caminowilts
DG
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Frances, August 2016
Camino Portuguese, April 2017
Camino Ingles, May 2018
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We ARE special, aren't we?why pilgrims are not given priority seating
Well, I am not sure that it is only the parador crowd. Quite a lot of peregrinos, Spanish, Americans, Germans, Norwegians, +++++ do not respect announcements about photos, videos etc, I have seen it during all ceremonies I have taken part in. Most pilgrimsforums often have members loading up their pictures and videos from the Botafumeiro!The Parador crowd also is there and acting that way. The Cathedral security people do what they can, and make a lot of announcements about photos, flash, recording, and quiet. They don't work. It is just another annoyance to get over. The botafumeiro is worth it.
It's pretty clear who are the pilgrims in the crowd.
The people I expect to show more respect are the ones dressed like they’ve walked a fair distance.
Sorry I was not clear - look dressed as pilgrims as opposed to tourists visiting Santiago.Don't assume.
Not everybody attends immediately after arriving in Santiago.
Many (including me) shower and clean up first.
St Mike, who are you to decide who is a genuine Pilgrim? No matter how or why they are there they may be a Pilgrim. Each does it their Way and I think this whoke thread is making me sick.Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!
I think saying the thread is a making you sick is perhaps OTT. I merely started the threa saying why can’t people show the same respect in the cathedral that they show on the Camino.Who are you to dec
St Mike, who are you to decide who is a genuine Pilgrim? No matter how or why they are there they may be a Pilgrim. Each does it their Way and I think this whoke thread is making me sick.
I am a Christian, but not a Catholic and have been to the cathedral 3 times, hoping to see the beautiful swinging incense. Only my last time did I have the joy of seeing it at the end of a very long and somewhat tortuous experience, for me anyway, as I never understand a word and although I arrived fairly early, there were no seats left so I stood the whole time and it was pretty miserable. I never thought to judge those who were seated to wonder if they were or were not a pilgrim, but I did look at them with "envy"...a big no no in the Bible!
'Genuine Pilgrims' - I don't understand this - who is a 'genuine' pilgrim or otherwise. I walked 110 km Inglés last year, and had the most special experience I could have wished for any of my Caminos. And I, like others, see every Camino I undertake as simply a continuation, one thread woven into our life's experiences. I've also met people along the ways who are simply sport-walking, but end up touched by the Camino and experiences. 100 km or less or more, why judge who is 'genuine'? Yes, the Cathedral is more often than not over flowing with, whether for mass or the spectacle or the experience or whatever. Its a joy and blessing to be there, regardless, and as the great man says, do not judge others, show kindness to widows and orphans - show loving kindness to all, and accept that no one is perfect and we suffer hardships as lessons.Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!
Ok , every person who have walked what ever distance is a Pilgrim in my opinion .genuine ones - not the 100km ones)
Have an other one , a friend of me walked the Ingliss a few weeks ago and in your words she is not a true Pilgrim. Wrong again .genuine ones - not the 100km ones)
Tom, I appreciate that offer. I especially want you to know, once again, how I think of you as a walking encyclopedia, with knowledge on so many Camino related subjects...and the above post you wrote is a prime example. I learned much more about this special city from the details you shared today. Thanks, and yes, it does help!If you are ever there when I am in town, find me. I will make certain you are there when the Botafumeiro flies... One has some connections...
This is true, Tom. I have friends that have gone on the standard cruises and tourist tours in which the tour description included phrases like "See the real pilgrims in Santiago" or "Walk along the Camino de Santiago" (for a couple of blocks). However, I can't say I felt like a zoo animal because no one ever tossed me a handful of peanuts...
But, for others, including firms and cruise lines seeking to make profit from providing tourists an additional 'experience," Santiago de Compostela is sort of like a 'middle ages theme park.' Untouched by war damage and a center of pilgrimage for more than 1,200 years, it has everything that would attract tourists.
Unlike most of the rest of Europe, the primary "old town" is undisturbed by urban renewal. It's 800-year old (+) buildings and streets appear more or less as they always have. The old, arcaded streets maintain their charm with none of the overt commercialism that the rest of Europe is replete with. The 'new town" is conveniently organized to be distance and separate. There are few very old cities or large towns in the rest of Europe that can claim this status...and many of them are in Spain or Portugal.
And, in this context, the pilgrims, in their rucksacks and sometimes strange apparel are one of the prime attractions. We do not have to like this. But, we DO have to suck it up and just find a way to cope. We are, as pilgrims, exhibits in this zoo.
