15,16,18
VdlP 23, Invierno 23, Fisterra 23
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good point, Mark - and I didn't say what my reasons pre-camino were - I don't even know if I implied it - but for me it was a hard-to-describe in words walk with Spirit.If you look at definitions of a pilgrimage or a pilgrim, they share the common denominator of involving religion or spirituality, and the destination is usually a place of religious importance, Mecca, Santiago, Lourdes, Rome, Jerusalem, several locations for the Hindu and Buddhist faiths, etc.
I'll play the bad guy here and say in my opinion, if you go on any of those journeys and your reason to do so has nothing to do with religion or spirituality, then you are simply a walker. A tourist. I mean that's not a bad thing. No big deal if religion isn't your thing. Live and let live, right? As long as we all have a good time and get along it's all good. I met people who told me they were walking the Camino for non-religious or spiritual reasons. Trying to find themselves, Raising money for a cause. Looking for a spouse/partner. Meet other people and see the sights. Physical challenge. Writing a blog with followers ($$$$). Etc.
Wait. Wait. "Looking for a spouse/partner"? Wow. I've seen the ads for those Minute Meetups, where you sit in front of each other, give your best shot, then move along to the next. You can be at your peak for a minute but a whole Camino? Come on. By the time you get to the Cathedral you will know so much about the potential mate that you'll be glad you're flying off to different countries.If you look at definitions of a pilgrimage or a pilgrim, they share the common denominator of involving religion or spirituality, and the destination is usually a place of religious importance, Mecca, Santiago, Lourdes, Rome, Jerusalem, several locations for the Hindu and Buddhist faiths, etc.
I'll play the bad guy here and say in my opinion, if you go on any of those journeys and your reason to do so has nothing to do with religion or spirituality, then you are simply a walker. A tourist. I mean that's not a bad thing. No big deal if religion isn't your thing. Live and let live, right? As long as we all have a good time and get along it's all good. I met people who told me they were walking the Camino for non-religious or spiritual reasons. Trying to find themselves, Raising money for a cause. Looking for a spouse/partner. Meet other people and see the sights. Physical challenge. Writing a blog with followers ($$$$). Etc.
Yeah, ain't making that up. Was told that by a young, European woman. She said several of her friends had walked it for the same reason. Who knows, maybe they figure they meet nicer guys on a pilgrimage? On my first Camino, at the peak of the season, it looked like the dating game with the younger pilgrim set. Ain't knocking it. If I was in my twenties again, I'd definitely walk it just to meet the young ladies.Wait. Wait. "Looking for a spouse/partner"? Wow. I've seen the ads for those Minute Meetups, where you sit in front of each other, give your best shot, then move along to the next. You can be at your peak for a minute but a whole Camino? Come on. By the time you get to the Cathedral you will know so much about the potential mate that you'll be glad you're flying off to different countries.
My Camino has already started, as soon as I said I wanted to go on Camino. I think about it constantly, I train and carry the backpack, I use the folding toothbrush and micro towel and drink red wine. Perhaps some may start out as tourists or raising money or whatever, but you can't leave a pilgrimage unchanged. God is trying to tell you something, and he has a way of getting his point across you cannot avoid.
As an aside, I wonder how one can compare a long walk with a pilgrimage if one has never hiked a long walk.
I think what makes the Camino so unique is the extensive infrastructure for the modern traveller. You are never in the wild or in danger or away from people. You have tap water, plenty of food, a bed and a roof over your head, public transport and taxis are close by, ATMs and wi-fi or telephone networks in reach, and it's not really as "far away" as a developping country. It allows many people to experience something that they you would not and could not experience otherwise.
This might distinguish the camino experience on the CF, but I would side with Robo inasmuch as he has not included it in his personal list of things that distinguishes a pilgrimage from a long walk. It seems to me intrinsically obvious that one could undertake one's pilgrimage as a hermit. Perhaps not on the CF at the height of summer, but other routes, other destinations and other seasons could be chosen to make this possible.I also noticed that you did not mention the "communal experience" on the road, the exchange with others from all over the world, which is often mentioned by Camino pilgrims - one aspect that definitely distinguishes the Camino from a long trek
I just looked up "pilgrimage" in Wikipedia in a few languages and I think the meaning of pilgrimage has changed with the current revival.
Definition 1: A journey to a religious site to fulfill a religious duty or a promise. The destination is central to the pilgrimage.
Definition 2 (from the English language article): A pilgrimage is a journey or search of moral or spiritual significance.
The definitions are not perfect but then Wikipedia is not an academic or scholarly source.
"Everyone walks their own Camino." True.
I watched the Brierley video as long as I could. He had some good points but he is also selling something, n'est pas?
A pilgrimage is different experience, it is a personal and individual journey to a specific place for a religious reason.
I find the Camino to be much less a personal journey and much more a communal journey for sharing thoughts, friendships, pains, dinners and wine with others.
Some choose to be insular but most walk for the communal aspects of the trek, even when they walk alone and study their own personal thoughts all day long.
If that makes any sense?
Hey, the Camino's roots are solely Christian. It's called the Way of James, as in Saint James. Just the way it is. No matter how you slice it, you're walking the walk of Christian pilgrims whether that was your intent or not.
