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3 million (NOT 15 million) euros to put signs on the Invierno

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Thanks to @Pelerin for a careful reading. I totally messed up here and have edited to correct.

The article details the following facts:

-- Signage on all caminos in Galicia cost 12 million euros to date.

-- 3 million more will go to signage on the Invierno. Since the Invierno now has more mojones than any other camino I can think of in terms of mojon per km, I cannot imagine where the additional money will go.

-- 1.5 million will be held in reserve for maintenance

-- 5 million euros are being put aside for albergues, with two mentioned as -- one in the bishop's palace at the church in Diomondi (I know some people think that's a great, evocative place to put an albergue but it has absolutely no services anywhere near it. More than that, though, I would think that putting an albergue in a 15th century building would be extremely expensive to meet requirements for historical buildings.) The other place mentioned for an albergue is Rodeiro, which since last year has had a marvelous private albergue in the Hostal Carpinteiras.

I know it is easy to criticize, but I really don't think these bureaucrats have any real connection to the pilgrim community or any real understanding of what the people who walk would actually like to see. Also, this seems to be one of the inevitable consequences of transferring the government's work with the Camino from the departments of culture and history to where it currently is, the Department of Tourism.

If anyone knows of an outlet for this handwringing, it'd be great to know. Is there some vehicle for public input?

 
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dougfitz

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
5 million euros are being put aside for albergues, with two mentioned as -- one in the bishop's palace at the church in Diomondi
I read this as assisting the 'bishop's palace' ie the diocese, to open an albergue at Saviñao, not converting the bishop's home into an albergue. Have I got this wrong?
 

Bradypus

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Too many and too often!

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
Doug, your question reminds me that the unused school building in Savinao, very close to Torre Vilariño, had been designated as an albergue (funded, I believe by the municipality and not the church or the Xunta). But I learned from the owners of Torre Vilariño last summer that some neighbors had filed suit to block the project, so it will be years before the question is decided.
 
Camino(s) past & future
Camino Frances 2005,2008,2010,2015.camino Portuguese 2007 .primativo2012.camino Norte 2009.sjpdp to finisterre and muxia 2007. Le Puy to jpdp 2006. Via francigena vercelli to Lucca 2014. Lucca to Rome 2016.
I know we have seen something about this before, but I found this article so astonishing that I thought I would post it.

The article details the following facts:
-- Signage on the Invierno has cost 12 million euros to date.
-- 3 million more will go to signage. Since the Invierno now has more mojones than any other camino I can think of in terms of mojon per km, I cannot imagine where the additional money will go.
-- 1.5 million will be held in reserve for maintenance
-- 5 million euros are being put aside for albergues, with two mentioned as -- one in the bishop's palace at the church in Diomondi (I know some people think that's a great, evocative place to put an albergue but it has absolutely no services anywhere near it. More than that, though, I would think that putting an albergue in a 15th century building would be extremely expensive to meet requirements for historical buildings.) The other place mentioned for an albergue is Rodeiro, which since last year has had a marvelous private albergue in the Hostal Carpinteiras.

I know it is easy to criticize, but I really don't think these bureaucrats have any real connection to the pilgrim community or any real understanding of what the people who walk would actually like to see. Also, this seems to be one of the inevitable consequences of transferring the government's work with the Camino from the departments of culture and history to where it currently is, the Department of Tourism.

If anyone knows of an outlet for this handwringing, it'd be great to know. Is there some vehicle for public input?