...
So for those of you who doubt - please tell me, are these genuine pilgrims?
I've always been informed that it costs 700€ for the botafumeiro, and that private patrons pay for each one to order. There was a group of local hoteliers who payed regularly, but I read somewhere last year that they have stopped doing this. Santiago is a tourist location beloved of the nation. Where I live is also a major tourist city, and the tourists are pampoured to with displays of local and traditional dress and music, etc. The city relies on the tourists - we even pay a 'tourist tax' here - to cover the city's cost of keeping the tourists happy. The city is on the St. Jacob's Weg, and there is an association that supports this, but tourism is the major focus of the politicians. A bit of pomp and ceremony is to be expected and helps to impress the identity of a city and culture - something residents and non-tourists have to put up with, or enjoy.Do away with the tiraboleiros - men in fancy ancient looking costumes that are in fact a 20th century innovation. Install a mechanism as it is used for ringing church bells all over Europe. Let the botafumeiro swing every day for a few hours outside mass times.
I understand this point. One aspect that strikes me is that contemporary pilgrims think that the mass labelled as pilgrims mass is a thousand year old tradition exclusively for foot pilgrims who have a record of more than 100 walked kilometers. And, truth be told, that the Botafumeiro ought to swing for them on the day when they are in Santiago ... I empathise with this but it's a misconception.A bit of pomp and ceremony is to be expected and helps to impress the identity of a city and culture - something residents and non-tourists have to put up with, or enjoy.
I've always been informed that it costs 700€ for the botafumeiro, and that private patrons pay for each one to order. There was a group of local hoteliers who payed regularly, but I read somewhere last year that they have stopped doing this. Santiago is a tourist location beloved of the nation. Where I live is also a major tourist city, and the tourists are pampoured to with displays of local and traditional dress and music, etc. The city relies on the tourists - we even pay a 'tourist tax' here - to cover the city's cost of keeping the tourists happy. The city is on the St. Jacob's Weg, and there is an association that supports this, but tourism is the major focus of the politicians. A bit of pomp and ceremony is to be expected and helps to impress the identity of a city and culture - something residents and non-tourists have to put up with, or enjoy.
THANK you. KeithYou are correct as regards the Botafumeiro, EXCEPT for the cost. As of last year (2017), I was reliably informed at the office that handled the scheduling for the ceremony, that the cost is more like €400.
Until 2016, the local hotel association DID fund the weekly Botafumeiro use at the 19:30 Friday evening Pilgrim Mass. The purpose was to draw crowds who would then go dine in the local restaurants and sleep in the local hotels. However, by 2016 - 2017, the volume of tourists was so great that the association decided they did not have to spend money for the promotion to attract tourists. This was even reported in the local newspaper at the time. On many summer weekends, all hotel rooms are booked and restaurants have more reservations and folks waiting than they can accommodate.
As we draw closer to the next Holy Year in 2021, the impact of tourists on Santiago de Compostela will become more profound. Pilgrims will need to find coping mechanisms, including booking early.
Hope this helps.
The clue is in the name Pilgrims Mass not tourist mass or cruise ship etc. The time has come to issue tickets in the office to be given with the Compostela. Only when the actual pilgrims have entered should the rest of the public be admitted. Surely not to hard to arrange.I have been in Santiago many times post walk but have never attended the cathedral circus that was once a mass,I feel sorry for those who are believers and see the mass as something very important,but the whole thing has become commercial and undignified.I do not have a solution to this problem other than perhaps chose another church to give thanks for yer walk,besides I don't actually believe St Jimmy's bones are even there,just my opinion
The clue is in the name Pilgrims Mass not tourist mass or cruise ship etc. The time has come to issue tickets in the office to be given with the Compostela. Only when the actual pilgrims have entered should the rest of the public be admitted. Surely not to hard to arrange.
All pilgrims who receive a Compostela. Attending the mass was very important for my daughter and I but it was very difficult to actually get in let alone find a seat. I may be wrong but I think for many who attend the mass is not a spiritual experience but just another tourist attraction.i wonder if there was no Botafumerio how many tourists would attend rather than just wander around the cathedral at another time of the day.Would that include package tour 'pilgrims' ?
All pilgrims who receive a Compostela. Attending the mass was very important for my daughter and I but it was very difficult to actually get in let alone find a seat. I may be wrong but I think for many who attend the mass is not a spiritual experience but just another tourist attraction.i wonder if there was no Botafumerio how many tourists would attend rather than just wander around the cathedral at another time of the day.