I never really thought of it as a pilgrimage. To me it was always my journey or being on a trek. It was an adventure for me leaving my lifestyle and comforts of home behind. I enjoyed the walking the most never knowing what the trails ahead will feel like or what the scenery will be. I enjoyed the other pilgrims and when I left home I was always looking forward to having a communal meal but never was able to be part of that. But that is the Camino. You never know what experiences you will challenge or not challenge.I'm very interested to hear the views of others on this question.
I first heard it posed by John Brierley in this talk Or at least a very similar questionI think he merely asks, what is a Pilgrimage.
It was a question I pondered a lot whilst walking. And I talk/write about it a lot on my blog. My views also changed the more I walked and changed again in the last 100 kms to Santiago.
I'll share my thoughts later in the thread, as I don't want to start off with my view.
So what do you think?
We all undertake our Camino for a vast array of reasons. We also all walk (or Cycle) our Camino in different ways.
Did you walk a Pilgrimage? Was it just a pleasant long walk? Or was it something else to you?
What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
Note: This is not intended to be a "My Camino was more valid than yours thread"
I don't disagree with this, but I'd also say there can be a wide divide between religious reasons and spiritual reasons. I met some devout athiests and agnostics who had a very spiritual experience on Camino.If you look at definitions of a pilgrimage or a pilgrim, they share the common denominator of involving religion or spirituality, and the destination is usually a place of religious importance, Mecca, Santiago, Lourdes, Rome, Jerusalem, several locations for the Hindu and Buddhist faiths, etc.
I'll play the bad guy here and say in my opinion, if you go on any of those journeys and your reason to do so has nothing to do with religion or spirituality, then you are simply a walker. A tourist. I mean that's not a bad thing. No big deal if religion isn't your thing. Live and let live, right? As long as we all have a good time and get along it's all good. I met people who told me they were walking the Camino for non-religious or spiritual reasons. Trying to find themselves, Raising money for a cause. Looking for a spouse/partner. Meet other people and see the sights. Physical challenge. Writing a blog with followers ($$$$). Etc.
not to mention the difference that as a non-muslim one is not even allowed the pilgrimage to mecca - while pilgrimages to kailash, santiago, etc can be undertaken by anyone who feels called to do so.When one compares the "treks" along the various Caminos to something like making the pilgrimage to Mecca, there is a big difference. Going to Mecca is a lifelong goal of most Muslims from all over the world. They save money their entire life to make the journey. Personally, I have not witnessed that sort of religious devotion/fervor going to Santiago.
That doesn't make the Camino any less important, just different.
Thank you for sharing this new-to-me video. will complete viewing hopefully soon.I'm very interested to hear the views of others on this question.
I first heard it posed by John Brierley in this talk Or at least a very similar questionI think he merely asks, what is a Pilgrimage.
It was a question I pondered a lot whilst walking. And I talk/write about it a lot on my blog. My views also changed the more I walked and changed again in the last 100 kms to Santiago.
I'll share my thoughts later in the thread, as I don't want to start off with my view.
So what do you think?
We all undertake our Camino for a vast array of reasons. We also all walk (or Cycle) our Camino in different ways.
Did you walk a Pilgrimage? Was it just a pleasant long walk? Or was it something else to you?
What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
Note: This is not intended to be a "My Camino was more valid than yours thread"
There is a Facebook page I look at from time to time that is for Americans pilgrims on the Camino. Recently there was a thread on there debating whether or not the issuance of a compostela in Santiago should be eliminated. I really don't remember what the arguments against the compostela were, but they didn't hold much water, and it almost seemed like they wanted to remove the religious aspect out of it, which I don't get as one does not have to get a compostela. One doesn't even have to walk into the plaza in front of the cathedral. Santiago is a big enough town you could avoid all that altogether. You don't want one don't get one. Go get a celebratory coffee or a beer and just shut-up, but don't rain on the parade of those that want one.
It seemed (my opinion) to be a typical American debate. Bit of a narrow view. It's like their logic is they disagree with the Christian religion aspect of the Camino, yet they still want to walk it, but it should be changed so that they don't have to disagree with it.
Hey, the Camino's roots are solely Christian. It's called the Way of James, as in Saint James. Just the way it is. No matter how you slice it, you're walking the walk of Christian pilgrims whether that was your intent or not.
I concur that this is an interesting discussion.
I found out about the Camino while having a discussion about hiking the Appalachian Trail. My concern was being away so long, about 5 months was my estimate to walk the entire trail. So after hearing about the Camino, I looked it up and decided to walk. I was somewhat driven by the fact I was Catholic and the route ended at the tomb of St. James. So I bought a ticket to London and headed off to the Camino.
The walk in my opinion is introspective and something everyone should be fortunate enough to do in their lifetime at least once. My first day March 23rd, I walked to Roncesvalles. It took me 8 hours and 40 minutes. I was completely exhausted and found joy in the fact I had made it. As the days passed, I discovered that I could think about my life in ways I could not in a normal environment. The Camino provides me with an environment, free of distractions, for self examination. The communal aspect in places like Granon I found refreshing. Sharing meals and conversations with perfect strangers. Some of whom became close friends. The first week I went to bed each night exhausted but those Albergue beds had a healing power that restored my energy for the next days journey. I think the Camino breaks you down and then opens you up to receive a personal message. When I analogize this to my friends, I refer to the movie "Groundhog day". You keep waking up each day and repeating things until you learn what you were meant to learn. While many come with a hope or desire to find something in particular, I would recommend you reflect on what Mick Jagger the great Philosopher has sung "You don't always get what you want but you find sometimes you get what you need".