12 million for signage?
No way!
Yes there are a lot of mojons on the Invierno but 12 million!!?
Methinks that money has gone somewhere else ....even 3 million for sinkage seems a bit excessive
 
Camino(s) past & future
cycled from Pamplona Sep 2015;Frances, walked from St Jean May/June 2017. Plans to walk Porto 2020
I have not walked the Invierno (yet), but why mojones? What is wrong with yellow arrows?
Hola according to Dr Google a mojone is a cairn or a mile post/land mark. I think our Dear Laurie had her tongue in her cheek a little. Cheers
 

pelerine

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Norte 10, Primitivo 13, Plata 14+15, Salvador 16, Torres 17, Portugues 18, Mozarabe 19
As far as I know a mojon is a concrete thing with a shell pointing you the way you should go towards Santiago. And in Galicia it gives you the remaining distance to Santiago.
No need to have them if you want to make sure pilgrims find their way to Santiago! In fact a waste of money....
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
The mojón is one of those granite waymarkers with the shell symbol on it. I think they are called bollards in English, but I am not sure, having never had occasion to use the word in English. I found a picture in our media section. https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/camino-photos/mojon-at-ferreiros.6709/

But Annette, your comment made me think. 3 million euros spread over 260 kms comes out to about 57,000 euros per km to put these things in. That doesn’t pass the straight face test. Reminds me of a joke that will be hard to tell without gestures. But I will try. Several corrupt politicians are flying in a plane looking down at the ground below. One says — see that dam? The others nod. Then the first one pats his pocket and says “10%.” The flight continues. The second one says — See that terminal? The others nod. Second one pats his pocket and says “20%.” The flight continues. And the third one says — see that bridge? No one sees a bridge. He pats his pocket and says “100%.” Something like that may be going on here!
 
Last edited:

pelerine

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
Norte 10, Primitivo 13, Plata 14+15, Salvador 16, Torres 17, Portugues 18, Mozarabe 19
PS Now I come to think of it - isn’t Galicia a particularly poor part of Spain? Do the mojones improve tourism? How much money do pilgrims bring in for the local population? Sorry! Breaking the forum rules....

PS I found them useful to have a short sit-down whithout having to take my pack off my back!
 
Last edited:

Kanga

Moderator
Staff member
Camino(s) past & future
Francés x 5, Le Puy x 2, Arles, Tours, Norte, Madrid, Via de la Plata, Portuguese, Primitivo
The local politicians, would be the ones I would pressure, Laurie. I don't know if you can find your way to the area representatives, but here's a list of current Members of the Galician Parliament.
 

henrythedog

Loved and fed by David
Camino(s) past & future
Frances 2017, 2018, 2019, Ingles 2018, (Madrid 2019 partial - retired hurt!) (more planned)
I know we have seen something about this before, but I found this article so astonishing that I thought I would post it.

The article details the following facts:
-- Signage on the Invierno has cost 12 million euros to date.
-- 3 million more will go to signage. Since the Invierno now has more mojones than any other camino I can think of in terms of mojon per km, I cannot imagine where the additional money will go.
-- 1.5 million will be held in reserve for maintenance
-- 5 million euros are being put aside for albergues, with two mentioned as -- one in the bishop's palace at the church in Diomondi (I know some people think that's a great, evocative place to put an albergue but it has absolutely no services anywhere near it. More than that, though, I would think that putting an albergue in a 15th century building would be extremely expensive to meet requirements for historical buildings.) The other place mentioned for an albergue is Rodeiro, which since last year has had a marvelous private albergue in the Hostal Carpinteiras.

I know it is easy to criticize, but I really don't think these bureaucrats have any real connection to the pilgrim community or any real understanding of what the people who walk would actually like to see. Also, this seems to be one of the inevitable consequences of transferring the government's work with the Camino from the departments of culture and history to where it currently is, the Department of Tourism.

If anyone knows of an outlet for this handwringing, it'd be great to know. Is there some vehicle for public input?


Dear God. That’s extraordinary. I’d have happily come out of retirement and done the whole thing for no more that €14m.