I think the name refers to recognizing pilgrims, not who can attend.The clue is in the name Pilgrims Mass not tourist mass or cruise ship etc. The time has come to issue tickets in the office to be given with the Compostela. Only when the actual pilgrims have entered should the rest of the public be admitted. Surely not to hard to arrange.
After about 3500 Camino kilometres over 15 years I stayed in the Parador in 2016 as a self-indulgent treat - sorry if that causes you umbrage.The Parador crowd also is there and acting that way. The Cathedral security people do what they can, and make a lot of announcements about photos, flash, recording, and quiet. They don't work. It is just another annoyance to get over. The botafumeiro is worth it.
WeOn the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?
On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?
I totally agree that is what is in your heart and not the distance. I have met a handful of pilgrims on the Le Puy, Frances, and Portugues who walked long distances that I would wonder for a moment why they are here? I know we have all encountered a few people like that. I have walked the CF twice and will never walk it again. I personally like solitude when I walk and i know that is getting tougher to find. Which is sad as I met some amazing people from around the world. Some i stay in touch with. But the biggest turn off is Sarria on. I have encountered countless load, rude, drunk and selfish people on the way and especially in Albergues that are there for a cheap vacation. Or to get their Compostela because it looks good on their CV or university application. I am not judging them I am just saying that is why some of those people are on the Camino. They are Pilgrims in name only. It is wonderful to be inclusive and understanding and boy do we need a lot more of that love and generosity of Camino Spirit today. But it becomes dangerous to me to make blanket statements about this (as anything). When you do, I believe you weaken the spirit and love that binds Pilgrims.All pilgrims, whether they have walked 1000km or 100km are genuine pilgrims IMO, its what is in your heart is what makes you a genuine pilgrim.
Not sure my stance on this but as I’ve just hobbled into Arzúa - began in Irun- ( road nearly all the way ) I can appreciate your view. I’l see what happens on Monday as I hobble into Santiago.On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?
On my first time in the cathedral, it was definitely tourists taking the seats and reserving seats for others and the behaviour of one man was, without going into details here, absolutely disgusting and filled me with horrorHola @Saint Mike II
My suspicion, perhaps built on prejudice rather than any certainty, was that a large proportion of the congregation hadn't walked. This was largely based on all the stuff they had and the clothes they wore but I suppose it's possible a number of them had had things sent ahead.
Truly spokenAll pilgrims, whether they have walked 1000km or 100km are genuine pilgrims IMO, its what is in your heart is what makes you a genuine pilgrim.
I couldn't care less about seeing the Botafumeiro. I will not attend the tourist Mass knowing that I may very well become frustrated and irritated at all the touristy, rhubarby detritus that has been described. I do not want to affect others around me at the Mass with my unspoken attitude giving off negative vibes.
Instead, I will find a small chapel, somewhere, to pray and to give God thanks and to attend a Mass. I am not Catholic, but Mass in Santiago would provide a sense of spiritual and religious completion.
Then, I can visit the Cathedral and see the Relics and the Altar, and hug St James.
Yeah, I'm jealous, I never have.... Next timeAfter about 3500 Camino kilometres over 15 years I stayed in the Parador in 2016 as a self-indulgent treat - sorry if that causes you umbrage.
But.... It really isn't that bad! Same as you hear walking from StJean without stopping in Orisson is a no no, same with the Pilgrim's Mass! Yes, it's crowded. Yes, the people filming the botufumeiro are really, really annoying.... But it's part of life! You've arrived, you're part of a Mass.... To me it's all good.I couldn't care less about seeing the Botafumeiro. I will not attend the tourist Mass knowing that I may very well become frustrated and irritated at all the touristy, rhubarby detritus that has been described. I do not want to affect others around me at the Mass with my unspoken attitude giving off negative vibes.
Catholic Mass in English is celebrated at 10:00 Monday - Friday in the Chapel of our Lady of Corticela. As you proceed to exit the Cathedral via the North Portico, it is the last chapel on the right, on the main floor, BEFORE you go up the stairs towards the exit. On Saturday's this Mass is at 09:00. On Sunday, there is no English Mass...that I am aware of.
You enter the Catherdral (WITHOUT your Rucksack) via the South Portico and Transept just off Plaza das Praterias, the one with the water fountain at the base of the stairs...adjacent to the Museo de Peregrinacion. Once inside, make your way around the main altar and head toward s the exit on the North side, keeping to your right.