I also recall my first arrival in Santiago. It was very anticlimactic and disappointing. Not sure what I expected but all the commercialization disappointed me. That, fortunately, was all resolved the next day at the Pilgrim mass as I reflected on the last month with hundreds of other Pilgrims. I spent the next two days sharing meals with my Pilgrim family and about what I had learned about myself along the way.
Was this a walk or a Pilgrimage? I do not think there is a definitive answer to this question nor do I think it matters. I just know it keeps calling me.
Ultreya,
Joe
In my world I include three things in a "pilgrimage".I'm very interested to hear the views of others on this question.
I first heard it posed by John Brierley in this talk Or at least a very similar questionI think he merely asks, what is a Pilgrimage.
It was a question I pondered a lot whilst walking. And I talk/write about it a lot on my blog. My views also changed the more I walked and changed again in the last 100 kms to Santiago.
I'll share my thoughts later in the thread, as I don't want to start off with my view.
So what do you think?
We all undertake our Camino for a vast array of reasons. We also all walk (or Cycle) our Camino in different ways.
Did you walk a Pilgrimage? Was it just a pleasant long walk? Or was it something else to you?
What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
Note: This is not intended to be a "My Camino was more valid than yours thread"
Of the three I am more worried about the physical aspect, but my body will tell me when it needs to stop.In my world I include three things in a "pilgrimage".
1. There is the "physical"aspect of travelling. I include planning and packing. Travel to the starting point. Travel to the end point and the return home.
2. There is the "cerebral" aspect. What goes on in your mind while 1. Is being accomplished. For me this always goes on long after all of 1 is completed.
3. There is the "relational" aspect. How does the inter action with the environment and other people affect both # 1 and # 2.
Those three things make my Caminos a pilgrimage. A long walk is simply a small part of #1.
...at least that is what it means to me.
I noticed that something similar is said in the video, i.e. it takes about two weeks, in his experience, to empty the mind of "chatter" or "clutter" and, later, that he had the best experience when he walked for about 40 days.
I am sort of curious about this but not curious enough to try it out. At one time, I wanted to do the last part in one go (i.e. 1 month) because it is the thing to do but now I have already outgrown this stageand I have no wish to do more than two weeks in one go (on the Frances). I wonder whether the ability to switch off comes with experience; it is probably also a question of individual characteristics and of one's current life situation. I find that it does not take me long these days to switch off, a day or two. What am I missing?
Of the three I am more worried about the physical aspect, but my body will tell me when it needs to stop.
The Cerebral began for me when I decided to embark on this adventure. I keep going in and out of surety, polar opposites almost, I'm excited and looking forward and then I'm scared and want to call the whole thing off. When I am finally walking I look forward to the conflicting emotions and thoughts I will experience.
As for the Relational aspect, don't get me started! I drove all last week to visit family members and put out small fires. Everyone has gone bonkers and is acting out since my little sister passed. I drove, I listened, I bought lunches and walked and held hands and cheerleaded until I was hoarse. Everyone took a little piece of flesh while they could before I left. I called it my "Poor Baby Tour", because they all had such pitiful stories explaining why they were such a mess. Now they know they are on their own, this time is mine, get your stuff together because I can't bail anyone out. Elvis has left the building.
Why is it that family needs you more than ever when you are about to embark on a lengthy solitary pilgrimage? As soon as I decided on my camino, a niece and two nephews, none in or near my home town, decided to get married this summer. As a poor senior, this totally destroyed my budget. Then a brother returned from the Philippines after a business failure, needing much emotional support and considerable financial help to get his affairs in order. Another is returning from the missions and invited me to his cottage, which it turns out will cost me a lot of money. I do not regret attending these weddings and helping my brothers. That is what families do. But the timing is lousy and the financial expectations difficult. I have had to acknowledge that this is all part of my camino. I am going to walk in faith that my needs will be met, both on the camino and when I return home. I suspect that some type of pressure: family, business, financial, health, is common to those who go on pilgrimage. The question is asked: "Do you really mean it?" My honest response is, "Well, I'm still going."As for the Relational aspect, don't get me started!
Why is it that family needs you more than ever when you are about to embark on a lengthy solitary pilgrimage? As soon as I decided on my camino, a niece and two nephews, none in or near my home town, decided to get married this summer. As a poor senior, this totally destroyed my budget. Then a brother returned from the Philippines after a business failure, needing much emotional support and considerable financial help to get his affairs in order. Another is returning from the missions and invited me to his cottage, which it turns out will cost me a lot of money. I do not regret attending these weddings and helping my brothers. That is what families do. But the timing is lousy and the financial expectations difficult. I have had to acknowledge that this is all part of my camino. I am going to walk in faith that my needs will be met, both on the camino and when I return home. I suspect that some type of pressure: family, business, financial, health, is common to those who go on pilgrimage. The question is asked: "Do you really mean it?" My honest response is, "Well, I'm still going."