In my village a small pedestrian bridge is to be built by the local authority spanning a 4M wide stream. It will cost £80k and take two months apparently. Similar bridges on private land within 500m either way have cost less than £1k and been constructed in a long day by two enthusiastic people.
 

dougfitz

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
Reminds me of a joke that will be hard to tell without gestures. But I will try. Several corrupt politicians are flying in a plane looking down at the ground below. One says — see that dam? The others nod. Then the first one pats his pocket and says “10%.” The flight continues. The second one says — See that terminal? The others nod. Second one pats his pocket and says “20%.” The flight continues. And the third one says — see that bridge? No one sees a bridge. He pats his pocket and says “100%.” Something like that may be going on here!
The 2019 Corruption Perception Index places Spain 30th on a list going from least to most corrupt and improving. In contrast, the US is only seven places ahead at 23rd, but it is going backwards down the list. New Zealand tops the list with Denmark as having the lowest perceived levels of public corruption. The top 20 includes Germany, Canada, the UK, Australia, Ireland and Japan.

While I would not suggest corruption never occurs in the countries at the top of the list, I would be perhaps more generous than you appear to have been that the funds allocated might be misused. Without some more information about the scope of the whole program and it's constituent projects, I don't think any of us are in a position to suggest that.

It doesn't mean I think your concern is misplaced, and as a community we might want to better understand what these funds will achieve and how that will be governed. This should certainly be of interest to forum members who expect to be on pilgrimage next year.
 

Peligro

I walk between cafe breaks
Camino(s) past & future
St. Jean to SdC the slow way (Aug'15, Aug'17, Jan'18, Aug'18, Jan'19, Jul'19) Primitivo (May'20)
As far as I know a mojon is a concrete thing with a shell pointing you the way you should go towards Santiago. And in Galicia it gives you the remaining distance to Santiago.
No need to have them if you want to make sure pilgrims find their way to Santiago! In fact a waste of money....
At least in Valencia, mojon in most often used to mean "turd". All this talk of mojones is giving me juvenile chuckles. As in "the Invierno has lots of mojones". 😂
 

amancio

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances, Norte, Primit, Salvador, Portug, Arag, Ingles, VdlP, Leban-Vadin, Fisterra, Invierno, LePuy
The mojón is one of those granite waymarkers with the shell symbol on it. I think they are called bollards in English, but I am not sure, having never had occasion to use the word in English. I found a picture in our media section. https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/camino-photos/mojon-at-ferreiros.6709/

But Annette, your comment made me think. 15 million euros spread over 260 kms comes out to about 57,000 euros per km to put these things in. That doesn’t pass the straight face test. Reminds me of a joke that will be hard to tell without gestures. But I will try. Several corrupt politicians are flying in a plane looking down at the ground below. One says — see that dam? The others nod. Then the first one pats his pocket and says “10%.” The flight continues. The second one says — See that terminal? The others nod. Second one pats his pocket and says “20%.” The flight continues. And the third one says — see that bridge? No one sees a bridge. He pats his pocket and says “100%.” Something like that may be going on here!
Laurie, as usual, you hit the spot there: 57 euro per fecking meter of the camino, you can make a chain of 5 euro notes to cover the whole camino with that much money!!! The Camino de Invierno, as a Camino, is a joke, and it is a pity because to me it is the wildest of caminos in Galicia, more dramatic than Primitivo. There are lots of meetings, things going on with associations, and where are the results? That Camino will never be popular because it is long, physically demanding, and does not have 100 km rush options.
And, I insist, it is a pity, because it is just stunning in every sense, but it is not a viable alternative to Francés from Ponferrada, first of all because the first stage has no albergues to make for an attractive lenght first stage, the place for an albergue would be Borrenes.
And to that, you just add the fact that there are no albergues. A tiny fraction of that money would suffice to drain the camino in the last km before Monforte, for example.
Waste of money, irritating.
I am editing to say that the Camino de Invierno itself, before it meets the Sanabrés, is probably around 210 km,so that would be 71.42 euro per meter.
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
12 million for signage?
No way!
Yes there are a lot of mojons on the Invierno but 12 million!!?
Methinks that money has gone somewhere else ....even 3 million for sinkage seems a bit excessive
The article says that 12 million has been the investment for all the Caminos in Galicia since 2015. For the Invierno go 3 million.
Most mojones are in private properties and the owners must be paid.
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
There is elections for the Xunta this year
If this is a corruption case will know. No doubt.
 