The Chapel of our Lady of Corticela is on your right behind bars that resemble an old prison cell. There is a statue of the Blessed Mother holding a silver heart pierced by sen daggers representing the seven sorrows of Mary.
Hope this helps.
But.... It really isn't that bad! Same as you hear walking from StJean without stopping in Orisson is a no no, same with the Pilgrim's Mass! Yes, it's crowded. Yes, the people filming the botufumeiro are really, really annoying.... But it's part of life! You've arrived, you're part of a Mass.... To me it's all good.
And as a by the by, I regularly go to Mass in Spain in a non touristy place.... People arrive late, people talk, have pushchairs cluttering up the aisle and uncontrolable babies.... Phones that go off.... You name it... (Quite different to what I have experienced in Paris or now the UK.) They don't even all kneel at the right times lol
But they are there
Something like thatYou're right, it is part of life and it isn't exactly a surprise to know how things can be during the service.
What is a bit ironic is that St James is the author of the Book of James in the Bible -- which has been called the practical handbook for Christians -- and he addressed this very thing in Chapter 1 versus 3 - 4:
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
So for Christ followers, dealing with improprieties and rudeness and other stuff during a time of worship and reflection would be a bit of the trying of faith in that sucking it up and not taking it out on others builds our patience towards others. Sort of like walking the Camino toughens up one's feet.
It is a perfect 'handbook', one to be consulted regularly as a reminder to us all. Its practicle common sense, with a 'backbone' of christian, spiritual or non-faith/humanist , down-to-earth lets-make-life-and-this-world a better place for everyone doctrine. I read the Methodist 'Good News' version, written in plain english. Love it.You're right, it is part of life and it isn't exactly a surprise to know how things can be during the service.
What is a bit ironic is that St James is the author of the Book of James in the Bible -- which has been called the practical handbook for Christians -- and he addressed this very thing in Chapter 1 versus 3 - 4:
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
So for Christ followers, dealing with improprieties and rudeness and other stuff during a time of worship and reflection would be a bit of the trying of faith in that sucking it up and not taking it out on others builds our patience towards others. Sort of like walking the Camino toughens up one's feet.
On the Camino everyone takes care of everyone. Yet every time I have been to the cathedral (3 Caminos), people are so rude. The savings of seats by pilgrims for others is one very clear example. I see pilgrims hobbling into the catherdral and yet for some pilgrims all acts of generosity disappear - instead personal entitlement seems to kick in. Am I being harsh?
The "genuine ones"? Seriously?Hola @caminowilts & @Dorpie were you able to determine if the "culprits" were your (once) fellow pilgrims or bus tourists or locals?
Unfortunately there is a perception (imho) that the pilgrims & their mass are a necessary evil that has to be suffered by the Cathedral administration (and the bus tourists) even though it has a history of, perhaps, a thousand years (again my opinion). So its unlikely that pilgrims (genuine ones - not the 100km ones) will be afforded such a priority.
As I see it and I have been to Santiago 3 times the reason for the "crush" in the wings (the South & North sides of the Cathedral) is that if the butofomero is going to swing then this is the best view point.
Except on feast days I get the impression that you rarely see a local at the pilgrims mass. Without being able to speak either reasonable Spanish nor Galacian I cannot get this confirm or explained!
Feel I have to weigh in here. Perhaps these people were of a different religion. I believe there are some religions where it is acceptable to come and go at whatever time during a service. [I could be wrong; it's been known to happen.] Perhaps these people had no idea what 'communion' is, and genuinely thought your seats had been vacated. The cathedral is open to all, no matter one's religion. Just a thought.My mother and I left our seats for communion and wen we returned to our seats, new people were sitting in them. They eventually moved after I explained these were our seats and we’d Just had communion. They were not happy. Astonishing!
Feel I have to weigh in here. Perhaps these people were of a different religion. I believe there are some religions where it is acceptable to come and go at whatever time during a service. [I could be wrong; it's been known to happen.] Perhaps these people had no idea what 'communion' is, and genuinely thought your seats had been vacated. The cathedral is open to all, no matter one's religion. Just a thought.
Hi Tom , we think it is De nada instead off Di nada .Di nada. Happy to help.
You mean you had to stop these people from rushing to the seats of those who went to the altar for communion? I dunno ... is it really too much to expect some rudimentary knowledge and to keep in the background when people choose to attend a Christian church service who had never done so once before in their lives?Indeed just what I observed a month ago in the same cathedral. A couple standing next to me were happy when I explained them this and also when I told them the significance of the" Peace be with you" and the handshake. So not everything is done out of rudeness.