There is a current wave of secularism sweeping the country in the guise of egalitarianism..a thinly veiled guise for political agenda..which i will vehemently avoid in this forum.There is a Facebook page I look at from time to time that is for Americans pilgrims on the Camino. Recently there was a thread on there debating whether or not the issuance of a compostela in Santiago should be eliminated. I really don't remember what the arguments against the compostela were, but they didn't hold much water, and it almost seemed like they wanted to remove the religious aspect out of it, which I don't get as one does not have to get a compostela. One doesn't even have to walk into the plaza in front of the cathedral. Santiago is a big enough town you could avoid all that altogether. You don't want one don't get one. Go get a celebratory coffee or a beer and just shut-up, but don't rain on the parade of those that want one.
It seemed (my opinion) to be a typical American debate. Bit of a narrow view. It's like their logic is they disagree with the Christian religion aspect of the Camino, yet they still want to walk it, but it should be changed so that they don't have to disagree with it.
Hey, the Camino's roots are solely Christian. It's called the Way of James, as in Saint James. Just the way it is. No matter how you slice it, you're walking the walk of Christian pilgrims whether that was your intent or not.
To begin your research and quest for this manuscript look at the recently redesigned website of Roncesvalles monastery, its thousand year history and vast patrimony.Brierly mentions a medieval document he saw in Roncesvalles that invites not only Christians, but Jews and a long list of religions and vagabonds to come on the pilgrimage. I'd be interested to find out more about the source of this document. Were Christians more tolerant at least for a time in Spain than they were later or than some are today?
Great question, but the answer lies in each of us to accept one another. We in our own way depend on our organized faith to help give us answers, but history proves that leaders of organized faith can take their flock in bad directions. By simply finding our own faith we can make better decisions, rather than just following. The more we seem to expose our hearts to other cultures the more tolerance we can develope. Yet in the same manner when war & evil take control the opposite effect happens. I truly believe if you have a soft heart better decisions are made.Brierly mentions a medieval document he saw in Roncesvalles that invites not only Christians, but Jews and a long list of religions and vagabonds to come on the pilgrimage. I'd be interested to find out more about the source of this document. Were Christians more tolerant at least for a time in Spain than they were later or than some are today?
I can understand that feeling. You may feel that you experience something that they will not experience but should as they would benefit from it and love it.
It's just that I have walked 84 days in total and 1500 km so far (although not continuously), sometimes totally on my own, sometimes with one other person, sometimes with a set group of people, in addition to a lot more mindful walking in previous years, and I feel that I have walked off quite a few things; I have also realised now, with hindsight, that at least my physical and logistical challenge, and yes, even my quest, consisted in reaching the Pyrenees (just reaching them, not even crossing them, I knew that crossing the Bentarte/Lepoeder passes would be nice in good weather but similar to other crossings I have done) so I am also a bit at a sort of spiritual crossroads now.
We pilgrim walkers are starting to become an object of anthropology studies. Going on the Camino and hiking the Appalachian trail are sometimes not only described as spiritual quests but also as rites of passage. Any thoughts on that?
Thank you so very much for sharing that. I had been trying to put my finger on what was making me uncomfortable about this thread, and it is indeed the false dichotomy established at the outset.Last evening, when I had just finished reading this thread, my husband asked me what I was thinking about. I replied, whether the camino was a pilgrimage or a long walk. He did not hesitate in replying 'why does it have to be either/or? Can't it be both?'
This might distinguish the camino experience on the CF, but I would side with Robo inasmuch as he has not included it in his personal list of things that distinguishes a pilgrimage from a long walk. It seems to me intrinsically obvious that one could undertake one's pilgrimage as a hermit. Perhaps not on the CF at the height of summer, but other routes, other destinations and other seasons could be chosen to make this possible.
Last evening, when I had just finished reading this thread, my husband asked me what I was thinking about. I replied, whether the camino was a pilgrimage or a long walk. He did not hesitate in replying 'why does it have to be either/or? Can't it be both?'
I smiled. It was so typical of my husband. Incisive, quick and always to the point. His reason for walking the camino last year, on retirement, was to give thinks for a wonderful working life, which had given him and the family so much, in so many ways. And also because he loves walking, and the camino was such a good first long walk.
He walked the Pennine Way this month, in 13 days. That was something he had wanted to do since he was a teenager. He really enjoyed it, but felt it lacked the purpose that the camino has. I asked him if he would do it again - answer was no. In contrast, he hopes to walk the camino again next year - again to give thanks - when he has completed a project that has been a long time in planning.
And so, taking all the above into perspective, a long walk is hiking, and a pilgrimage is getting away to find yourself, your spirit, your inner core even though (and maybe because) others need you too much. Perhaps others will find their inner strength when they realize we are not there to support them. Perhaps we, as caretakers, will learn to let go of the rush we get when we are called to heal and save.
Thank you so very much for sharing that. I had been trying to put my finger on what was making me uncomfortable about this thread, and it is indeed the false dichotomy established at the outset.