VNwalking

Wandering in big circles
Camino(s) past & future
Francés ('14/'15)
San Olav/CF ('16)
Baztanés/CF ('17)
Ingles ('18)
Vasco/CF/Invierno ('19)
I really don't think these bureaucrats have any real connection to the pilgrim community or any real understanding of what the people who walk would actually like to see.
No kidding.
The associations have likely been gnashing their teeth in frustration.
That amount of money, wherever it went, hasn't been used to much effect...
 

Dromengro

Active Member
Camino(s) past & future
SJPdP - Leon 1984
Frances (2021)
I really don't think these bureaucrats have any real connection to the pilgrim community or any real understanding of what the people who walk would actually like to see.
Do bureaucrats ever have a connection to anyone (other than themselves) or have any understanding of what people really want?
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
The article says that 12 million has been the investment for all the Caminos in Galicia since 2015. For the Invierno go 3 million.
Most mojones are in private properties and the owners must be paid.
Oh thank you thank you, @Pelegrin for correcting my mistake. That is a big difference. And for letting us know that it is not so simple as just plunking down a big hunk of granite wherever you feel like. That does make it more understandable. I think the news does a big disservice by throwing these numbers around without context, because to those of us who walk, it is hard to imagine how they can find 3 million more ways to spend a euro to improve signage on the best signed camino in Spain!
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
Oh thank you thank you, @Pelegrin for correcting my mistake. That is a big difference. And for letting us know that it is not so simple as just plunking down a big hunk of granite wherever you feel like. That does make it more understandable. I think the news does a big disservice by throwing these numbers around without context, because to those of us who walk, it is hard to imagine how they can find 3 million more ways to spend a euro to improve signage on the best signed camino in Spain!
I have a rustic estate in Galicia 1/2 Ha. There is an asphalted track that divides my property in two to serve a neighbour. The land on both sides is mine and therefore I could claim for money to the Xunta in case a mojon is put on there. I think is clear.
 

peregrina2000

Moderator
Staff member
I have just seen yet another article about more money for signage on the Invierno. This one says 1.7 million euros will be split among 14 municipalities. I wonder if this is in addition to the article I (mis)reported a few months ago, or just a follow-up.



I continue to be amazed by the amount of money being spent on signage. Last summer when I walked the signage was already way above and beyond what any non-GPS-carrying pilgrim would need to feel totally confident. New mojones were everywhere.
 

dougfitz

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Spain: Mar 2010, Apr 2014, May/Jun 2016. Norway/Sweden: 2012, 2018. Other: 2011, 2019. CP (tbc)
I have just seen yet another article about more money for signage on the Invierno. This one says 1.7 million euros will be split among 14 municipalities. I wonder if this is in addition to the article I (mis)reported a few months ago, or just a follow-up.
Two things:
  • the money is the expected value of a contract for improvements covering 14 municipalities. It reads to me (in translation) that this might be done by one contractor, not the individual municipalities.
  • We have a range of similar small to middle sized public works projects that have begun recently as our federal and state governments have released funding to address the COVID19 downturn. This is classic Keynesian economics to get an economy working again, and does so more directly and more certainly than so called 'trickle-down' measures. This explanation might not be provided in the linked article so far as I can tell, but might be at least part of the reason for these works.
 

Albertagirl

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Frances (2015); Aragones-Frances (2016); VdlP-Sanabres (2017); Madrid-Frances-Invierno (2019)Levante
At least in Valencia, mojon in most often used to mean "turd". All this talk of mojones is giving me juvenile chuckles. As in "the Invierno has lots of mojones". 😂
Well, that's good to know, as my next pilgrimage will be the Levante from Valencia.
 

Pelegrin

Veteran Member
Camino(s) past & future
Primitivo June 2013
SJPP - Logroño June 2014
Ingles July2016
The article says that the works also include "acondicionamiento de tramos en mal estado" Improvement of stretches in bad condition.
 

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