You mean you had to stop these people from rushing to the seats of those who went to the altar for communion? I dunno ... is it really too much to expect some rudimentary knowledge and to keep in the background when people choose to attend a Christian church service who had never done so once before in their lives?
Yes, that's what I meant: observing basic rules of behaviour and respect is different from not knowing what the various acts of the faithful and of the priest mean and wanting to learn about it.Well in their defense they were not rushing to the seats. And with their further informative questions I found them genuinely interested.
Yes, that's what I meant: observing basic rules of behaviour and respect is different from not knowing what the various acts of the faithful and of the priest mean and wanting to learn about it.
Yeah, I don't know why I feel so unforgiving about these seat grabbers during Communion ... I mean how long does it take to figure out that people get up, move forward, do something I can't see and don't know about, come back and sit down again ... and to feel mortified about your innocent mistake, apologize and retreat.My point is, that this 'problem' in the Cathedral is not just limited to there - its all around us, inherent and inciped.
Yeah, I don't know why I feel so unforgiving about these seat grabbers during Communion ... I mean how long does it take to figure out that people get up, move forward, do something I can't see and don't know about, come back and sit down again ...
YESThe "genuine ones"? Seriously?
I'm gonna throw this spanner into the works: Is booking a bed ahead of everyone else 'pushing-in'? Does anyone have the right to do that, really, to pressume to take the bed of pilgrims ahead of them - who may even have injuries or afflictions, be elderly or very young. and are in need of a bed? Is it not the same as pouncing on an available space to sit at the cathedral? Think about it, I'm curious and welcome your thoughts.
I see what you mean - but are there established protocols also about giving up a seat or your place in a que for someone who needs it more than yourself? Would someone who's booked a bed on their Camino arrive to find someone who needs it more than themselves give it up for them? I'm getting at human nature here, not just written protocols, and how selfish we all are. Established protocols have their place. and purpose. No one's perfect, but we have a conscience and moral/spiritual/social obligations toward one another. If people could book their place on-line for the Mass and Botafumeiro, I have no doubt they would, and it would become more of a 'performance' than it is on the verge of becoming. With such 'bookings', people would be left outside and not allowed entry, like any theatre or show. Its hyperthetical, I know, but worth consideration. I believe the Caminos have become much more popular because people can sit at home, often on the other side of the world, and book way ahead, then fly/travel in and be assured of their comfort. How many would not take the adventure if these 'comfort' aspects were not assured, I wonder? I'm not criticising, the caminos have been opened-up to many thousands more people for all sorts of reasons.I know what you are trying to get at, Keith, but I don't see the analogy.Booking a bed via a reservation is an established, formal, and orderly protocol allowed by an individual lodging establishment or alburgue. There is no such established protocol at the Cathedral.
I see what you mean - but are there established protocols also about giving up a seat or your place in a que for someone who needs it more than yourself? Would someone who's booked a bed on their Camino arrive to find someone who needs it more than themselves give it up for them? I'm getting at human nature here, not just written protocols, and how selfish we all are. Established protocols have their place. and purpose. No one's perfect, but we have a conscience and moral/spiritual/social obligations toward one another. If people could book their place on-line for the Mass and Botafumeiro, I have no doubt they would, and it would become more of a 'performance' than it is on the verge of becoming. With such 'bookings', people would be left outside and not allowed entry, like any theatre or show. Its hyperthetical, I know, but worth consideration. I believe the Caminos have become much more popular because people can sit at home, often on the other side of the world, and book way ahead, then fly/travel in and be assured of their comfort. How many would not take the adventure if these 'comfort' aspects were not assured, I wonder? I'm not criticising, the caminos have been opened-up to many thousands more people for all sorts of reasons.
We are talking 'unwritten' protocol regarding the Mass and the Cathedral - morals and conscience which rely upon human nature. We're all the same, the whole planet, although some cultures and societies are commited to these unwritten yet established protocols far more than our increasingly selfish behaviours. I still stand by my first 'spanner', and want to search deeper about this. Look forward to any replies. LLN Keith
Between you and me the one in Leon was, I thought, much nicer. OK, TWO Paradors on one Camino - don't judge me, it was the last, ever time on the Camino.Yeah, I'm jealous, I never have.... Next time
Between you and me the one in Leon was, I thought, much nicer. OK, TWO Paradors on one Camino - don't judge me, it was the last, ever time on the Camino.
Er, until next Monday
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