Dougfitz: I understand it is your opinion that the OP started a thread that provided a "false dichotomy", but I think he provided a thought-provoking question that truly gets to the heart of the camino for many of us. We all could walk elsewhere, but we come to the camino (sometimes over and over again) which is described as a pilgrimage trail. What does that mean? I think that is part of the question. I for one, am enjoying the discussion and find it quite enlightening. In purely "objective" black & white wording, you are correct that it is both a long walk and a pilgrimage, but I do not think that is the intent of the OP...not a definition, but a philosophical discussion...that helps integrate the camino he just returned from.Thank you so very much for sharing that. I had been trying to put my finger on what was making me uncomfortable about this thread, and it is indeed the false dichotomy established at the outset.
Why is it so easy to lavish support on others and so difficult to ask for help? Oh I hope I like the person I will find as I walk, because I will have to ask for assistance and I know it will be hard. Some things I just cannot do alone, and even if a Pilgrimage is an inner journey, my outer self will need support.Sounds like you really have started your camino Coleen...your last line describing yourself as a caretaker (with associated reinforcement) combined with your tag line of "Nanas got your back" is revealing what your pilgrimage may be about...getting back to "you". For me, that was the most amazing part of my camino...seeing who was there under all the roles, labels and emotional hooks of loved ones. More importantly, to see this "real" person/soul reflected in all the people I met...and finding that I really liked her. Shedding the resentment and anger to finally see all those people back home as just people trying to do their best...and forgiving. I learned to "let go". Just yesterday as my husband irritated the hell out of me because he had to be "right" about something, I heard myself saying "let it go" and saw him for the wonderful person he is and understood this was his inner script working! Not mine. That peace and guidance from my camino has been a gift.
There is one of the first issues with the false dichotomy that was established. Two of my pilgrimages have been, relatively, short walks. I suggest that many others have the same experience, that is that they can achieve their spiritual journey in a shorter time, if that is what is necessary. It might be a different journey to someone who, as Brierley suggests in his video in the OP, takes two weeks to clear the clutter of work from their mind. I don't know.you are correct that it is both a long walk and a pilgrimage,
the opportunities for quiet reflection offered by St Olav's Way and the CI much more powerful than walking the CF.
there is a thread on the APOC, that began with a lady saying, I don,t care for Jesus, and later another saying that the Camino de Santiago, started as a pagan pilgrimage , they may as well walk around the local mall, I just could,t u stand the thinking , or their ideas of history, it sadden me to read what all was said thereThere is a Facebook page I look at from time to time that is for Americans pilgrims on the Camino. Recently there was a thread on there debating whether or not the issuance of a compostela in Santiago should be eliminated. I really don't remember what the arguments against the compostela were, but they didn't hold much water, and it almost seemed like they wanted to remove the religious aspect out of it, which I don't get as one does not have to get a compostela. One doesn't even have to walk into the plaza in front of the cathedral. Santiago is a big enough town you could avoid all that altogether. You don't want one don't get one. Go get a celebratory coffee or a beer and just shut-up, but don't rain on the parade of those that want one.
It seemed (my opinion) to be a typical American debate. Bit of a narrow view. It's like their logic is they disagree with the Christian religion aspect of the Camino, yet they still want to walk it, but it should be changed so that they don't have to disagree with it.
Hey, the Camino's roots are solely Christian. It's called the Way of James, as in Saint James. Just the way it is. No matter how you slice it, you're walking the walk of Christian pilgrims whether that was your intent or not.
Yeah, it just comes across to me as odd. It's like they are in denial that all roads lead to a Catholic cathedral.There
there is a thread on the APOC, that began with a lady saying, I don,t care for Jesus, and later another saying that the Camino de Santiago, started as a pagan pilgrimage , they may as well walk around the local mall, I just could,t u stand the thinking , or their ideas of history, it sadden me to read what all was said there
Pilgrimage or long walk?
The one thing I take from all the contributions on this question, and having read many many blogs, is that whatever you think it is when you start that isn't what you think it is by the time you finish.
...As for the Relational aspect, don't get me started!...
ThisThank you so very much for sharing that. I had been trying to put my finger on what was making me uncomfortable about this thread, and it is indeed the false dichotomy established at the outset.
There is one of the first issues with the false dichotomy that was established. Two of my pilgrimages have been, relatively, short walks. I suggest that many others have the same experience, that is that they can achieve their spiritual journey in a shorter time, if that is what is necessary. It might be a different journey to someone who, as Brierley suggests in his video in the OP, takes two weeks to clear the clutter of work from their mind. I don't know.
The second issue about the OP is that it suggests Brierley asks this question himself in the video. If he did, I cannot find it. Rather, he quite clearly states that pilgrimage is a spiritual journey, and argues that the Spanish camino routes offer a unique place to undertake such a journey. It might well be a justifiable claim, but clearly Santiago is but one of many pilgrimage destinations available to those who do seek to spend time reflecting on their lives, and use a walk as the way of achieving that. I must admit that I found the opportunities for quiet reflection offered by St Olav's Way and the CI much more powerful than walking the CF.
In some sense, while the pilgrimage is undertaken as a physical journey, it is not that journey at all, but the opportunities that journey provides and how we each individually use them for the spiritual journey we are on.
Last evening, when I had just finished reading this thread, my husband asked me what I was thinking about. I replied, whether the camino was a pilgrimage or a long walk. He did not hesitate in replying 'why does it have to be either/or? Can't it be both?'
I smiled. It was so typical of my husband. Incisive, quick and always to the point. His reason for walking the camino last year, on retirement, was to give thinks for a wonderful working life, which had given him and the family so much, in so many ways. And also because he loves walking, and the camino was such a good first long walk.
He walked the Pennine Way this month, in 13 days. That was something he had wanted to do since he was a teenager. He really enjoyed it, but felt it lacked the purpose that the camino has. I asked him if he would do it again - answer was no. In contrast, he hopes to walk the camino again next year - again to give thanks - when he has completed a project that has been a long time in planning.
Thank you for finding the point he asked the question that he did. I would observe that he did not attempt to create some distinction between the two, but to ask his audience to understand what transformed a long walk into a pilgrimage. Telling, at that point, was that he immediately asked his audience to observe a minute of silence in quiet reflection. The period was far longer than the minute, which might have been another metaphor, an Irish minute, or perhaps poor timekeeping. But the point remains, he was not seeking to create a distinction, but to explain a transformation.Don't shoot me, I thought it was an interesting question to ask, regardless of precisely how Brierley posed it
Thank you for finding the point he asked the question that he did. I would observe that he did not attempt to create some distinction between the two, but to ask his audience to understand what transformed a long walk into a pilgrimage. Telling, at that point, was that he immediately asked his audience to observe a minute of silence in quiet reflection. The period was far longer than the minute, which might have been another metaphor, an Irish minute, or perhaps poor timekeeping. But the point remains, he was not seeking to create a distinction, but to explain a transformation.
I have a stupid question: I am not a native speaker of English; I can of course look up the word "spiritual" in a dictionary but I am still not sure what it means or how most people on the Camino would understand it, and I have been wondering about it for quite a bit. A notice on my credencial says that it is exclusively destined for persons who intend to undertake their pilgrimage with a spiritual approach. Does this refer to (religious) beliefs in the broadest sense or more generally to what we describe as mind/soul/spirit?
I have, however, while trying to learn a bit more about the "thru hikes" stumbled across a definition for pilgrimage that I myself find satisfying. I will perhaps post it. .
True, but it would seem relatively uncomplicated. A long walk might be a pilgrimage, while a pilgrimage doesn't have to be a long walk.A fair point. But it doesn't stop us discussing the distinction too
True, but it would seem relatively uncomplicated. A long walk might be a pilgrimage, while a pilgrimage doesn't have to be a long walk.
I know there are many on this forum who want to distinguish themselves from tourists, perhaps because the term tourist carries certain pejorative overtones. Unfortunately, there is little support for this position, starting at the very top with the UN's World Tourism Organisation. It has a wonderful set of definitions here that will probably dismay you if you think that as a pilgrim, you aren't a tourist. From its perspective, we are all tourists.'Pilgrims' also sometimes perform tourists behavior, as tourists sometimes perform pilgrimage behaviour.
OH Heck yeah dougfitz! I am a tourist too! I am in awe of all my different surroundings when I travel, I take lots of photos when I remember to stop gawking, and try all the food that I can. I even buy souvenirs! It's part of what I will do on my Camino too, along with everything spiritual and physical.I know there are many on this forum who want to distinguish themselves from tourists, perhaps because the term tourist carries certain pejorative overtones. Unfortunately, there is little support for this position, starting at the very top with the UN's World Tourism Organisation. It has a wonderful set of definitions here that will probably dismay you if you think that as a pilgrim, you aren't a tourist. From its perspective, we are all tourists.
I don't suppose there is a perfect definition.
My dissertation advisor had a made up word that was his highest compliment (and remains mine): when something was "provocating".
what was making me uncomfortable about this thread, and it is indeed the false dichotomy established at the outset
I think very very many set off on a long walk and find themselves on a pilgrimage. Intent has very little to do with it
I think it is true that one cant be mindless and be a pilgrim....but I think one can very much remain mindless about the fact one is on pilgrimage. Often, the people who spend the most time focusing on the fact they are being a "pilgrim" do the least seeking, the least questioning, because they are sure of their fixed status. that is the opposite of a pilgrim for me. The pilgrim is always changing, always evolving, always questioning. his pilgrimage has no end.To be sure that I understand - you mean that someone will start walking a Camino thinking it is a long walk and end up realizing along the way that there is an element of self discovery that wasn't anticipated and will therefore eventually conclude that it was, after all, a pilgrimage?
You mean that in such a case that person should be considered a pilgrim from the start?
---
I would say that without intent it is difficult to talk about a pilgrimage - - I would argue that in the situation that you describe, that person started as a walker and became a pilgrim. Accidental pilgrim is different from mindless pilgrim, the latter being unlikely to lead to anything of significance. No?
My introduction to the Camino de Santiago was a series of fantastic articles written in the early 1990s by Herb McGrew, a psychiatrist from California, for Gourmet Magazine. He and three others set out to hike from Le Puy. They were hikers who wanted beautiful scenery and to walk from good meal to good meal and to drink good wine. They did a lot of research, and while they understood it was a religious pilgrimage route, they were not so interested in the religious or spiritual aspect. They walked for three weeks. They liked it and returned the following year to continue where they left off. They did this for four years, ending in Santiago. By the time they reached Santiago they "got it" and realized it was a pilgrimage and they were, indeed, pilgrims.I think very very many set off on a long walk and find themselves on a pilgrimage. Intent has very little to do with it.
I'll respond to your question with a question: What's the difference between seeking, observing, and sightseeing?What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
I'll respond to your question with a question: What's the difference between seeking, observing, and sightseeing?
OK. As I mentioned I pondered this often whilst walking. And my views changed a bit.
And of course these are just my personal views. My Camino was no better, no more valid than any one else's! This was just how I saw mine being a Pilgrimage rather than a Walk.
But for me it 'felt' like a Pilgrimage from the start. I set out with the intention of walking a Pilgrimage, and I think that's just what I got. Sorry, I just realised this is going to go on a bit....
Sure I walked to 'take a break'. I have run a business for 20 years without ever really having a proper break. And the same with my 'job' for the 20 years before that.
It was 'time' to find myself, more meaning, greater purpose..... but also to seek a stronger spirituality or faith. It was lurking but not strong. Now it is very strong...... That's another very long story......
So I tried to think of what made this a Pilgrimage for me, rather than just a long walk. And I came up with these:
- There is a strong purpose or gaol, that is centred around religion or spirituality.
- There is probably a precise destination with a religious or spiritual significance. Having said that, Santiago the City was never really my goal. The journey was my goal. I called my Blog 'In Search of Santiago' for that very reason. I found 'him' long before I got to the actual place.
- It needs to take time. It's not about distance, but time. Time to be away from our normal World. At 3 weeks into my Camino, it was all 'happening' for me. Less time would not have worked.
- There needs to be a degree of suffering. I think this is important as it 'tests' our resolve and our commitment to the task, day by day. It might be physical, emotional or spiritual 'suffering'.
- I think we need to make sacrifices. Again to test our resolve and keep us focussed on the true purpose of our journey. OK, it could be the sacrifice of time or money. But to a degree that is easy for most people. You could walk for 2 weeks and only spend 25e a day. No, I think a deeper sacrifice. Like leaving loved ones behind. Leaving commitments and responsibilities behind. Then we don't 'waste' our journey because we have 'paid dearly' for it in some very personal way.
- I needed to travel slowly. To appreciate my surroundings and nature. To pause, to reflect, to listen. It was almost as if I needed to 'feel' and 'sense' my surroundings as I journeyed. I could not have done this any other way except walking slowly. Sorry Cyclists.
- I needed to be open in all aspects for whatever and whomever I met. In fact I visited a Church at least once a day, and if I couldn't find one open, I found a quiet place by the trail. I would not class myself as that 'religious' in the traditional sense. But each day I gave thanks for being able to spend another day on my journey (as I could barely walk the week before I started, due to training injuries) and I promised to walk with an open mind and an open heart so as to take on board any lessons I needed. And there were plenty! Every day......
- For me there also needed to be an element of history. I could have walked from Sydney to Melbourne. But the Camino was all about Pilgrimage. From the countless Churches and Crosses along the way, to the sense that we are walking the path trodden by millions for over a thousand years. Other Pilgrims, on a similar journey, seeking similar things.
Just my take on things.
I felt very fortunate to walk the Camino I did. And I learnt so many lessons along the way. One of those of course being "Everyone walks their own Camino".
I was just curious what others thought might make the journey more of a Pilgrimage'. Only because I spent so many hours thinking about it, and never really came up with the answer
If we discuss the topic under the premise that it is a pilgrimage if an individual person regards it is such then we don't have to discuss it all.
I'm very interested to hear the views of others on this question.
I first heard it posed by John Brierley in this talk Or at least a very similar questionI think he merely asks, what is a Pilgrimage. (No need to watch the video......It's quite long)
In fact he asks..."How does a long distance Trek, become a pilgrimage"? (at 19:45min)
It was a question I pondered a lot whilst walking. And I talk/write about it a lot on my blog. My views also changed the more I walked and changed again in the last 100 kms to Santiago.
I'll share my thoughts later in the thread, as I don't want to start off with my view.
So what do you think?
We all undertake our Camino for a vast array of reasons. We also all walk (or Cycle) our Camino in different ways.
Did you walk a Pilgrimage? Was it just a pleasant long walk? Or was it something else to you?
What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
Note: This is not intended to be a "My Camino was more valid than yours thread"
Never hide your faith, why hide it , why accommodate those who don't accept your faith but expect you to accommodate them in their non-beliefThe first time I mentioned the Camino to my husband, he was nonplussed. I love to meet people, and one of my favorite and life changing travels was walking in southern Africa. I looked at the Camino as a great affordable way to see spain, travel with my children, and meet lots of people.My husband, a non-catholic, non-believer-in-anything, asked "Is is at Catholic thing?" "No!" I told him, "It's just a great way to travel". He didn't think so, as he likes to play the aristocrat when he travels. ---But then, I started thinking. I did want to be able to go to mass if I wanted to to, without my fellow travelers thinking it odd, or me having to defend my decision. I put out a Facebook request "Who wants to walk the Camino with me?", and found I was relieved that my New Age/ Anthroposophical friends didn't want to join me. With time, and reflection I realized I wanted the Camino to become an exploration and extension of my faith. I wanted the freedom to stop at a wayside cross and pray quietly or appreciate art created by people who shared my faith without the condescension of enlightened rationalists. And so my Walk became a pilgrimage. I downloaded the Gospel of John in greek onto my kindle, and read a few verses per day (my Greek is very rusty). At some point on the way, I saw graffiti that scrawled "Yo soy el Camino." --- My walking companion was my 14 year old son, who was/is accepting of the faith part of me. -- I am wondering now back at home, how often do I hide that part of me..
I'm very interested to hear the views of others on this question.
I first heard it posed by John Brierley in this talk Or at least a very similar questionI think he merely asks, what is a Pilgrimage. (No need to watch the video......It's quite long)
In fact he asks..."How does a long distance Trek, become a pilgrimage"? (at 19:45min)
It was a question I pondered a lot whilst walking. And I talk/write about it a lot on my blog. My views also changed the more I walked and changed again in the last 100 kms to Santiago.
I'll share my thoughts later in the thread, as I don't want to start off with my view.
So what do you think?
We all undertake our Camino for a vast array of reasons. We also all walk (or Cycle) our Camino in different ways.
Did you walk a Pilgrimage? Was it just a pleasant long walk? Or was it something else to you?
What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
Note: This is not intended to be a "My Camino was more valid than yours thread"
I'm very interested to hear the views of others on this question.
I first heard it posed by John Brierley in this talk Or at least a very similar questionI think he merely asks, what is a Pilgrimage. (No need to watch the video......It's quite long)
In fact he asks..."How does a long distance Trek, become a pilgrimage"? (at 19:45min)
It was a question I pondered a lot whilst walking. And I talk/write about it a lot on my blog. My views also changed the more I walked and changed again in the last 100 kms to Santiago.
I'll share my thoughts later in the thread, as I don't want to start off with my view.
So what do you think?
We all undertake our Camino for a vast array of reasons. We also all walk (or Cycle) our Camino in different ways.
Did you walk a Pilgrimage? Was it just a pleasant long walk? Or was it something else to you?
What's the difference? What makes it a Pilgrimage?
Note: This is not intended to be a "My Camino was more valid than yours thread"
Hi allOK. As I mentioned I pondered this often whilst walking. And my views changed a bit.
And of course these are just my personal views. My Camino was no better, no more valid than any one else's! This was just how I saw mine being a Pilgrimage rather than a Walk.
But for me it 'felt' like a Pilgrimage from the start. I set out with the intention of walking a Pilgrimage, and I think that's just what I got. Sorry, I just realised this is going to go on a bit....
Sure I walked to 'take a break'. I have run a business for 20 years without ever really having a proper break. And the same with my 'job' for the 20 years before that.
It was 'time' to find myself, more meaning, greater purpose..... but also to seek a stronger spirituality or faith. It was lurking but not strong. Now it is very strong...... That's another very long story......
So I tried to think of what made this a Pilgrimage for me, rather than just a long walk. And I came up with these:
- There is a strong purpose or gaol, that is centred around religion or spirituality.
- There is probably a precise destination with a religious or spiritual significance. Having said that, Santiago the City was never really my goal. The journey was my goal. I called my Blog 'In Search of Santiago' for that very reason. I found 'him' long before I got to the actual place.
- It needs to take time. It's not about distance, but time. Time to be away from our normal World. At 3 weeks into my Camino, it was all 'happening' for me. Less time would not have worked.
- There needs to be a degree of suffering. I think this is important as it 'tests' our resolve and our commitment to the task, day by day. It might be physical, emotional or spiritual 'suffering'.
- I think we need to make sacrifices. Again to test our resolve and keep us focussed on the true purpose of our journey. OK, it could be the sacrifice of time or money. But to a degree that is easy for most people. You could walk for 2 weeks and only spend 25e a day. No, I think a deeper sacrifice. Like leaving loved ones behind. Leaving commitments and responsibilities behind. Then we don't 'waste' our journey because we have 'paid dearly' for it in some very personal way.
- I needed to travel slowly. To appreciate my surroundings and nature. To pause, to reflect, to listen. It was almost as if I needed to 'feel' and 'sense' my surroundings as I journeyed. I could not have done this any other way except walking slowly. Sorry Cyclists.
- I needed to be open in all aspects for whatever and whomever I met. In fact I visited a Church at least once a day, and if I couldn't find one open, I found a quiet place by the trail. I would not class myself as that 'religious' in the traditional sense. But each day I gave thanks for being able to spend another day on my journey (as I could barely walk the week before I started, due to training injuries) and I promised to walk with an open mind and an open heart so as to take on board any lessons I needed. And there were plenty! Every day......
- For me there also needed to be an element of history. I could have walked from Sydney to Melbourne. But the Camino was all about Pilgrimage. From the countless Churches and Crosses along the way, to the sense that we are walking the path trodden by millions for over a thousand years. Other Pilgrims, on a similar journey, seeking similar things.
Just my take on things.
I felt very fortunate to walk the Camino I did. And I learnt so many lessons along the way. One of those of course being "Everyone walks their own Camino".
I was just curious what others thought might make the journey more of a Pilgrimage'. Only because I spent so many hours thinking about it, and never really came up with the answer
A related question:
Is the Peace Walk a Pilgrimage? Or a Long Walk?
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